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Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:29:00 - [301]
 

El Digin, first off I read your post, but I strongly disagree.

The whole idea behind smallholdings is for small groups, sneaking around, not a large group who can have a bomber fleet on standby.

A POS, being a visitble static structure, will be found, and found quickly. Whatever bigger pain you make it to kill just means that the SOV holder will just deploy a bigger blob to take it out. And once a POS is in reinforce, getting it all out is very difficult, simpy because a POS and all it's accompanying stuff isn't mobile enough.
Also, a POS doesn't offer personal space, as you said, it's a corp thing, not a single person's thing. a small corp would also not have access to the kind of stuff to keep a POS deep in null sec operational, simply because they don't have the logistic muscle to move all that fuel for even a small pos, unless they store a LOT of it in the POS when they take their stealth fleet there.
And the more they need to store in the POS, the worse it is moving it.
That means a big investment for a small corp, and putting it in a static place that once found(the easy part), will get blown up without them being able to do anything about it.

Hence I believe that a smallholding's main defense should be stealth, not firepower, or EHP.
Firepower and EHP are the very thing that a big sov holding alliance has ample resources to deal with. a 10-20man corp sneaking about in a SOV holder's unclaimed backyard doesn't have the muscle to stand up to a SOV holder, the only thing that can delay the sov holder from taking them out is mobility and stealth. Qualities a pos of any size simpy doesn't have.

A POS also doesn't offer a way out, once the blob comes knocking. They might be able to get their stuff out, even through a ****cage, but then what? where are they goign to go? they can't take their entire pos with them, simply because all those modules are too much space to easily move, along with all their other belongings. There is no exit strategy on a POS.

Also, as I said, there is no 'personal space' for pilots to store their own stuff in a POS. Everything is at corp level.
Then, there's the part that sitting in space is not the same as docking up. There is no 'home' feel to a POS.

Finally, the POS interface simply sucks for doing anything. Being able to dock up and do your industry, even if it's just small scale stuff for your own needs, like ammo etc. it's a pain to do this in a POS, as you don't have any room to put your spare mats and bits and bobs, your BPO's, and what have you in a secure enviroment.

Hence on last page I proposed the (long) timer for a sov holder to find a smallholding by going into that system and establishing a beachhead there. The idea here is, the SOV holders are big, clunky, and have the advantage of being able to field enough firepower to wipe out a smallholding when they find it.
The smallholders on the other hand have limited resources, but higher mobility, so they can try and evade 'The Man' while doing their thing.
The bottomline of that is, that for a SOV holder to evict a smallholder from their space should be more than a simple blob the structure with a 100 man capital fleet, which is exactly what will happen to smallholders with your POS proposal.

A good paralel would be in Star Trek. To be precise, the Maquis. They evaded both the federation and the Cardassians. Both are excellent examples of 'Sov holders', with the maquis being the smallholder. They hid in places like the badlands, so they couldn't be found. IMHO this is what smallholders should be doing. Hiding, moving around, sneaking, surgical strikes if the SOV holders get close, and taking as much as they can from the bits and pieces of stuff that the SOV holder doesn't pickup.



Claire Raynor
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:03:00 - [302]
 

I really love the idea of this - but I don't see it as happening. You can't just fly into null sec can you? - I don't think you can - and the 10M ISK - well you'd need a cov-ops ship to stand a chance surely?

I've never been to Null sec - so I just don't know - and I'm not prepared to risk my implants - but if it's anything like getting past Rancer or Amamake - then no thanks. So. . . you are going to have a small-holding but to get to it you have to get into *whatever* alliance's space via one of their gate camps - then - how's it going to work?

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:45:00 - [303]
 

As a 'professional blockade runner', I can tell you that avoiding gatecamps and getting through someone's space isn't all that hard.
I've done it many times, going through several parts of nullsec to get where I want to be, with hostiles trying to kill me left and right.
Yes, you'll be needing things like covert ops ships and blockade runners. ( to bring the smallholding out, I would think a cov-ops/SB with a covert cyno, a blackops, and 1 or 2 blockade runners to bring in the stuff. )

Claire Raynor
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:37:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: Claire Raynor on 05/09/2011 19:54:55
Xearal you've kinda confirmed what I expected, or what I thought was the case, which is nice. Covert ops, blockade runners,covert cyno, a blackops!!!!, etc. So - Yeah - that - erm - 10 mil ISK stake to open this up for, "Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK)" is looking a bit - err - how much is a Covert Ops Battleship again? I just want a bit of perspective on that.

So this small holding thing. It's not gonna be someone whos just scr4ped together 10million ISK and are gonna settle down with their Rifter is it? It's real end game stuff - the sort of thing you can only do after having played the game for 2 years - I mean tech 2 battleships????

Or are they going to make gate camps not work somehow? I mean - What are you going to fly once you're out there? How are you going to get your Mammoth out there or your Hulk or even a cruiser? Or am I just totally off the mark here - which is very likely - and it turns out gate camps are mainly a Low Sec thing?

And if there is Local in null sec. Well for this to work - there can't be - and I know a lot of people have already said that too.

I just can't see how - (although through some mechanic they might make it so that the Small Holding is awkward and not worth it to destroy in itself) - the person who's small holding it is can survive. I mean they'll just be hunted down and killed by the alliance whom they are tresspassing on. And it will be done for no other reason than PvP - because it's fun to hunt someone down.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.09.05 23:37:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Xearal
Hence on last page I proposed the (long) timer for a sov holder to find a smallholding by going into that system and establishing a beachhead there. The idea here is, the SOV holders are big, clunky, and have the advantage of being able to field enough firepower to wipe out a smallholding when they find it.
The smallholders on the other hand have limited resources, but higher mobility, so they can try and evade 'The Man' while doing their thing.
The bottomline of that is, that for a SOV holder to evict a smallholder from their space should be more than a simple blob the structure with a 100 man capital fleet, which is exactly what will happen to smallholders with your POS proposal.

A good paralel would be in Star Trek. To be precise, the Maquis. They evaded both the federation and the Cardassians. Both are excellent examples of 'Sov holders', with the maquis being the smallholder. They hid in places like the badlands, so they couldn't be found. IMHO this is what smallholders should be doing. Hiding, moving around, sneaking, surgical strikes if the SOV holders get close, and taking as much as they can from the bits and pieces of stuff that the SOV holder doesn't pickup.

QFT

Originally by: Claire Raynor
Xearal you've kinda confirmed what I expected, or what I thought was the case, which is nice. Covert ops, blockade runners,covert cyno, a blackops!!!!, etc. So - Yeah - that - erm - 10 mil ISK stake to open this up for, "Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK)" is looking a bit - err - how much is a Covert Ops Battleship again? I just want a bit of perspective on that.

So this small holding thing. It's not gonna be someone whos just scr4ped together 10million ISK and are gonna settle down with their Rifter is it? It's real end game stuff - the sort of thing you can only do after having played the game for 2 years - I mean tech 2 battleships????


well it is supposed to be small groups but if you want to go out to hostile 0.0 in a rifter and play hide and seek, theres nothing stopping you. I used to think like you, that 90% of 0.0 is bubbled with gate camps and supercarriers etc etc, but thats simply not the case.

A blockade runner with a scout can easily get deep into 0.0 and the amarr one can carry cruisers . . . all it takes is a little forethought and planning.

The Prorator is 75,000,000 not all that much for any one person, but even less for a small group, and I who have no prerequsite skills and specced away from perception/willpower can train for one in 30 days.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.09.06 01:57:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Sigras
TL;DR
All of Eve is either single player or huge alliances, there is no need for small holdings because there is nothing for them to do

I completely agree with you on this point.

Originally by: Xearal

The whole idea behind smallholdings is for small groups, sneaking around, not a large group who can have a bomber fleet on standby.


You don't need very many numbers in bombers to make a large impact on killboards, if you can bomb well. 20-30 people in cheap stealth bombers could easily make a ~100 man fleet run for cover if you use them properly. Perhaps I could have stated, "have a bomber fleet waiting for them when the tower comes out of reinforce" and been more correct in my post.

Originally by: Xearal

a small corp would also not have access to the kind of stuff to keep a POS deep in null sec operational, simply because they don't have the logistic muscle to move all that fuel for even a small pos, unless they store a LOT of it in the POS when they take their stealth fleet there.


I agree that POS should be easier to set up, mods take up too much space, POS fuel can be looked at too. A small POS should be able to be set up with one or two blockade runners.

Originally by: Xearal

Also, a POS doesn't offer personal space, as you said, it's a corp thing, not a single person's thing. And the more they need to store in the POS, the worse it is moving it.

...

Finally, the POS interface simply sucks for doing anything. Being able to dock up and do your industry, even if it's just small scale stuff for your own needs, like ammo etc. it's a pain to do this in a POS, as you don't have any room to put your spare mats and bits and bobs, your BPO's, and what have you in a secure enviroment.


POS aren't supposed to scale well. You will have problems putting lots of people in a POS, or having a POS do multiple things. If you want to segment things easier, you can put up multiple POS and play with roles and passwords and such, or put up a larger POS if you want more services, or to make it more difficult to attack because you can fit many guns on it.

Originally by: Xearal

That means a big investment for a small corp, and putting it in a static place that once found(the easy part), will get blown up without them being able to do anything about it.
...
A POS also doesn't offer a way out, once the blob comes knocking. They might be able to get their stuff out, even through a ****cage, but then what? where are they goign to go? There is no exit strategy on a POS.


Don't fly, or put up, or leave lying around what you can't afford to lose. A small POS on its own isn't very expensive, and if you're not quick or active enough to get your stuff out, say goodbye.

Originally by: Xearal

A POS, being a visitble static structure, will be found, and found quickly.
...
The bottomline of that is, that for a SOV holder to evict a smallholder from their space should be more than a simple blob the structure with a 100 man capital fleet, which is exactly what will happen to smallholders with your POS proposal.


Yeah, so you lose a POS. Big deal. Hopefully, your small holding entity has earned enough isk to put up another one, and not much loss will have been incurred. Again, you won't be truly evicted by the death of your staging POS, but by the loss of your confidence in making isk there, either by dying repeatedly or due to the fact that you can earn more elsewhere.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.06 07:07:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: EI Digin

You don't need very many numbers in bombers to make a large impact on killboards, if you can bomb well. 20-30 people in cheap stealth bombers could easily make a ~100 man fleet run for cover if you use them properly. Perhaps I could have stated, "have a bomber fleet waiting for them when the tower comes out of reinforce" and been more correct in my post.



You have a point there, 10 bombers with bombs can be devastating to a large fleet. Still it's not going to do anything to a capital blob that comes knocking on your door.

Originally by: EI Digin

POS aren't supposed to scale well. You will have problems putting lots of people in a POS, or having a POS do multiple things. If you want to segment things easier, you can put up multiple POS and play with roles and passwords and such, or put up a larger POS if you want more services, or to make it more difficult to attack because you can fit many guns on it.


Point is, for a small group to work nicely in someone's backyard, personal space is usefull. A POS doesn't offer that. Also people will know exactly what you're capable of doing in said POS, because all the mods are visible to anyone that looks. The whole idea I think of a smallholding is that the big sov holder doesn't know what this small group is doing and what they are capable off.

Originally by: EI Digin

Don't fly, or put up, or leave lying around what you can't afford to lose. A small POS on its own isn't very expensive, and if you're not quick or active enough to get your stuff out, say goodbye.


But once a POS is reinforced, all mods are offline, so you can't get your stuff out of them, hence there is no way to get your stuff once the POS has been found.

Originally by: EI Digin

Yeah, so you lose a POS. Big deal. Hopefully, your small holding entity has earned enough isk to put up another one, and not much loss will have been incurred. Again, you won't be truly evicted by the death of your staging POS, but by the loss of your confidence in making isk there, either by dying repeatedly or due to the fact that you can earn more elsewhere.


So you put up a new small POS say 2-3 jumps further one. which will be discovered how fast? probably before you even onlined the whole thing properly.
As I said, a POS doesn't offer enough mobility. As such a stealthy smallholding that requires the SOV holder to take action in their unused systems to find it. ( ie, put up a POS with some scanning equipment or something, that is VISIBLE to the smallholders and they can take action on it )

A small POS will be an easy target for any big sov holder, as such, there's no way a small group can operate in someone's backyard when the enemy can easily scout them out, see what capabilities they have, and take them down.
Remove that ability, and make it a pain in the arse to deal with a smallholding, by giving them the advantage of easy mobility, versus the big sov holder, and you will create an envirment in which a small group has the advantage over the big group, because the big group can't bring it's guns to bear on their base, as such, they have to go and hunt down each and every one of those pilots and evict them 'the hard way'.
THIS imho is the core idea behind a smallholding.


Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.06 07:17:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Claire Raynor
Edited by: Claire Raynor on 05/09/2011 19:54:55
Xearal you've kinda confirmed what I expected, or what I thought was the case, which is nice. Covert ops, blockade runners,covert cyno, a blackops!!!!, etc. So - Yeah - that - erm - 10 mil ISK stake to open this up for, "Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK)" is looking a bit - err - how much is a Covert Ops Battleship again? I just want a bit of perspective on that.

So this small holding thing. It's not gonna be someone whos just scr4ped together 10million ISK and are gonna settle down with their Rifter is it? It's real end game stuff - the sort of thing you can only do after having played the game for 2 years - I mean tech 2 battleships????

Or are they going to make gate camps not work somehow? I mean - What are you going to fly once you're out there? How are you going to get your Mammoth out there or your Hulk or even a cruiser? Or am I just totally off the mark here - which is very likely - and it turns out gate camps are mainly a Low Sec thing?

And if there is Local in null sec. Well for this to work - there can't be - and I know a lot of people have already said that too.

I just can't see how - (although through some mechanic they might make it so that the Small Holding is awkward and not worth it to destroy in itself) - the person who's small holding it is can survive. I mean they'll just be hunted down and killed by the alliance whom they are tresspassing on. And it will be done for no other reason than PvP - because it's fun to hunt someone down.



Actually, the blackops bridge is how I would do it, however, a lone blockade runner can run deep into null on their own quite well. and yes I know, that's more than the 10M as well. But that would more be on the corp/group level thing.
For the lone rifter pilot, if the 1-man smallholding thing is say, 500m3 and costs 10M, it's possible to bring that out to null without a blockade runner, using a regular tech 1 frigate. It wouldn't be easy, it would be hard, it would be dangerous, and it would be very risky ( so not quite something you'd want to do if you just sc****d together 10M, then again, I made 100M a week in high sec as a 1 week old noob, so I don't think that would be that much of a problem really )

The biggest challenge for it I would say is not the money, but the player skills required to get out there. Knowing how to avoid camps, and what to do if you encounter one. As for getting a hulk out there, if you can afford a hulk, you can afford a Blockade runner, a blockade runner can hold a hulk easily, including all the trimmings. I do this a lot myself, though with a covetor, when I want to do a spot of low sec mining. I stuff it into my BR, fly where I want to go mine, mine a bit, pack up, and get out, then use my BR trips to haul my minerals/ore out.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:40:00 - [309]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 06/09/2011 08:40:47
All of this, all the ideas even the bad ones only work when there is absolutely no local.

If you give people (alliances) a chance to upgrade space to have local, no smallholdings will be able to survive.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:55:00 - [310]
 

Yes. local and the 'howmany npcs killed' info etc. that is currently available should be removed, at least from unclaimed systems.
As for allowing people to 'reactivate' local in their space, I don't really see this as a problem. Their space would be where they hold sov. Sure they would be able to see evil smallholders flying around in systems they have sov ( and upgraded enough to enable local again ), but they'd have to claim sov and do this in EVERY system to make it impossible for a smallholder to set up shop.
Any system where there's no sov claimed would not have this problem, and would be perfect for a smallholder to set up shop, which is kinda the idea for smallholding anyway. Operate in the gaps in sov space, the fringes, the deadzones.
If you read one of my earlier posts, I included this. ( I'll forgive you if you didn't ;) )
here's the TL;DR.
- Smallholding is unscannable by normal means, requires a POS with a scanner array to find it.
- If there's a POS with a scanner array, the smallholder will see a timer until his holding is found.
- The SOV holder will only get messages when a smallholding is found.
- The length timer on the smallholding is dependent on the size of the smallholding( bigger = easier to find, so less time needed) and the SOV level of the system, so setting up shop in a fully colonised system would not be a good idea, but setting up shop in an unclaimed system would be.

The end result of this would be that smallholders will always be sitting on the fringes of a SOV empire, where their grip is less than in their core systems.
Expanding their sov empire would make the sov holder even bigger, requiring more people to keep space, and make profit from the sov claiming. If they don't, gaps would appear in their sov, where there's againg unclaimed fringes for smallholders to set up.
However, expanding would also mean those fringes simply move outwards, possibly colliding with another SOV empire, who would not be too happy to see another SOV holder get close to their borders. Conflict arises, and in the whole fray, a smallholder can profit, either by just enjoying the space while everyone fights left and right, or hiring themselves out / allying with one or even both of the big SOV empires, and do smalltime sting operations aimed at sabotage and terror, exactly the thing that smallholders would be geared towards to escape the wrath of a SOV holder in the first place. Stealth and Mobility.

Prince Stroud
Posted - 2011.09.06 11:26:00 - [311]
 

As long as the 're-onlined' local that sov. holders seem to want is tied directly to their activity indicies within a system then it shouldn't be an issue to give it to them. By this though, I mean the requirement should be to maintain at least an index of 3-4 across strategic, military and industrial so that way if an alliance wants a potential smallholder like myself out of their prime ratting/industrial/home systems then fair enough since they claimed the space and make use of it, on the other hand their fringe systems that may see little to no activity outside an onlined TCU might just be where I establish my little hidey-hole.

This way if an alliance wants to abolish smallholders hiding in their space, then their ability to do so becomes directly proportional to the effort they put into using the systems themselves. While I fully understand that alliances will expect some benefits from officially holding the space, and rightly so due to the effort needed, smallholders will be too easily ferreted out if the only requirement to 're-online' local is a TCU and a passive detection module in the system... If an alliance doesn't want some smallholding nomads coming and using their space, stealing their rats and mining their ores, then they should need to go and take back the rats and ores actively.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.06 11:50:00 - [312]
 

I agree on that, but that would be more of a discussion on intel gathering, not the smallholdings themselves.
For smallholders to be able to sneak about and set up camp in the fringes of a SOV empire, getting rid of most of the current means on intel would be a definite requirement.

Dasquirrel715
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.09.08 17:50:00 - [313]
 

I've skimmed this thread, reading the occasional post and all the dev posts and here is what I think the devs are looking for in terms of feedback for the system.

Ok so for small holding there are a few considerations to look at:

FOR THE SMALLHOLDER:

Do I want to do this?

Whatever it is you may do, and my personal favorite was the nomadic ship that sets up in a hidden area, this is the primary question. Are there huge monetary rewards to be had? Or are the risks too great.

Where Should I Go?

This is another important question, should the smallholder set up in NPC space where there are no sov holders? Or should they set up in an area with sov holders where they can use upgraded space and possibly be more safe?

How Do I Get In?

This is a crucial idea, because pubbies running dozens of gates to get to their desired system sounds like a recipe for tears(or joy). It should use a jump mechanic, but because this is meant for younger players a cyno alt should not be necessary (as that requires running gates) It should use a mechanic described in the lore, jumping without a cyno. It's a one time thing and only as a way in.

Should I Make Myself Known?

This is also an important question, because if, say, the smallholder is mining they may want to make themselves known and strike an agreement for safety. But if the smallholder is there for black ops hot dropping for instance, they would obviously not want to make themselves known.

How Do I Get Out?
This is also an important question, and it should work the same way you got in, you can jump out without needing a cyno. Or, you could call for a cyno, from Concorde, for instance.

FOR THE SOV HOLDER:

Why Should I Let This Pubbie Stay?

Well this is the ace in the hole question. The simple solution is to have, for every "registered" smallholder you have in a constellation/system/whatever, you get some small scale-able benefit. The benefit can't be too much per smallholder, otherwise it risks abuse by the sov holding alliance. But if the benefit is tangible then the sov holding alliances will have some incentive to let them stay.

Why Shouldn't I Just Greif Them?

Well, its like this, if an alliance has a reputation for greifing it's smallholders, then smallholders won't come and live in their space and the sov holders will not receive a benefit.

Now how do I envision it?

CONT.

Dasquirrel715
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.09.08 17:53:00 - [314]
 

CONT. From above.

-Some ship, maybe just a module for a carrier that lets them jump to a specific system without a cyno and then spawns a deadspace area for them that the carrier/whatever jumps into and then sets up. This ship should require some fuel to use and be cheap enough that younger players can participate but expensive enough that the sov holding alliances wont just fill every system in their space with alts.
-The smallholders then have a choice. They should be able to, through some interface (not talking to an alliance diplo), set up an agreement that gives them some sort of protected status in exchange for rent. Like 10mill per month depending on the capacity of the "nomad ship" Not only is this free isk for the sov holder but when a smallholder registers like this, they also provide some benefit to the system, like decreased fuel usage or something, but not enough of a difference that the large alliances wouldn't just create thousands of alt corps just to fill their systems. However as a caveat, when they register their "nomad" ship shows up on the solar system overview, can be directly warped to and they could be evicted with a certain amount of notice.
-On the otherhand, we have a small black ops gang using a smallholding ship as a mobile base, for docking, refueling, etc. They may not want to notify the sov holders of their presence, and in so doing, DO NOT have that protection, but the only thing that can be scanned out is the acceleration gate into their pocket (very difficult to scan out), and only certain classes of ship could warp in. And they could even have modules on the base, such as a cloaking bubble etc. Not only would this give black ops a bigger role again but it would be more sneakysneaky.


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