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blankseplocked Nullsec design goals feedback: Movement and logistics
 
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Marcus Junius
Posted - 2011.08.19 00:40:00 - [61]
 

The relative size of the Eve Online game environment has decreased dramatically over the years through changes in game play while the player base has increased dramatically creating a smallish "sand box" feel that probably wasn't initially intended and movement is at the root cause of this. I understand the desire for promoting player interaction but it has gone way too far.

I think that the relative ease of Strategic Mobility in this game by the major organizations allows them to project force far beyond any home base they have set up making Eve feel like a rather small game environment that can be easily dominated by a fairly small select group who often soak up a significant amount of any wealth facets that exist in null sec. You can see this by how insanely rich some organizations are getting as compared to others.

These same organizations will be highly resistant to any potential changes that threaten their dominance in this game.

I'm really beginning to believe that Eve Online is entering a "cross-roads" in its existence where game design has slowly focused more power into fewer hands by how easily they can move around, allowing some to rent out entire regions and still take in the best in the form of T2 moon productions. The explosion of SC fleets illustrate this.

Sources for these mobility issues:
Jump Drives
Jump Clones
Bridges
Warp Velocities

Solutions:
They are rather apparent, but as mentioned before, those who have built their wealth and "castles" via these game mechanics will scream bloody murder in the face of them being changed.

My "unpopular" fix:
Reduce the value of moon goo significantly
Makes systems feel 30 times bigger
Increase the resources of systems dramatically so the best can support 100s of players
Make it take 10 times longer to get anywhere via adjusting warp velocities. (some ships need to have their warp factor lowered and some need it dramatically increased to avoid some nasty issues)
Change scanning ranges dramatically to facilitate changing it from "I'm going to scan this whole system for x" to "I'm going to take several min to warp to planet x and then scan for y for a bit"
Remove jump drives
Remove POS bridges

The relative size of any space is measured by how long it takes to cross it. Solar systems in Eve Online are insanely small because of how quickly one can cross them and to some degree, how far reaching scanning is. The solar systems in Eve need to become big the size of the Universe will increase as a direct result. This in itself will solve many issues.

Eve Online in its current state is only a shadow of what it could be.


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:13:00 - [62]
 

Get rid of jump gates, Eve wide. Keep the map configuration for who can jump from where to where but change the mechanic. Exchange known locations for time and skill.

I'll not ramble on endlessly in this post and let an older writing do that for me, http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/AdunhSlavy/RSIV611.htm

In short, basic travel mechanics is part of the problem with null sec. It's the same huge blob fest over and over. Not all combat should be the same, space should feel more dynamic, larger and less predictable.

Eve combat has more in common with storming a castle gate house than it does combat in the most vast expanse imaginable, outer space.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.19 11:20:00 - [63]
 

Make eve a bigger place - cut all warp speeds in half to make it twice as big Very Happy

Making Eve bigger will perhaps make Jita less important and boost local trading better. But only if the change is noticeable enough.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.19 14:25:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Make eve a bigger place - cut all warp speeds in half to make it twice as big Very Happy

Making Eve bigger will perhaps make Jita less important and boost local trading better. But only if the change is noticeable enough.

How about cut all base Jump ranges in half and make the autopilot warp to 20km instead of 15km?

Amsterdam Conversations
Posted - 2011.08.19 15:12:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Make eve a bigger place - cut all warp speeds in half to make it twice as big Very Happy

Making Eve bigger will perhaps make Jita less important and boost local trading better. But only if the change is noticeable enough.

You do realize that a 1 AU warp takes about 40 seconds already?

That is probably the worst idea for a solution I've ever heard.

If you want space to be bigger, make it bigger. Add more systems.

Gallosek
Posted - 2011.08.19 21:59:00 - [66]
 

Quote:
High-volume shipments should be a special occasion, and as much as possible we should encourage them to be a group activity. These tend to be high-value shipments also, and bringing players together to appreciate and protect the value created, and put them in a position where they're likely to interact with other groups, is a positive thing.


I would agree, and I believe the "more people" element should involve the Eve core mechanic: pew. Namely escorts and hunters.

For example, ensure there are moments that logistics fleets are vulnerable. Short enough to be untedious, but long enough to give enemies a chance to disrupt it. Some examples of how this could be achieved include:
  • Jump bridges requiring advanced booking for slots
  • A spool up time for jumps
  • Mass limits on nullsec gates as a moving average (mass limits on WH are very effective in prompting planning and escorts)


Some of the above would allow advertisement of the movement of logistics (cargos over a certain value/scheduled jump activations/mass affected gates) on local CQ notice boards. Jump scheduling would allow spies in local to see the jump bridge schedules. Could even have notifications automatically sent to war targets (a reason for the isk sink of starting a war in null sec, and therefore something else to report in CQ/eve news when A decs B). Gangs "on the ball" could then swoop in and attempt to disrupt the logistics movements.

The logistics fleet would be able to mitigate this using good old fashioned escorts, scouting, killing the enemy fleet before it engages, and by generally paying attention to their intel channels.

/me is just chucking some thoughts in the air, just in case anything useful "sticks".

Gallosek
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:06:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Marcus Junius

The relative size of any space is measured by how long it takes to cross it.



The mechanic of warp itself is pretty dull, hence it doesn't take very long. I think it would be better to find ways to make what happens at either end more fun, rather than increasing the amount of time staring at a warp bubble. I think mechanics that make people spend time *out* of warp are more likely to lead to more of the *fun* elements of the game.

I agree making logistics take longer is fine, but make it take longer when you can actually be shooting or getting shot. Make it more interesting, not less.

Gallosek
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:15:00 - [68]
 

I would also suggest that there is no need to ditch jump bridges. Make them travel a little further even, but make the fleets using them vulnerable for longer time than they are at one regular gate, and at both ends. Protection can be got though escorts.

Example, have jump bridges away from POS fields, any ship using a jump bridge with anything in cargo other than scripts, cap boosters and ammo take a long time to jump, and is left immobilised for a while after jumping (including if you log out). *Perhaps* this could be done by depleting the capacitor and reducing cap recharge to 0 for several minutes. This could be mitigated using cap transfers from fleet mates (which is lovely, but is hard to scale unless you are well organised).

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:57:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Gallosek
I would also suggest that there is no need to ditch jump bridges. Make them travel a little further even, but make the fleets using them vulnerable for longer time than they are at one regular gate, and at both ends. Protection can be got though escorts.

Example, have jump bridges away from POS fields, any ship using a jump bridge with anything in cargo other than scripts, cap boosters and ammo take a long time to jump, and is left immobilised for a while after jumping (including if you log out). *Perhaps* this could be done by depleting the capacitor and reducing cap recharge to 0 for several minutes. This could be mitigated using cap transfers from fleet mates (which is lovely, but is hard to scale unless you are well organised).


Simple, everything is already vulnerable at a jump bridge, the modules are alreadya way from POS fields and supers cannot be tackled by POSes, hence why capitals and freighters die on POSes because a super is completely safe.

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:58:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 20/08/2011 01:07:01
Originally by: ThisIsntMyMain
Picking a "home" system makes the map too static - It encourages alliances to stay in one place. We really don't need to go back 6 months to a static north with too many carebears and no combat. Alliances that choose not to have a fixed base of operations should not have an unfair handicap or advantage.



This is counter intuitive to creating a Logistics network. Having a home system not only encourages improvement of the systems but also is a natural breeding ground for logistic networks.

Here are my ideas for logistics.

Firstly is on jump bridges, KEEP THEM. they are essential for logistic networks and allow a player to create their own. in fact a few simple changes will make it easier for the player to perform their movement duties and allow a certain amount of danger that an attacking group can cause quite the headache for a defender.

Make jump bridges along the lines of POS's. - to do this make it so that it doesn't need a POS to be placed. that it also has no shield and is the only structure placed. MAYBE ad a gun or turret for some protection but make it so a small gang can either disable it, and a large gang can destroy it. (some sort of calculation via DPS or something along those lines.)

Centralize the jump bridges into a network. - Before you start giving me flak just listen. Make an entire system dedicated to jump bridges, You can balance it by not allowing solid structures like outposts to be placed in this system and it can only be made via owning the system and improving with a "Nexus" upgrade. A bonus for doing this to a system is that fuel costs are slashed and or any other ideas you can gather from this. This not only makes a single system an attacker can focus on if they want to grief but allows the owner of the system to make his logistics easier by shortening the time it takes to move over a great distance. Also limit this upgrade to 1 per alliance. that way you don't have several all over the place breaking this idea.

Allow 1 and only 1 jump bridge per unowned or non "Nexus'd" system. - what this will do is allow an Alliance the ability to set up a small logistics network but also let them place a Jump bridge in a system closer to where they want without owning said system. To balance you can make a jump bridge to an unowned system cost more to jump ships than if you owned the system. but this would also allow for large scale attacks into an enemy territory as ill explain below.

Only allow Freighter to carry and place jump bridges. - By allowing a jump bridge to be placed by freighter not only makes for a dangerous job but if you try and place one in enemy territory then it requires careful planning and allows for greater and easier access to attack an enemy than a cyno. same cavets to placement applies as well. (must be in system with no structures giving incentive to clear a system out and still has mass pools limiting number and size of ships allowed through.) this makes attacking an enemy a littler easier for prolonged campaigns.

Make a Mass "pool" to limit abuse. - This works in the idea that if you have a frigate a bunch can go through without issue, if you have a battleship then a small handful can cross before it needs to charge, If you have a freighter or Capital class ship only 1 can go through. timers can be determined via CCP to allow for proper balance and the timer can be extended if the system is unowned, is normal if it is and shortened if the system is a nexus. This allows people to move through the nexus system faster but limits how many enter allowing for prolonged fights at a gate at the other end. you can also move in a jump bridge to an enemy system to move ships that way too.


Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:07:00 - [71]
 

Make Cynos have the Mass "pool" as well and different levels to ships jumping. - the idea was brought up that a class 1 cyno can bring in carriers and dreads and jump freighters, a class 2 also knows as covert cyno for black ops and a class three "or tech III" cyno to bring in super caps and titans. this not only limits what ships can call in super caps but adding in the Mass "Pool" will limit how many come in allowing a defensive fleet the upper hand. This mass pool can be vastly modified if say a few ships were giving the cyno ship capacitor to jump in more ships and bigger ships faster. this limits the Q.Q ing of people saying they're tired of blob super caps but still allows an attacker to get in their ships to face of against an enemy.

Titan bridges. - I don't know what to do with honestly. i only used 1 once and don't know how to fit it in with my ideas. quite honestly if all my ideas are adopted then it would almost negate them save for the idea that its a great temporary solution for a logistics network. in fact one could limit the ships that can go through to sub capital ships only( no freighters, as so you don't have a lot of caps flying through this way. This can allow for a fast deployment of sub cap fleets and enable the defense of a Tech III cyno to bring in supers.

Feel free to support or tear apart my ideas as you want. i know im not the most experienced player of null sec but if we make logistics and movement easier for alliances we can have them focus less on maintaining things and getting bored via tedium and focus more on protecting their assets and fighting and or mining and industry.

George Holden
Gallente
Syndicated Systems
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.08.20 07:53:00 - [72]
 

My interpretation of CCPs "make nullsec a home" philosophy is to change the gameplay from the current farm isk in nullsec and buy stuff in Jita to a more on-site thing. The only thing I'm building in null is some T1 ammo and the occasional drake or cane. Everything else I usually buy from Jita or the local markets which are basically seeded by Jita on a regular basis.

Making logistics harder would force you to produce and mine more in your home rather than just farming sanctums and buying everything which sounds like a good thing to me.

All the "whiners" complaining about logistics getting too hard what's the problem there? If you produce all T1, some T2 and get the ice from your home what's the point of logistics then? Doing the occasional run to the city to grab new tools and maybe a fancy gardenhose doesn't sound to bad when you can get most of the things you need from your own garden?

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.20 16:02:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: George Holden

All the "whiners" complaining about logistics getting too hard what's the problem there? If you produce all T1, some T2 and get the ice from your home what's the point of logistics then? Doing the occasional run to the city to grab new tools and maybe a fancy gardenhose doesn't sound to bad when you can get most of the things you need from your own garden?


While i agree with you that we need to support home grown production the idea of making logistics harder in and of itself will stagnate and kill any sort of economy in null sec. The reason being is simple economics. if you build everything you need in null sec and on occasion go out to buy things there is no income gained except in materials and higher outflow going to jita is in isk spent... not materials exported. This imbalance will cause any sort of basic economy out there to starve itself.

What is needed for a group of people to be able to live out in null sec is a trade chain to high sec where the markets are, and the materials to produce gear and equipment in null sec as well. you need both. that way when you have all this extra ammo you will never all use, you can export it to jita and make a boatload of isk, because you were able to produce it more cheaply than igh sec industry from harvesting your own minerals to cheaper production slots. and better BPC's. that and if you trade with other economies in null sec you can also get a greater variety of gear and more isk instead of trading with high sec.

The main issue around making isk however and creating an economy that supports players out in null sec is that you NEED an easy and simple to use Logistics network to be able to move goods to where they can sell the best. Be it high sec or a neighboring constellation/Region. Not doing so causes the player to not care about mining their system because they cant easily export the goods and rely solely on PvP or ratting for isk... which not everyone wants to do, which in turn makes people leave and its a big chain reaction. but if you bring out industry that can thrive and produce products as effectivly as high sec and give bonuses to certain types of gear, not only will you boost the null sec economy but you will also generate more income in the game as well.

Marcus Junius
Posted - 2011.08.20 19:30:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Eve combat has more in common with storming a castle gate house than it does combat in the most vast expanse imaginable, outer space.


This quote says it all.

Btw, if CCP were brave enough to make some significant movement changes to this game it could open up some very interesting gameplay and offer smaller orgs a better chance without having to sell their souls to the major players.

I only hope CCP keeps in mind the real reason that most of their CSM "advisors" ran for office and who their benefactors truly are.


Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.20 22:12:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Marcus Junius
Increase the resources of systems dramatically so the best can support 100s of players


There is an inherent problem with this statement. 100s of players doing what exactly? Mining, Exploration, Production? Or are we talking about ratting?

Alliance - ~Members/System
Shadow of xXDeathXx - 30
Goonswarm Federation - 85
Test Alliance Please Ignore - 75
Intrepid Crossing - 72
SOLAR WING - 43
Morus Mihi - 413
Imperial 0rder - 82
BricK sQuAD. - 139
Against ALL Authorities - 31
Raiden. - 34

In the top 10 Alliances by population you have 2 that do have 100s of characters for the number of systems they have sov in and 5 more that have more than 50 characters for each systems.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.21 08:34:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
There is an inherent problem with this statement...

That is a problem of mechanics allowing bloat empires and de facto slavery systems (most pets/renters are slaves in all but name).
Once that is removed the systems will have to be able to support 100's as the multi-region owners will be few and far between.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:53:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Dex Nederland
There is an inherent problem with this statement...

That is a problem of mechanics allowing ... de facto slavery systems (most pets/renters are slaves in all but name).
Once that is removed the systems will have to be able to support 100's as the multi-region owners will be few and far between.

I have not seen a discussion of how CCP intends to address "de facto slavery systems" / tribal governance that players have in place. It is unlikely the currently being discussed mechanical changes will change the relationships between large alliances and their puppet/client alliances or between CEOs/Warrior-Kings and their members/warriors. There will still be those with lots of ISK, members, and resources with the ability to demand tribute/taxes/ransoms for the right of smaller guys to mine/rat/etc in the systems they inhabit. In the vision thus far presented, the big guys still have advantages.

---transition---

Do I think movement changes will have some impact on the way the game is played? I hope so.

I want to see squadrons, wings, and fleets moving across space instead of blobs. I want to see distributed tactical & operational command (squadron / wing commanders) and fleet commanders who may not even be present on the battlefield and are worried about the strategic picture, instead of a single force commander calling shots.

Scouting squadrons, geared towards tackling, might engage a defense response fleet (cruisers & battlecruisers), only to hold it up long enough for the heavy/slow fleet to arrive. The scouting squadron is going to take losses (cheap ones), but hold up the target long enough for the heavy/slow fleet to arrive. Numbers will still matter.

The best suggestions, I have seen, is to change stargates to having a mass/time limit similar to how wormholes have mass limits. Stargates are creating relatively stable wormholes, so it makes sense. I would even go as far to introduce the changes across the entire game/cluster and have the mass/time (kg/s) of the stargates scale with system security status. For example see the below image. The equation is a simple 125m kg/s* e^(system security). This would mean that approximately 1 Battleship/sec can move around low-grade null security space. It makes moving large battleship fleets a logistical challenge. This should give a defender an advantage in terms of ship mass and will make hit-n-run style squadrons the vanguard of any invasion force as they attempt to spread out defenders and allow their own heavy ships to "safely" enter the battlespace.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


It will reduce the willingness of everyone to travel to large market hubs because you will end up waiting on at gates along popular routes. I am being a little selfish here as my current play-style is local industry, selling on local markets.

On the cluster map, include an option to view "connection health" between systems. This makes the strategic role of a fleet commander even more important as they divide their fleet up, taking different routes to reduce the likelihood their enemies will know there size, route, and disposition.

As for cynos, jump drives, & jump bridges; similar mass/time restrictions. A single Carrier/Jump Freighter is not a problem and takes relatively little time. A fleet of capital ships might take 10 minutes. I would however change the cycle time of the cyno field generator as well. Smaller corporations who use a cyno to bring in their single carrier/jump freighter have to leave their cyno ship vulnerable for minutes after the jump is over.

George Holden
Gallente
Syndicated Systems
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:35:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: George Holden on 22/08/2011 09:36:44
Mh a few interesting ideas coming up there, but to be honest none really tackles my issue.

From a grunt point of view living in Period Basis there is just no incentive to produce anything down in our region except T1 ammo and the occasional battlecruiser which I produce from scraps I've looted and some rigs.

It might sound a bit crazy since it will make my live harder I guess but right now it just doesn't seem right how it works.

Right now I'm "exporting":

- Salvage
- Raw ISK
- Faction and valuable meta 4 loot

Import directly or indirectly:

- Tech 2 modules
- Skillbooks (reasonable)
- Tech 2 ships
- Tech 1 ships (few)
- Tech 2 ammo
- Faction ammo
- Faction loot which I can't get on site

Depending on war status it takes 30min to an hour+ for a run from Jita to "our" hub. For a small fee, low risk and fast delivery times I can basically get anything I want since you can get most of the stuff from Jita.

For me import logistics should be so risky/hard that you're usually better off producing your own stuff on site. This however requires a change to moon goo distribution/T2 material requirements so it's easier to produce T2 off a region in nullsec and maybe import a few missing pieces.
Same goes for POS fuel and pretty much everything else in my opinion. You shouldn't be buying ice even though you got a belt next door just because it's more fun/easier to run anomalies and buy the fuel you need. That's how most of the things work right now "sanctums" give you that much Isk that you just don't bother with production and logistics are usually fast and "risk-free" that you don't think about buying blueprints in the first place.

Tl;dr
- make logistics (at least import if that works somehow) harder
- make on-site production easier/worth more
- nullsec from my point of view should be export much import just the crucial stuff
- tune down isk gain from anomalies since the only thing I should want to spend Isk on in nullsec is fees, insurances and clones or buying stuff off my fellow alliance mates for less than Jita prices since it's easier to produce on site

Logistics alone is just the tip of the iceberg, logistics is a "problem" because industry in nullsec is a "problem" which needs to be addressed as well.

Edit: I'm thinking hard about how to change the logistics and the first thing that pops in my mind in "spreading" out the systems more so you end up with more bridges and more jumps and even might consider traveling through a gate to shortcut those 30 lyrs into 2 gate jumps.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:50:00 - [79]
 

How about the really simple answer. The one that ties into all the other threads:

Let people put more stuff in each system.

Make more stuff spawn in each system, and further out as well.

Make the logistics chain more about in-system logistics than interstellar logistics for most people.

Oh, and make the autopilot warp to 25km instead of 15km Razz

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:26:00 - [80]
 

The problem with logistics is that it relies on so many other factors for it to work right. But we have to stop and take a look at what the idea behind logistics and movement mean in null sec.

First of all the idea of logistics is to move either personnel and or materials from one location to another. This in high sec is typically done by using the gates and planning routes on roads that are already mapped out. The difference with null sec is that you can get shot without warning using these gates. This adds to the area and makes it dangerous which to some is a boon. but to the industry and haulers is a nightmare. so the position right now that we are at is that there is only the gates to jump through to travel around as efficiently as possible.

This is partially because there isnt much to export. we as a society are importing more to null sec than we are exporting. im talking the entire area too not just large alliances bringing in moon goo. So a lot of the movement is away. I personally think this is backwards especially with how "lucrative and rich" null sec is cut out to be. there are more minerals and money to be made out there or at least that is the idea CCP has set out right now.

Now this next part is assuming that industry and mining get a HUGE boom and we now have alot of materials to export to high sec and the safer markets. What will kill the growth of the industry and mining in null sec is the use of gates to travel. Yes i know you guys want to kill the haulers and grab some loot but if the majority of the shipments cant get through people will continue to work and produce in high sec and then your target pool dries up. So there is a need for a logistics network that provides a quicker route, and safer passage for industrial and miners.

Now as i have stated in my post 70 and post 71, There are several ways we can create a logistics network and yet still retain some danger without making it impossible to hunt down shipments and harass indy pilots.

What these ideas will do is make logistics and movement easier and simpler to use. This is important because if you make it too hard people wont use it. i play the game to enjoy myself... not for a second job after all. now i have kinda only touched on the shipment aspect of logistics and not troop movement. So ill run down the movement aspect.

You have a fleet you want to move quickly to counter an incoming gang to your systems. Currently you would have to jump through 7 gates to get there and they are 5 jumps away from entering your space. (your scouts are good by the way) Right now you have the numbers advantage and strength but it relies on you getting set up first on the gate to ambush them. But thankfully with your jump bridge in your system you can jump to your nexus system, warp to the next bridge and then be in the system you need to set up, with them still being 2 jumps out... get the idea? the network not only allows ease of movement but also gives the defenders of a system a home field advantage in that movement is easier.

Another example is you have an enemy gate camping one of your systems. there is only one entrance and that leads straight into their ambush. luckily they haven't spotted your jump bridge at one of your moons because they haven't done their Intel right. so you take your response fleet, jump through the bridge and flank them, saving several of your pilots ships. Even more different scenarios can be thought of for this.

tl;dr

What im saying is make logistics easier and you can fight better and move mass better too. Doing this allows for growth and will build up the wallets while your at it.


Nessu's
Posted - 2011.08.23 02:02:00 - [81]
 

i am a jr dirictor for my corp. I used to own 2 poses myself that i ran the fuel for.

Problems i had.
1) u have to buy all you fuel in jita. it's crazy to buy it anywhere else, it just that much cheaper. even my alliance would mine ice then ship it to jita.
2) getting fuel from highsec to my poses was a pain in the rear.
i would always be running low on fuel, it felt like every time i logged onto eve i would need to do a fuel run. I was buying 1 week worth of fuel for 2 poses it was roughly 1.3 General freight containers(i would have gotten more but i lacked the isk)
Getting the fuel to our pos we need a JF or a rorq that we never had.(the isk investment is insane)

so what we did was a bunch of us in cloaky haulers running 8 jump stints back n forth till we got it done.
3)

Types of towers were a big problem for us, we would use caldari towers to fit what we wanted, but we were in glent space with glent ice. So ice mining was never an option and that just plain sucks. There needs to be one type of fuel, i should not have to go jita every week to get what i need to play my game.

Hangers-
We were lucky with this, our corp has existed be4 eve so we are a very tight group that trust each other. so we don't mind that some people had to share tabs with other or that any1 could get our ships. But when we started letting new people in we had a huge problem with security. if we can't have docking We need to have the indiv tabs for ships and mods.

Roles/rights

We need a better role right system. We had a few guys who were doing t2 production and we gave them factory rights n all that jazz, then we had a new player join. he wanted to do some t1 production but we could not give him the rights without him also being able to cancel the t2 / blueprint and capital production.

sometimes we would have unused research slots in our pos we tried to allow alliance mates and the public to use are unused slot.(we set the job slot to public and charged a small amount) but no1 was able to actual use it with out rights. So that needs to be fixed

--------Ideas--------

There needs to be a way for small Independent corps like mine to get fuel in decent amounts to our pos's OR have a Fuel ship that has Jump drive and a low skill point investment / cost.

there needs to be one type of fuel, it's nice that eve has all this depth n stuff but it's a pain in the ass for people who just want to kill internet space ships.

it would be nice to have poses redone. Right now they are a nightmare. ive setup and taken down alot of poses and each time it's me sitting at my computer for a few hours alt-tabbed watching you tube. It's no fun, so give me a freaking que.

Roles and rights need a major change to allow a flexible system. Not only that but players should not be able to cancel other players jobs unless they have a greater or a given right to do so.




Bob Niac
Gallente
freelancers inc
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.23 05:25:00 - [82]
 

Why not have strategic arrays only anchor-able at TCUs? JB at TCU, jam gates, jump bridge goes down. Of course, this probably means adding a bubble to the TCU and putting said modules inside... or jsut making stuff like JBs part of the TCU upgrade mechanic.

So TCU gets level V [sov stat] ... You can then install:

Cyno Jammer OR Generator OR bridge for Strategic
Bridge OR Orbital (so planets, ore, moons) Monitor for Industry
POS style shielding OR System Scanner for Military

Just examples, but you get the idea. End line combinations that can be tailored toward the system's play style, and moving key Arrays form their Stations to the TCU. This provides and "I'm Here" beacon for JB systems, and among other things, limits the amount of movement related Arrays in one system.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:31:00 - [83]
 

Overall: logistics is boring, but is often done for a sort of 'balancing factor' in regards of large rich alliances. I hope its not nerfed as to making life in null even more boring. It would be better idea to rather adjust the reasons why logistics are needed.

For instance I think some kind of timer/masslimit per 24 hours for jump bridges would be better idea than for instance reducing cargo capacities forcing people to do even more trips. I dont propose this, I simply wanted to make an example of a change that wouldnt make life more boring. Technically the fuel requirement for the bridge already accomplishes this sort of limitation however.

Jump bridges:
How about moving jump bridges away from poses, as in not being a pos-module but rather a sov-module? That would allow better chance for camping the bridges as lone travelers wouldnt have the benefit of pos guns, and camping could be done by any ship rather than SBs. Also the bridges would be even more like stargates. Im not sure if this is good enough, but at least there wouldnt be need for a pos reducing the amount of logistics needed. If you want, you could even make the bridges a beacon like stargates showing up on everyones overview.

I was in NC before the big dip, and the jump bridge network was completely ridiculous in size, spanning more regions than I can remember offhand. Also, since the JB map was pretty much public knowledge, downloadable from net, you can tell how much risk there was using the network. ie. very little.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:55:00 - [84]
 

Jump drives are to easy. They are both tools to avoid battle, by jumping to a cyno close to a station and ambush utilities that are impossible to counter because you can be gone before anybody gets to you.

How about changing how they work?

Lets say you light the cyno and the capital hits the red button that says "Jumpdrive Active". The view for the capital changes into the map and you see a little red dot move to the target system with a dynamic speed. Any jump will take 5 minutes, no matter if you do a short jump or not. You can go and fiddle with that number based on ship types. Blackops should be a little faster.

Jump portals should work different too. If you sit in your trusty ol' titan and hit the portal button, a bubble should show up around you. When you jump any ship that is inside the bubble (that bubble doesn't do anything, it's just a range indicator) will jump with you. Yes, in my eyes a titan that is bridging 200 BS into a system should be willing to commit to a fight. If you have a hostile covert (very brave man) inside the bridge bubble you take him with you.

Since you are moving over the map while your jump drive active, the client got plenty of time to load the target system. Black screens ain't no fun.

If your cyno dies before you reach the system, you are in limbo until somebody in your fleet in the target system will light another one. Maybe with the option to enter a WH (or any stargate) that happen to be in system while in limbo so you don't end up stuck forever.

With replacing hot drops with warm drops you give frig fleets the advantage back they once had. Being a viable option to do ambushes and raids into hostile waters.

It may even be worth it to reconsider system-to-system-movement alltogether while you are on it. With the limbo idea you can change the 1-to-1 stargate connection to 1-to-many and solve the lagged-to-*beep*-problem when entering a system with a gate camp. You could remove highways and still be able to travel quite quickly.

Cregg Neir
Posted - 2011.08.23 22:55:00 - [85]
 

There should be a practical upper limit to the size of territory that any alliance can hold. I don't think that the idea of scaling up the difficulties as size increases is enough. There should be a ceiling. No alliance should be able to dominate the whole null sec map under any condition. Making the logistics for such too hard is one way to do this. But I don't think this should be left to chance.

There should be a functionality that decreases an alliance's hold over space that they control but are not using. Owning a system without using it should be impossible.



Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.08.24 01:09:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Cregg Neir
There should be a practical upper limit to the size of territory that any alliance can hold. I don't think that the idea of scaling up the difficulties as size increases is enough. There should be a ceiling. No alliance should be able to dominate the whole null sec map under any condition.



Its called a coalition; a group of alliances control large sections of space. The problem is how do you prevent a coalition from happening. If you cap the sov limits of an alliance or corp, it would be relativity simple to create alts. If you say only an alliance with X corps or only a corp with X members count, then you get into screwing over the smaller corps and alliances that want to try and take some space.

If you really went at it and disregarded the whole eve is a sandbox thing, you could physically limit the amount of people you could set as blue/lightblue. But I have a feeling alliances would set the majority of eve as red, or if you limit that... Also good luck deciding on what that cap should be. There is a whole mess of problems that arise when trying to find a hard limit to these without horribly imbalancing stuff.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.24 10:32:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Thur Barbek
Its called a coalition; a group of alliances control large sections of space...

That's a cop-out. Of course the mega-alliances can "just" fragment to hold the same amount of space just, but humans grow apart and sooner rather than later tensions will collapse such constructs ..
The quest is to find the sweet spot where fragmentation occurs because its advantageous (huge ISK/time cost if not) while minimizing the time to collapse.

Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.08.24 19:47:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Thur Barbek
Its called a coalition; a group of alliances control large sections of space...

That's a cop-out. Of course the mega-alliances can "just" fragment to hold the same amount of space just, but humans grow apart and sooner rather than later tensions will collapse such constructs ..
The quest is to find the sweet spot where fragmentation occurs because its advantageous (huge ISK/time cost if not) while minimizing the time to collapse.


what? I'm describing the present. All you have to do is open the map and look at it, this very second. One coalition of alliances controls the majority of 0.0 sov space.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.25 06:51:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Thur Barbek
what?..

Yes, and many of them are controlling multiple regions, have holdings in far away places and share bridges and what not.
What if price for large swaths of space became increasingly (read: prohibitively) expensive?
What if bridge sharing had a huge surcharge (ex. 4x fuel for non-alliance members)?
What if capitals (all) were to require something more than a alt in a Kestrel to move?
What if ..

If mechanics were to allow everything but highly encourage something specific, the map would be a lot more fluid as it will all come down to people .. manipulative, scheming, selfserving people.
There has been but a handful in Eve that could keep a coalition together through hard times, even the mighty SirMolle eventually threw in the towel.

Dr Cedric
Caldari
Orbital Industry and Research.
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:46:00 - [90]
 

So, I was just posting in "Smallholding" thread and an idea came to me that might be of interest to the logistics section of this idea gathering forum.

One of the comments made by Greyscale is that as the largeness of an entity increases, its logistical situation should become more difficult to sustain, thereby keeping groups from growing too large (that is unless they are determined enough to find a way around the logistics issue!)

My idea for logistics, specifically the movement of supplies from one place to another is this:

Buoy Chains

Imagine a string of buoys anchored in space from an entity's home base to wherever it is they are delivering/shipping supplies from. These buoys would allow only a certain ship type (most likely industrials) to use them to jump from buoy to buoy (you'd probably need either a new module that fits only to an industrial, or a new logistics ship type that can use industrial logistics buoys). These buoys would need fuel to operate (similar to a POS, with less micromanagement),and could be set up by single players, corps, or alliances for use by single players, corps or alliances. Alternatively, they could be managed by a third party, who gives password access to travel using these buoys (and who may or may not be the one providing any possible defense for the travelers). This could be one way that independent trade hubs could be brought to light. Only certain ship types (or ships fitting a certain jump module) could get to the buoy-chain destination, could drop off or buy items there and then return via the same chain.

The idea would be that the more often you use these buoys, the more often they need to be refueled, the more often they are popping up an "industrial cyno beacon" on the overview, and the more often another entity has an opportunity to gank your logistics...or the more often you can lay a trap to gank the gankers...

If an alliance is using them for module/fuel/whatever shipping, they'd probably need a few players to act as buoy guards while ships are moving. The same would be true for the third party buoy operator.

In any case, this could easily add a new dynamic of ship movement and small gang/large gang interaction opportunities.

As always, thanks for reading and for any constructive criticism/comments

Ced



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