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blankseplocked Nullsec design goals feedback: Industry
 
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Luna Kahn
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:38:00 - [121]
 

what a insult CCP,

as i look into the info it comes to me clearly you want to **** high sec bigtime even the game itself.

giving monopoly to nulsec huge alliance who control the juicy planets and hold some never ending SOV.
making ****loads of money.
if your not making isk in nulsec well you make a big F.up
cant tell me you dont make isk when you fly large fleets of titans and super caps. around like its normal thing to have.
simply not possible to earn less isk in nul then highsec.

taking away ice and zydrine and megacyte to nul well sorry.
but dont you forget that every single piece of **** we build that is tech I needs zydrine or megacyte or both?
taking ice away screw lowsec and highsec POS running useless

with the allready short coming of research capacity in stations making it impossible to research at all or wait for months to get started.

simply telling us to either get to nulsec or get lost
i can clearly say you will loose a lot of subscription fee's i see alot of people start leaving the game for this if you plan to continue on your crusade of suicide of your own creation (tipically human behavior) lets just say simple minded shooting this game from evolution back in to the stone age.
running around in skins and have stone and stick to defend yourself.

congratulation you have just reached a milestone sinking deeper in my eyes.
please quit your jobs and leave it to people who can actually see the greater picture.


Itharianna Thenon
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:25:00 - [122]
 

What a nice rant :)

It tells me that you did not read a single page of this thread.

I never went to nulsec nor do I ever want to.

But after carefully reading this threat I came to the conclusion that it really seems to be impossible to make decent money with industry in nulsec.

Nobody cares for the industrialist, it makes no money, the moons are better decorations for the average player and everyone wants you to be an uber-pvp.

The more I read the more I am sure that going there was senseless because I would make no isk and blown up constantly, thanks.

ken Kalkoken
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:27:00 - [123]
 

The big problem with low sec and nullsec is what industrialist in their right mind is is going to risk their expensive unarmed ships to lowlifes who live to only gank unarmed or poorly armes ships?? Even in hisec so called sucide gankers are a serious problem in some areas. the only thing they ever loose is a cheap frigate or cruiser which they replace in a few minutes. During one mining op one lowlife lost several ships in a 2 hour period trying to gank us,unsuccessfully. A serious penalty needs to be set up to discuorage killing unarmed ships if anything is to change in low and null sec.Just allow the podding of gankers and other penalities.No insurance for ships lost by gankers.loss of some skillpoints maybe too. This is supposed to be semi civilized areas, but all I see is barbarians running everything!

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:53:00 - [124]
 

I would make a single change when it comes to Industry for null-sec. Redistrubtion of moons.

Looking at this table, whole regions lack one or two kinds of Rare32 moongoo and have next to less than 10 Rare8 except one type. How can a reasonably sized group of players (say 1,000) aspire to being self-sufficient in 0.0 with T2 module production let alone T2 ships when they only have local access to one or two R8 types (lots of one) and have to go into high-sec for at least 2 of the R32s (in addition to any R64s they cannot hold)?

On top of this, a region's exploration sites (hacking) do not match the regions predominant moon-goo. For example, Pure Blind has Guristas oriented exploration sites and thus Caldari decryptors, but the majority of its R8 moons are Tungsten (Amarrian T2 production). This is great for inducing trade (via high-sec market hubs, since trade between null-sec kingdoms is a challenge), but fails hard when trying to achieve anything approaching self-sufficiency.

Changes to movement (& thus logistics) should drive changes in how null-sec operates to include whether they start to find value in those with industrialist mindsets. Strong industrialist (in conjunction with movement/logistics changes) should in turn drive changes in the local values of ores & minerals and make mining more profitable for locals.

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:54:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
I would make a single change when it comes to Industry for null-sec. Redistrubtion of moons.



Then different quantities and different contigents of moon minerals would be jumped to Jita.
Moons are alliance assets, they fund the alliance war efforts. Industrial aspects play, if ever, a very minor role.


Players and corps produce stuff. Reactions in a nulsec corp at a pos is a no-go because of the required rights and roles.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.21 20:53:00 - [126]
 

While not null sec only here are some industry ideas and questions I've been thinking about lately:


  • Isn't it time that we finally figured out how to make T2 without reinventing it all the time?

  • How about ending the commoditization of ships and modules and have the producer able to influence the end stats based on skills, blueprint research and choices in production?

  • Where did storefronts go? Have they been moved to Incarna or lost forever?



My first point makes my second one use the skills and research time and effort to replace all that invention that went on. Maybe the effort to invent a T2 blueprint becomes harder but once done you now have a BPO. The current system isn't logical and we all just average in invention costs anyway. Restriction of produced amounts can be balanced in some other manner.

The second point means CCP has to rebuild the item database but this thread is about long term planning. Individual blueprints can start off with more than bad material stats. Perhaps they don't live up to the advertised bonuses, armor strength, agility, etc. With long term research perhaps ships stats can be improved passed their current baselines. Producers could even influence visual differences so that their vessels have custom paint jobs. Yeah, I went there too.

Finally, one stop shopping of these custom items so you know where to find them all. Items should also list their producer so you know who to praise or who to complain about.

In the end a customer knows they can stop by the Red Rock Mining Store in Rens and buy a Hulk with 5% per level increase of ore yield per level instead of 3%, 5% better shield buffer and 15% better agility. With a flame paint job to make it go even faster. That's the important part.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:00:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: gfldex on 21/08/2011 22:05:48
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.


That made me giggle. :)

When was it that you nerfed the compression with DDs? IIRC it pretty much doubled the volume that have to be moved to build big stuff in 0.0. At least we got ore compression in exchange. Sadly nobody would ever even consider to compress lowends. If you see a Rorqual munching it's to avoid ref tax in outposts.

Minerals in 0.0, here is how it works. You need 1 alt in a pod (NPCs ignore pods completely) that is warping from belt to belt and will yell when he finds a spawn. You then move 2 ppl in dps into the belt that can wipe the spawn swiftly. Wipe as in not chaining. Have BMs 160km above the belt for your Rorqual to warping and tractor the wrecks around. If you got 2 dps teams you can easyly fill the Rorqual with loot in 6h. If you are lucky with the spawns, you need less time. A filled Rorqual is worth about 1.3B ISK in mins.

Every time a wiped spawn is filled again EVE is rolling a dice for you. If you go lucky you get a phat hauler spawn. There is nothing wrong with 120M trit, ain't it? It's a little hard to tell how frequent they are but you will get a few in 6h. I can remember corp hangar arrays fill to the brim with lowmins because a certain wizzard66 prefered to play with his willy over hauling them back to base.

The solution to lowmins is there already but very few players know how belt spawns actually work. Most players tend to chain spawns or leave tons of mins behind because they don't have the hauling power to move 120M Trit. Edit: How about letting them drop compressed Veld instread? Imagine there would be compressed Veld in EVE!

Slots are a problem in 0.0 but for sure not because of shortage in stations. The real problem is that you can't grant POS fiddle right for a single POS to a player. If he or she can offline one POS he can offline any of your corp. In my eyes a industrial tycoon should have his own POS network. His corp and alliance should be the land lord, getting some of the ISK he is squeezing out of his corpies wallets.

One of the reasons so many moon goo ISK flows into directors hands is that it's the only viable option, simply because you pretty much need director rights to handle moon goo. You could work with alt corps but since we don't have easy ways to handle recurring payments in EVE it's a pain in the rear to keep track of payments. (It's for sure not one of those modern icelandic banks that is handling the EVE wallets. You can tell because ISK usually don't magicly vanishes. :)

Again it's a lack of tools for the sandbox, not shifting sand from one end to another.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:27:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"


Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Yup, this is the direction I'm increasingly leaning in, based on the feedback we've been getting here.


Definitely support this. One of the main problems I see in trying to implement "high-sec for T1, nullsec for T2" is that every T2 item requires a T1 item. Therefore, any area that is going to be good at T2 manufacture has to have at least a reasonable ability to construct T1 items.

So, how do we go about differentiating prodction between high-sec and nullsec? I see three key elements:


1) Mineral Requirements

Care has to be taken with this one, as we can't create any facility that is more efficient at building things than a 100% refine is at reprocessing them, otherwise you make a mineral creation machine. Removing the ability to reprocess things causes more problems, which is why I'm not advocating that.

Which only leaves a very narrow window to play within. I personally don't think this window is large enough to create the sort of differential we want.

I am also reluctant to use increased waste as a nerf to high-sec. Most of the specialist and T2 stuff that would be more the domain of nullsec also have a lot of "Extra Materials" that are immune to waste, or low-volume requirements where any increase in waste would either be zero, or a large step up in cost.

Therefore, I would recommend staying away from this element.


2) Manufacturing Speed

This is a better candidate for bonuses. It means industrialists can output greater volumes, shorter jobs let people be more responsive to changing demands, it lets you scale running costs at the same time, and it can produce significant differentials without breaking anything.

It also has the advantage that mechanisms to do this are already in place.


3) Slot Availability

This is an area where high-sec currently has a significant advantage, especially in manufacturing. There need to be easier ways of significantly scaling up the slot availability in nullsec. The situation with labs isn't as bad as the NPC slots are more limited so high-sec supply is at least partially dependant on the same player-owned mechanisms as nullsec.

In the short-term this probably means making mroe flexible POS assembly array modules, with the long-term tying into the small-holding and outpost development.


4) BPO Safety

One of the significant advantages of high-sec is that you can keep your blueprints in an NPC station and have it be 100% safe, even if using it at a POS. Nullsec suffers a double-whammy of both being more dangerous and having fewer tools to keep the significant blueprint investments safe.

This will likely need something tied into the sort of mechanisms being considered for the "Predictable Security" element of smallholding.

This leads me to one conclusion - it is all about the facilities and it will likely require changes to both high-sec and nullsec facilities.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:45:00 - [129]
 

High-Sec Facilities

NPC Material, Time and Copying slots remain unchanged. These are the basic elements of the science path.

NPC invention slots should be removed. Invention is on a par with Reverse Engineering as an advanced element of the science path and it is these advanced elements where nullsec can get more advantage. That way all the advanced science paths can be balanced within the player-owned facilities.

Similarly, NPC manufacturing slots should remain, but should not be able to manufacture T2. This gives a similar alignment of basic/advanced elements of the manufacturing path.

It should still be possible to do the advanced elements of industry in high-sec, but with the barriers to entry that go with POS facilities. That way high-sec and nullsec at least start on similar footings in terms of facility requirements.


Nullsec Facilities

With the changes to high-sec, giving nullsec advantages becomes all about balancing the POS arrays. While some of this will come about through general more efficient POS operation in nullsec, we already have the mechanisms necessary to create nullsec-only arrays and should use them.

Nullsec arrays can the be given a variety of advantages over their high-sec brethren:

1) Greater time bonuses
2) More slots per array or lower fitting requirements per array
3) Greater cargo capacity (to assist with the lower availability of other storage options compared to high-sec)
4) More flexible slots (e.g. "manufacture anything" slots rather than the restrictions on the current arrays).

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:21:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: Dex Nederland
I would make a single change when it comes to Industry for null-sec. Redistrubtion of moons.



Then different quantities and different contigents of moon minerals would be jumped to Jita.
Moons are alliance assets, they fund the alliance war efforts. Industrial aspects play, if ever, a very minor role.


Players and corps produce stuff. Reactions in a nulsec corp at a pos is a no-go because of the required rights and roles.


1) I doubt many alliances are bank rolling their war efforts on R8 moons, since they lose ISK when mining the R8s even with a small Starbase & sovereignty. These are the majority of moons I think should be redistributed.

2) Alliances do not control Starbase roles (Config Starbase Equipment, Starbase Defense Operator, & Starbase Fuel Technician); Corporations do.

If Starbase rights are a big concern for an alliance, those moons of importance (like R64s & R32s) should have their Starbases operated by a corporation that has tight controls on who is in it and who has what roles. If the alliance has a problem with a reaction starbase on a useless moon, it is also likely the kind of alliance that spends its R64 & R32 earned ISK on maintaining Sov for systems it has fewer than 6 Starbases and not on actually executing wars.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


*Market Values of fuels taken from Eve-Central, The Forge minimum sell orders, cost of basic Sov taken from Evelopedia.

The above chart shows that for any number of regular/non-faction large Starbases less than 6, an alliance is losing money on sovereignty when compared to fuel savings. How many alliances actually operate 6 profitable regular/non-faction large Starbases or the fuel equivalent in most of the systems they have claimed sovereignty in? (A question CCP should be able to answer by pulling the data from the servers)

This also does not take into account the cost of actually taking the system, which even if it is undefended is probably 500m+ ISK. Actually conquering space right now is expensive and based on the discussions in these threads, most alliances sound horribly inefficient at utilizing the space they claim.

All this discussion however brings up what is an important point. We, the players, currently lack the tools to do cooperative, corporate industry. The granularity (or lack there of) of corporate roles/permissions and built in industry tools make large scale cooperative, corporate projects makes trust a major factor in building a profitable, industrial corporation of more than a few people and their alts.

We need tools that make it manageable, clear, and secure where are members can contribute to non-space combat projects and goals. As a CEO, I should be able to build a project (say Heavy Missile Launcher IIs) and securely utilize my members' skills & industrial slots/capabilities in producing a corporate product that can then be sold only for the corporation.

By the same token, it should be possible to enable members to help maintain moon product reactions and utilize Starbase labs & factories without giving them the ability to tear-down even one Starbase. Moving a cargo of Technetium (or other material) being moved from its mining Starbase to a reaction Starbase should be relatively secure (like a move contract), straight forward, and rewardable.

It should be possible to attach clear rewards to each of these activities, such that mundane task, like moving fuels, materials, or products around does not require incredible amounts of trust.

silentalleycat
Posted - 2011.08.22 08:20:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: silentalleycat on 22/08/2011 08:21:44
Originally by: Itharianna Thenon
What a nice rant :)

It tells me that you did not read a single page of this thread.

I never went to nulsec nor do I ever want to.

But after carefully reading this threat I came to the conclusion that it really seems to be impossible to make decent money with industry in nulsec.

Nobody cares for the industrialist, it makes no money, the moons are better decorations for the average player and everyone wants you to be an uber-pvp.

The more I read the more I am sure that going there was senseless because I would make no isk and blown up constantly, thanks.


Actually you can lmake good money in industry in null sec especially mining but it takes so much work in coordinating the ops and doing the logistics that it almost becomes a second job and you burn yourself out
i lived there with my corp renting , we mined we had ops running almost round the clock , jumping back to high sec 2 to 3 times a week with my rhea full of compressed abc ores and returning with goods for sale because the manufacturingslots were rubbish in nullsecand more profitable making those goods in high sec and shipping them back in
We made billions as a corp each week but it became a second job and i burned myself out , when i left i didn't even play for a full month
Biggest problem with nullsec industry is that moongoo dominates and aslong it is easier just to buy their minerals in jita and ship it back to nullsec it will stay like this

Simple solution , make moongoo depletable ,once depleted afet a few months another moon somewhere random in the universe will become moongoorich for a few months sort like moon pi.

Resender
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:23:00 - [132]
 

Maybe make it so that PI adds to a systems industrial index

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.22 11:18:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn

This is arse-about. Nullsec logistics is an industry in its own. Nullsec denizens already make plenty of ISK from shipping supplies in from hisec to supply nullsec. All it takes is a jump freighter and a few friends, and you can be bankrolling your own nullsec PvP.


If I had the isk for a jumpfreighter, then I would already have financed my nullsec pvp for months and months.. You are thinking wrong.


Mitohane
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:03:00 - [134]
 

Here's an interesting idea to toss around, one of my biggest things about moving to 0.0 is obviously it requires a pos of some kind to be setup, and then at some point your bpo's have to go in there, ones that have had extensive time researched, even to get some bpo's to decent numbers they have to sit in there for months, thats a long time to try and hold a pos in nullsec, even with a small alliance of a hundred or so, let alone by yourself.

It's one of the most expensive things you have to move, especially for the bigger items/ships. So take that out of the equation and people will be more willing to move out. How can we do that? well best way I can think of is insurance.

You can insure ships, allow industrialsts(with a skill that reduces loss) to insure their bpo's. With different rates so that even the top rate will reduce the amount of me/pe research numbers down to a max loss of 10%, or 1 point. They can still be stolen but if they are destroyed while they are insured, they are given to you at the nearest npc station with a reduced me/pe. So if I had a scourge heavy missile bpo with 80me and 20pe, and I lossed it in a pos when a group ganked it and I had 90% insurance it comes back to me at 72/18, and thats if i I have the skill at 5 and the max paid amount.

It's still an isk payment and another sink but whats a few million to ensure a high researched carrier or freightor bpo or some other expensive bpo etc...Again it could still be unanchored and stolen so your not fully protected but at least if it was destroyed, which does happen, your not completely set back to ground 0 with a year's grind(in some cases) before you can go out again.

From a lore standpoint its no different then doing a bpc, at some point copies should degrade from the original depending on how much effort you put into copies and essentially they would be making a copy of your bpo, how good depends on how much you spend.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.23 05:39:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 23/08/2011 05:43:17

I feel that moving industry and it's value from high and low sec into null sec is a mistake. Null sec has the majority advanatage in this area as it stands.. I feel in many ways null sec life has gotten too soft except in wh space. There are too many outposts which are too easily built. The population has grown there and there is a fairly robust market by the standards of yesterday.

It's too late to change this without disturbing players. I want to recommend that you add to the game new things to give value instead of removing things. A whole new layer of space outside null sec, the outer black, where planets are fewer .. where moons are fewer, where local is not turned on .. where scanning is the rule.. add new minerals and item for manufacture.. add new ways to mine that are super lucrative and super dangerous.. no peaceful mining.. make it tough for the miner, make it tough for the pirate to survive.. this should be true no mans land. WH's should have access, null sec should have access.. and anyone brave enough to risk passing them to get there should have access.. but make no mastake what I'm proposing in this area is an extremely naturally dangerous area. No one should have an easy time setting up to live there. what's more there should be ways in around gates.

Anyway add more to the game.. you see a ship balance problem, this is an opportunity to add more ships or modules. add minerals add solar plasma mining, comet mining, planetary ring mining, plus more dangerous variations of what we have now ..add new clever gathering methods... don't subract what we have to add them.



Elzon1
Caldari
Shadow Boys Corp
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:05:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Elzon1 on 23/08/2011 09:09:11
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.




Maybe, but POS's have limited cpu and powergrid and therefore have fairly limited industrial capacity. Add to that the fact there can only be one POS per moon and you have a fairly arbitrary footbullet there.

Instead imagine a system of industrial structures linked to a central control port or multiple ports (less weak points in network). Now imagine if you are low on cpu you can just add another cpu producing unit (costing more fuel) and if you are low on powergrid you add another reactor (again costing more fuel). So instead of a limited POS you have a theoretically infinite industrial capacity from a single large network of structures.

Another thing is that they wouldn't have any large force field to speak of as they would simply be structures in space like when you see a production facility in an npc site. You don't necessarily have to add new art assets for this since there are so many existing art assets for one to use for such a system. You will just have to make it so the player can produce such structures and be able to place them in their network.

This type of system could be used for t1 and t2 production as well as producing things even up to the size of titans.

POS's will always have the use as a safe haven for corp/alliance mates if one does not have a station in system. POS's would also be safer to produce supercaps in as well as doing moon mining.

This new system could possibly also do moon mining in that if there was a POS already sucking from a moon you could effect the POS's moon harvesting effectiveness since you would essentially be sucking from the same rock. This opens up the possibility of using this system as an offensive industrial weapon.

This system lends itself to rapid deployment so as to be efficient under more nomadic conditions. Since this system doesn't have a protective shield or a reinforcement timer it should be less costly to run compared to a POS of comparable capability.

I don't see the problem with nullsec as being one of t2 production or mineral deposition, it is one of lack of industrial capacity. Everything else like mineral prices will sort themselves out in the local nullsec markets. If tritanium is hard to get in nullsec then it's price will rise to a level to where more will mine it in nullsec because of it's greater profitability versus other minerals that are more abundant in the area.


PS: Make technium a part of the alchemy system or give all moons a little bit of everything in varying amounts but still major in what they really produce.

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:06:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 23/08/2011 12:07:16
Redo POSs into mini destructible outposts, and redo corp POS roles and you will fix most of whats wrong with production in 0.0.

-Change Corp hangers to have 2 separate m3 limits. 1 being for General Use(depending on roles), and the other for personal use. Each member will have a m3 limit for personal use.

-Ship arrays can work the same as above. OR have it so if you put a ship into the array only YOU and a director(or make another role) can see/access the ship. For CSAAs only allow packaged supers to be stored.

-Assembly arrays should work the same as point 1. Also create new roles that would allow someone to see/install/cancel/deliver ONLY THEIR JOBS. Create another role "Mobile Station Production Manager" which can cancel jobs if need be.

-Create 3 different roles for anchoring/un-anchoring and onlining POS defenses, Internal POS mods, and the tower itself.

-Ability to limit role access on a individual POS to POS basis.

-Lessen or remove the mobile refinery efficiency penalty. As well as the time frame for refining minerals.

-REMOVE THE ME PENALTY ON ADVANCED PRODUCTION MODS. Theres a reason why the advanced ship/module array are never never never used. This is why.

While these are just some ideas and not necessarily 0.0 specific. It should remove some reliance on Outposts and allow more production to flow in areas that are limited due to lack of stations.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:14:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Bloodpetal on 23/08/2011 16:31:31


The T1 in High Sec, T2 in Null Sec and the Meta in Low Sec is an interesting dynamic.

Null Sec is pretty symmetrical, except for the factions in which case some certain racial drops are going to naturally come from specific parts of null sec. Other than that, with the exception of moon minerals having a slightly higher density in some places. T2 Gear tends to be racially oriented from the factions - but I've never noticed a strong tendency to make a difference, probably because most of it ends up in high sec for resale or manufacturing.


What ideas or examples do you have for taking Null Sec and make it the premiere place to manufacture T2 and deter players from just dragging everything back to high sec?

The challenge is that to manufacture a T2 ship takes materials and items from so many different places that to assemble in High Sec just makes sense. Not to mention Datacores are easily found there.


To take that out of High Sec would require a lot of modifications, in my perspective. Including, if you manufacture ships in 0.0, there will be a tendency for specific parts of 0.0 to have specific racial ships. (I.e. SW will be Amarr T2 heavy, North will be Caldari T2). This means that for trading to happen people have to move them (Trade is Good! Trade = Money!) But it also means time commitment and time investment. This reverts back to the dilemma that making it in High Sec just makes sense. To the manufacturer, he wants to get his goods and items to the customer with as little middle men as possible (less hassle, faster money). A trader wants the opposite. The Customer just wants it as cheap as possible, however he gets it.

Steps to more T2 in Null Sec :


  • Datacores from Agents removed, or can be earned, claimed or transported easily to null sec

  • Starbase Module in 0.0/Outposts produce T2 items cheaper and faster

  • T2 Invention has higher success in 0.0

  • Remove T2 invention items from Exploration Sites in high/low sec, replace with rewarding alternatives.

  • Make T2 Ships smaller/easier to move when packaged




The real issue is that no matter how much you push T2 into the null sec region it's going to end up in High Sec.

The reason is simple, you have the most consumers in High Sec. In the end, there are no professional traders from 0.0 to high sec, and the reason for that is because they're all in transporting in house to get rid of the middle man. Without promoting entrepreneurial Traders at the same time who will not only look for trading to High Sec, but also let's say, move them to other 0.0 regions directly (as a Trader if I can make a higher margin going from Amarr 0.0 to Caldari 0.0, and skip over high sec, then I'll do so to avoid the competition.) The manufacturer will simply not care, drop it in the competitive market and so on.

--

I see that there is a lack of a suggestion thread to promote "Trading". However, I think it's crucial to NOT ignore that profession in EVE for Null Sec.

The biggest issue with 0.0 trading is being able to rely on the Alliance you're dealing with to not cut off your access to the station if you were to deal with a contract there.

Creating a "Contract" that allowed Alliances to sell "Trade Rights" to a station, with or without blue standing (talk about exciting trading!) and would give that pilot (or corporation?) access to that Outpost for the duration of the contract would be one way to promote the Trader profession.

Although this can be done without Contracts, I'd say the idea of financial security is something you are trying to promote, and if more Traders knew they had a strong guarantee that they could get into a station, then they'd be more prone to look for these 0.0 trade opportunities.

In order to not make it a one-sided system, simply set a Collateral to protect the Trader if the outpost holder wants to break the contract early - this brings in a negotiation and "strike a good deal" to the system.

Mentira
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:06:00 - [139]
 

my few ideas to the whole mess :)

1. Interlink the system upgrades in 0.0 that you cannot get to military 2 unless you have mining 1. You cannot get Military 4 unless you have mining 3 and an outpost. That attracts NPC pirates due to high activity in the system and you spawn more sanctums. 0.0 dwellers love sanctums and in order to get them they need miners in the system. To have a local market you need an outpost. Maybe 1 Outpost is enough for all systems around the outpost system if they have the same sov holder. But all the sudden 0.0 residents will need local industry in order to upgrade their systems and then even the worse 0.0 system should be able to have sanctums again

2. Redo the outpost stuff. First of all the role system sucks, no corp will give you rights to do the things you wanna do / need to do with "your" POS because of corp security. And without protection of your miner/production assets from theft you're not going to leave them there.

3. Redo the moongoo stuff. Make it exploration. Make it deplete in moons and move on to other unused moons. Right now it's a more or less passive income for a few people, that use their corp/ally as protective shield. Seen this in my first ally. As soon as the ally leader got his pos wiped out at the only r64 moon in ally hand, they (the ally-leaders corp) moved on and left the rest hang out dry in the war.

4. Increase the production capability in 0.0 in outposts as much as in POS. The outposts are often full (at least where I lived) and then you need a POS setup to produce, for which you wont get the rights due to security reasons.

So you basically come as a indy char to 0.0, but you won't have the possibility to produce there for some years (at least on a larger scale outside the outpost) until "they" have enough trust in you to give you the right to manage your POS.

0.0 trading as mentioned above I don't see happening as 0.0 dwellers love to shoot people and they don't care, if that just was a freighter full of goodies for their market. 1.) because it's nice to be on a JF or freighter killmail and 2.) because you might get half of the stuff for free and you can sell it on the market :)

I also don't see, that the highest demand of T2 is in 0.0. Although vast space only a small percentage of people live there and when i was roaming there, i often used drake/hurricane in gangs due to the low insurance payout on T2 ships. As long as you don't have a good income there from little work, you don't blow up expensive ships on a daily basis.

What would be nice before moving all T2 to 0.0 would be some numbers : where does the majority of T2 ships blown into pieces ? high, low or 0.0 ?

Seniae 0n3
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:45:00 - [140]
 

Some other idea, since all the systems for research are always filled up for weeks/months ... get rid of all them bloody alts who hog the slots like greedy lil *****

Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.08.23 23:43:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Thur Barbek on 23/08/2011 23:46:29
Originally by: Seniae 0n3
Some other idea, since all the systems for research are always filled up for weeks/months ... get rid of all them bloody alts who hog the slots like greedy lil *****


There are these things called POS's, where you can have almost unlimited PRIVATE research slots. Your argument will probably that they cost too much or take too much effort to maintain. That is most likely the same opinion of the "greedy" alts. You are free to que up and make the alts wait longer for their next blueprint.

Originally by: Mentira

2. Redo the outpost stuff. First of all the role system sucks, no corp will give you rights to do the things you wanna do / need to do with "your" POS because of corp security. And without protection of your miner/production assets from theft you're not going to leave them there.

3. Redo the moongoo stuff. Make it exploration. Make it deplete in moons and move on to other unused moons. Right now it's a more or less passive income for a few people, that use their corp/ally as protective shield. Seen this in my first ally. As soon as the ally leader got his pos wiped out at the only r64 moon in ally hand, they (the ally-leaders corp) moved on and left the rest hang out dry in the war.


Agree, moon minerals need to be less static. Or at least make it less passive income. Also, reworking the corp/alliance roles system to allow more access without taking options would help a lot of industry corps

Seniae 0n3
Posted - 2011.08.23 23:54:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Thur Barbek
Edited by: Thur Barbek on 23/08/2011 23:46:29
Originally by: Seniae 0n3
Some other idea, since all the systems for research are always filled up for weeks/months ... get rid of all them bloody alts who hog the slots like greedy lil *****


There are these things called POS's, where you can have almost unlimited PRIVATE research slots. Your argument will probably that they cost too much or take too much effort to maintain. That is most likely the same opinion of the "greedy" alts. You are free to que up and make the alts wait longer for their next blueprint.



Don't worry I use a POS

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.08.24 18:03:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.

Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


you do know that the bulk of all capitals are built in low sec to avoid as much hauling as possible and expensive bpo sets being screwed in npc stations. buy in jita haul to low sec build, you know that right? with only scaps are built in 0.0. so your actually gonna make it harder logisticly and from an isk risk stand point.
oh 1 scap fits in 2 jf's when you compress it, not making it hard to move at all. i wish you played this game you woudl know this stuff then

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.24 22:23:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Miranda Starborn on 24/08/2011 22:31:51
Eve has a flow of commodities from null sec to empire and a flow of commodities back to null sec. Both regions benefit by trade with each other. Eve provides for a breeding ground of industry and trade. But it does not stop there, this infrastructure and the logistic that comes with it feeds the existence of pirates that can exploit traders and industrial committed players. Hence, the current situation spawns a multitude of opportunities for completely different game styles which is inline with the sand box approach.

Now, what I do not understand is what is wrong with this, and what it is that needs to be fixed?

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.25 09:25:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Miranda Starborn

Now, what I do not understand is what is wrong with this, and what it is that needs to be fixed?



I thought that can be taken from all the posts in this thread, which you hopefully read all, the mining thread and the sov/smallholding threads.



Bill Toralen
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:57:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Bill Toralen on 25/08/2011 15:44:13
Here's some food for thought:
-Eve is better than many other MMO's due to it's free market- a.k.a. "Greed is Good". This idea kills that.
-Eve doesn't have a "high level" area you have to go to once you reach a certain ability level. Many of us left other games for Eve due to this unique outlook.
-No wants to do industry in Null Sec when you can make 10x the isk running plexes. Everyone who's been to null knows that all to well. How many Orca capable pilots just run Plexes?
-Many high sec players DO NOT want to be slaves to giant super alliances. Alternately, they don't have the 8 hours a day to dedicate to the politics and PvP needs of a 0.0 alliance of any size.

If you want Null Sec to have an indy boost why not nerf plexes? Get the corp members out of their Tengu's and force them to something with the VAST resources they already have at their disposal, as opposed to being 9-5 Concord bounty hunters? Maybe even get the corporation leaders to loosen their fists on those precious moon refineries?

*Edited For Constructiveness

Pah Cova
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:02:00 - [147]
 

In a few words, CCP wants to make high sec just for noobs.
All the other players should move to null sec systems loosing isks and goods with a ear to ear smile.

Industrials and miners are not welcome in null sec and that are not going to change never.
You should start first working on that.

Then we have those few who have the t2 bpo´s producing at prices that others cant reach due the investment that they have to do in the "****o" datacores.

AlphaOrion
Hemorrhagic Visions
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:28:00 - [148]
 

Here's a few thoughts on industry and it's highly related topic of trade.

Everythings in Jita - Huge convenience and huge hassle but why trade anywhere else? I think there should be local taxing authorities. Taxation could exist at the system, constellation, and region levels. Taxes could vary based on the number of ships in system, the amount of goods on market, or the goods themselves. (Sin taxes and the like). This could also be applied with sovereignty such that corps and alliances could tax their areas as well and would give them a tool for spreading out their members.


Localizing Trading - Again taxation could help with trade issues. If there were import/export taxes associated with hauling goods it would be most lucrative to locally manufacture, mine, and rat instead of doing everything in high sec and moving it out.





Bill Toralen
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:02:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: AlphaOrion
Here's a few thoughts on industry and it's highly related topic of trade.

Everythings in Jita - Huge convenience and huge hassle but why trade anywhere else? I think there should be local taxing authorities. Taxation could exist at the system, constellation, and region levels. Taxes could vary based on the number of ships in system, the amount of goods on market, or the goods themselves. (Sin taxes and the like). This could also be applied with sovereignty such that corps and alliances could tax their areas as well and would give them a tool for spreading out their members.


Localizing Trading - Again taxation could help with trade issues. If there were import/export taxes associated with hauling goods it would be most lucrative to locally manufacture, mine, and rat instead of doing everything in high sec and moving it out.








This idea would work. Get the alliances in 0.0 to want industrialists in their home space. If they could offer adequate protection, industrialists would be attracted out there in greater numbers. Prices would be slightly higher to balance the concord paychecks the PvPers are getting, but much lower than the constant jump freighter trips. It would be more like a real economic need rather than some forced migration.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:09:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.

Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


Can i sugest rorqual ?

rorqual can currently compress ore, why not release mins compression BPO's? would fix that

or if you want to go further down the road, why not capital parts compression bpo? like, 1x compressed capital armor plate = 10 capital armor plates

currently rorquals cant go into hisec and cant compress while docked.. no idea how this affects the balance as you see it



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