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Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:15:00 - [151]
 

Industry is a weak point of mine but I have been the guy who keeps are being asked to feed the industry people with minerals

I would like to see a capital ship that is only meant to mine empire based ore. It is very ineffective (crappy) at mining rare ores.

A Carrier base ship with Fighter size mining drone - fighter per type of ore, Only produce fighters that can mine, Veld, Scodite, Plag and Pyro.
An faction ore ship?

this would help me fill the order of trit and other minerals need to produce the ships required to defend the null sec empire.

Is it possible to only allow t2 manufacturing arrays to be anchored in security of 0.4 or less. The Empires may be pushing to keep all free lance production of t2 and T3 ships out of (monitored) empire space in hope to keep control over their space vs the whim of a pod pilots.

Couch Jason'Acinom
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:29:00 - [152]
 

I would love to see the rorqual expand its industrial mode to produce other items other than just compressed ore.

I would love to be able to flip industrial mode to be able to:
-- make ammo on the fly for those long fights
-- Auto repair of those ships next to Rorqual in deployment mode. Costing mineral per 100hp of armor or Structure repaired.
-- make Replacement Drones on the fly for those lost in battle
-- Refine ore into minerals at refining effeciency worse than a POS requiring reasonable skills to make it par with a POS. The effeciency cap also should be there as it is not a station.

These would be T2 industrial modes, maybe one for each race type.

Magnus Erlendsson
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.26 10:42:00 - [153]
 

If you want different industrial modes for the Rorqual, why not go all out and have a T3 modular industrial base ship. Make it capital size like the Rorq and have a variety of industrial arrays and subs which can be fitted to it. Not sure they'd fit in with the current T3 offensive/defensive/engineering/electronics/propulsion subsystem split, but something like that might work.

Perhaps it could fit low level production arrays, or mobile research labs, or things like ore compressors and mining support subsystems.

Or I might be talking nonsense Smile

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 13:49:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Bill Toralen
If you want Null Sec to have an indy boost why not nerf plexes? Get the corp members out of their Tengu's and force them to something with the VAST resources they already have at their disposal, as opposed to being 9-5 Concord bounty hunters? Maybe even get the corporation leaders to loosen their fists on those precious moon refineries?



PLEX's is a win-win system. I doubt CCP ever will remove it.

I fail to see why anyone should be forced to do anything in the game they do not want to do. Pvp players want to pvp. Industrial wants to do industry. Pvp player has low sec and null sec etc to do what they like to do. Industry has empire. The suggestion as I understand is to remove advanced industry from empire. But I fail to see what benefit this would bring to what we currently have. Or as I wrote in an earlier post: what is it that needs to be fixed?


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.27 14:03:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Couch Jason'Acinom
I would love to see the rorqual expand its industrial mode to produce other items other than just compressed ore.

I would love to be able to flip industrial mode to be able to:
-- make ammo on the fly for those long fights
-- Auto repair of those ships next to Rorqual in deployment mode. Costing mineral per 100hp of armor or Structure repaired.
-- make Replacement Drones on the fly for those lost in battle
-- Refine ore into minerals at refining effeciency worse than a POS requiring reasonable skills to make it par with a POS. The effeciency cap also should be there as it is not a station.

These would be T2 industrial modes, maybe one for each race type.



no.

Manufacturing -> use a damn POS.
Repair -> fit a damn remote rep module.
Refining -> use a damn POS.

it's not like the rorq ISN'T sitting in a damn POS the whole time anyway... if you're in sovereign space, this is even easier, since you can use a small POS as a temporary home (tardsec had better be med, or large)...

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:06:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: silentalleycat
jumping back to high sec 2 to 3 times a week with my rhea full of compressed abc ores and returning with goods for sale because the manufacturingslots were rubbish in nullsecand more profitable making those goods in high sec and shipping them back in


And CCP Grayscale's solution to this is to ban T2 production in Empire and make it an exclusive null sec activity. Anyone else than me that smells something fishy in such solution ?

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 18:18:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Miranda Starborn on 27/08/2011 18:18:50
Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: Miranda Starborn

Now, what I do not understand is what is wrong with this, and what it is that needs to be fixed?



I thought that can be taken from all the posts in this thread, which you hopefully read all, the mining thread and the sov/smallholding threads.



Did you get my point with writing the paragraph before I asked my question? (The one you edited out.)

Jade Greenfire
Posted - 2011.08.28 07:11:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Ms Michigan

2) Speaking of ORE - people complain about Drone regions - too much mineral drone drops I guess? But here is my thing - I don't see a problem (never lived there though so flame on) with this. They don't get Sanctums and other cool things - they have to have something right? This allows them more ore easier to build cap ships and move out of that area right? If the ore amount is still TOO much ---then nerf it a little and I suggest CCP look at BUFFING faction drones. This way you can buff drone part drops in drone regions and give them something good to be there for.


Problem here is those alliances in that area dont sell the caps, instead they amass massive fleets of supercarriers, that are extremely hard to stand against. What they are not using for production, they are selling and becoming insanely rich, to a point where they can afford 600 billion on a mercenary contract for something like 3 months and still be able to pay that amount indefinetley

Jade Greenfire
Posted - 2011.08.28 07:13:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Miraqu

The alliances have no problem with industry.

Moonminerals are rather irrelevant for industry (yes hard to believe for someone not in null?) because you never have the right combinations in your space and the average industrialist won't see even a scrap of them anyway, except he is the freighter pilot moving them to Jita.

Moons are alliance assets, most industry stuff works on the corp level. Getting a share is wishful thinking and not even worth to considerate. As long as gathering them is not a player activity, this won't change.

You will have to move to Jita anyways either to buy the moonminerals you also need or to buy the reactions. Also you usually need stuff for all races which alone would be a pain to react. Added into that is the POS-mechanic where shutting down a reactor also means the privileges to wreck most of your defense.

Maybe if you could react those minerals at an outpost this would be worth thinking about. If it stays as it is, this will not change.


0.0 industry means building stuff and taking your own security seriously. The 0.0 industrialist builds and does at least PvP to defend oneself.

In the end its mostly warped perceptions of the other. Nullsec means working together. Which means together at defense of your home. A defensive fleet with 10 players is a joke. On average a third of the players is online, so a successful nullsec corp is 50 or more players with usually more than 20 mil sp each, while an usual highsec industrial corp is about 3 - 15 players without alts.


Totally agree.
What most dont understand is that just to do some basic reactions with moon goo, you have to have a network of pos's set up over multiple systems, and they take fraking forever to set up and pulldown (20 mins to unanchor a single reactor is a pain in the arse). You need some POS's just to mine the goo, then some more just to do the actual reactions and thats not even covering the possibilty that you have to bring in some goo from jita to do some of these reactions in the first place.
Then after thats done you have to transport the product to Jita, as alot of these end products wont sell in 0.0.
Moon mining is at a point whereby for the individual players it is too cost prohibitive. Alliances do it, but largely there is largely only 1 moon that is worth their time in doing it "Tech", the others still produce some revenue but are only worthwhile if combined with other goo in more complex reactions.
Originally by: Mentira
my few ideas to the whole mess :)

1. Interlink the system upgrades in 0.0 that you cannot get to military 2 unless you have mining 1. You cannot get Military 4 unless you have mining 3 and an outpost. That attracts NPC pirates due to high activity in the system and you spawn more sanctums. 0.0 dwellers love sanctums and in order to get them they need miners in the system. To have a local market you need an outpost. Maybe 1 Outpost is enough for all systems around the outpost system if they have the same sov holder. But all the sudden 0.0 residents will need local industry in order to upgrade their systems and then even the worse 0.0 system should be able to have sanctums again

2. Redo the outpost stuff. First of all the role system sucks, no corp will give you rights to do the things you wanna do / need to do with "your" POS because of corp security. And without protection of your miner/production assets from theft you're not going to leave them there.

3. Redo the moongoo stuff.



A suggestion might be:
1. Fix Alliances, limit their sizes and standings ie limit amounts of others they can blue etc.
2. Address Sov Mechanics - limit the number of systems a alliance can hold sov in..
3. Fix PoS's - For something that is supposed to be "A Player Owned Structure" why should they soley be corp controlled ? If individuals could control a POS then it would open up the options people have, they could choose to be in a corp/alliance or not it would be their choice. Rember space is vast and in 0.0 you shouldnt have to be in a corp/alliance if you dont want to be, just to do industry.
4.Make low end moons worth something again, make their products part of ALL ship building requirements inconjuction with minerals. To do this you would open up moon mining to low sec and high sec. Make moon resources depletable & random. In that way the amounts of various goo's being introduced into the game could be fixed and a variety of production opportunities would be opened up. Supply and demand would still dictate prices in the economy, but moons would have a importance to everyone in all regions high/low sec & nul.
5. This will be controversial, there are many factions in the game, maybe have faction caravans guarded by faction navies, that move goods to and from Jita to various 0.0 trade hubs. This could also open up/bring faction warfare to 0.0, that currently dosent happen.

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:06:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Miranda Starborn
Edited by: Miranda Starborn on 27/08/2011 18:18:50
Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: Miranda Starborn

Now, what I do not understand is what is wrong with this, and what it is that needs to be fixed?



I thought that can be taken from all the posts in this thread, which you hopefully read all, the mining thread and the sov/smallholding threads.



Did you get my point with writing the paragraph before I asked my question? (The one you edited out.)


Yes I got your point.
But at the same time, I rather believe that it does not apply fully.

Nobody has stated that the trade and flow between high, low and null is a bad idea per se. But the way how this flow is currently shaped, needs to change.

I am also tired of the rants, mostly by players who do not even bother to read a few pages and either just try to tell CCP to leave highsec alone, have read some points and now believe that the world will end or simply stating that everything is fine and should be left alone and that these idea threads are pointless.

You were then simply one too much :), for that I am sorry.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.29 05:35:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: Miranda Starborn
Edited by: Miranda Starborn on 27/08/2011 18:18:50
[
I am also tired of the rants, mostly by players who do not even bother to read a few pages and either just try to tell CCP to leave highsec alone, have read some points and now believe that the world will end or simply stating that everything is fine and should be left alone and that these idea threads are pointless.

You were then simply one too much :), for that I am sorry.



Actually you one of the only nullsecdwellers i ve met on these forums that isn't all about ''we don't need carebear industrialist/miners here in nullsec'' and i respect that and your points of view , but i am afraid alo of the panic and ranting is or was pre emptive, i m kind of guilty aswell
Atleast we both agree that nullsec industry needs a buff but not with nerfing high sec industry, pretty sure there is a balanced solution somewhere

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.29 21:27:00 - [162]
 

i think ccp need to double the amount of upgrades an outpost can have. for example a tier1 outpost can have 2 basic upgrades. this would greatly help industry in null sec. for example it would allow all outpost owners fit a basic recycling centre in all outposts as well as a basic upgrade relevant to that outpost type.

while minmatar outpost is still the best to refine ores/ice in the others could have recycling for reprocessing loot only. this would then help non industry players help their alliances gather minerals.

Hallacar
Posted - 2011.08.30 00:52:00 - [163]
 

The push to make 0.0 self sufficient is a bad idea. There already is enough risk vs reward built against the game evidenced by the fact that players will claw over coveted 0.0 space.

Making 0.0 more self sufficient just makes empire moot. So to those that don't want the high stress lifestyle of endless risk management, the game will bear less for you. Nerfs to make 0.0 more profitable does not add to the game, eliminates the symbiosis between empire and 0.0, and really just kills commerce as the great powers wont need to buy anything.

If anything, nerfing the economy will help entrench the great powers in 0.0 and eliminate opportunity to those that don't want to rent space from the DRF or goons.

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.30 08:24:00 - [164]
 

Eve has always been about "adapt or die".
So if industrial players would be a benefit to an alliance in nullsec they would adapt or disappear.

So I am positive that the attitude towards industrialists would vanish in a heartbeat if they were necessary or helpful to be a power in nullsec space.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.30 09:12:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
Eve has always been about "adapt or die".
So if industrial players would be a benefit to an alliance in nullsec they would adapt or disappear.

So I am positive that the attitude towards industrialists would vanish in a heartbeat if they were necessary or helpful to be a power in nullsec space.



Indeed you made a good point there and i must add this works inboth ways,most high sec dwellers have a real negative opinion about nullsec alliances
Alot of players i know would love to go to nullsec and try to make a fortune there, but despise the politics and gun ho mentallity of the majority nullsec players
It will take more than a industry/mining buff to get more industrialist and miners into nullsec
There been many rants against the proposed ideas but also some good ideas
Will be just a question of waiting for ccp greyscale to see what he comes up with

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:14:00 - [166]
 

I think nullsec industry could be fixed fairly easily based on what the devs indicated they want to achieve.

1. Fix corp/alliance roles system to allow them to designate structures or slots for corporation usage or corporation member usage. corporation member usage allows personal use that's not part of the corporation jobs list.

2. Give alliances a reason to allow more corps to drop Stations in systems, and also allow a corporation to drop them in nearby systems (see my reply in territory and conquest).

3. Moon materials should be finite for a given moon, after which they should respawn randomly within the region. Of course i fear this would lead alliances to take ALL the moons.

4. Allow station owners to cancel buy/sell orders within their station.

enjoy!




Stan Durden
Posted - 2011.08.31 08:26:00 - [167]
 

I just want to say that T2 should be cheeper (easier to get/make) then pirate faction. A Vagabond selling for more than a Phantasm is just silly. Whatever needs to happen, let the carebears have what they need to build the T2. I like blowing it up. If it is too hard to make there isn't as much to blow up.

And perhaps give me a reason to want to protect carebears. If I know that if I can keep the area clear of enemy then my indy friends can build a shiny new ship then I take an interest in them being able to do their thing. At this time it just seems way too complicated and involves way too many towers for me to think its reasonable to worry about it. I can't really effect all that much as a combat guy unless I can get some caps together and roll some towers I guess. But even then I don't know what I get for the effort of helping the carebears have their towers.

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:51:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Stan Durden
I just want to say that T2 should be cheeper (easier to get/make) then pirate faction. A Vagabond selling for more than a Phantasm is just silly. Whatever needs to happen, let the carebears have what they need to build the T2. I like blowing it up. If it is too hard to make there isn't as much to blow up.

And perhaps give me a reason to want to protect carebears. If I know that if I can keep the area clear of enemy then my indy friends can build a shiny new ship then I take an interest in them being able to do their thing. At this time it just seems way too complicated and involves way too many towers for me to think its reasonable to worry about it. I can't really effect all that much as a combat guy unless I can get some caps together and roll some towers I guess. But even then I don't know what I get for the effort of helping the carebears have their towers.


What you get are cheaper ships and modules you can pew pew in, more choice on your local market hub at way more reasonable price
Biggest problem is making it balanced and workable for all parties
There always will be people who whine about or people who will not even dare to venture beyonda 0,5 system without a 200 men fleet to protect their shuttle
Nullsec alliances need reasons to accept miners in their ranks
My opinion is to create a system where a alliance with a balanced mix of pvp ers and industrial pilots is actually rewarded
There are some really good ideas and people really want to get their hands dirty in nullsec space but at the moment there is rarely a incentive to go their , or for the nullsec alliance to accept them
Some good ideas i read are
- linking military upgrades with the industrial upgrades
- overhaul of the standing / treaty system that makes renting more openly and easier
- penalize alliances ( moneywise) who have too many unused systems
- upgrade the number and quality of manufacturing/ research and refining slots , so they are equal to the highsecslots
- make moongoo more pi like they reactions still being done in a pos but make it so a single person controls one pi like moongooextractor not the whole alliance and makes it finitive
This will make moongoo income more unreliable another incentive to create other avenues for their income

These just a fewideas i read in these feedbackthreads i think will work

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:57:00 - [169]
 

I forgot one more thing
EVE is indeed a pvp game first but pvpers also need to understand tht without a industry they all soon will be flying a ibis into battle so there has to be a. Mentallity change for both sides , industrialist need to realize that a Cta is just as important for them as. The next mining ops and pay out , but so do pvpers that miners are not soley their for target practise or slave away for them but there to provide them with payable ships and modules

Spanking Monkeys
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:31:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Spanking Monkeys on 01/09/2011 12:31:21
my major concern is atm we have a system that works for industry in eve.
t2 prices are low, no one is complaining that mods/ships are in short supply.

to change everything with t2 production and basic industry you need good reasons and good justification. i dont see either tbh. but hey ccp will do as they wish.

starting at the bottom and working up.
you will need to change every pos to either be standard, same cpu and same bonses(everyone knows only 2 types of pos are realy used for reactions) or redistribute all races ice types through all race systems. other wise peopel living in caldari or gal space have the advantage of having useible isotopes leaving everyone to import the rest from jita. they woudl still ahve to import defencive pos isotopes(min and amarr) but on the whole they would be ok and pretty much make do.

all moon mins would need to be moved. how you gonna make any t2 in the south with no tech? you not. so every region now has every moon type in the right numbers to make that 'regional market' viable.

so now on to the guts of the t2 production. so you want 0.0 to be better at it. ok how? you want to increase the return rate of inventions? or change the production to use less minerials for the standard -4 -4 print?
if you use return rates on inventions, poeple will invent in 0.0 and build in empire cos its easier. if you change the mins required in 0.0 peopel will invent in empire and build in 0.0. so the indy guys will still need to be in 2 places regardless of ccp's actions.
for high end invention 'ships' you will need to change all exploration sites to drop all dycrptors of all races otherwise your still importing from jita and its not locallised like ccp want.

now we get on to datacores. most datacores will come from jita for peopels invents, no matter how many r&d alts you have you cant make enough to be a serious t2 producer. so another thing yourll have to import to 0.0. but hey your moving pos fuel anyhow right?

so current working system, that works fine no ones is complaining and you wanna change it to a system thats different, has more pit falls with no real gain unless you change every fundimental of the game(race drop locations, redistribution of moon min, ice belts etc etc)
your reasions do not justify it imo, but hey go ahead

Marka Jita
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:34:00 - [171]
 

What is this about? "Destroy all what is working until now and make mess"?

Eve becomes to WoW? I hate those situations. I quit WoW because of this after 3 years of active play and now if CCP will destroy my small-lovely-solo-relaxing-enjoing-hi-sec live in Eve I will quit also this game and become older ...

Please, please .... don't change working things! Crying or Very sad

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.09.04 04:46:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 19/08/2011 01:04:23
Want to give the biggest boost to nullsec industry possible?


Ban NPC Corps. Scratch that, make it so that NPC corps are only available to Trial Accounts. If you're still not in a corp by two weeks, or are kicked out of a corp, you become a 'Free Agent' who can be individually wardec'd for a slightly lower fee then dec'ing a corp. Because low-level industry in nullsec will always, no matter what you do, be inferior to highsec industry because a nullsec low/mid miner has to deal with constant threat from other players while in a slow and defenseless ship, deal with the logistics of living in nullsec, and dealing with PVP commitments (or rent) that come with living in 0.0; all while directly competing with an NPC corp in highsec with the exact same ship mining the exact same ore but has zero risk, zero impediments and zero obligations. The only problem for the highsec low/mid miner is that he has to undercut countless of thousands of other NPC corp miners, because all of whom are equally invulnerable (except for the rare Hulkageddon) and thus there is no way for any of them to eliminate their competition. So really, the nullsec miner loses every time.

Then, high-SP nullsec players, taking advantage of a freighter alt in, again, an NPC Corp can slowly haul the compressed minerals bought at rock bottom prices across New Eden with, again, zero risk to where it can be jump freightered right past lowsec straight into an alliance station safe and sound.

If these high-SP nullsec supply lines from hisec could be disrupted, say, by not letting their freighters be freakin' invulnerable, it could actually be worthwhile for 0.0 alliances to bring in miners and builders for their own sake. Hisec piracy could expand beyond the suicide gank and hisec miners could command a higher value price for their work instead of grovelling for crumbs.


Good points. I always thought that people shouldn't be in an NPC corp by default that they should be corp-less. I like the individual war dec thing too. : )

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.09.04 04:49:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 04/09/2011 04:56:07
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Eve's economy, though functional, has a number of things that are rather backwards. One of the backwards bits is the flows of types of wealth. ISK is just another commodity, like anything else in Eve. It takes time and effort to collect it.

The only thing that makes it different is that it is the one commodity considered "money." The concept of a common medium of exchange requires an agreement by everyone involved, this is what makes something money. This sort of evolution takes place in population centers, not in the lawless wilderness.

Some may think it radical, but here's the basic proposition - Remove ISK from Null sec and remove a majority of the other resources from high sec to low, null and WHs. High sec will be the source of ISK, and everyplace else will be the source of what ISK is used to purchase.

Plenty of ISK will flow outwards and plenty of materials will flow inwards.


Wow - that is radically COOL my friend! +1 It would need some studying but I think it would work. You could trade Money (i.e give them a physical bundle of cash like one would do in the mafia) but that is it. Bartering would take on a totally cool whole new level. Industry would blossom!

I love it - I want to hear CCP Greyscale's and Team BFF and Dr. Ejyog's Ideas on this too.

Also - Side note - if you do anything to buff indy in 0.0 - FIX CORP ROLES AND INTERFACE PLEASE!

Mistress Ducktape
Posted - 2011.09.04 08:01:00 - [174]
 

How about tying invention chance to the current cynosaural jamming effect present in the system.
Empire remains unchanged
Can't cynojam your invention 0.0 system if you want increased profitability. Leading to Incursions getting done in 0.0 if it occurs.
Can't think of how to apply this to low sec.

Might be easier to consider security status as a sliding scale 1.0 is 0, 0.9 is 1, -1.0 is 20, this value is added to your invention chance. Could cap it at 10 (0.0 to -1.0) and make it 15 if sov is held

High sec invention cannot be removed, how do you compensate those who have all encryption methods and science skills at 5 and supplement their invention with datacores? Simply throwing SP (choice based, via petition as some people might want to try 0.0) will not work. It's not simply someone kicking over your carefully constructed sand castle, it's someone removing the sandbox from underneath you and boxing you out of it.
There is no other combat-free method requiring the time sink than t2 invention that gives the same sort of accomplishment back for your efforts.

Evil Zeb
Posted - 2011.09.04 11:05:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Mistress Ducktape
How about tying invention chance to the current cynosaural jamming effect present in the system.
Empire remains unchanged
Can't cynojam your invention 0.0 system if you want increased profitability. Leading to Incursions getting done in 0.0 if it occurs.
Can't think of how to apply this to low sec.

Might be easier to consider security status as a sliding scale 1.0 is 0, 0.9 is 1, -1.0 is 20, this value is added to your invention chance. Could cap it at 10 (0.0 to -1.0) and make it 15 if sov is held

High sec invention cannot be removed, how do you compensate those who have all encryption methods and science skills at 5 and supplement their invention with datacores? Simply throwing SP (choice based, via petition as some people might want to try 0.0) will not work. It's not simply someone kicking over your carefully constructed sand castle, it's someone removing the sandbox from underneath you and boxing you out of it.
There is no other combat-free method requiring the time sink than t2 invention that gives the same sort of accomplishment back for your efforts.


that would be fine. all you need is a jf, an npc station and the high sec set up you already own.
jump you monthly batch of invents to the npc station. run them and then jump back results with a 90% hit rate. awesom

you know ccp will break invention and industry with has taken years to be as balanced as it is now.
dont fix what isnt broken, invention and production isnt broken, so **** knows what there playing at

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:16:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: pussnheels
- penalize alliances (moneywise) who have too many unused systems

I am not sure if this can actually be done. There are already systems that should not be claimed, like Z-XX2J or L-6BE1. The owning alliances are spending at least 6m/day to hold the system, spent at least 300m to claim the system, and likely also have a POS to defend the TCU, an additional 2.5M+/day (small standard POS). I do not think it is unreasonable to assume a minimum daily cost of baseline sov at 10m/day. I am not sure if increasing the cost of sov will actually result in alliances claiming less territory.

It seems pretty clear that most alliance leadership is not interested in 1) developing their space, 2) having "soft" residents who would develop their space, and 3) profiting from their space beyond R32/R64 moon materials & taxing their pilots ratting & exploration.

2) is an interesting one because they also complain about a lack of interesting objectives/targets for small fleets. Common risk aversion tells them to avoid providing such targets themselves. There is not a readily apparent reward for having a group of relatively "soft" residents focused not on combat, but system development & use.

In general, CCP should consider in-game fleet, corp, & alliance tools as a way to improve the game and make time-consuming task more straight forward and emphasis.

As an example; rapid assessment of a corporation's wealth both in liquid & fixed assets vs the current market? All the data exist, between market aggregation tools (Eve-Central) and the API it is possible to get a pretty good estimate. As a CEO, why do I need to rely on these tools, it should be a quick click in the NeoCom.

Esheleen
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:11:00 - [177]
 

Not being someone who enjoys ratting or running anomolies or other typical 0.0 income earning activities I set out to build myself a good T2 invention and producton income to feed isk to my pvp main - someone who has been based in 0.0 for longer than I can remember.

I got to the stage where I was running two large high sec POS and producing up to 60 hacs and similar ships every five days. I was inventing all of the ships, producing the components, producing the T1 ships and the ships themselves. I had two maxed invention chars and a small army of alts with necessary build and copy skills. I bought and sold almost everything in Jita and worked on the basis of building a wide variety of ships each batch based on current demands and profits. One POS did nothing but copy, the other was for invention and building components and T1 whilst the final ships were assembled in stattion.

I've since given up on the T2 production side due to the tedium of it but before I did I considered on several occassions whether to move the operation to 0.0. There were several reasons I didn't which were:

Volume: Despite being in AAA I found there was no way for me to shift that number of ships with reasonable certainty every 5 days which meant my capital got jammed up and I had to stop producing.

Logistics: Even doing this three jumps out from Jita I found the shifting of a freighter and a half of stuff every five days plus pos fuel etc and moving stuff from pos to station a pain. Trying to do this in 0.0 as it stands would be horrible.

Slots: I was using 36 copy slots, 20 invention slots, 45 component build slots, 10 T1 ship slots, 20 station slots and 5 or so more slots for RAM etc. Getting the same number in 0.0 is going to be tough outside of POS

POS timers v build cycle: I always used 3 run BPCs to try and reduce the clieck fest. Most 3 ship batches build in just under 5 days so i used the same cycle time for the components. In 0.0 any bored people with a few supers could attack and destroy my POS well within that cycle and that's 5 bil isk of WIP gone.

So what do you need:
Central neutral hubs in 0.0 (maybe concord protected) to buy and sell from. The hubs will need to be in jump range of freighters to make it possible.

Complete revamp of the contracts and corp role management system so it's easier to do this on a team basis without having to risk a rip off from one of your corp mates as much as you do now. Possible corporate hangers for freighters and JFs would be a start.

Lots more slots in 0.0 stations or some system to allow the extension of timers on industrial pos to allow the "on the beach" situation to be protected.

Plus other posts around POS fule ice, data cores etc

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.09.06 05:36:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Originally by: pussnheels
- penalize alliances (moneywise) who have too many unused systems

I am not sure if this can actually be done. There are already systems that should not be claimed, like Z-XX2J or L-6BE1. The owning alliances are spending at least 6m/day to hold the system, spent at least 300m to claim the system, and likely also have a POS to defend the TCU, an additional 2.5M+/day (small standard POS). I do not think it is unreasonable to assume a minimum daily cost of baseline sov at 10m/day. I am not sure if increasing the cost of sov will actually result in alliances claiming less territory.

It seems pretty clear that most alliance leadership is not interested in 1) developing their space, 2) having "soft" residents who would develop their space, and 3) profiting from their space beyond R32/R64 moon materials & taxing their pilots ratting & exploration.

2) is an interesting one because they also complain about a lack of interesting objectives/targets for small fleets. Common risk aversion tells them to avoid providing such targets themselves. There is not a readily apparent reward for having a group of relatively "soft" residents focused not on combat, but system development & use.

In general, CCP should consider in-game fleet, corp, & alliance tools as a way to improve the game and make time-consuming task more straight forward and emphasis.

As an example; rapid assessment of a corporation's wealth both in liquid & fixed assets vs the current market? All the data exist, between market aggregation tools (Eve-Central) and the API it is possible to get a pretty good estimate. As a CEO, why do I need to rely on these tools, it should be a quick click in the NeoCom.


Sounds like good points to me too. +1

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.06 12:51:00 - [179]
 

I specifically have a comment about this statement:

"Geared towards T2
Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"

The issue I have is that the progression is to direct. In metaphor with another MMO, High sec is like the major cities, lowsec is all the levels in between, nullsec is end-game and wormholes are raids/dailies.

With that kind of industrial mentality eve will continue to be boring in terms of pve. I think you should start considering ALL gameplay "endgame" or raid quality. Don't tack down a "level" of goods to each area, but instead scale the value of the return to the amount of risk. Nullsec is a risky place, but not NEARLY as risky as wormholes, and I would argue a little less risky (in home areas) than lowsec.

I might term it like this.

High sec for Trading, training, and public events, Low-sec for high value specialty items faction, blueprints, and otherwise (benefiting solo/small group players), nullsec for raw materials, highly lucrative for teamwork and time investment, wormholes a still more lucrative place, benefiting teamwork, but resisting attempts to be "settled"

The concept behind that is simple. Don't fight the flow of what players end up doing. You're making things harder on everyone. Instead, embrace the roles that have already been naturally defined by the player-base and adjust industry in those areas to benefit the players who are interested in it. No more "level based" industry. It's all endgame, just customized to the players in those areas.

So again, High sec is used for trading - I don't think there's a realistic way to introduce large scale trading in low/nullsec. Instead make it easier and more lucrative to ship goods to various trade-hubs around highsec. Find a way to encourage the courier class of player here. That would help solve an innumerable amount of high sec loading issues.

Low-sec for small gang/solo warfare - You find lots of small gang pvp addicts in low-sec. Make it profitable place for a solo/small gang (>4) with high value single rewards that can't be easily split. High level faction modules, implants, and blueprints are good examples, but you could also scale mining sites up to a higher tier of goods but down in total amount and spawn rates, lending itself to small group/solo exploitation. Additionally, make the spawns somewhat like wormholes, they dry up if you exploit them too long but perhaps more lenient on time maybe take a month or two to dry up with heavy usage (>10 players running at all times). You shouldn't "settle" low-sec. That's what nullsec is for.

Nullsec is easy it's already soooo close to what players use it for. Make it valuable if settled and exploited. Obviously, this is what the blog was about looks good, carry on.

Wormholes, I happen to believe these are pretty well balanced. But this is the more lucrative version of nullsec mixed with low-sec. The mentalities merge here, a place for small gangs, that's Uber-high risk and very lucrative but doesn't lend itself to being settled.


Bottom line. I think it's important that CCP take a hard look at ALL areas like BFF is looking at nullsec. This is good progress and all areas need it.

Marak Mocam
Posted - 2011.09.07 06:05:00 - [180]
 

Self sufficiency is a *BAD* idea. Right now they CAN be self-sufficient but choose not to be. The simple reason is it's cheaper to not be.

If you buff it up to let them become totally self-sufficient, they will go that route and all your "nullsec makes for..." takes a powder. What value is there in ISK if a group can MAKE everything they want and need? Valueless.

There's another game out called Perpetuum. In that game, they have "private markets" available for just corporations to buy and sell within their group. The logic follows "why sell guns to others when they'll use them to shoot you?" and that goes even farther with nullsec via self-sufficiency. Open market work will slow then stop as trading occurs only between the entities within an alliance.

Right now you have a huge problem with the restrictions on super caps. If they COULD be made out of SOV space, you'd have a hell of a lot of production going on out in lowsec and NPC nullsec systems. They are "the" ship to challenge with in that space yet you have to be part of the "nullsec hierarchy" to make them, to then... What? Challenge other controllers? That doesn't work out well. Once "inside", you are part of it. As such there is no challenging the status quo from the outside - only insiders can do so and that takes YEARS to attempt.

So all this "make life easier out there" will feed into shutting down the market to and from those groups. This is what INDUSTRY is about - making for consumption. It'll all go "internal only" - just like your super caps are today.

tl;dr - Be extremely cautious that you do not end up destroying economic flow between areas -- your post shows a very high potential for doing this. Just look to super caps for what happens when you cannot make things elsewhere and how they are traded around.


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