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Keila Ogeko
Posted - 2011.08.25 02:02:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Keila Ogeko on 25/08/2011 02:05:02
Edited by: Keila Ogeko on 25/08/2011 02:04:08
Originally by: bartos100
the first thing i think is needed for smallholdings is something like a GSC that can only be found when the owner is sitting next to it and gets scanned down

<snip>

the basic module would not need fuel but the upgrades would need fuel when actively used (storage being an exception)
the fuel needed would depend on what upgrades are used (ea:robotics for production) but needs to be small in size to make hauling fuel easy


I like this, but you need to be able to dock to it. Here are some other ideas along the same vein:
  • Have a habitat and "owner modules". A character can only have one deployed at a time. That means you can either take part in a habitat or have your own deployed, not both.

  • A habitat would provide a certain amount of slots for expansion (clone vat bay for owners, gang links, etc...) that could help with in-system activities. Could also be manufacturing lines, research modules, etc...

  • Such modules should be on the order of 1 ~ 3%, nothing near what an FC or a Foreman can do with skills and the right modules. Also, you get the better of the activity module or your fleet bonuses, not both.

  • A habitat can be expanded to accomodate additional owners by plugging in "owner modules". Owner modules would expand the capabilities of the habitat. You can only dock up to a habitat that you own or have an owner module installed at, and there must be space in the hanger/maintenance bay.

  • Additional "owner modules" stack with diminishing returns, like Mag Stabs or EANMs.

  • You can only fit owner modules to a habitat owned by someone in your own corp.

  • Certain fitted modules get better (or can only be fit to a habitat) with more owners, with diminishing returns.

  • Personal storage space is never affected by owner modules, each owner only gets a certain amount of space. Corporate space and hanger/maintenance bays are increased following the laws of diminishing returns. Where once you may have been able to fit a BC and two frigates, by the time your five friends are attached you can hold four BCs, a cruiser, and five frigates (or whatever).

  • Habitats should require cheap fuel, requirements dependent on the number of owner modules installed.

  • Fuel should be 1st tier planet products (or similar mineables), something very easy to produce with a few skills.

  • If the habitat is unscannable it should not have an unscannable radius where one could anchor GSCs or park ships in safety.

  • CQ for the habitat, WiS if "owner modules" are installed.

  • The habitat should be about 1000m3 packaged so you could potentially move it with the racial cargo cruiser (or something with a lot of low slots...) Owner modules should be about the same.

XeronXX
Posted - 2011.08.25 06:18:00 - [212]
 

I just want to say I LOVE this idea also. Something like this could definitely get my carebear butt out of high sec and into low/null.

But I would like to switch it up by saying what I would envision being able to do with a small holding, what I would expect and what I would be willing to give to whoever happen to be my "Benevolent Overlord" of the moment. Since that I think would be very helpful in you guys deciding what would be needed.

First and foremost, what keeps me out of low and null right now.

A: Traveling safely to null ( I.E. getting through low sec pirates and greifers with my assests intact.)

B: Even when I got there having markets to use and a safe base of operations.

Now I don't expect anything to be completely safe (Kinda goes against the spirit of Eve) but as a solo player with two alts. While I am more than willing to accept the dangers of mining and ratting, and exploring while doing those.

What I would require to move to null is knowing that where I stored my stuff was safe from greifing, theft, and being blown to hell. I am more than willing to lose ships in action. Logging in to find my home has been obliterated and I have lost everything I own is kind of a game ending experience.

Once I established my little slice of the heavens I would need the ability to interact with my "Benevolent Overlord", ability to manufacture at least ammo and drones, ability to store my ratting ship, my exploration ship, my mining ship, a transport or freighter, and a PvP ship to help my "Benevolent Overlords" if I felt it was in my best interest.

Access to the system stations for markets and replacing bigger items like ships and modules, Refining and Clone services.


What I would be willing to contribute to my "Benevolent Overlords"

Ore, Minerals, and if allowed to really set up shop Manufacturing. Seller of items they are low on in their space, buyer of their goods if I needed them.

Either a tax rate that is payable every downtime, once a month, or just like paying corp taxes. Or another idea would be a station docking fee as long as it was a set fee and not an adjustable to stupidly high amounts.

I would love to see a system in place that allowed our presence to help improve the quality of their system and gave them a reason to want small holders there. And if the system was activity based, my mining, ratting and missioning would help make my presence a net gain.


Things I would need from CCP's Development of the system...

First and foremost a fair eviction system. I am not saying a free ride out, but as you were saying at least a few days to a couple weeks to pack up and get the hell out if my "Benevolent Overlords" became "Arrogant Tyrants". I wouldn't even be asking for a free ride to the gate but the ability to load up my stuff greif free,and then make a run for it and hope to god i can get clear once outside my little safe zone.

Second modules would need to be the size carriable by a cloaky transport, even if I had to make multiple runs to get it all out to my new home. Trying to navigate all of the low sec and however much null sec to get to your new home would make anything but using a cloaky transport really unfeisable.

And third (and this is more a wishlist item) hopefully the ability to customize my own little slice of the heavens. Dead Space pockets would be nice especially if we could erect statues, variable homes for those of us who like playing with space dolly's. Nebulas, asteroids, and gas clouds for decoration. Really don't care if they would be Nex Items, Buildable, Lootable, or a combination of all three.

Anyways I hope this helps and I just want to say again I like the direction this idea is moving.

Dr Cedric
Caldari
Orbital Industry and Research.
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:26:00 - [213]
 

I've tried to keep up with most of the discussion here, but I've probably missed a few posts, so sorry for any repeat ideas here.

Seems like people are liking the idea of having a small "base" in Null sec. However, the idea of getting your base from High sec, through low sec, then into its place in Null sec seems to be a barrier of sorts. Obviously we don't want to eliminate any threat to a player as he is working his way to a new frontier homestead in 0.0, but we also want to encourage that player to actually get there and not lose the majority of the assets they're trying to transport. Earlier in this page I posted my ideaabout a homestead, but have had time to think about a better mechanic for getting your stuff out.

New Module
Harmonic Cyno Field Generator
This item would fit in the hold of a cov-ops frigate or other fast-ish moving small ship. The idea being that you take this module out to your desired destination, anchor it (for self or corp), load it up with some Liquid Ozone, or any other fuel that CCP deems worthy, set a password and head back to high/low sec. The Harmonic Cyno generated would only be able to be found by the homestead ship (or any of the other ship/POS ideas posted) or by a modulized jump drive that can only be fit to industrials. In whichever case, the pilot would need to find their cyno field and then jump to their destination. Perhaps the skill and module cost for just the cyno gen could be in the 10M isk ballpark that Greyscale has been talking about.

This cyno gen would not be powerful enough for any capital ship to use, would be similar to a covert cyno field in that it doesn't pop up on the overview (or maybe it should?) and would only be able to last for a few hours given a full load of fuel.

The password would allow a single person to place the generator, and several people could jump to it. A fuel supply could allow only a certain number of ships to jump.

On a similar note, a series of "buoys" set up in a chain like this could be an idea for the logistics and movement thread...I'll go post there now.

Again, thanks for reading and any constructive criticism/comments.

Ced

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:01:00 - [214]
 

A smallholding corp could use wormholes to go to and from high sec for resupply.

The key is providing a safe location in null sec to set up shop without getting roflstomped.


Lady Zarrina
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:40:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Lady Zarrina on 25/08/2011 20:41:28
I don't think the big powerblocks will ever want small holdings in their space, unless they can make them slaves and **** them with outrageous rents.

But, What if there was a new class of wormhole that promoted small holdings. Nothing much spawns there, but it is ideal for setting up a small little homes. People seem to be infavor of unscannable homes, and in this space these new worms holes could hinder normal scanning somehow. This could be a easy solution and give a easy out for lore lovers as to why you can't be found.

Now since nothing really spawns in this new class of w-space, perhaps we could have multiple openings to high, low and null space. Have to look at ship masses but capitial ships definately should not be able to get through. This allows the small holders to bypass the gates camps (that will stop all small holders from moving to null-sec otherwise). These worm holes would be random, so gate camps would still be useful. If someone wants to goto a specific system they still need to run the gates. This would probably screw up security for the big alliances. I think that is a good thing, but I obviously am biased :) I know every gate gankster will cry in rage, but if you are a real PvP'r all these new targets in your space should more than make up for it.

With a few tweaks to the current w-space you could promote much more travel to low and null-sec. I think the gate camp is the major hinderance to the small unattached solo player in null, and this can get around it?

I know you (CCP) want to promote null-sec trade hubs, gut high-sec of anything useful, modify logistics, etc. all the get people out to null sec, but this simple mechanic might get more out there while not enraging existing player base. I am sure there are many flaws, and I am sure other (really smart) people may have suggested similar mechanics. But I felt like getting my 2 more cents in.

Teya Ihara
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:45:00 - [216]
 

I would personally LOVE a space winnebago style idea. So, following up and maybe expanding a bit on the "Space Winnebago", add a proposal for new 'T3' style homesteading ships. These ships should come in 3 different sizes (I'll outline the smallest in this post), and each has 5 subsystem slots.

In transit they act as a normal ship. A high slot deployment module is required(approx 5-10 minute cycle?), once clicked, the ship emergency warps to a random deep safe (~10AU) from the nearest celestial. After a deployment time, the ship becomes anchored, the pilot is removed to their pod in docking distance of the newly formed homestead. Once deployed the smallest unit is unscannable, while the larger homesteads have increasingly higher sigs. Ships undocked near homestead scannable as normal.

Subsystem slots: Industry Subsystem, Travel Subsystem, Defensive Subsystem, Habitation Subsystem, Electronics Subsystem.

Smallest version idea, approx between frig/cruiser sized:

"Squatter": Capable of supporting 1-3 pilots on medium term or 4+ pilots on short term deployments into hostile space. Squatter ship skill bonus's: +1 allowed docked personell per level (base 0) once deployed, +5% agility per level. Baseline ship maintainence bay large enough to hold approx 5 frigates. Corporate hangar 15,000 M^3 base, Smaller regular cargo bay. With appropriate subsystems may be used as a small gang's raiding base, or home to an individual or very small corp.


Industry Subsystem Ideas:
Manufacturing Provisions: +1 manufacturing slot per level when deployed.
Ship Bay Reconfiguration: Foregoes industrial use for expanded Ship Bay, +20k M^3 ship maintainence bay per level.
Planetary Extraction Optimization: Adds a large bay for planetary command centers and products only, increasing in size with level.
Mineral Extraction Modulators: Adds refining services to the ship at variable effeciency/time based on skill level when deployed only.

Travel Subsystem Ideas:
Interdiction Nullification: As T3's currently.
Rapid Deployment Optimization: 10% bonus to deployment time per level.
Fuel Tank Repurposing: Reduces max velocity and agility while increasing corp hangar size.

Defensive Subsystem Ideas:
Covert Insertion: Allows fitting of covops cloak, as per T3's covert reconfiguration.
Scanner Jamming: Reduces signature radius by 10% per level when deployed (useful for larger homesteader ships which arent inherently non-scannable?)
Fleet Coordination: Allows the use of a single link module, active both in flight and while deployed. If deployed the boosting goes to any corp member in system, over-ridden by any other fleet boosting ship.

Habitation Subsystem Ideas:
Stacked Bunks: Allows docking of one more personell per level.
Medical Vats: Adds medical clone services to the deployed ship.
Inhabitant Location Intereference: While docked pilots do not appear in local chat and cannot themselves see local chat, replaced by station chat, only active when deployed.

Continued:

Renala Dentan
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:47:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Renala Dentan on 25/08/2011 20:47:55
Electronic Subsystem Ideas:
Planetary Interface: Allows the launching of goods from a planet launchpad directly to the ship while deployed.
Onboard scanning: While docked pilots have access to a directional scanner and simple system scanner.
Local Trade Hacking: The ship interfaces with a local outpost (player owned only) while deployed, players can see the local market, and may sell to or post sell orders on the market in that station. Items bought are automatically removed from the deployed homestead and given to the appropriate player in their station. Sell orders are removed if ship is undeployed or re-enforced. Players may not buy or use buy orders with this system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously some may not be appropriate, some could be added etc. My idea here is to require the player to make choices based on ease/safety of getting to a hostile location, versus actual useful abilities once deployed in the desired system. They should be useable as mobile raiding bases or as a home away from home, but not both at once without sacrifices. Multiple of these smaller units could make interesting "colonies". The larger units would be scannable, have some defenses, and obviously allow more people and larger ships to setup temporary or semi-permanent homesteads.

Other considderations, perhaps they should have a fuel bay, and go offline/destroyed if not refueled, should be really easy fuel maybe a few different P1 planetary materials. This keeps them from getting too cluttery. The 2 larger ships should go re-enforced if found and shot, a typical stront bay would work here. This would give time for the owner to un-deploy and move along. The smaller one should have the defense of being non scannable, but be vulnerable if found, or perhaps add a subsystem for the re-enforced mode.

They would be difficult to remove, though with some effort it could be done. For the owner it lets a smart player setup nearly an entire base of operations with all the comforts of a station. For the sov holder the smaller units would not be immediately destroyable if they manage to get in and get deployed, but the larger units which pose more of a threat could be forcably removed.

Some of these thoughts were probably stolen from other posters, just stuff I've read and thought about, it's all about ideas!

Edit: wrong Character^ Teya Ihara

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:05:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 26/08/2011 04:23:01
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ugleb
Quote:
Reward local knowledge

Doing research on and scouting of the area you're running fleets in, and getting a feel for the layout and the local quirks, should give you a small but noticeable advantage over other fleets without this knowledge. This tilts the advantage slightly in favor of the defender against random gangs, but allows aggressors to negate that advantage with some work. Furthermore, using this sort of knowledge makes people feel smart, which in turn makes them enjoy themselves more.


What if EVE had features such as 'nebulas' (nebulae?) that are (semi-?)permanent anomalies that need to be scanned down, but allow for any ships hiding in them to not appear on the scanner? If I knew that there is a nebula in the system I could hide my small gang in it to mask our fleet composition, only to be busted if the other gang knew it was there too.


This is an interesting idea.

Originally by: Dwindlehop
I would note that current game mechanics do not support the nomad lifestyle you seem to want to force on "small combat" alliances. Carriers, motherships, and titans all require a player to log in frequently and in your timezone in order to become a base of operations. We need a nomadic base which can be accessed across all time-zones without a player who must be online constantly. The nomad base shouldn't be tied to any industry/manufacturing like POS are; it should really only be for PvP activities. It could require significant investment, but it would also need the capability to retreat rather than be blown up when a large space alliance gets tired of being raided.



Yup, the base-of-operations issue is a big deal that needs to be looked into.


Ok Team BFF, I think I have your fix for you to at the very least - encourage small holding - it just dawned on me. It would also help logistics (i.e. POS fueling) all sorts of stuff...

Fix POS's so that ALL SIZES are equally defensively resilliant ........ I know - it sounds crazy!

In other words a small POS could equip as much defense (guns, EWAR, hardners, etc) as a LARGE. The catch is - if you want to make some isk or support the alliance you still need the bigger POS's and that takes more fuel obviously. The bigger the POS, the more Industry stuff you can run! This way you have to scale up to make ISK (i.e. increased risk - more fuel and time/mtx. increased reward - more isk made from production).

This helps stop bigger alliances from stomping on smaller corps.
The caveat here would be in null - would it really help small holding? The answer is maybe. You could EASILY Buff POS hitpoints to the point where they are (almost?) indestructable and require an outpost to hold SOV (not POSs for a TCU). Outposts being conquerable they become the real reason to take space (they were REALLY time intensive and isk expensive to build and worth holding).

This always made sense to me anyways. Outposts are the only place in null that allow trade and clones, practically perfect safe asset allocation (which encourages long term residency), perfect refining, etc etc etc. That way POSs are just a cool place to park your stuff in plain sight and maybe scale up to build. Make sense? It doesn't kill POS functionality - just adds and POSs will then play very little role (i.e temporary to gain it only really) buying time for alliances to build or take an Outpost.

The only other minor issue I could see would be small POS's abused to take up all moon locations and prevent someone else from coming in at all...but maybe that can be fixed by getting rid of the one POS per moon thing (which seemed wierd to begin with).

What do you think? I didn't elaborate on all the details because of time/space but think about what it would be like to make small POSs (which are easy to fuel) much harder to destroy. They are in plain sight so residents can't complain too much.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:36:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 26/08/2011 04:39:01
On further thought - let me elaborate more.

Outposts are required investment to have access to higher levels of SOV. You invest the time not only do you get a super cool bonuses and get to put your mark in 0.0 space but you gain access to reward of better plexes (regarding true sec as well obviously). Lower levels of SOV are attained by a "controlling interest" in said solar system(s) and constellation as dictated by the amount of ALLIANCE POS's present until the outpost is built. Seems pretty simple to me.

This leaves POS's to be pretty safe garages for nomads (come and go as you please). Akin to buying a piece of property. Alliances may "run" the town but they don't own it. I own it by buying the house (POS) and setting it up (making my home). You can make me pay taxes (directly through diplo for less harrassment or indirectly by gate camping/camping my POS a lot) but you can't take the home. Eventually too at what point will the big bad alliance really care for a small holding POS that is just there. Camping it will get old after awhile as people that have a home in a POS in someone "elses" town will just figure out it is diminishing rewards. Not to mention they can't really do to much with out risk of running it back to sell in empire or making nice nice and selling at the big alliance outpost by being set blue.

In RE: to PVP - this would encourage skirmishes too I imagine which is good for everyone. But it might lead to other big alliances camping in someone elses for intel and just to harrass. If that is the case we can look at making intel more work related (as you are) and how many ships a POS can "HOLD" as not to encourage a group of MOM's to come park at the new "super safe" POS that is suddenly in another alliances area. That or you just keep the cyno jammer option available so they can never jump them in and if they start to build one they would need a large POS which could still be made to be destructable or make it to where CAP construction requires an OUTPOST. That way big alliances have to have a hub (think utopia planetia).

This to me seems MUCH easier coding wise and logic wise than adding more dynamics like Nomad ships (isn't that an ORCA?) and all that jazz. Just let a home be a home.

This post and the previous belong too in HOME thread as well as SOV but I hope you will see it here.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 09:58:00 - [220]
 

How about giving SOV owners a mechanic to allow other entities in the game to perform certain actions in their space. In return the SOV owner will receive a portion of the proceeds.

SOV owners would simply be able to "sell" these rights on an area, for instance:

X million ISK for access to alliance space for XX HRS/days/weeks
X million ISK for 24hrs ratting time in system XYZ.
X million ISK for 24hrs of mining rights in system XYZ.

Anyone that has paid their taxes will be labeled as a "registered" smallholder, which should show up on the overview so that roaming gangs leave them alone, anyone that has not paid their dues loses that right and becomes fair game.

Ideally such a system would also include rights to set up POS's so that industrial corps or individuals can just live in a nullsec system, pay their dues to whomever happens to have SOV, and will not be at risk of getting kicked out of the systems they are renting simply because they are now an ASSET to the sov holding entity as a source of income.




Chiralos
Merchant Princes
Posted - 2011.08.26 11:35:00 - [221]
 

I think there are 3 different concepts in the smallholding idea that are worth considering separately. They might all go together, but maybe not - maybe they could be used in other contexts.

1) Hidden base (think Hoth/Yavin). I like the idea of a bases that become more findable the bigger they are and the more they are used. Down sides are spammage of lots of them as part of an invasion, as one poster pointed out and greyscale acknowledged. Also, being scanned down is a binary proposition, very all-or-nothing. Perhaps access could work via an acceleration gate, the time it took to activate depending on how "hot" it is (how much it has been used, and possibly hacked by searchers), and by the size of the ship using it. That way you could balance waiting for the gate to cool vs evading/tanking campers. Consistent hacking attacks over several days could eventually crack the gate (see below).

2) Bases with conquest time inversely proportional to size - giving smallholders opportunity to get their stuff out. (Note this doesn't _have_ to be done by making the base hidden. EG Evictors could scan it down, defeat the sentry guns etc, park next to it for a while to offload troops to start a capture timer, with stored stuff being available once the timer goes off. Owners could recapture in order to get access to their stuff again.)

3) Low barrier of entry (corp, sub-corp, or personal) customisable bases. I like the idea of a base with eg just one or two refinery, research or manufacturing slots (and/or a small sov contribution structure). Could install specialised slots, e.g. veldspar refinery, heavy missile factory, Apocalypse factory (sort of permanently bind in a BPO for increased efficiency at the cost of flexibility).

Bases with 2) and 3) are worth pursuing with or without the hidden aspect. I endorse the post by Holy One on page 2 - I think there should be different possible relationships between smallholders and dominant powers (which may or may not have sov)...

You might be using it as an intel base.

You might be just wanting to be left alone.

You might be a parasite, using the protection or upgrades of the dominant power but give nothing back.

You might be a client corp, buying security or ISK or a production cut.

You might be a feudal underling, paying taxes and being expected to contribute to defence.

You might be a fully-fledged alliance member with specialised industrial capacity.

You might be a fully-integrated production arm of an alliance.

And, EVE being what it is, these relationships will be constantly being reconsidered by both parties. Think Lando and Cloud City (... gee the Empire Strikes Back keeps on inspiring, doesn't it ?)

Mitohane
Posted - 2011.08.26 14:24:00 - [222]
 

Here's a thought, allow alliances with high level sov to make the system faction based hi-security systems. Meaning if you have sov 5, or even via a new level of sov upgrades you can create npc security. You have to create the chimera's and cruisers and ships and their fittings, and add them to the sov module by flying in and docking em or storing them just like you would at a pos. Then depending on your standings with the alliance, if your attacked within that system those ships flown by npc's will respond just like concord. If you have bad standings or if you attack someone even though you have good standings same thing happens. It won't be as effective as concord but it offers some automatic protection.

It would better help the security of setting up nullsec trade outposts. That alone would bring out traders, and if you can secure some upgraded mining systems that provide some security for high standing industrialists then you will want them along too to boost up your trading. If alliances could set up one or two of these per their region, and they secure it, they can also tax it. So by purely maintaining the security they are getting free isk out of the deal, plus industrialists selling and providing them with ships and equipment in their own region rather then having to bounce back and forth to jita.

You could still raid just like anything else but it would be more difficult depending on how much effort they put into the security of that system. A long-term campaign could still over-turn that system with large enough fleets, again making it more difficult but not impossible.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.26 14:58:00 - [223]
 

...sorry I don't have more to contribute. The problems facing small holding seem intractable to me right now... but for what it's worth I really like the idea of breaking off a tiny speck in null sec to call my own.

+1

-

Mitohane
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:11:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Mitohane on 26/08/2011 16:21:29
Another thought is, hi-gravity/blackhole systems. Add some systems to 0.0 randomly, and probably closer to low sec as possible so its a closer transition. These systems have the following effects:

-No ships bigger then a certain mass is allowed in system, due to the high amounts of gravity, the larger ships are to unsafe to have in system and would never survive the intense gravity levels. This would rule out maybe battleships and higher, so that even if a fleet came in with cruisers it would make attacking pos's and things a lot harder and not worthwhile

-Limited pilots, there should be a cap of between 100-250 pilots in any given system depending on their size, priority is given to the alliance that holds owns the system through-whatever mechanic. Making it even harder to blob the pos's in there, but not impossible.

-In these systems the belts can change based on what the blackhole sucks towards it from veldspar to other different minerals every so many time periods so that the pilots in that system eventually get access to everything just in phases etc...

Or something along those lines above. I would have to already agree that ore industrial capitol ships especially the rorqual would have to be allowed but add whatever lore or technology to allow that to happen, maybe ones built in system are still allowed but can't cyno into it or something. Just a thought.

-to expand on this a special pos type that specifically designed to counter-act the blackhole gravity could allow it to be built anywhere in system, and protect ships built inside it or just inside it in general. If a rorq for example thrusted out of the bubble far enough it would get pulled in and count as a pod kill...

EdTeach
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:34:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: EdTeach on 26/08/2011 19:54:00



I see a lot of great ideas on this.

Deadspace areas that can be reached by a civilian grade SuperCarrier-type hull would be my choice of combined options for homesteading a system.


"Conestoga" class ORE Supercapitol Mobile Base - Corp-owned only(no pilot offline issues). Almost Titan-sized visually, but that is mostly cargo holds, ship bays and living spaces etc.

Huge, slow(15 m/sec) and .3 au/sec warp speed with 4x a freighter's align time. Can only be moved to a new deadspace area or cyno'd to a new system by proper role holder. This action can only be taken once every 24 hours.

Repair services costs materials instead of isk. The exact mats needed for that job.

Large but finite amount of space for individual/corp items.

POS-like defensive reflexes with much smaller weapons loadout possible.

Large POS-like defensive EHP

Fitting slots that allow installation of different industrial, repair, hanger, etc modules. Highs - weapons, medium slots - indi/science/refining/etc, low slots - power/cap/cpu/cargo.

Not anchored to anything so groups of them can cluster together if desired.

------


"Yurt" class ORE capitol Mobile Base - Dread/Carrier class but Supercarrier visual size for same reasons as above.

Same as above but smaller in all aspects with lesser capabilities. Maybe give this one cloaking capability with special module.


----

Wagons ho!

--

Edit - Maybe have registered members for each Mobile Base. Limited number of clone/hanger slots available depending on ship class. Only those with a reserved slot can dock. External loading bays for resource transfers from other pilots.

---

DheCuir
Caldari
Rock Transport Inc
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:01:00 - [226]
 

First, I REALLY LIKE the idea and it might finally get my carebear butt out of highsec.

Also having read through most of the suggestions I must say that there was a few ideas that I really liked and some of those are partly workable without changing to much of todays game mechanics.

Placing a Homestead (Smallholding)
Someone suggested using the scanner interface that's a great idea. If you look at today's scanner interface and zoom out as much as you can and then try to drag a probe you will find that there's a limit on how far away from the center you can drag it, about 150 AU's. Maybe this could be expanded a little more, say 200 AU

To set up a homestead you would then start with a large "Homestead Probe" (10m3) that could be launched from an Expanded Probe Launcher and placed anywhere insided the limit of the system map. After the "Beacon Prope" has warped to it's location, it would anchor itself and become the framework to build the homestead around. The price of this probe should be the initial cost (~10m) and non-recoverable.

Building a Homestead (Smallholding)
To this framework you should then be able to attach modules using f.ex the fitting screen. Three require'ed modules should be Living Quarters, Hangar and Powerplant and these would have to be fitted within 1 hour of deployment of the framework. Make each of the attachable modules take at least 50m3 of cargo space so f.ex a cov-ops could only set up the basic's. As for the looks of the modules, the idea of using the current NPC deadspace modules sounds like a good idea.

Discovering a Homestead (Smallholding)
A small homestead should be as hard to scan down as a difficult Cosmic Anomaly, but as more module's is attached, its signature should grow, it will still be hard to find in a 150-200AU sphere.

Just my 2 cents worth of idea's ;)


Primus Terminus
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:07:00 - [227]
 

Anything done on a scale that can be probed down in minutes is not going to work. You need much longer intervals to make this successful, or the ability to put in real flying to change this. The small combat section has been touching on this, some good ideas appearing in my opinion.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1565833&page=6

See the ideas towards the bottom of the page.

DheCuir
Caldari
Rock Transport Inc
Posted - 2011.08.27 10:44:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: DheCuir on 27/08/2011 10:46:11
Originally by: Primus Terminus
Anything done on a scale that can be probed down in minutes is not going to work. You need much longer intervals to make this successful, or the ability to put in real flying to change this. The small combat section has been touching on this, some good ideas appearing in my opinion.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1565833&page=6

See the ideas towards the bottom of the page.


I took a look at it, but I think you're a little optemistic about the speed you could probe down something inside a sphere with a radius of 150-200AU. Now I'm no math wiz, but a 32AU probe sphere is about 137.258 au3 and I was a little to quick on my calculations above, a solar system in EVE reaches about 300AU out from the sun (That's how far you can move a Probe away from the sun). So maybe some math wiz could tell us how many probes with a radius of 32AU is needed to cover a sphere of about 300AU radius. (>800?)

Now if you manage to see the homestead'er warp towards his homestead, that would of course help to reduce the amount of time it would take ;)

Crimson11
Unexpected Company
Posted - 2011.08.27 13:37:00 - [229]
 

Hello CCP Greyscale,

I have been reading this thread over the last few days, I wont lie, I haven't read every single post in this thread either, but I've read a lot of it. However, in my opinion this thread is getting off track. To me Smallholdings isnt about a small corp of 1-10 people or even on a corp level, finding new ways to ninja rat/live/ect in someones back yard.... and what I would like to do is try to get the thread to move back to how a small sov holding alliance can survive independently of a large power bloc without getting run over and carve out there small section of null sec space, even if its 1 system, or as big as a constellation. These nomadic ideas for small corps and entities are great, but that isnt holding onto a small little corner of space.

I'd love to hear more about this type of small holdings vs the nomadic style people keep discussing.

Crim

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:24:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 27/08/2011 17:27:06
Originally by: Crimson11
Hello CCP Greyscale,

I have been reading this thread over the last few days, I wont lie, I haven't read every single post in this thread either, but I've read a lot of it. However, in my opinion this thread is getting off track. To me Smallholdings isnt about a small corp of 1-10 people or even on a corp level, finding new ways to ninja rat/live/ect in someones back yard.... and what I would like to do is try to get the thread to move back to how a small sov holding alliance can survive independently of a large power bloc without getting run over and carve out there small section of null sec space, even if its 1 system, or as big as a constellation. These nomadic ideas for small corps and entities are great, but that isnt holding onto a small little corner of space.

I'd love to hear more about this type of small holdings vs the nomadic style people keep discussing.

Crim


I got your answer to that too Crim - see my above post. Make POS defense so high on lower size ones as to prevent POS bashing (boring anways) and make the major focal of large alliances Outposts. You still have POSs performing their roles ...but only Larges can help gain SOV and be used for major industry (takes tweaking modules onlining conditions (CPU/PG) but it is do-able. Again those will be the thing needed to take/make SOV but you can make those vulnerable. So if people want to do a small holding they have to have small/medium POS's (which are limited in PG/CPU and what they can do but they are invulnerable basically). Then if you want to build cap ships Outpost held system is required or a certain amount of SOV in some form from holding a certain amount of Large POSs or outposts, etc..

Small holding alliances will spring up everywhere. They won't have to worry about their small/medium POSs being taken down (they are easy to fuel too). Then the game becomes cat and mouse logistics getting too and from those POS's if someone wants to "run" you off. In other words the POS isn't going anywhere but the people may leave if it gets too intense.

This idea fits ALL of Greyscales Null development ideas in one form or another with minimal loop holes and the ones that do exist can easily be worked out. Active intel becomes much more important. Small scale PVP and camping goes up. Costs for small alliances are low as they will just have to find time to fuel a small or med. POS really and even that can be tweaked. They will have a safe home since null is big enough especially if people are allowed to anchor with the probe idea that someone else mentioned. Then the only way a small holding alliance/corp couldn't get in or out of their POS (just to enjoy safety) would be if the entire sphere around the POS was bubbled and canned (a tactic that is seen as an exploit anyways and wouldn't be allowed).

Now you have life and diplo springing up all over null. Gate camps may be tough but those aren't impossible and if you don't want those - don't park in a high density big alliance area. Even then there are ways around it that aren't game breaking.

Thoughts?

Goose Sokarad
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:08:00 - [231]
 

Poses can stay as they are now.
These bases are going to end up being mini outposts.
I think it would be less work for ccp to use the current outposts,but make them smaller for this then to start messing around with poses.

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.28 18:10:00 - [232]
 

all the ideas that make a smallholding probable are doomed to fail as deep space probes have a range of about 200AU and that makes it easy to locate anything for scanning with normal probes

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.29 06:51:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: bartos100
all the ideas that make a smallholding probable are doomed to fail as deep space probes have a range of about 200AU and that makes it easy to locate anything for scanning with normal probes


You don't even need that aslong the nullsec alliance mentallity doesn't change nothing will happen , even tho i love the idea either a small ninja ratting/mining comples or the opportunity of small alliances to set up their own space without interference from the big ******* alliances . aslong the strenght and size of these alliances isn't reduced nothing will change and all ideas about is will be only ideas and dreams


EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.29 07:18:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: EI Digin on 29/08/2011 07:22:17
Make it easier to set up and fuel a small pos. Make the modules physically smaller, it isn't fun taking a bunch of trips in blockade runners to get a few modules on. If you're sneaky enough you can pile in a SMA/CHA with ships and mods via jump freighters or carriers. It takes a small fleet to take out a small pos already, and killing staging pos are generally not worth the hassle, since you can just put another tower up anywhere. You can upgrade this to a medium or large pos which makes your safe haven easier to defend. You can take out a larger, unprepared fleet by harassing them on a deadly large "deathstar" pos. If you're ambitious enough you can make a play for sovereignty over a few lesser systems in the area, and it goes from there.

Get rid of the notification that someone's setting up a pos in your sovereign space. It makes it easy for the existing powerbloc to shoo you away by destroying your homestead before you get any sort of momentum in your campaign.

Also, if you want to make small entities viable you need to make it so that more nullsec space is viable to live in. More people should want to invade the edges of nullsec space to get more isk than they do in empire/lowsec(lol), but the risk/reward factor for all of this is all out of whack at the moment. Why should I pay for a ~100m pos, along with ~50m a month for pos fuel (rough estimates) to get 5-10m isk an hour doing lower level anomalies and belts, with a chance of losing my ship and my home due to bad luck, when I can get much more running missions in empire? Why should I pay for expensive sov bills when they do nothing but put my name on the map? Why should install an expensive IHub upgrade in my systems to have more anomalies when I'm capped out at how good the anomalies can be, because the only systems I can take without being stomped by the larger sov holding entity in the region on are the ones that have terrible security statuses? There is little point in being a small autonomous entity that lives in sovereign 0.0 if you're interested in making any sort of isk; there isn't even enough to break even without delving into moon mining, which requires a coalition of allies, or having a vast renter system or thousands of corp/alliance members to farm tax income.

If you are more of a masochist you can be a nullsec pirate entity looking for belt ratters and anomaly runners, but there is a chance of getting ganked and losing your investment, and it is more difficult when you are trying to catch people who have a single brain cell. People do this already, and it sort of works because the people they are ganking are absolutely clueless. I know this because my alliance is stocked to the brim with some of the dumbest individuals in this entire dumb game. Invade Fountain today!

If you make it annoying enough for a larger entity to constantly stamp out the fires they have in their space, they will eventually abandon some of the space that isn't worth much to them anyways, leaving a space for an autonomous entity to squeeze in.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.29 11:14:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: EI Digin

Make it easier to set up and fuel a small pos. Make the modules physically smaller, it isn't fun taking a bunch of trips in blockade runners to get a few modules on. If you're sneaky enough you can pile in a SMA/CHA with ships and mods via jump freighters or carriers. It takes a small fleet to take out a small pos already, and killing staging pos are generally not worth the hassle, since you can just put another tower up anywhere. You can upgrade this to a medium or large pos which makes your safe haven easier to defend. You can take out a larger, unprepared fleet by harassing them on a deadly large "deathstar" pos. If you're ambitious enough you can make a play for sovereignty over a few lesser systems in the area, and it goes from there.

Get rid of the notification that someone's setting up a pos in your sovereign space. It makes it easy for the existing powerbloc to shoo you away by destroying your homestead before you get any sort of momentum in your campaign.

Also, if you want to make small entities viable you need to make it so that more nullsec space is viable to live in. More people should want to invade the edges of nullsec space to get more isk than they do in empire/lowsec(lol), but the risk/reward factor for all of this is all out of whack at the moment. Why should I pay for a ~100m pos, along with ~50m a month for pos fuel (rough estimates) to get 5-10m isk an hour doing lower level anomalies and belts, with a chance of losing my ship and my home due to bad luck, when I can get much more running missions in empire? Why should I pay for expensive sov bills when they do nothing but put my name on the map? Why should install an expensive IHub upgrade in my systems to have more anomalies when I'm capped out at how good the anomalies can be, because the only systems I can take without being stomped by the larger sov holding entity in the region on are the ones that have terrible security statuses? There is little point in being a small autonomous entity that lives in sovereign 0.0 if you're interested in making any sort of isk; there isn't even enough to break even without delving into moon mining, which requires a coalition of allies, or having a vast renter system or thousands of corp/alliance members to farm tax income.

If you are more of a masochist you can be a nullsec pirate entity looking for belt ratters and anomaly runners, but there is a chance of getting ganked and losing your investment, and it is more difficult when you are trying to catch people who have a single brain cell. People do this already, and it sort of works because the people they are ganking are absolutely clueless. I know this because my alliance is stocked to the brim with some of the dumbest individuals in this entire dumb game. Invade Fountain today!

If you make it annoying enough for a larger entity to constantly stamp out the fires they have in their space, they will eventually abandon some of the space that isn't worth much to them anyways, leaving a space for an autonomous entity to squeeze in.


Thank you - POS's are the existing mechanic that will work. There is no forgetting about POSs. Any small holding that relies on stealth will not work because that is SOV breaking in BIG ways (think alliance wars) and any system that relies on probing will just get probed down. Make it in plain site- MAKE IT A POS. That's what they were designed for as El Digin pointed out. A member of Test would know this. They setup and built with good numbers right near empire. She also brought up another good point which is the hassle/investment. I thought about going out to the far reaches of 0.0 (via WH) but it was just too much of a pain.

IF you buff small/med pos's defensive but limit their industry (make larges vulnerable but the only ones with certain indy advantages) like I suggested then you will see small holding life SPRING UP OVER NIGHT.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:45:00 - [236]
 

I don't think ANY alliance will suffer "renegade" POS's in their systems, and will routinely clear them out.

If you want to use POS's for smallholding there needs to be some distinct advantage to the SOV owners for allowing them in their space.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.29 13:48:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 29/08/2011 13:50:00
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 29/08/2011 13:48:49
edit: stupid forum. Lost my original post and now Im just not going to bother posting it again.

edit x2: Ok the thing was I about to say was: remember that whatever an individual can use, alliances can use also. This is why many of the proposed items and ships and stuff don't really work.

Tro Aele
Posted - 2011.08.29 15:45:00 - [238]
 

I have spent my time in Eve wanting and thinking about a smallholding mechanism that would work. I haven't come up with much, but here are my thoughts:

The primary problem as I see it is minimizing the cost / threat to or compensating the local powers for the risk of leaving smallholders alone. Until you can design around a hard-core pvp'er alliance's natural instinct to blow everything up that might be a risk (or even just score points on a killboard) smallholding is not tenable. Of course, you don't need a solution that makes all alliances welcome squatters, but you have to design in enough window for a good proportion of them to find it neutral if not useful to have people around.

There are two general avenues: increasing the benefits and reducing the costs.

On the benefits side, smallholders could serve as either a tax base or a supply chain. In either case, it might be necessary to disaggregate "docking at stations" station services. Perhaps a "front desk" where smallholders can refine minerals for a tax, sell bulk minerals and ice for a posted station price, or even sell manufactured goods to corporate buy orders. You would want to avoid access to cloning, refitting or other services (including possibly the sale of combat ships) which represent a strategic risk.

Another tax angle might be a ransom / tax-farming mechanism whereby local powers go "tax collecting" on smallholders infrastructure and ships, where a pos setting and a ship button allow smallholders to pay off local powers that come knocking without destruction. A pvp player in need of cash could farm the area smallholders for half an hour and come up with a reasonable sum. Smallholders would have to keep their "ransom coffers" filled. It sounds clunky but with enough design polish it might help.

On the cost/risk reduction side, perhaps a mechanism whereby local powers could set standings by ship type (combat vs. industrial). A local power could flag as not-quite-blue all cargo and mining ships for neutral pilots, but flag as red threatening ships. One could go further and "outlaw" pvp modules, so that anything with a cloak, scrambler or a jammer is red. It would require much more granularity in standings, but it's a thought.

The stand-out problem is of course intel. It's such a hard problem I don't think there is a perfect solution, but here is my thought: no local channel for smallholders. Without a cloak and no local, smallholders would be of less intel value than otherwise. Such a move would require a smallholder to flag himself as such to turn off his local channel, so a mechanism would have to be created for that, but again design might make this less clunky.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.29 16:14:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
I don't think ANY alliance will suffer "renegade" POS's in their systems, and will routinely clear them out.

If you want to use POS's for smallholding there needs to be some distinct advantage to the SOV owners for allowing them in their space.


They clear out your cheap little tower? Drop a new one. A large entity isn't going to keep sending fleets over to down a small staging POS because frankly, it's a waste of time to keep reinforcing and killing a small POS that just serves as a meeting point or a safe haven. No matter how large or small it is, killing POSes is not a fun activity at all, and you will burn out having to kill the same POS put up by the same people in the same spot timed for your weakest timezone. The same goes for hunting SBU's and TCU's.

There is an advantage to have smaller entities on the edges of a large sovholder's empire. They serve as buffer areas, areas that can be lost in a war, because the larger entity has all their combat ships and isk making methods in their core regions. But in order for a smaller alliance to get this space, they have to join a coalition which removes their ability to make autonomous decisions, they will have to have people show up to coalition fleets, or pay a rental fee.

A good example of this is the old NC's Geminate, or Pure Blind, which were packed full of small alliances, but didn't have much say in the greater NC's direction, and weren't allowed access to a bountiful resource located in those regions, the tech moons.

It's also easier to get smaller entities that are friendly with you to deal with an invasion of other smaller entities, because the space large sovholding entities think is worthless means the world to a small allied entity who makes that space their home. Morale is THE deciding factor in current long-term warfare, and large entities aren't going to waste their time and effort on what they think is trash.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:18:00 - [240]
 

I think the problem with using the current POS mechanic is that they still provide a safe spot in the system for enemies to potentially use.

Anything that an alliance can readily find that isnt owned by them, theyre going to go to any length to remove.

The only solution is to make something that is difficult to find.


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