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Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:45:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Gevlin on 26/08/2011 00:46:51
I think it would be a benefit that cyno bridges (titan) and Jump Bridge networks can not support capital size hulls preventing Freighters, and Orcas from using these short cuts.

this would put a higher demand on transport ships and Itty 5s and Jump Freighters.

Though the removal of jump bridges would harm the smaller alliances.
For small alliances being able to use a parent alliance jump bridges helps those smaller alliances start up

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.26 01:01:00 - [92]
 

I would love to see the black market items system in place. Start producing Drops of loot of the major empires that pirate factions want to pay isk for. Amarrian overlords effects being purchased by Blood Raiders

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.26 03:38:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Mioelnir
Just a bit of brainstorming here on stuff I experienced over the last 4 years in nullsec that I think should be thought of (and could think of right now):

The average grunt will have all the tools, except at the instant you actually look because you need him to. Then he won't.
The core truth of nullsec from which everything else can be derived.

  • And suddenly... stuff

  • Every working 0.0 entity has, on some scale, logistics wizards in the background. They mostly like to stay in the background. Being able to keep them in the background is also a strategic advantage of supply line safety. This should weigh in against more overt types of logistics.
    Their value (as players) means they are mostly in charge of vital stuff. Losing one of them is not as immediate, but often more crippling, than losing an FC.

  • Sutlers

  • Players with access to better logistics capabilities will often boost their income or fund their entire pvp by selling prefit ships to comrades or working delivery contracts for them. Well known staging areas are also often supplied by third parties with all kinds of stuff. These are player created professions that enrich EVE and should be protected. Delivering goods to a warzone should not require that I am able to repel the parties waging war. Being able to do so could be beneficial though.

  • Now you see it. Now you don't

  • I think I've seen the last noticeable amounts of nullsec freighter runs in the early days of Revelations. When one hand was still enough to count all titan bridges and travel in general was a lot slower. But even back then, regardless of whether one chose to web the freighters and hope to get through unseen, or bubble and secure the entire route - the freighters themselves were protected by logging them off.
    There is an entire profession (suicide ganking) living off the fact, that it is inherently impossible to protect a single ship through group effort while the ship is logged in, undocked and moving. This is, bluntly, bad design.

  • There is only so much to go around...

  • The age-old issue of every mining fleet. Having 10 people bored protecting them means 10 players not doing anything useful and/or earning ISK, thus making a viable activity for those directly doing it ineffective for the group. If the value of an activity is not directly influenced by the amount of players involved, we will find a way to streamline it down to the absolute required minimum. In case of hauling stuff, usually 1. Having the "escort" do other stuff is often effective enough to compensate occasional hauling losses.

  • Associative volumes

  • The needed volume of supplies an entity requires scales with its size. But it also scales with activity, so unless a big entity has requirements that are not shared with small entities (like... ships), everything creating a weakspot for the large entity will create a proportionally larger weakspot for the smaller one ("punishing them for actually playing the game").

  • Eve law of free markets

  • The amount of hostile market manipulation rises with the amount of stuff available.
    Everyone without outpost access can buy and resell stuff. While in general this is good, there are entities ingame which you do not want to challenge to a size comparison when it comes to wallet depth. These manipulations also tend to decrease confidence in local markets. Supply line confidence is huge for long term nullsec commitments. A grunt will only be disappointed by the local market (and get shouted at by the FC) so many times until he starts ignoring it (and get stuff in Jita). Alliance contracts do not scale well beyond low volume premium items (7/14days vs 90 days, click-orgy).




    Hey Greyscale - this makes sense to me. Buff ability for independent indy guys to build in o.o and avoid station market pvp and supply modules cheap FOR PVP. Buff mining ships so they don't need as much of an escort.

    Psi Omicron
    Posted - 2011.08.26 13:58:00 - [94]
     



    Remember the EvE is a game and that while logistics should play a role, complicating it too much and you will loose the 'fun' factor. IMO the majority of people don't play the game to move **** from one place to another. Lets make the game fun!!

    Zilero
    Posted - 2011.08.26 14:16:00 - [95]
     

    Moving nullsec home is already ******edly boring as is.

    I say up the ship hangar in carriers from 1 mil m3 to 2 mil m3 - that means if you own your own carrier (which a lot of nullsec dwellers do) you can now jump 2 BS + various support ships with you in one go.

    Jumping back and forth a multitude of times through 5 cynos is just BORING.

    Too much time in 0.0 is already spent doing logistics ****, I don't want to spend more (and this is on a personal level, not corp/alliance level!).

    -zil

    Gogela
    Freeport Exploration
    Posted - 2011.08.26 14:46:00 - [96]
     

    Edited by: Gogela on 26/08/2011 14:52:17
    Originally by: Psi Omicron
    Remember the EvE is a game and that while logistics should play a role, complicating it too much and you will loose the 'fun' factor. IMO the majority of people don't play the game to move **** from one place to another. Lets make the game fun!!


    Logistics is boring because you have no ph34r. You teleport from one bridge to another... you log... you never worry about getting ganked. When I first started playing this game I begged for scouts all the time. My heart skipped a beat every time I jumped through a gate. It was exciting... and many times it turns out my ph34r was well founded, and I lost something important. Now I have jump freighters. I have carriers. I have Tengus fit with nullifyers and cov reconfigs and stabs that are pretty much in-freaking-vincible / totally uncatchable. I go where I want with what I want. No one can stop me. I too find it tedious... because moving anything is only a hassle. If I am so invincible, the thinking goes, why should I even be bothered with having to undock? I hate it because it's boring. It's boring because there is no risk, and I don't need any help to do it. I can just fly solo and with my fleet of ships and current game mechanics I'm safer jumping around null sec than autopiloting through empire.

    Ph34r...

    ...and here's the thing: If CCP brings the ph34r a lot of people, perhaps even those posting in this thread, are going to ***** and whine and cry about how terrible it is and how it will destroy nullsec and EvE... and they may get their way... but if there is no ph34r the logistics problem will not be solved. If the logistics problem is not solved than huge fleets will continue to teleport around the map effortlessly, and nullsec will never get "fixed"

    Ph34r is the litmus test of logistical re-factoring success in null. Ph34r is what makes null sec null sec, and it is what keeps the game interesting. Right now few competent pilots have any ph34r... and they are bored.

    Just my 2 isk...

    -

    Frosteye
    Posted - 2011.08.27 02:30:00 - [97]
     

    Edited by: Frosteye on 27/08/2011 02:31:43
    Originally by: Gogela

    Originally by: Psi Omicron
    Remember the EvE is a game and that while logistics should play a role, complicating it too much and you will loose the 'fun' factor. IMO the majority of people don't play the game to move **** from one place to another. Lets make the game fun!!


    Logistics is boring because you have no ph34r. You teleport from one bridge to another... you log... you never worry about getting ganked. When I first started playing this game I begged for scouts all the time. My heart skipped a beat every time I jumped through a gate. It was exciting... and many times it turns out my ph34r was well founded, and I lost something important. Now I have jump freighters. I have carriers. I have Tengus fit with nullifyers and cov reconfigs and stabs that are pretty much in-freaking-vincible / totally uncatchable. I go where I want with what I want. No one can stop me. I too find it tedious... because moving anything is only a hassle. If I am so invincible, the thinking goes, why should I even be bothered with having to undock? I hate it because it's boring. It's boring because there is no risk, and I don't need any help to do it. I can just fly solo and with my fleet of ships and current game mechanics I'm safer jumping around null sec than autopiloting through empire.

    Ph34r...

    ...and here's the thing: If CCP brings the ph34r a lot of people, perhaps even those posting in this thread, are going to ***** and whine and cry about how terrible it is and how it will destroy nullsec and EvE... and they may get their way... but if there is no ph34r the logistics problem will not be solved. If the logistics problem is not solved than huge fleets will continue to teleport around the map effortlessly, and nullsec will never get "fixed"

    Ph34r is the litmus test of logistical re-factoring success in null. Ph34r is what makes null sec null sec, and it is what keeps the game interesting. Right now few competent pilots have any ph34r... and they are bored.

    Just my 2 isk...

    -


    Gotta agree with this. The thing that makes EVE great is risk VS. Reward. That "ph34r" of the unknown and risk but the shiny isk treasure at the end.

    I think Team BFF (the best of CCP imho) can fix this whole NULL and game stagnation by looking at all the existing dynamics like they have and trying to
    A) simplify ....then maybe having to add if needed to increase things like small holding but also
    B) whatever you do keep the FEAR (proper spelling). You can do that for all professions just give them a way to use their brain (not "I win" buttons) to keep themselves safe. Allow smart thinkers to give themselves lead time in all activites and buffer. For mining - maybe that is advance notice of people near by or ships with extra low slots designed in for warp stabs - stuff like that.
    Prime examples of No Fear and "I win buttons" are hot drops or logistics getting too easy. Cyno spool ideas seem like a solution to that. Intel being more about scouting might mean we get rid of local and one ship trait that is added to compensate is an onboard scanner module that certain ships get bonuses too.

    I am sure they will balance it and find a way to let the new content designers grow EVE. It is a tough job but I have faith (not much in CCP as of late) but in Team BFF. Keep up the good work.

    Jade Greenfire
    Posted - 2011.08.27 11:20:00 - [98]
     

    Edited by: Jade Greenfire on 27/08/2011 11:22:58
    Reicine Ceer Page 1 +1 like that idea.

    Mioelnir Page 2 totally agree with yr 1st post.

    SamTheTrader page 2, congratulations your idea just meant the death of not only 0.0 but the eve economy. You do realise that it is largely due to people losing ships in 0.0 that drives the eve economy in the first place. Not everyone in 0.0 likes to rat or do missions, so take away insurance payments can mean they cant afford to get a replacement ship
    .
    Originally by: John McCreedy

    The problem with Super Carriers is the same problem for a lot of ships in Eve. They lack a specific role. The ships that are most use are those with a specific role where as those without are bearly ever used. The thing about Super Carriers is that where as all the other ships with tightly defined roles are pretty rubbish outside of that role, Supers excel at most things. They're a Jack of all trades, master of all. Super Carriers should be made to be Super Capital Killers that are lousy at killing anything smaller than a Capital Ship. That will stop the proliferation of entire fleets of them.


    Like you said Supers are currently the "Jack of all trades, master of all" & they were never meant to be. They are somthing in the area of 140% overpowered & project far too much power in their current state, which is why they are being rebalanced. The arguement as to what their role should be is up for debate, but not for much longer as that nerf will happen sooner than later. Dreads are supposed to be Cap & Pos killers, not supercarriers.

    Nessu's page 3
    +10 I know your pain.

    The re-occurring theme seems to be the call for 0.0 resources to be non static and for overall, some form of seeding markets in 0.0, as resources that are abundant in 0.0 are cheaper to obtain in Jita than 0.0. Which shouldn't be the case, although it is.
    Distances in 0.0 are fine the way they are. Should a alliances that has held sov long enough to have jumpbridges be penalised for it or for having Titans? No.

    The answer maybe to restrict portalling distances/abillities and maybe remove jump bridges.
    But that alone wont help small corps/alliances that live deep in (30-40+ jumps)in 0.0 nor will it give them a reason to live there in the first place.
    PVP is a hughe part of 0.0 and the fact that fleets do travel so far to fight each other is a arguement for the reduction in the total size of 0.0 space not the expansion of it. Smaller space = more conflict as people would live closer together, not further apart& it in itself will cause more friction and provide opportunities for more PVP.

    Also;
    1. The idea of alliances holding freighter ops to move stuff is also highly flawed, given if you are going to do one, you do it with smallest possible numbers you can so as to improve your security and try and avoid detection, not increase detection by using big numbers.
    2.The majority of people that live in 0.0 are not isk rich, many openly struggle and buy GTC's and sell plexs to survive, fund their game play. There is always a new flavour of the week ship alliances seem to demand you fly.
    Lastly,
    3. Since moon goo was nerfed so hard previously leaving only 1 moon "tech" (located mainly in the north) as of any real value, people should stop blaming moon goo as a source of all 0.0 isk problems. It has not been that way for a long time.
    The fact is, you have to run multiple POS's in multiple systems to gather and react different goo to make some T2 components or any decent amount of isk and then you end up spending a fair porion of that in POS fuel and transport costs.

    Bloodpetal
    Mimidae Risk Solutions
    Posted - 2011.08.27 17:02:00 - [99]
     

    Edited by: Bloodpetal on 27/08/2011 17:04:19



    I think it's a two-fold issue.



    On one hand you have the ability to be fast and efficient, which is good because it means you get to play more.

    On the other hand you have it "too easy".



    I agree with the poster above me who talks about PH34R.


    Too easy and too safe is boring, it's not null sec. Too dangerous is bad, like taxes. I think the sensation that EVE is BIG needs to be emphasized, but not at the expense of massively more time to spend moving things around.


    I'd say the biggest challenges that are faced by EVE when it comes to some of this are the nature of the chokepoints (Stargates) to get around, and the nature of stations.


    Let's look at the modifications of local - what happens if you want to undock, but you can't see your local, how do you know your undock point is safe? Noone wants to just undock and get blown up by 30 guys he can't see. No fun there.

    The beauty of EVE to me is it's actually pretty easy to pick your fights. That's a very good quality to me, because when I have my assets on the line, noone wants to get clotheslined and violated just because they were there. The ability to evade is very valuable, IF you know what you're doing.

    At the same time, Jumping around has caused the perceived "shrinking" of EVE space. And they (jump ships) are really not that hard to get into in the big scheme of things. If you shorten the Jump Range of most of these ships, but make the time to "cycle" the next jump drive, as well as reduce the time of the Cyno Generator, basically requiring a person to make 2-3 jumps for what used to take 1, but let it take roughly the same amount of time (2-3 jumps now takes 30 minutes+ with the cyno generator cycle, and with capacitor regen time), so, what takes 10 minutes for 1 jump today, would still take 10 minutes tomorrow, but instead you need to do 2-3 of them.


    This would require more points of interaction along the way, as well as more challenges that are going to be faced that aren't strictly "more time" related, but more about coordination, organization and safety.


    This would make it a "bigger" universe and not a more annoying universe. Or at least not a more annoying "game", with the potential to deal with annoying players. :)




    Ravcharas
    GREY COUNCIL
    Nulli Secunda
    Posted - 2011.08.27 22:43:00 - [100]
     

    Question for CCP Greyscale;

    What metric or metrics is the jumpbridge change being evaluated against, and how would you say the change has panned out so far?

    chekerss
    Minmatar
    Revenent Defence Corperation
    Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
    Posted - 2011.08.30 09:15:00 - [101]
     

    To truly fix null sec you need to take all the problems as a whole instead of pointing to specific areas to fix. All of the areas affect each other. My dream list of null sec fixes are as follows.

    -Give a reason for smaller fleets to exist besides shooting other ships. There needs to be a goal or an area they can contribute to the ongoing forever war besides shooting at ratters.

    -Introduce formations to fleets where the smaller fleets get bigger bonuses from the formation therebye increasing the desirablity of those smaller fleets. They can even have different types of bonuses. Small fleets get bonuses to tackling or movement while the larger fleets get bonuses to bashing pos's.

    -Get rid of the titan bridge. When a large invasion force is coming it should actually have to travel there. Increasing the travel time increases the chances for a fight and also helps the defender.

    -Limit the amount of Super Caps allowed in to a fleet. This will decrease the amount on the field at one time or at the least increase the chances for something going wrong for them in a battle. The more cynos forced to be lit the greater cooperation required to use them.

    -Increase the desirablity of living in null sec by decreasing the awards from not living in it. High sec should not be making as much money as it does.

    -Make the Jump Freighter more vulnerable. A way to do this would be giving it a down time once it lands in a system. Once it lands in system make it's sensors recalibrate or something making it dead in the water for a time. Kind of like a siege cycle. This would force alliances to increase there intel net and defend their logistics route. This will also increase fights.

    -Getting rid of local and replacing it with a different way of gathering in-system intel. My suggestion for this would be to have some sort of mass indicator on the overview. Basically a graph showing how much stuff is in space. Not exacly what is in space but how much of it. Basically a frigate would have a very low impact on that graph and a battleship would be bigger. You can't tell if they are blue, red, neut, but you are able to tell when a large blob lands in system.

    That's just a short list off the top of my head.

    Svalinn
    SOMER Blink
    Cognitive Development
    Posted - 2011.08.30 14:06:00 - [102]
     

    The status quo right now is that movement has 4 distinct types.
    - Jumping through a gate, fixed locations in space.
    - Jumping through a wormhole, variable locations in space.
    - Jumping through a Jump Bridge, player fixed locations around starbases.
    - Jumping to a Cyno by jump drive or briedge, variable locations.

    Player combat has sprung around this, generally fights happen around set celestial points ie: gates. (camps, big fleet camp fights) Wormholes tend to be smaller more mobile gangs due to their mass limitations and very opertunistic. Jump Bridges are around starbases, typically armed against people trying to camp them, and so only bombers, cloaky recons and large fleets can engage here, and cynosural drops are the arch-typical suprise supercap-butt sex or fleet bridge manouver.

    These are all known mechanics, but they can be expanded upon in both function and deployment, so that certain ships are balanced, and others empowered.

    Gates
    They are the standard way between systems.
    [+] Give alliances the ability to anchor destroyable weapons around gates in line with sovereignty, upgrades and levels. This adds defence, as well as a target for roaming fleets to destroy enemy infrastructure.


    Wormholes
    Transient, fleeting passageways.
    [+] Give Black Ops Battleships the ability / modules to generate wormholes, working in pairs on either side to establish short term wormholes provided they are in range of each other. These wormholes can be scanned down and collapsed by the use of ECM, similar to the Incursion literature. Fleeting Wormholes generated in this manner last hours at most and require time to set up and stabalise. (effect is to empower the black ops class as an insertion specialist, capable of building entry points into enemy territory.)
    [+] Increase the incidence of intraconstillation wormholes, make them shorter lived but far more common. (effect is to increase the ways you can move through a constillation if you are prepared to scan)


    Jump Bridges
    Player anchorable brige networks.
    [+] Reverse the 1 bridge per system change. Alliances that invest in bridge systems should be able to maintain such a system without having to rely on using a stargate after each jump.


    Cynosural Fields
    Player generated beacons for ships/bridges
    [+] Jumping to a beacon, or using a bridge to a beacon, now takes time depending on ship mass. Larger ships take longer to execute a jump to a beacon. Ships using a bridge incur a similar penalty. (effect is to remove the ability to instantly put multiple super carriers on grid)
    >> Your ships mass is distorting the jump field. Your ship will jump in x seconds. <<
    >> Your ships mass is distorting the jump portal. Your ship will jump in x seconds. <<
    [+] Give HICs an larger AoE field module that blocks incoming cynosural fields from activating or accepting jumps. Give fleets and formations a defence to the suprise cyno.



    Other changes
    [+] Titans can no longer activate Doomsday devices on non capital targets.
    [+] Warp Disruption Batteries can now affect targets previously immune to electronic warfare.


    Nathvas
    Posted - 2011.08.31 04:19:00 - [103]
     

    Edited by: Nathvas on 31/08/2011 04:19:59
    I think one step need for logistic change is make it so you can't launch a cyno with 5km of stations or pos structures/force fields. Right now you can jump into a lowsec/station system so close to the station, that nothing can kill you before your 30s session timer is up except a large SC fleet.

    Its so bad that in one system, I regulary see 3-5 cynos popped in a week with JF jumping in WITHOUT escorts and there is 5-10 pirates in local. Jumping a freighter into a lowsec system with out a escort should be consider a stupid thing to do, but with the ridicously huge docking range of stations. You can spawn within docking range, and have some times up to 10km buffer against bumping.

    Right now, you can do alliance lvl logistics with a main and alt. Which to me, is broken. It should require a small gang effort at least.

    Lolion Reglo
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2011.09.02 00:55:00 - [104]
     

    I agree with the ph34r factor idea. half of moving through null sec is the ph34r of losing your ships and cargo. i am all for the idea of instilling the ph34r back into null sec and i want that. but the option of a fast easy network to move around is still essential to not only making it easier to move supplies but make it so players can get back to playing the game instead of moving stuff around. So how about this.

    Make Jump bridges have a cool down timer before it can be used more than once. That way if you jump through one it will take at least 30 seconds to a minute before you can jump back through.

    Also have jump bridges stand alone from POSes but with the same level HP as a large POS. that way you can still destroy them but small gangs will take forever to do it.

    by adopting both of these factors not only would you make jump bridges more vulnerable to camps but you would almost be deterred from using them without a scout going through first to make sure a gang who did their intel gathering right isnt waiting in ambush for a nice juicy freighter to jump through.

    So dont cut how quick you can move things or how easy logistics can become... just make it more riskier to use for the ease of which you can move things then.

    Gogela
    Freeport Exploration
    Posted - 2011.09.02 21:11:00 - [105]
     

    Originally by: Nathvas
    Edited by: Nathvas on 31/08/2011 04:19:59
    I think one step need for logistic change is make it so you can't launch a cyno with 5km of stations or pos structures/force fields. Right now you can jump into a lowsec/station system so close to the station, that nothing can kill you before your 30s session timer is up except a large SC fleet.

    Its so bad that in one system, I regulary see 3-5 cynos popped in a week with JF jumping in WITHOUT escorts and there is 5-10 pirates in local. Jumping a freighter into a lowsec system with out a escort should be consider a stupid thing to do, but with the ridicously huge docking range of stations. You can spawn within docking range, and have some times up to 10km buffer against bumping.

    Right now, you can do alliance lvl logistics with a main and alt. Which to me, is broken. It should require a small gang effort at least.

    I couldn't agree with this more... jumping into LowSec is risk-free. Fun fact: I keep all of my unique ships and most of my assets in LowSec. I do exactly what you are describing to make that happen, risk free. 1 main, and an alt for the cyno. That's all it takes. I've never even had a close call. Throw up cyno, collect bacon.

    Black Romero
    Posted - 2011.09.04 05:05:00 - [106]
     

    Originally by: Svalinn


    Wormholes
    Transient, fleeting passageways.
    [+] Give Black Ops Battleships the ability / modules to generate wormholes, working in pairs on either side to establish short term wormholes provided they are in range of each other. These wormholes can be scanned down and collapsed by the use of ECM, similar to the Incursion literature. Fleeting Wormholes generated in this manner last hours at most and require time to set up and stabalise. (effect is to empower the black ops class as an insertion specialist, capable of building entry points into enemy territory.)





    Oooh I like this idea! Wow - Black ops would have a total meaning. The only thing is - I would have Wormholes only be active for a shorter time or active like a cyno in that you have to have both ships actively running them. This tool is very powerful and could be abused if not balanced with the need to keep it active. Logistics ships would need to rep it maybe to keep it alive and transport ships to fuel them to keep the wormhole open all while PVP ships supply supressing/defensive fire. Your first ship through would be an indy too so that you could resuply the Blackops with fuel to keep the fire lit.

    Then your small fleet could pass through (mass and time limitations of course). IF you don't bring along extra fuel too you are stuck in god knows where 0.0 (ie. hostile - eek!) How cool would this been though this whole idea. You could go on Black ops roaming gangs.

    Anyways - Neat idea...I will stop "fan boying" this one to death.

    Sigras
    Gallente
    Conglomo
    Posted - 2011.09.05 10:54:00 - [107]
     

    What if we're all looking at this in entirely the wrong way?

    What if instead of shortening the jump range for cap ships we triple it, heck let them jump from anywhere in the galaxy if theyre going to a POS cyno generator.

    But we put it on a Navicomputer recalibration timer meaning that the farther the jump the longer the ship would be stuck in that system without being able to jump anywhere else. This would of course effect larger ships more adversely on the order of a max around 3 days.

    This would mean that moving your capital fleet would be a very large and dangerous undertaking; you'd be loathe to put all of your caps into one fight because that would make you vulnerable everywhere else.

    This fits most of your stated design goals:

    It would definitely be a weak spot for groups to attack and figuring out where your cap ships are would provide a new goal for intelligence

    These being the largest ships in the fleet would certainly travel slower

    This would give you inherent dis-economies of scale because the more space you have, the more stuff you have thats worth defending.

    Thoughts?

    Gogela
    Freeport Exploration
    Posted - 2011.09.05 16:46:00 - [108]
     

    Edited by: Gogela on 05/09/2011 17:02:15
    Originally by: Sigras
    Thoughts?

    While I think this is an interesting idea, it's clearly a large alliance level strategy. It avoids what I feel is a more pervasive problem... the day-to-day logistics that corps and individuals within alliances are doing effortlessly and without risk. Increasing the jump range would do the opposite of what I feel is the stated goal of this discussion... namely slowing down large fleets and exposing logistics to danger. Scouting used to be a profession in and of itself, imho. I used to have a guy I used all the time. I'd give him 10 mil a run to scout me to Fountain. Scouts aren't really used anymore for logistics because we are bypassing gates altogether. In fact, we are bypassing hostile space all together, bounding past hostile constellations like they aren't even there. Not only does this take the danger out of logistics, but it changes the strategic map fundamentally for the masterminds out there planning alliance operations. They don't see hostile territory as a roadblock... not even as a speed bump. They plan a morning of combat against group X and than plan for that same fleet to engage group Y that same evening with hostile regions and choke points a non-consideration. The problem in that context is thinking of this purely in terms of point A and point B, forgetting that the journey is a large chunk of the adventure. Running the minerals your alliance gathered over the course of the week back to Jita or something should be an undertaking... bringing back the convoy and planning the logistics of a convoy is presently a forgotten art in EvE. "Do we have eyes in this or that system?" "I hear there's a band of pirates roaming in this or that constellation..." "We need a T2 med size fleet to escort 3 Charons 20 jumps..." When was the last time anyone made statements like that in your alliance channel? Now a-days it's more like "Hay, I got a few cans of smack I need to take to empire and a few more to take back, when is the next jump freighter going?" ...and that's it. We've gone from a big logistical operation requiring planning, scouting, escorts, danger, and exposure to a hassle for the alliance jump-slave.

    For me this is a fundamental problem with null and has made it a much less interesting place. When an alliance is staging in a system or moving resources it's done via teleportation. You don't roam through null and encounter a logistics convoy of any aim anymore. They simply don't exist, because nobody in their right mind moves things in that way. Think about this in terms of simple "action." What's been removed? By effectively removing serious logistics from the game, there are no convoys for pirates or opposing alliances to harass. Scouts and convoy escorts are out of work. Alliance heads are only planning attacks since logistics requires no planning. I mean... a large swath of pods are simply unemployed. The choices have narrowed considerably with the loss of consequences and effort.

    Essentially I hear what you are saying and while I agree that some of us may be thinking about things the wrong way, imho we should be thinking about the journey... the difficulty and danger of a great voyage across the stars, and not simply tweaking technical rules in a blindered view of a 2 point teleportation system. Adding more travel to the game adds to the volume of ships on the trade lanes.It introduces new variables and new risks for everyone. Roaming gangs need to fear for an alliance staging convoy crossing their path. Pirates have to deal with more frequent and dangerous fleets rolling around all the time. There's just more going on and more to ph34r when pilots are forced to actually navigate the huge cosmos. This is why I'm interested in this topic... requiring pilots to actually navigate and travel alone would make NullSec a far more interesting place (LowSec too). Conversely, screwing this up and making no EFFECTIVE changes leaves nullsec boring, depopulated, safe, and sans Gogela

    Sigras
    Gallente
    Conglomo
    Posted - 2011.09.05 23:51:00 - [109]
     

    I think we're talking about two different things.

    Fleet Logistics - moving fleets around and getting them where they need to be
    Alliance Logistics - Moving resources around so that the alliance has access to them when theyre needed.

    While these are both legitimate uses of the word logistics, theyre both different and I think need to be fixed in different ways.

    To fix alliance logistics, I think the first step is to disallow freighters from being used in a Titan bridge.

    Gogela
    Freeport Exploration
    Posted - 2011.09.06 14:04:00 - [110]
     

    Edited by: Gogela on 09/09/2011 01:14:30
    Originally by: Sigras
    I think we're talking about two different things.

    Fleet Logistics - moving fleets around and getting them where they need to be
    Alliance Logistics - Moving resources around so that the alliance has access to them when theyre needed.

    While these are both legitimate uses of the word logistics, theyre both different and I think need to be fixed in different ways.

    To fix alliance logistics, I think the first step is to disallow freighters from being used in a Titan bridge.


    I think you are correct... ^
    Good point. I agree.

    tbh I am NOT any kind of expert on Alliance level logistics.

    I don't have an informed opinion on that topic...

    -

    Ineka
    Gallente
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Posted - 2011.09.06 15:54:00 - [111]
     

    Originally by: Nathvas
    Edited by: Nathvas on 31/08/2011 04:19:59
    I think one step need for logistic change is make it so you can't launch a cyno with 5km of stations or pos structures/force fields. Right now you can jump into a lowsec/station system so close to the station, that nothing can kill you before your 30s session timer is up except a large SC fleet.

    Its so bad that in one system, I regulary see 3-5 cynos popped in a week with JF jumping in WITHOUT escorts and there is 5-10 pirates in local. Jumping a freighter into a lowsec system with out a escort should be consider a stupid thing to do, but with the ridicously huge docking range of stations. You can spawn within docking range, and have some times up to 10km buffer against bumping.

    Right now, you can do alliance lvl logistics with a main and alt. Which to me, is broken. It should require a small gang effort at least.


    This

    Travelling in space for Jump Freighters/Carriers means 0 risk, yes you may loose the T1 frig (lols) with the same old local smack but the fact is that cyno/docking for those ships is far too much easy and don't need any sort of escort.

    This must be changed.

    Sigras
    Gallente
    Conglomo
    Posted - 2011.09.07 05:05:00 - [112]
     

    Originally by: Ineka
    Originally by: Nathvas
    Edited by: Nathvas on 31/08/2011 04:19:59
    I think one step need for logistic change is make it so you can't launch a cyno with 5km of stations or pos structures/force fields. Right now you can jump into a lowsec/station system so close to the station, that nothing can kill you before your 30s session timer is up except a large SC fleet.

    Its so bad that in one system, I regulary see 3-5 cynos popped in a week with JF jumping in WITHOUT escorts and there is 5-10 pirates in local. Jumping a freighter into a lowsec system with out a escort should be consider a stupid thing to do, but with the ridicously huge docking range of stations. You can spawn within docking range, and have some times up to 10km buffer against bumping.

    Right now, you can do alliance lvl logistics with a main and alt. Which to me, is broken. It should require a small gang effort at least.


    This

    Travelling in space for Jump Freighters/Carriers means 0 risk, yes you may loose the T1 frig (lols) with the same old local smack but the fact is that cyno/docking for those ships is far too much easy and don't need any sort of escort.

    This must be changed.


    I disagree, large alliance's do their logistics by throwing regular freighters around with titan jump bridges from a POS, theyre WAY cheaper per m^3 and you have to make less trips, and when I say less expensive, i mean WAY less expensive like, it costs more to bridge a fenrir somewhere than it does for a nomad to jump itself that same distance.

    also, whats your opportunity cost? Your Titan cant get trapped in a POS in low sec, and your freighters are in no danger because no pirate is stupid enough to attack a group of DRF freighters when they know like 5,000 ships are a single titan bridge away.

    What nerfing the jump freighters does is kill the little guys who cant afford to field a titan bridge network, or a blob of ships to defend their stuff if it ever gets attacked.

    Sigras
    Gallente
    Conglomo
    Posted - 2011.09.08 09:22:00 - [113]
     

    I would make a few changes to Titan bridges to make them less a tool used for projecting blobs and more a combat ship.

    1. Make it so that nothing built of capital components can use a Titan jump bridge.

    This would only really effect freighters and Orcas as normal cap ships can just jump themselves, but this would slow down large alliance logistics quite a bit.

    2. Change the jump portal duration to 600 seconds (10 minutes) and disable its use in POS shield bubbles

    3. Change the jump portal generator from a "push" to a "pull", so instead of right clicking on the titan to end up where the cyno is, you right click on the cyno to end up where the Titan is.

    Changes two and three would make the titan put itself in harms way in order to bridge in a whole fleet on top of the enemy.
    On a macro scale, Eve is an RTS game, and as such, it's a bad game mechanic to be able to teleport large armies into your opponents territory with no warning and no risk.

    If these changes were implemented, im fine with keeping Titans just as strong in combat as they are now; at least with these changes, they cant use arguably their best ability from complete safety.

    Hirana Yoshida
    Behavioral Affront
    Posted - 2011.09.08 11:45:00 - [114]
     

    Originally by: Sigras
    ...

    1. Assuming you phrase it thus to include freighters? Personally don't think that it needs go further than Bring-your-own-jumpdrive especially if the awesome #3 is added.
    2. Make it a toggle with the long cycle time, fits much better with the idea of Titan's being vanguards and makes the awesome #3 viable. Dreads are awful to fly because of the "sit on ass for 10mins" feature, would hate to inflict that pain on Titan's.
    3. aka. "The Awesome". Changing from push to pull is genius and forces some serious (potential) sacrifice to use that particular shortcut when moving fleets.
    Added bonus of making BO's truly unique as the only ship that can catapult others around.


    Nathvas
    Posted - 2011.09.09 05:21:00 - [115]
     

    Edited by: Nathvas on 09/09/2011 05:25:04
    Edited by: Nathvas on 09/09/2011 05:23:08
    Edited by: Nathvas on 09/09/2011 05:22:29
    Edited by: Nathvas on 09/09/2011 05:21:58
    Originally by: Sigras


    I disagree, large alliance's do their logistics by throwing regular freighters around with titan jump bridges from a POS, theyre WAY cheaper per m^3 and you have to make less trips, and when I say less expensive, i mean WAY less expensive like, it costs more to bridge a fenrir somewhere than it does for a nomad to jump itself that same distance.

    also, whats your opportunity cost? Your Titan cant get trapped in a POS in low sec, and your freighters are in no danger because no pirate is stupid enough to attack a group of DRF freighters when they know like 5,000 ships are a single titan bridge away.

    What nerfing the jump freighters does is kill the little guys who cant afford to field a titan bridge network, or a blob of ships to defend their stuff if it ever gets attacked.


    No, Even large alliances are using JF to move stuff. Titans aren't so common you can't alway gurantee to have one online to be able to bridge something. Does it happen, yes. Should titans be able to bridge freighters, no I don't think they should.


    http://s765.photobucket.com/albums/xx296/nathvas/?action=viewĄt=20110905201008.jpg


    As I said, here is a screen shot to prove my point. Me, and 2 buddies warp to the cyno, to watch a Anshar jump into lowsec with no escort. If he had been 5km from station, we would have rapped him. But since you can obviously see, he's inside docking range, so we don't bother aggressing as he would simply docked. Also, you can see from the ticker. Its Ewoks, a medium size alliance in 0 space.

    Sigras
    Gallente
    Conglomo
    Posted - 2011.09.09 09:31:00 - [116]
     

    it is well documented that BoB had one guy with like 14 accounts do all of their POS logistics for all of fortress delve because it was mind-numbingly simple, and that was years ago when there were way less Titans in game, you're telling me that Raiden and the DRF dont do that now? or the goons? or Test? or Stainwagon?

    Also, if the guy doing the logistics is the owner of a the titan, then you dont have to worry about the guy doing the logistics having access to a Titan, he owns one.

    When they nerf supercarriers, we can think about nerfing jump freighters, until then we it just isnt justifiable as even if you cyno in with a fleet of triage carriers to rep you, a single supercarrier can kill the JF anyway because one volley goes through shield armor and half structure. Even if you get repped back to 100% armor and shield you still die in the next volley.


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