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blankseplocked Nullsec design goals feedback: Exploration
 
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Banden Lokemir
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:23:00 - [61]
 

+1 YES nomading is keeeewl.

This is something ihve allready been up to in wormhole space and it is quite possible, allthough a little scary at times. I would have 3 characters in a system, one with a scanner frig so i could scan for threats/plex/WHs, one with a industrial that act kinda like a big moving storage for ammo/loot and ofc a tengu on the third char for the shooting. The main problem is protection, I would have cloaks on both the frig and indy, and only log the tengu char in for when there was something to shot.

It would be really cool if there were a "mini tower" structure that could be thrown up with moments notice and act as a temporary base of operation without having to worry about supplying a bunch of different fuels and having to setup a bunch of turrets and structures(it might use only 1 kind of fuel, gasp!). It would have only the bare essentials, refitting and storage, it doesnt need anything fancy imo. I am very ambivalent with the idea of having a ship that does this, because while it would be awesome, it would also mean that someone would have to have a char that "just sits there" and what if the dude with the ship is offline for extended periods? That doesnt work well. A structure like this would be pretty vulnerable so there would need to be something protecting it, a shield or some kind of cloak or possibly some ability that makes it unscannable. If nomading was really supported in the game design I would totally do it, there are vast reaches of space out there that are just being held and not really used. I think small nomad entities would do quite well in these backwaters.


Tinak Genry
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:40:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Bloodpetal

"I just wish CCP would not make all the zones look exactly the same."

To him, the zones meant the solar systems. To me, the "EVE zone" represents multiple systems and multiple locations that are the landscape of moving around. But there is validity to the concept in that why does to many people a single solar system feel so "empty" or so "simple".

How can you make each system feel more expansive, than simple 1 star, 8 planets, 23 moons, 3 stargates, and 1 station?



This. When I ran for CSM one of the things I talked about was making places seem different and unique. Places that in each system that felt different enough that players would *want* to explore and see.

One of the easy ways would be to dim the ambient light from the systems star as you move further away, deeper into the outer system. It would make the solar systems feel like they had "depth".

Another way would be to have NPC structures or random events occur in orbit around a planet. Not an exploration site, but maybe an NPC terraforming fleet, an NPC colony fleet, scientific survey, etc. If the PC has good standing with the faction maybe they can help out for LP, more if they have the proper skills (I.e. scientific survey would need good planetary interaction skills.)

I also *love* the idea of 'deep cluster exploration gates'. Old stargates left over from the initial colonization of the EVE cluster. Science skills like hacking and archeology to get them running for only a limited time. Then jumping through runs the risk of shutting the whole thing down (they are old and buggy now, enter at your own risk). Seeing the EVE cluster from many parsecs away, feeling lonely out in deep space...but the pay offs are worth it.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

Tinak

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:42:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 18/08/2011 13:43:56
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Merasa Tro
I believe the high-null routes were nerfed as the powerblocs didnt like the idea of people sneaking in suddenly.

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Drastically increase the spawn rate of K-space to K-space wormholes, in particular null-null and null-high. This would give explorers something very worthwhile to look for.



We never touched any of the original ratios AFAIK.


I was going to mention/suggest this too but didn't have a lot of experience to back it up. As an explorer I think there are not enough K to K spawns in game personally. 0.0 residents though may not like this feature for other reasons though more than what already happens. Although it could tie in nicely to the small-holding idea. I have often dreamt of packing up our corp bags and going WAY far out in o.o through a K wormhole so we could be independent and just OUT there. No way to hold on to it though as even sparsely populated areas like the drone regions, the locals will hunt you down like dogs.


Theorizing further though - it MAY BE a great way to balance out nerfing jump bridges. People can then send someone in to light a cyno for a JF or just move their goods back to hi-sec. Logistics then takes on a really cool importance and not just mundane or overused.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:46:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Bloodpetal on 18/08/2011 19:08:21


Exploration Site Brokering


You should create a place for explorers to register their findings in a database or in a "Contract" system to be sold to other players.

Basically, explorers can put up their anamolies they find for sale instead of running them. They can become professional explores providing a service for other people to use. This is already done to some small degree between private parties - but creating an alliance or region wide tool to sell thes would be very valuable to enhancing the explorer profession and providing "instant" content to those who don't wish to explore.

In order to do this you need a few things provided in the tool : Identifying the value of the site, building in the location of the site, and making it easy to determine the accuracy of the site in order to trust the person to buy it from them.


Imagine this :

You're an explorer, you log in and you go start exploring your system. You find 3 Cosmic Signatures and identify them. You go to your Alliance Database of Cosmic Signatures and you put the location of those 2 signatures up for sale for 10 million ISK each, but you know one is very valuable and you put it up for 100 million.

Now, you put the time in to find the sites, but you don't want to run them, you're going to sell them to your alliance mates, and now when THEY log on they don't actually have to go and spend the time to do the sites. Instead, they grab their ship and have instant content.


The ability for one player to provide instant content to another player would go a long way to removing the sensation that "man, it takes a lot of time to make my money". Now, they just go in, check the DB, find the site, go out and do it, and the explorer makes his money too.

I'm sure you can point out where there are issues with the idea as simple as it is - if you tell them what system, then they'll just go find it instead of buying it from you if it's really valuable. There's a matter of trust there, and the loopholes that can be used and in some ways should be allowed to be used, but only within a certain degree, otherwise you end up with the Escrow System from pre-Contracts era.


--------------


I think making a new tool would be the best way to do it... but, you could create a specific type of contract to handle it as well, and just use the contract market itself.


The Cosmic Signature Contract would be have to be unique, and not an Item Exchange for a bookmark itself. It should contain some basic information on the site that can't be scammed or faked, but allow some leeway for "Creativity" in the value.

However, I personally think a whole new tool would be the best way to do it. But, maybe do contracts to start and then plan to expand it into a specific tool.

Using the "Exploration Journal" would be an interesting way to deposit that information directly into the buyers account, rather than creating a bookmark for them. So, let's say the following happens :

Explorer warps to location, he goes to his Exploration Journal and presses a "Generate System Coordinates" button. The button creates an entry for that site in his journal, he right clicks that journal to "Create Signature Contract". He gets a contract pop up with the necessary information - he can modify the level of details on certain things. Once that site is registered, noone else can come in and do the same sale for that location. The purchaser goes to the contracts market, finds the site, and then buys it - the 'item' appears in his exploration journal and he can go do it.




Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:28:00 - [65]
 

Adding complexity to sites would be awesome.
The concept of having deep space sites, which are far away from celestial objects would be good for this. allowing regular exploratin near celestials, and stranger places further out.
Some ideas would be:
- Randomised combat sites, as mentioned. No longer just X rooms with this and htis in them, but instead of a linear way, randomised places that go around in different directions, rooms that connect to more than 1 other room, with possibly multiple objectives or ways to get to the objective.
( hacking a locked gate and sneaking past in a cloaked ship, then come in for a surprise visit, thus not allowing the 'defenders' to react and take away their booty, or catch them off guard. instead of just blowing the **** out of everything, which would give them time to get their valuables out )

- blurring the lines between different sites.
Combat sites sometimes requiring skills such as hacking, or archeology, or even science skills to get at certain objectives. A gate to the treasure room that can only be hacked, finding an ancient wreck somewhere in the plex that the rats were researchign requiring archeology and/or science skills to make something off. Maybe even hacking to get 'their' information about it to allow access.

Archeology sites that not just have 'dead wrecks' but where you could find some ancient computer core that is still functioning, requiring you to hack into it to get some ancient goodies, Hacking sites where something has 'gone terribly wrong', maybe some wormhole was opened up and sleepers came out, so suddenly instead of the regular rats, you're up against sleepers. Or maybe some computer system overloaded, requiring you to repair it first with some nanite paste, a remote repper or even a salvager or analyser to get the remaining bits, which you can then try to put together again somewhere else.

- More 'weird but cool useable stuff'. Things like maybe meta-X rigs in archeology sites. finding an ancient vessel of strange design, which is totally different from regular ships, so because it's broken, you can't use it, but you might be able to use some parts of it, aka finding a rig which is different from the rigs normally built, possibly better/less penalites/calibration than regular rigs, or giving bonusses that normal rigs don't offer. These would not be manufacturable but only found. ( Hey, I just found an ancient ship with a biological hull, if I rig my ship with this stuff, I can have my armour and hull repair over time by themselves, cool! )
Maybe even some totally unique modules or other things you can put up on your ship, or take to empire and sell there for a nice pile of money. ( Hey, this ancient cloning system is still in working order, now if only I had a ship to carry the damn thing to empire, I'd be able to make a mint!)

- More escalation aka treasure hunting!
Aside from the regular escalations, maybe allow for 'treasure maps' to be found in say hacking or archeology sites. Finding the location of some ancient whatever that the (previous) owners of the site had. This could be some kind of item, which could be sold 'as is' in the contract market, but once opened/activated would give you an escaltion type log entry to some interesting place where there is booty to be had.

Exploration should be far far more random. Not like the current 'going somewhere, where thousands have gone before'. Every exploration trip should be unique in some way compared to others, so no one will find the exact same place twice in the game, because every time a place is found, it's randomised.

Another good option would be to make for player choices during the whole process. For instance with escalations, they now always go to one place. What if you enter some plex, kill the place, but some people escape ( aka escalation ), but instead of being one group, they split up into 2 or more, with different signatures/things in each. ( maybe one even being a 'red herring' )

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.19 15:51:00 - [66]
 

Im not sure why there's a distinction between 'within 5 AU and 10 AU) of a celestial? Do players really feel they are in 'deep space' 10AU away from a planet?? I'd suggest not but I could be mistaken.

Deep space, in my view, would be an absence of those familiar hat pegs. For example a system devoid of planets (or even stars). You might liken this to beyond our immediate solar system (earth, mars, jupiter etc) would be 'deep space').

Mystery might be evoked by the absence of the normal and familiar - "why are there no planets?". Creating the 'unknown' means there's a need to distance oneself from the 'known'. Your home is not very mysterious because it is well known to you, a empty house miles from anywhere has mystery because its is disassociated from the familiar.

At its heart 'exploration' means travel through the 'unknown'.

C.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.19 16:45:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Im not sure why there's a distinction between 'within 5 AU and 10 AU) of a celestial? Do players really feel they are in 'deep space' 10AU away from a planet?? I'd suggest not but I could be mistaken.

Deep space, in my view, would be an absence of those familiar hat pegs. For example a system devoid of planets (or even stars). You might liken this to beyond our immediate solar system (earth, mars, jupiter etc) would be 'deep space').

Mystery might be evoked by the absence of the normal and familiar - "why are there no planets?". Creating the 'unknown' means there's a need to distance oneself from the 'known'. Your home is not very mysterious because it is well known to you, a empty house miles from anywhere has mystery because its is disassociated from the familiar.

At its heart 'exploration' means travel through the 'unknown'.

C.




THIS! So true! ^

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.19 17:30:00 - [68]
 

I imagined deep space as being beyond the last celestial but CCP removed that to prevent hiding capitals in deep space.

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.19 18:49:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
Edited by: Janos Saal on 15/08/2011 14:57:27
My big problem with exploration is that a frigate with bonuses to probing and lots of mids for codebreakers, analyzers etc... seems tailor made for the task, but can't actually fight its way through the sites to get the goodies.
There should obviously be challenges, but (as the proposal says) they should challenge you to think, not press F1-F8 and wait 5 minutes until the red boxes disappear.
I'm imagining archaeology as some kind of detective mission, where you visit various sites, gathering clues from each which lead you to the final location, where you may be tested on your knowledge gained throughout the adventure. Maybe you have to placate some guardian of the ruins by demonstrating your knowledge of his cultre's history (which you learned from tablet fragments gathered elsewhere), or maybe you have to piece together a map which shows the only safe route through some ancient defensive system that leads to the treasure vault.
In these scenarios the ship you fly should be less important 9although having higher grade scanners and analyzers should make things easier). The limiting factor should come from having to learn and remember bits of ever lore. Some people won't be interested in that, but then they can run missions.



This This This
I enjoy flying my buzzard all over the place but there's always that one rat that spawns and forces me to get away. Should be more knowledge/skill and less combat orientated.

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:22:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Gogela
Edited by: Gogela on 15/08/2011 19:51:17
Originally by: Nikita Alterana
+1, it seems pretty damn awesome as ideas go.

I'm going to link this its an old topic on exploration I started a while back, its a lot of big, huge, probably unworkable concepts, but I think there are quite a few gems in there, and a lot of it could be used in differing ways.




Im just going to say that the ideas he just posted are BRILLIANT!!! these are the kind of places we need to really draw more people to the explorer sub career.

I also am happy to see that you are considering adding more content that you can do solo and in a non combat ship as well. (or as close to non combat as possible) the way i think this can be facilitated is that the non combat sites can be the first sites that you find. allowing people to hop around cleaning up some low to medium value gear from hacking or archeology. where the real money can come in though is when you find a site that links to another some how, a hack that points towards a central hub of the system you just hacked into, ruins with a jump bridge or warp gate needing some of your capacitor to jump through. then you could start adding in a few small rats here and there making it so that you need a ship with the module you used to access the site, but can fit some defensive and offensive gear. and of course you can have the rare no combat at all but still nets a high reward sites for the "big payday" for those not wanting to fit weapons and just explore.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.20 04:30:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Dinta Zembo
Originally by: Janos Saal
Edited by: Janos Saal on 15/08/2011 14:57:27
My big problem with exploration is that a frigate with bonuses to probing and lots of mids for codebreakers, analyzers etc... seems tailor made for the task, but can't actually fight its way through the sites to get the goodies.
There should obviously be challenges, but (as the proposal says) they should challenge you to think, not press F1-F8 and wait 5 minutes until the red boxes disappear.
I'm imagining archaeology as some kind of detective mission, where you visit various sites, gathering clues from each which lead you to the final location, where you may be tested on your knowledge gained throughout the adventure. Maybe you have to placate some guardian of the ruins by demonstrating your knowledge of his cultre's history (which you learned from tablet fragments gathered elsewhere), or maybe you have to piece together a map which shows the only safe route through some ancient defensive system that leads to the treasure vault.
In these scenarios the ship you fly should be less important 9although having higher grade scanners and analyzers should make things easier). The limiting factor should come from having to learn and remember bits of ever lore. Some people won't be interested in that, but then they can run missions.



This This This
I enjoy flying my buzzard all over the place but there's always that one rat that spawns and forces me to get away. Should be more knowledge/skill and less combat orientated.


SECONDED!

Abramul
Gallente
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.20 14:17:00 - [72]
 

Quote:
For further discussion. "Deep space" exploration (ie, more than 10AU from celestials) should be geared towards mystery, problem-solving and the unknown, while "near space" exploration (less than 5AU from celestials) focuses more on delivering reliable content.

I would favor having "deep space" be out of D-scan range, and possibly being out of core probe range unless you move your probes off planets.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.20 22:37:00 - [73]
 

i'd love to see probing sites where u collect data from using hacking and analysing mod to get coordinates of a solar system that is outside the "known & wormspace" nullsec regions.

then using a new capital sized experimental cyno'less jump capable ship u can jump to a star in that solar system.

then the jump ship can deploy into a destructible star gate (T1 version max range 10 light years, T2 version max 20 light years) to link that system to known null sec. (requires 2x stargate ships one at each end) once both gate ships is deployed into gate mode both pods are ejected.
players could carve out new regions themselves which can and will be dynamic cos if other entities destroy these stargates they can cut off whole constellations forcing a changing region map

the ships have no offensive weapons but have a huge HP and 50% resists with 2x reinforced timers to allow for the owners to defend/repair them when in deployed mode.

they would also need fuel to maintain them.

if one of the two star gate ships is destroyed the other one gets destroyed too as the forces from the wormhole collapsing destroys the second ship at the other end.

then the system must be "found again" using the hacking/analysing method, but the new start point (where one of the 2 stargate ships) would be deployed would be relocated to a different system.

Keith F
Caldari
United ALT Forces
Posted - 2011.08.21 04:16:00 - [74]
 

how about a new type of exploration "WH",that is
A:Temporary ONLY in existence for X hours. timer displayed same as a aggresion timer.

B:NO planets show until a thorough scan Using deep space probes to find and locate them.

C:once Planets found std probes can be deployed and sites identified, that Cloaky ships can run.
these sites could include grav site of 1-2 rare types only.

D: as you enter these sites there is no warp to available only covert cyno travel for fellow gang members, thus allowing Black-ops bridging only (maybe a new black-ops module that allows bridging of NON covert-ops fitted ships)but only into/out of these "WH's". you would then need to be able to light a covert cyno in ALL space, but in hisec only ships exiting these new "WH's" can use them.
Once these sites EXPIRE All ships are AUTO popped back out

E; These New "WH's" have same satus as the entrance ie hisec have local,low sec have delayed local and 00, NO Local
And maybe as you enter these sites you are assigned local, so if more that one entrance and other entrance is from 00 the hi sec finders can see if a 00 finder enters but not other way around unless they talk, and if a lowsec enters you get a unnamed char in local only way you get to see who enters ID wise is if you "see" them on overview

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.21 07:36:00 - [75]
 

The problem with these feedback discussions is that they all hinge off each other. Nomadic Lifestyle sounds good, but if you are a small nomadic gang of 10 players, all its going to take is 1 supercap attacking your nomadic traveling base and theres nothing you can do to defend it besides calling in more people. The only way to be nomadic in EVE today is to own a c3 or c5 with a static null-sec, and just harass the locals who 9 times out of 10 just pos up. This is tied directly into the intel discussion. Even if you get an *ideal* null -null hole where theres active players, they immediately know that theres a wormhole in system.

Exploration does need a bit more randomness and usefulness, but nomadic lifestyle will depend on what they do with local and intel.

Helena Khan
Posted - 2011.08.21 08:45:00 - [76]
 

Still think there needs to be a travel component on the 10AU+ idea. The point about the supercaps is absolutely valid, however if it takes time to get out into deep space, out of the reach of immediate assistance and where cynos are not an instant I win or an I can get out button, it should hopefully force people to think twice before committing very valuable assets. Possibly a boundary outside which they don't work?

Another thought - probes work well on a "micro" scale. What about something more macro? Something extra solar in scale to do two things:

1/. Analyze a system for potential anomalies
2/. Provide an indication of a region or area to place the probes to further scan an anomaly out

Hmmmm. Thinking out loud again for a moment, an enhanced onboard D-type scan? What about the possibility of triangulation?

If we need to scan a cube 1000AU across probes just aren't going to cut it. Mind you, travelling a 1000 AU at 1.5AU/s will take a while, so perhaps just a cyno boundary?... and with that amount of space to hide in, combat probes aren't really going to be that much use... :)

Kind of difficult to tell what kind of scope 10AU+ is being considered (if at all)... and without propagating the whole deep safe/supercap parking issue again either :(

Server load as a limitation on volume of space? Or has that been cracked?

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.21 08:51:00 - [77]
 

I'd have no problems with keeping capitals out of "deep space" entirely.

A lot of how any of this works though very much depends on other changes - like to intel and local, or navigation (i.e. if we're looking at the domain beyond a system, it'd be high-time that arbitrary warp navigation become possible).

Mindnut
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:45:00 - [78]
 

I haven't really been to 0.0 in a long time. The last time I was there i found a magneto-site that gave a lot of salvage and nice bounty's. I was happy with it.

The biggest problem that I always had with exploration is the low number of different sites. There should be a lot more of them. Like mission-running it gets boring once they start repeating.

Imho, this is a type of content that should be expanded (by adding more sites) in every expansion that comes out. Repeatedness works agains the whole idea of exploration. It's just no fun when you know what your're up against and what the reward will be. It's too much like mission-running.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.22 11:13:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Im not sure why there's a distinction between 'within 5 AU and 10 AU) of a celestial? Do players really feel they are in 'deep space' 10AU away from a planet?? I'd suggest not but I could be mistaken.

Deep space, in my view, would be an absence of those familiar hat pegs. For example a system devoid of planets (or even stars). You might liken this to beyond our immediate solar system (earth, mars, jupiter etc) would be 'deep space').

Mystery might be evoked by the absence of the normal and familiar - "why are there no planets?". Creating the 'unknown' means there's a need to distance oneself from the 'known'. Your home is not very mysterious because it is well known to you, a empty house miles from anywhere has mystery because its is disassociated from the familiar.

At its heart 'exploration' means travel through the 'unknown'.

C.



The main reason for the range distinction is it should make it easy for players to select the kind of content they want without artificial mechanisms. If it's a long way out, it's "mystery" content, if it's close in it's the current push button receive bacon variety. Creating an actual sense of the unknown would require a lot of additional work and would probably be a whole expansion's worth of content (we could call it Apocrypha).

Geormike Deninard
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:45:00 - [80]
 

* Mystery: Indeed. Exploration needs some more mystery, sinister, nail-biting "action". Some factors include: Mysterious items which you dont know hell about what you can do with them, so you have to try things, like research them, shoot them, use them with invention etc.

Something that can also help is: Say youre doing an Angel Sanctum, and say 1/50 chances, a weird ship spawns called like "Angel Cyno Lighter", you procceed to kill it. It can warp out, so scrams will be usefull, unless you can alpha it. Say it drops a cyno lighter and a map, pointing you to a nearby system. You go there, scan the system down and you find a "Angel Component Assembly Site". After you defeat numerous and difficult rats, a tower uncloaks. You proceed to shoot it, and every 50% less HP it spawns multiple BS rats. Once the tower explodes, an angel cyno lighter drops, some capital constuction parts, and theres a 3% chance of a cloak tower BP might appear as well (Instead of reinforced mode it goes into cloak mode, can be anchored at deadspace). Now you equip the cyno lighter, and fire it for one of your capitals to pass through. Instead of your ships however, a weird gigantic ships jumps through, and immiedatly starts firing at you. The ship has 3 Xlagre projectille turrets. Lads i present you the Angel Dreadnaught! Bounty: 27,500,000 ISK, takes the firepower of 6 or more BSes to drop down. You manage to bring it down, when some of your carriers jump through the cyno. The ship that lighted the cyno is doomed. You were lucky, and it dropped its own BPC and 1x Domination Xlarge Proj Gun!

This scenario above is one of the hundreds that might happen. This IMO adds more mystery to the game and more nailbiting action of "whats gonna happen now?!"

* Rewards: As mentioned above, the rewards will be gigantic. For cosmic signatures, the introduction of new items and loot to be grabbed by scanners in radar/magnetometric sites will be very nice. For example meta 9-12 items aquirable only by exploration like "Experimental Invulnernability Field"

* Dynamic And Challenging: Epic ark like escalations are a very good idea, where your choices can change the whole escalation. Also, another good idea is to include wormholes leading...back to our universe, or first interaction with terrans after many thousands of years. Make exploration more connected with EVE's history.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.22 18:02:00 - [81]
 

There was once a player named "Not identified" that actually made it (sort of) to Jove space using a clever bookmarking exploit a very long time ago... (some of you may actually remember it... but the thread is an interesting read in the context of this one).

Here's a YouTube video of the journey... THIS is an EvE Explorer.

Originally by: Castar
ArrowPosted - 2007.03.11 19:36:00
Kinda lame it doesn't work anymore, I thought this was very cool.

I really think CCP should implement exploration like this. It wouldn't be too hard. Just have a max radius around the sun for every solar system, and when a ship crosses that radius, have a system change and calculate where he is and have a system-change. This last thing would be quite difficult, but since this won't happen that often (I think), so it won't be too heavy on the server. They could implement a "no mans land" where nothing is, and which automatically sends you back to your last system, with a message not to try again, to prevent people getting hopelessly lost (though that would be part of the thrill). Then of course they would need to implement new systems with no stargates, so it's actually useful. Player constructed stargates might be nice, but not nescessary.

Wishful thinking of course, sadly none of it will happen. Very sadly, since it would lift EVE to another level. Name a MMORPG that doesn't have boundaries? EVE could be a first (of course there's that no-man's land, which would be a kind of boundary still, but it would still be a first to have areas of the world/space that people actually don't know about and have to completely discover for themselves...).


Is this even possible? ^
Seems like a good idea to me. Base pod position on a GPS (Galactic Positioning System) set of coords?

Originally by: Sha'ara Sha'amashira
ArrowPosted - 2008.06.14 11:58:00i like the idea of being able to stealth the distance between systemsand it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the game mechanics either really. Instead of loading everything, you just load a single system as usual and add bounding areas to the system, when you cross the bounding area you get the typical loading bar like you jumped then you have a void that loads between systems you have to navigate and then another loading for the next system you visit.


Why not?

Originally by: Freyya
ArrowPosted - 2008.10.09 14:06:00When i started playing 2,5 years ago even just the music with the login page made me excited of being back in the game and just play, explore systems and such. Nowadays you've heard and seen it all and realise space isn't dynamic but rather static. Lurking by a gate and checking info on every damn big ass ship you saw, imagining flying it one day. Imagining it's possibilities rather than it's limitations. Well i can tell you this; It ain't as special actually flying it than when you saw it for the first time. Also seeing things change constantly from the point where you got to know it has it's effects.


I can relate... wish there was new "undocumented" things that were introduced or removed from the game from time to time WITHOUT a dev-blog explaining every little nuance...

Archaeology should be able to answer the following:

Originally by: Klaitu BenJohhn
In the time since the Eve gate disaster, has anyone ever figured out the cause of it? How much "stuff" from before the disaster remains? Are there pre-disaster stations or settlements anywhere? How far had the Earth people explored before the gate collapse? Did the earth people bring stargate technology with them through the wormhole, or was that developed later? Why aren't the planets in the Genesis sector more developed? Why are the "civilized" worlds like Amarr Prime and Matar nowhere near New Eden?


Just some food for thought...


-

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.22 23:03:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 22/08/2011 23:05:00
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Cailais
Im not sure why there's a distinction between 'within 5 AU and 10 AU) of a celestial? Do players really feel they are in 'deep space' 10AU away from a planet?? I'd suggest not but I could be mistaken.

Deep space, in my view, would be an absence of those familiar hat pegs. For example a system devoid of planets (or even stars). You might liken this to beyond our immediate solar system (earth, mars, jupiter etc) would be 'deep space').

Mystery might be evoked by the absence of the normal and familiar - "why are there no planets?". Creating the 'unknown' means there's a need to distance oneself from the 'known'. Your home is not very mysterious because it is well known to you, a empty house miles from anywhere has mystery because its is disassociated from the familiar.

At its heart 'exploration' means travel through the 'unknown'.

C.



The main reason for the range distinction is it should make it easy for players to select the kind of content they want without artificial mechanisms. If it's a long way out, it's "mystery" content, if it's close in it's the current push button receive bacon variety. Creating an actual sense of the unknown would require a lot of additional work and would probably be a whole expansion's worth of content (we could call it Apocrypha).


I can see you would need to 'partition' the content in such a way that say a new player would be able to access content commensurate with their experience. But that approach seems (to me at least) to directly contradict your other design principles (mystery, chance based, freshness / the unexpected). The 5AU / 10AU approach seems more like pre determined 'selection' as opposed to true exploration? Shouldn't "push button: receive bacon" be the domain of agent missions?

Have you considered iterating upon w-space ? I was slightly disappointed that w-space effectively meant 'select: sleepers' rather than have a variety of system types (forgotten "k-space", weird barren systems etc) to create a more evocative sense of travel. I appreciate your system generating process may not allow that degree of variety but it might be worth considering (long term).

C.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.23 07:54:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
.. Creating an actual sense of the unknown would require a lot of additional work and would probably be a whole expansion's worth of content (we could call it Apocrypha).

Apocrypha, Is that an attempt at making a "funny"? Laughing

CCP has prided itself on developing tools to make mission creation faster and you have introduced the semi-random encounter sites.

Yes a fully randomized exploration system would be an insane amount of work, but if you wanted easy you probably wouldn't be in this business in the first place .. right?Razz
Besides, you can 'cheat' like you did with encounter sites, have various 'pools' that are queried to give the illusion of randomization .. same thing just instead of individual sites it will rooms within a larger dungeon.

As for a full expansion worth .. so? Didn't you just switch to a staggered release system to be able to deploy content in a steady stream rather than big blocks?
Doesn't have to be instantaneous revamp of everything exploration, a gradual replacement of existing plexes will be just as good .. you were the one who brought up the five year scope of the endeavour so no need to rush.

Hao JinMa
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:10:00 - [84]
 

If even half of the good ideas about nomadic exploration here are introduced, I'll probably spend ten times as much time in Eve as I do now. I can't stress strongly enough how much the idea of science ships and problem-solving exploration sites appeals to me.

Volstruis
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:38:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Volstruis on 23/08/2011 12:49:21

1. Let covops ships and covops ships only refit modules from the cargohold of their own ship.
2. Increased PG to allow for bigger guns n better tank on Covops.
3. Flesh out science based explo skills in order to take into count a variety of cans.

This solves nearly every criteria outlined in the blog, is probably simplish to implement, and will allow explorers to focus on science rather than ships. I've been exploring for years now and still only have hacking 3. That I think is the heart of the current explo fail. Why is the Ishkur is better in every instance than the Cheetah. And why is my Pilgrim as close as I can get to a true explorer ship, but has no decent bonus' and is really designed for something entirely different. It's sad.

These seem like tiny changes and what's more they seem like borked game design.

Raw Matters
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:21:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Raw Matters on 23/08/2011 20:23:27
I very much like the fact that you are delving into exploration for real now. I am a great fan of exploration and would spent most of the time on it if it would be possible/lucrative.

There are currently several issues with the system:
- All valuable sites are gone about 30 minutes after downtime, in high, low and 0.0.
- All wormholes with a high-sec entrance are taken by a corp.
- Ships which fit the explorer style (mainly cloakers) don't have enough firepower for many 0.0 and some low-sec sites.
- Finding hidden NPC complexes doesn't pay off at all unless you happen to have a battle ship nearby.
- Exploring always happens on a common route, there is little 'mystery' in that.
- While the scanning system is (imo) well done, you usually know after a getting the name what's inside the site (google is your friend).


I spent some time on how these issues could be fixed and here are some ideas I had in my mind:
- Add 'Explorer' class ships that are designed to be used for exploration: covert cloaking, well sized cargo, ability to fit required modules, some tank/firepower, no reason to bring it into pvp.
- Add an ability to jump into unknown space from everywhere, e.g. a module that opens a wormhole for 1 minute that leads to any random location (wh space, 0.0, low, high).
- In combination with that: add WH spaces that do not have any entrance/exit, so only explorers can reach them (if they are lucky).
- Create a system that produces randomized sites so you never explore the same site twice.
- Have site being created frequently and not only after downtime.
- In general all Explorer class ships should have a way to avoid using ammunition as this would either make the Amarr or Gallente version superior (due to lasers/drones). This can be done by either restricting all ships to drones only (preferred), by implementing special Explorer-class weapons or by adding a feature to all Explorer-class ships that they do not use up any ammunition while firing.

As I spent some more time on how such an explorer ship might look like, here are my details on that (names are to be filled in):
Explorer-Universal-Scan-Module:
- Fits in high slot, can only be fitted on Explorer class ships, combines Analyzer, Hacker, Salvager in one module. This eases the design of the slots, as otherwise 3 slots are always taken for these modules.

Explorer-Random-Jump-Module:
- Fits in med slot, jumps the ship instantly into any random system in a random location, has a reasonable cooldown (30 minutes?), has fuel for about 10 charges (so you have a reason find a refill spot eventually)

Explorer-Random-WH-Generator:
- Fits in high slot, generates a WH close by that leads to a random location, mass limitation only allows for battle-cruisers max (to avoid attack fleets), max mass limits to about 10 ships, has a reasonable cooldown (1h?), has fuel for 5 charges.

Explorer-Cruiser:
- Based on Recon ships
- Has a high mass/low speed to avoid them being used in pvp
- Can fit 1 Explorer-Random-Jump-Module (with an appropriate hangar for fuel)
- Can fit 1 Explorer-Universal-Scan-Module
- Targeted for solo play in mostly low-sec

Explorer-Battlecruiser:
- Based on Command ship class but can fit covert ops module
- Acts as a "command-ship" and mobile home 'base' for explorer fleets
- Has a high mass/low speed to avoid them being used in pvp
- Can fit 1 Explorer-Random-WH-Generator (with an appropriate hangar for fuel)
- Can fit 1 Explorer-Universal-Scan-Module
- Allows others to refit their ship
- Has a Corporate Hangar
- Targeted for small groups (~4-10 ppl) that like to explore together


I hope these ideas will help on your quest for a better exploring system. =)

Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.08.24 00:55:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Thur Barbek on 24/08/2011 00:55:34
Originally by: Raw Matters
Edited by: Raw Matters on 23/08/2011 20:23:27
I very much like the fact that you are delving into exploration for real now. I am a great fan of exploration and would spent most of the time on it if it would be possible/lucrative.

There are currently several issues with the system:
1. All valuable sites are gone about 30 minutes after downtime, in high, low and 0.0.
2. All wormholes with a high-sec entrance are taken by a corp.
3. Ships which fit the explorer style (mainly cloakers) don't have enough firepower for many 0.0 and some low-sec sites.
4. Finding hidden NPC complexes doesn't pay off at all unless you happen to have a battle ship nearby.
5. Exploring always happens on a common route, there is little 'mystery' in that.
6. While the scanning system is (imo) well done, you usually know after a getting the name what's inside the site (google is your friend).


1. Agreed, please fix this. Just make the system spawn at DT, like it is now, but add a timer that makes it not show up till after X time. Could even do it on an hourly interval to reduce server load. Add a variable to the site. Every hour, the server checks for this variable and sets probeable? to true.

2. Not really an issue in my opinion, the best locations will always be fought over.

3 and 4. You addressed this pretty well in the rest of your post.

5 and 6. Agreed, most of us realize (i hope) that creating 50 scenarios by hand for each type would be its own expansion. Most of us don't really want to waste a whole expansion on that. An easy way to reduce the feel of cookie cutter stuff is to simply have multiple spawn points. Another way is to have pockets, like missions, but the order doesnt matter. For example: you warp into a site and it is pretty much a normal site, but there is an acceleration gate or two. One leads to a trap, a bunch of combat ships, the other leads to another basic site (mabey more profitable version).

To accomplish this, no brand new content has to be created. Simply link the trap gates to a random combat site. The treasure gates could link to a random non-combat site. You still get cookie cutter rooms, but the sites are always different.
This has the added bonus effect of making sites take longer to complete. Radar and Mag sites take the least amount of time to complete compared to all the other sites, and yet they are often more rare. (This may stem from me not playing at downtime, as i think they despawn when completed.) I think that making the sites take longer would help give more people a chance to experience them as well, people couldnt blitz 10 of then within an hour after downtime.

To reduce cookie cutter rooms, vary the spawn points of objectives and enemies. The warp to beacon can even be randomized, nothing makes it more interesting that thinking your warping in at 50km and ending up 10km from the horde of drones.

If you wanted to add more content though, i think making radar and mag sites have the chance to escalate into harder mag/rader sites would be cool. At the moment combat pilots get all the good loot.




Nessu's
Posted - 2011.08.24 23:48:00 - [88]
 

problems with exporation (0.0 only)

1) not enough of it. i have a hard time finding a site when i play don't know if they despawn after time or other people do it.
2) escalations are a pain in the ass that most times just don't pay out.when i get escalations i will do the base site and if it shows up near my location i'll do the other ones too. but sometimes it's just not possible to do them when they spawn 22 jumps away deep in other peoples sov.
3) it's too easy. i made an alt and within a week was scanning almost all of them down with ease 2 weeks later i had an alt that could do it in a covert ops as well. For the reward there needs to be more skill point investment to get the juciy ones

suggestions(0.0)
needs to have a small base to do exploration, something like an orca but built for the job. would be great if i could anchor it and then ship out to a combat ship. it would need jump drives or covert op cloak to be worth while.

need more non-combat sites cause these are fun and the pay is decent

comabt sites need to be more solo. I don't mind not having the greatest loot without other people helping, but i hate only ever being able to solo pathetic ones that just not worth my time.

eslcations need to be closer. they can show up anywhere in region(ive never had one that left region) including 21 jumps away.
That's freaking far and a mission all on it's own in 0.0

PVP not PVE. all these sites require pve fit ships and in 0.0 that means your dog food if u get caught. having them more like incusians would be nice.

more small end sites. think of sites that are roughly as hard as a sanctum but has a better chance of a faction spawn. Since the 0.0 nerf any1 not in big allaince is stuck with .0 true sec(unless u can pay for more) and it realy realy sucks balls for players who can only show up for a few hours a week. ive had alot of members drop corp and go to high sec when they need isk.(ccp dun screwed the pooch on this one)



serumph
Posted - 2011.08.25 01:50:00 - [89]
 

Mystery in exploration seems the best way to use the history of EVE as a way to make the game more exciting. There are built in things about the EVE universe that are unknown, and they should be made knowable under very difficult sets of circumstances, rewarding exploration, risk taking, accumulation and analysis of information, and inductive reasoning. This knowledge need not be either absolute or immutable, but it should be valuable economically and, hopefully, even made valuable strategically or tactically.

Entire thread on exploration +1. Exploration is the core of EVE, because its content gives EVE its verisimilitude. If new things can be learned about the EVE universe, it shares an important characteristic with real universes. This aspect of the game is probably the weakest part of its development at present, based on what I see and hear from the older players.

Alexandria Ekibe
Amarr
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2011.08.25 06:53:00 - [90]
 

Something i've noticed about exploration is that while you need a battleship to clear many 0.0's, there are no battleships with exploring bonuses... So I think that a T1/2 battle ship which focuses on exploring would be very interesting, and allow you to feel like you're flying an exploration ship, instead of plopping a launcher on a combat ship.


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