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blankseplocked Nullsec design goals feedback: Exploration
 
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DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.08.25 09:24:00 - [91]
 

Just a few thoughts:


  1. We need more exploration content, a lot more! not only combat sites, but other (new stuff) as well. Make hacking and archeology realy professions.

  2. As mentioned before in this topic we need more exploration ships. (cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship) These ships should trade a combat bonus for an exploration bonus. They should all have relatively small signatures vs their normal ship class. (For example: an exploration battlecruiser should have a sig of only 90% of that of a normal battlecruiser



Meditril
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:06:00 - [92]
 

Basically what we need is:

  • Random generated exploration sites, no site should be like the other. Sometimes a site should have just one pocket, sometimes it should consists out of 5 pockets.

  • Less fighting on exploration sites but more things like this:

    • Sneak up with cloaky ships: 1st room is easy and has not many rats. 2nd room has very hard rats but the task is to cloak up and sneak between them to the gate. 3rd room is the room where you do your hacking or whatever stuff.

    • Use of remote hull repper: Imagine you have to repair an ancient gate or ship or what so ever to be able to use it or get information or stuff from it.

    • Maps... why don't we just find an old map leading us to a treasure? Maybe you have to go via several systems and one map leads to another which then leads to the treasure.

    • Mini-games: to activate something you need to get x and put it into y and then you need z to put it into a and b. This might include mining, ratting, salvaging, or simply buying of x and z



  • Better or special exploration ships. This could be for example a domain for T3-Frigates, which I like to call "Tactical Frigates". Tactical in this context should mean that you are able to switch modules in space, slowly but doable (e.g. by offline module, switch module, wait for cap to recharge, online module and proceed with next module if needed). This would allow to use frigates for this job even though the number of slots is limited on them. You would simply refit your ship in a safe spot for the purpose you want to do next. Sounds funny and cool to me.


Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:32:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Markus Reese on 26/08/2011 21:36:43
I completely concur with the ideas of the different setups for exploration. Especially with T3 that abolutely excel and are extremely fun to use during exploration. The one thing of course is that most explorers like to solo or just run small groups. Personally, I feel that the systems for pve discussed in previous devblogs would greatly accelerate new content for exploration.

First off, the biggest turnoff from exploration is the scanning. Make missions escalate more, but be longer between the overseers or however to balance out the loot/reward. also mix up the exploration site types during the chain, allow a person to hack the comms to clear out the npcs in next room or let the person fight. The incursion system already has stuff like this, so is more than plausible.

The epic chain system can also be of value. You get intel of something being kept locked away somewhere while being moved, but on the other hand a high priority target is able to be taken out. Epic chain events to send us around a security system to different regions instead of just always moving to null.

Lastly, how about industry exploration. I recommend: Deviant art link to my old ship concept from the ship design contest.


Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:28:00 - [94]
 

Put the blasted exploration sites in DEEP space so it takes at least the deployment of deep space probes first then the combat probes afterwards.

Make them actually WORK the exploration site and the rewards, OR the gank of going after someone on that goal.

Furthermore, bots come in, drop one core scanner probe, get a positive hit on all complexes, and in they go.



Sinooko
Gallente
The Night Wardens
Viro Mors Non Est
Posted - 2011.08.29 08:35:00 - [95]
 

I approve this message!

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.29 12:20:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 29/08/2011 12:25:35

Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Put the blasted exploration sites in DEEP space so it takes at least the deployment of deep space probes first then the combat probes afterwards.

Make them actually WORK the exploration site and the rewards, OR the gank of going after someone on that goal.

Furthermore, bots come in, drop one core scanner probe, get a positive hit on all complexes, and in they go.




THIS THIS THIS. Thank you for posting - in all my ideas I forgot to mention this. Quit having all sites around celestials. It makes exploring way too predictable.

I think you meant Deep Space - THEN - Core probes though man. :) You don't find sites with combat. :)

ALSO...
Originally by: DeBingJos
Just a few thoughts:


  1. We need more exploration content, a lot more! not only combat sites, but other (new stuff) as well. Make hacking and archeology realy professions.

  2. As mentioned before in this topic we need more exploration ships. (cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship) These ships should trade a combat bonus for an exploration bonus. They should all have relatively small signatures vs their normal ship class. (For example: an exploration battlecruiser should have a sig of only 90% of that of a normal battlecruiser





This has always been a beef of mine in exploration. Why can't we have some crusier, BC, and BS class ships that are exploration bonuses instead of fighting. Enough to get the job done as we all know "exploration sites HAVE TO HAVE combat" ::ROLLS EYES:: Again - lets do this AND put in some exploration sites with mini puzzle/logic games. :) How cool would that be.

ALSO...

Originally by: Meditril
Basically what we need is:

  • Random generated exploration sites, no site should be like the other. Sometimes a site should have just one pocket, sometimes it should consists out of 5 pockets.

  • Less fighting on exploration sites but more things like this:

    • Sneak up with cloaky ships: 1st room is easy and has not many rats. 2nd room has very hard rats but the task is to cloak up and sneak between them to the gate. 3rd room is the room where you do your hacking or whatever stuff.

    • Use of remote hull repper: Imagine you have to repair an ancient gate or ship or what so ever to be able to use it or get information or stuff from it.

    • Maps... why don't we just find an old map leading us to a treasure? Maybe you have to go via several systems and one map leads to another which then leads to the treasure.

    • Mini-games: to activate something you need to get x and put it into y and then you need z to put it into a and b. This might include mining, ratting, salvaging, or simply buying of x and z



  • Better or special exploration ships. This could be for example a domain for T3-Frigates, which I like to call "Tactical Frigates". Tactical in this context should mean that you are able to switch modules in space, slowly but doable (e.g. by offline module, switch module, wait for cap to recharge, online module and proceed with next module if needed). This would allow to use frigates for this job even though the number of slots is limited on them. You would simply refit your ship in a safe spot for the purpose you want to do next. Sounds funny and cool to me.




Another great posting! I want!!! (Especially thought the remote hull rep idea was cool and the "hot swap" modules for exploration ship was a unique approach albeit complicated.

Crexa
Star Mandate
Posted - 2011.08.29 23:43:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Crexa on 29/08/2011 23:49:18
Jove Space

If and when Jove space becomes accessible, I hope and pray its thru wormhole space. Completely random whether you connect or not, and never permanent. I would love to visit a system find a wh C3 that leads to a series of C5s and 6s and then WOW!! a connection to Jove space!!!

It would be like sailing the seas in the 1600-1800s. You never knew if you would make it to the Americas or if a storm or pirates would take you.

St Mio
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:40:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Raw Matters
Edited by: Raw Matters on 23/08/2011 20:23:27
(...)
- All valuable sites are gone about 30 minutes after downtime, in high, low and 0.0.
(...)


Cosmic signatures (almost) immediately respawn in the same region once they're finished.

You can test this yourself by scanning all the systems in a (preferably small Smile)region, finishing a site, and scanning all the systems again.

Umbra Vipera
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:00:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Umbra Vipera on 30/08/2011 18:10:56
I've always felt exploration would be better if the profession were more relevant to the community, less combat oriented, and frankly more demanding. Therefore I am truly excited about the potential for some changes and really like several of the ideas previously mentioned in this discussion. There is a huge potential for this profession and the thoughts I present here are based on the “sandbox” concept of EVE. In other words, what I think could be done to improve exploration game wide and make the profession a truly important piece of Eve across the board. I realize that this discussion started based on null sec improvements, but exploration could go well beyond that.

With that said, I believe that using current game mechanics with a few twists sprinkled in, exploration could prove to be worth every second of skill training and be accomplished in pretty quick order (I think).

So how would I do it? I introduce to you my version of UNCHARTED SPACE.

TL;DR version (a.k.a. summary)
Let us take worm holes, add some randomization, toss in some sovereignty mechanics, and let's see what we get. The concept is pretty basic. A high skilled player has the potential to isolate a stable (or semi-stable as in days, weeks or months) wormhole. Upon further investigation of the wormhole, if it is determined that the wormhole is unexplored, the explorer has the ability to “claim” the system for his or her corporation. Since this is literally uncharted space, you see nothing on your overview in terms of warp to points. You can maybe see some planets and the sun on your screen, but you have zero points of reference to go anywhere. Therefore, we require more probing of the system to get around. Once we have a couple of points to maneuver (bookmarks) we can then claim that system. Once claimed, no other probing is allowed within that system by any other corporation. Perhaps there could be a mechanic where that could then be opened up to the entire alliance. Regardless, we now have some real exploration to do.

Umbra Vipera
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:03:00 - [100]
 

Specifics
We continue the use of the current sites (Radar, Magnetometric, Ladar, Gravimetric, and Unknowns). These sites would still spawn randomly throughout EVE as they do now. I would hope that some tweaking of the sites, which has already been mentioned here, would make them a bit less repetitive, less combat oriented, and more challenging but I digress. The uncharted space wormholes would be added to the Unknown content. The space inside these uncharted systems would be considered similar to 0.0 space but these “hidden” gems could be found throughout high, low, and null sec regions. Each region having varying levels of chance to appear.

The first step is making these wormholes hard to scan down. They should require high skill levels, the use of deep space probes, a high number of probes, potentially the use of multiple probe types (either alone or simultaneously), and require some time and effort on the part of the pilot to get a warpable bookmark. As an example, we find a site using our deep space probes. We pin it down to say 60-80% signal strength at the smallest scan resolution that the deep space probes are capable of. We are now required to pull those probes and use different ones capable of much greater detail but three or four probes aren't gonna cut. This signature is small...we need six probes to lock on (picking numbers at random here...just go with the flow).

Eventually we will get our wormhole scanned to 100%. Now you would think because of all that hard work, you would know what you have but that's not the case. There would be a chance, say 15-20% (again...random numbers here) that the wormhole you locked on is nothing more than a typical wormhole. In our example however you got some uncharted space.

Now we need some basic rules at this point.
1)The entry point to the system would need to be out of directional scanner range of any celestial. Realism would indicate that simple directional scans could calculate the distance to a planet, moon, astroid belt, etc. The idea is that once you have entered the system you can't navigate inside without exploring first.
2)A corporation can only lay claim to a limited number of systems at any given time. The idea is that these systems will hopefully contain at least one valuable resource in sufficient quantity to make it worth the effort. For example maybe it has one large belt that contains several high end ores that replenishes over the life of the wormhole (days, weeks, months). Once the lifespan of the wormhole, has ended the resource(s) in that uncharted system goes away to never respawn again.
3)To continue to hold a claim, the claim holding corporation MUST MAINTAIN that claim. In order to facilitate such a requirement, a specialized POS (of ORE origin maybe?) could be employed which would require refueling.
4)Nothing is guaranteed.

Umbra Vipera
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:06:00 - [101]
 

Specifics (cont.)

In order to claim the system the explorer/corporation would have to locate a moon so that our specialized POS could be deployed. Standard timers for deployment and bringing the POS online would apply. If there aren't any moons in the system, the system cannot be claimed however any resources that are found could still be harvested. Along those same lines, the capsuleer trying to claim the system would also have to have the proper anchoring rights with the corp.

Now our specialized POS would accomplish two things that normal POSs can not. The first is that it would act as a probe jammer preventing “hostile” corporations from finding the various resources and as a centralized data center for the corporation. As the corporation's explorers chart the various celestials, the POS would make that data available to the other corp members. So for example you find a nice astroid belt on your probe scans. Once there is a 100% lock on the belt, the other corporation members within that system can now see and warp to that belt by using the overview.

So as we chart the various celestials we begin to discover IF there are any worthwhile resources within the system. We will also discover if the system is already inhabited by NPCs or vacant. In my mind, uncharted space would indicate that a system hasn't been explored previously by “known” NPCs but again, I digress. Now the fun begins.

Are the belts worth anything? Who has that 'roid scanner?
What do the planetary resources look like?
Any nice moons?
What about more wormholes?
Any ladar, radar, mag, or grav sites around?
So on and so forth.

Umbra Vipera
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:09:00 - [102]
 

Specifics (cont.)

Now some mechanics would have to be added for the benefit of the “hostile” corporations. I mean come on...there has to be risk. So lets say your corporation has claimed a decent system for your needs. Along comes another explorer who finds your “hidden system”. By the way...the greater the number of trips through that wormhole, the easier it becomes to find said wormhole. Anyway...this new explorer lands in your claimed system. That big shiny POS that keeps people from probing and declares your claim, does show up rather nicely on our visitor's overview. All those jamming signals are kind of hard to not lock on to. Anyway, this will either make our visitor say “blah” and leave or give them a big fat spot to warp to. Our little adventurer makes a decision and warps to your POS which will put the capsuleer within D-SCAN range of other celestials. Our visitor will be required to manually book mark those celestials, but if our visitor does, he/she can now begin to “explore” your space and learn to navigate it using his/her bookmarks. So our friend can now bring in some buddies and they can decide if they want to harass you into leaving the system or potentially start shooting your POS in an attempt to take your claim.

So my idea of UNCHARTED SPACE should achieve all the goals listed in the blog.

Goals from the blog:
1)Mystery - randomization of the system, the system's resources, and the presence or lack of any NPC inhabitants
2)Not just combat - this particular setup would not necessarily require any combat
3)Nomadic option – the potential for locating other wormholes leading to other uncharted space along with a modified POS to use as a “home away from home”
4)Chance-based income – randomization of the system, the system resources, and the presence or lack of any NPC inhabitants
5)Dynamic and challenging – what could be more challenging than literally charting an entire system and setting up shop either solo or with your corp mates?

As an added bonus, we would also turn the explorer profession into a well regarded and valued profession in EVE as corporations could turn to these people to find valuable “hidden” resources.

Stan Durden
Posted - 2011.08.31 07:56:00 - [103]
 

Just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet...

Exploration should be able to support more then one or two explorers per region. Perhaps give short spawn cycles to sites so that they are always changing and it is worthwhile to rescan the systems even after someone else went through.

Maybe do some kinds of sites that need expert directional scanning skills to find.

Make magnometric sites worth doing (in all secs).

I would like to find blueprints to more kool stuff then just t2 rigs I won't use, (Last I checked the bpc is almost worthless, its the salvage cost that is reflected in t2 rig price.) ... or those t2 production thingamajiggers. (I did indy enough to know I am not an indy guy, so sue me.) I want something that I can build with lvl 1 indy and basic minerals that goes bang.

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:54:00 - [104]
 

Introduce neural artefact fragments. Thought neural so that as soon as you grab the fragment, it is automatically injected, maybe a new element to the neural interface. This prevents a new market (although maybe an option to have inject optional to introduce new marker content) and ensures the pilots still keep the hard earned item in the event of being popped

As and when you find one, it adds to the jigsaw. Having piece 2 means the next random piece you hit will be # 3, so you don’t have a jumble of all the others except the last piece. When complete you get a destination system, a BM to a WH/ancient gate and the ability for the completed neural pattern to act as the opening key. Add new content as the end reward. Neural key is wiped once used

Tier the neural interface pieces based on HS, low, nul and WH class. Make the end reward for each neural key sec/class value scaled

Obviously the collection is random, but ensure a wide scattered gathering range for each sec/class so you really are forced to explore everywhere

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:06:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Stan Durden
Just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet...

Exploration should be able to support more then one or two explorers per region. Perhaps give short spawn cycles to sites so that they are always changing and it is worthwhile to rescan the systems even after someone else went through.

Maybe do some kinds of sites that need expert directional scanning skills to find.

Make magnometric sites worth doing (in all secs).


I would like to find blueprints to more kool stuff then just t2 rigs I won't use, (Last I checked the bpc is almost worthless, its the salvage cost that is reflected in t2 rig price.) ... or those t2 production thingamajiggers. (I did indy enough to know I am not an indy guy, so sue me.) I want something that I can build with lvl 1 indy and basic minerals that goes bang.


Stan - I agree 100% and no one has mentioned it yet. Mag sites have never been really good to me except in WH's. I think the Dev's let those fall by the way side and they NEED love. Like you say - T2 BPC drops for a "large gravity capacitor" WTF??

This is the sort of lame drops I see too. Maybe they could drop a good t2 ship BPC or faction gun. Anything would be better.

Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
Posted - 2011.09.08 04:51:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 08/09/2011 06:26:59

I have given this some thought.

Exploration should be about navigating, searching, examining and putting (lots of) pieces of information together.

Given the current set of tools, it's not easy to come up with a way of exploration that actually lets a player perform those tasks. While it's nice to be able to "explore" (that is: scan) for sites and find them within a certain amount of time - namely log(distance) - you can't really make an exploration experience out of that. It is my opinion that making something feel like exploration cannot be done by the site content, or the remoteness (distance) of the site. It is all about how you find the sites/rewards.

Here are my main suggestions:

  • Finding something should be based on gathered (navigational) information: information/rumors from in-game witnesses about events occurred, like a direction or distance from a planet or star. Incomplete scan results. Sketched (top-view) maps of solar systems, with an X on it. Those sorts of things. In order for a reward to be found, several pieces of information should be needed, which should be pieced together by the player, not by the game.

  • A fundamental (but simple and effective) game tool is needed: being able to detect a site only when your probes are closer than a certain distance*. This is critical: it enables exploration based on clues/information and hard work/thinking. Otherwise everybody can find it without the clues, by scanning only.

In other words: the initial placement of your probes is based on information gathering and reasoning. The actual finding of the site is based on scanning skills.

I don't think the change for the game is a lot of work to implement (development wise) and won't have a major impact on the other game play, but it gives a good foundation to work upon for those that want to create real exploration challenges for us players.

Those are my 2 cents.

Regards,

Miss Moonwych

* Not being able to detect a site means it not becoming visible at all in your scan results, even with long range probes. This is different from detecting it with with extremely low signal strength (which can always be achieved now). Example: such a site would only be detectable if a probe is within 1AU of it (for short range and long range probes). If the site is 15 AU away from any celestial body, then it's almost impossible to find by chance (about 1:3000 when you systematically go through the 15 AU volume), but with enough clues/information and cleverness you can actually find it, and it is that what makes it a rewarding exploration experience. Smile


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