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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:45:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Pinky Denmark on 18/08/2011 09:47:34
Here is my few pointers:

  • 0.0 Industry need minerals

  • Not worth it to mine minerals compared to buying from empire

  • Easier to haul ships from empire instead of materials

  • Outpost production lines are too rigid

  • Booster industry seems ackward


0.0 have plenty minerals in the many belts and the haulerspawns, however for miners to actually mine the lowends in 0.0 they will have stop mining hi-end ores. It is economically more feasible to transport hi-ends to empire and transport ships back. This is good for trading but bad for the 0.0 industry that will focus on capitals and bigger.
I would consider boosting all asteroids to give a bigger yeld of especially Tritanium when refined. Make the mining pay more isk. And make sure plenty of the low-end minerals will be mined even in presence of hi-end ore.
Even with the current prices for minerals it's worth spending 1 hour chasing npc pirates and then buying minerals from miners in empire, instead of mining for 2 hours.
Also It's more feasible to import the built products rather than importing materials and build yourself.

The outposts having a totally rigid structure of manufacture lines makes the industry in 0.0 difficult. As mentioned previously half a research station slots are unused because they do the wrong thing. The same with manufacture stations where the booster manufacture lines doesn't make sense at all.

Most stations have a line available to booster production - But you NEED a POS to refine the gasses in the first place before putting the components together and then you might as well produce the boosters on the tower as well? Or maybe just remove the booster production lines from stations - it hurts to run out of manufacture slots for other things when you have 10 booster lines that never gets used.

Also the gas used for boosters seems to be mostly concentrated with specific gasses in specific areas. Try look into scattering them more around or randomize them more frequently through anomalies...

Pinky

Augustina Maxima
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:46:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Augustina Maxima on 18/08/2011 09:48:48
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.

Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


While I agree that the amount of minerals(95% of it lowmins) you need to move to 0.0 to build supers and titans is SILLY you got your numbers wrong and I mean realy wrong. To build a single supercarrier you need exactly 1 jumpfrighter full of 425mm Railguns T1(meta 0) these you build in empire preferbly close to jita with ME250 BPOS to make sure mineral lose is zero or close to that. Once you've moved these to 0.0 you refine them and your loss of minerals in the process is near zero thats how we do it and thats how anyone else does it expect ppl in the drone regions but thats a different story. So logistics issnt realy that much of a problem. But I'd love to be able to say to my ****s lets mine a titan or supercarrier ourselfs which as of now in 0.0 is not possible because hidden belts and the highend ores itself do not provide any notable amount of low minerals. If you get around to change to composition of highend ores like you did with Drone Aloys then that might become an option while making sure 0.0 miners income doesnt get total nerf'd. Because its already pretty low income compared to ratters. Most 0.0 miner I know mine with like 6 hulks + 1 rorqual (in industry mode) + 1 rorqual for hauling. That way they best any ratter but with 1 or 2 hulks its not realy a proftable profession right now. But what annoys me the most is the fact that allmost all our miner mine we sell in highsec and bring down build ships thats so stupid I cant even put it in words.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:20:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
I am inclined to believe you deliberately misunderstand.

The alliances have no problem with industry.



What you seem to be saying is that alliances have no problem with industrialists, so long as the industrialists are PvPers first and industrialists second. But this is precisely the problem. People who play the game for the sake of industry will only come to nullsec when the industrial side is valued in and of itself. They won't come if they are expected to do all the things nullsec PvPers do first and then only industry in whatever time is left over. That would require them to enjoy nullsec fleet PvP and if they wanted to do that they would be down in null anyway.

AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:16:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Miraqu
I am inclined to believe you deliberately misunderstand.
The alliances have no problem with industry.

What you seem to be saying is that alliances have no problem with industrialists, so long as the industrialists are PvPers first and industrialists second. But this is precisely the problem. People who play the game for the sake of industry will only come to nullsec when the industrial side is valued in and of itself. They won't come if they are expected to do all the things nullsec PvPers do first and then only industry in whatever time is left over. That would require them to enjoy nullsec fleet PvP and if they wanted to do that they would be down in null anyway.

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash

If industrialists want to get themselves accepted in 0.0 alliances, they first need to accept the fact that they will no longer be able to work exclusively for their own profits, but that they will need to dedicate time to building the alliance as well.


Miraqu and Abdiel Kavash make some good points and I definitely agree with RAW23. I am not criticizing large 0.0 for not encouraging industrialists right now. Choosing between two pilots with 30m combat SP - one with 100% combat, one with 75% indy 25% combat, the 100% combat one will be more useful, and probably easier to manage and a better personality fit. And there is no real cost for having your industrial needs filled by local alts and Jita.

IMO, CCP needs to first decide *who* they want doing industry in 0.0.

One extreme is that 0.0 industry is designed so that the industrialists need combat PvP skills (skill points and in-the-chair.) IMO. this limits this to essentially being 0.0 alts. If CCP plans for this to continue, then IMO much effort in 0.0 industry is a waste. They are spending a lot of scarce developer resources for something few will appreciate and reducing the number of players/subscribers in 1.0 as well.

The other extreme (not viable straw man ofc) is that there be pockets/places where industrialists without combat skills can use scan, local and operate not that differently than 1.0.

If CCP's design goal is to make 0.0 industry significant and relevant, then there needs to be:
  • some way to accomodate hardened (nowhere is safe, don't fly what you can't lose, HTFU) non-combat industrialists
  • some way where a sovereignty-holding, non-pirate alliance needs/benefits from the industrialists
  • some way where the industrialists visibly contribute to the alliance. I.e., if combat grunts have to do CTAs, then what are the industrialist contributing? (making industrialists hop in their Rifters or even Claws and Drakes) is not going to that fun for either the industrialists or the Alliance trying to use them. My guess is that if the industrial contribution were only financial, it would not be successful. I.e., you raise sovereignty costs but make industry profitable, then it still would not be worth the Alliance's efforts to deal with non-alt industrialists.


CCP could just add whatever is missing to 0.0 to allow self-sufficient production there. This is cheap and is probably CCP's best option. I do not like it as it reduces 1.0 Industry again but it is probably CCP's best option since 0.0 > Industry.

What I fear is CCP's current plan is to start down a significant change to Industry and 0.0/1.0 balance that has a much bigger impact on reducing 1.0 Industry while not increasing non-alt 0.0 Industry participation.

CCP has complete control over the number of customers do industry in 1.0.

IMO, CCP has a lot less control than they think over the number of customers doing industry in 0.0. Very few industrialists currently don't know where and what 0.0 is. Very few new players are going to join EVE because 0.0 industry got better. So a great industry expansion is revenue neutral for CCP. The harder the push out of 1.0, the more choose the exit instead of 0.0 path.





Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:46:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: RAW23

What you seem to be saying is that alliances have no problem with industrialists, so long as the industrialists are PvPers first and industrialists second.



Why does it always have to be either or? Why does one contradict the other? There are players like me who like building stuff and blowing stuff up.
Why do all think that using a miner or using blueprints bans you from the killboard?

Whats wrong with simply earning money not by shooting rats but instead mining or building stuff?

Who doesn't ever want to do any PvP will not even go to nullsec if the rewards would be increased by a factor of ten or more. Therefore I mostly ignore the "herding" comments.

Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr

Choosing between two pilots with 30m combat SP - one with 100% combat, one with 75% indy 25% combat, the 100% combat one will be more useful, and probably easier to manage and a better personality fit.



I play Eve since 2006 and Never Ever have the sp been the deciding factor. Most alliances would probably cheer if someone with barely enough sp to fit a combat frigate would be motivated to actively defend his home and attend fleets. It has always been individual motivation. A motivated pilot will gain sp and get better and more successful, an unmotivated pilot will not help the corp if he had 100 mil sp.

tl;dr
It should be a viable option to earn ISK for a life in nullsec trough industry, not more but not less.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:19:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 18/08/2011 21:24:18
Edited by: RAW23 on 18/08/2011 21:22:50
Edited by: RAW23 on 18/08/2011 21:21:31
Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: RAW23

What you seem to be saying is that alliances have no problem with industrialists, so long as the industrialists are PvPers first and industrialists second.



Why does it always have to be either or? Why does one contradict the other? There are players like me who like building stuff and blowing stuff up.
Why do all think that using a miner or using blueprints bans you from the killboard?

Whats wrong with simply earning money not by shooting rats but instead mining or building stuff?

Who doesn't ever want to do any PvP will not even go to nullsec if the rewards would be increased by a factor of ten or more. Therefore I mostly ignore the "herding" comments.



I'm not saying it is an either or question. rather, your earlier posts and my own experience suggest that it is a question of priority, that nullsec industrialists must be PvPers first and industrialists second. You may think that's ok but if we want to get industrialists down to nullsec they will have to have a space in the end-game as industrialists first. If the industry changes simply move all T2 production outside the hands of those who want to be dedicated industrialists, that will kill the industrial career in this game in exchange for a buff to nullsec PvPers' second careers. What is needed are changes that make industrialists valuable as industrialists for alliances, such that their work is important enough that you would very rarely want to pull them away from it for a CTA as this would have negative effects for the alliance. Secondly, by developing the smallholding idea there can be a role and a place for independent industrialists to live in nullsec as industrialists first (and also as tempting targets for the other residents). But if the only way they can play the industrial game is to be primarily nullsec PvPers most industrialists will, I suspect, quit.

AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:39:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Miraqu

Why does it always have to be either or? Why does one contradict the other? There are players like me who like building stuff and blowing stuff up. Why do all think that using a miner or using blueprints bans you from the killboard?


It doesn't have to be one or the other; in a better world it might not be. The number of people who do both is certainly not zero. But IMO it is a much smaller percentage of the people who do either. With finite development resources, it seems wiser to spend the resources where there is more appeal.

[Much in the EVE ecosystem exacerbates the rift between the two camps - from all the forum warriors on all sides to the occasional comment from CSM chairmen.]

Originally by: Miraqu

Who doesn't ever want to do any PvP will not even go to nullsec if the rewards would be increased by a factor of ten or more. Therefore I mostly ignore the "herding" comments.



Just because you and I believe your first sentence, does not mean that CCP believes it. In particular, is the industry component of this expansion just about 0.0 self-sufficiency? In which case, there is no need to herd. And the solutions can be pretty narrow changes - something that dropped enough trit to keep the super capital assembly lines flowing would be a big step.

But when one reads all about this tier being produced in that location, it seems like CCP wants to do some social engineering/herding, which I can not see ending well.


Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.19 01:02:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 19/08/2011 01:04:23
Want to give the biggest boost to nullsec industry possible?


Ban NPC Corps. Scratch that, make it so that NPC corps are only available to Trial Accounts. If you're still not in a corp by two weeks, or are kicked out of a corp, you become a 'Free Agent' who can be individually wardec'd for a slightly lower fee then dec'ing a corp. Because low-level industry in nullsec will always, no matter what you do, be inferior to highsec industry because a nullsec low/mid miner has to deal with constant threat from other players while in a slow and defenseless ship, deal with the logistics of living in nullsec, and dealing with PVP commitments (or rent) that come with living in 0.0; all while directly competing with an NPC corp in highsec with the exact same ship mining the exact same ore but has zero risk, zero impediments and zero obligations. The only problem for the highsec low/mid miner is that he has to undercut countless of thousands of other NPC corp miners, because all of whom are equally invulnerable (except for the rare Hulkageddon) and thus there is no way for any of them to eliminate their competition. So really, the nullsec miner loses every time.

Then, high-SP nullsec players, taking advantage of a freighter alt in, again, an NPC Corp can slowly haul the compressed minerals bought at rock bottom prices across New Eden with, again, zero risk to where it can be jump freightered right past lowsec straight into an alliance station safe and sound.

If these high-SP nullsec supply lines from hisec could be disrupted, say, by not letting their freighters be freakin' invulnerable, it could actually be worthwhile for 0.0 alliances to bring in miners and builders for their own sake. Hisec piracy could expand beyond the suicide gank and hisec miners could command a higher value price for their work instead of grovelling for crumbs.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.19 01:12:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Outside of the distributions of higher end moons based on region, availability of skill books and original blueprints, I do not see any game mechanic obstacles to a 0.0 entity being self-sufficient today given the desire.



I have to disagree. There are never enough minerals especially low-ends. Alone our corp will need about 8 Battleships, 5 Battlecruisers, some haulers and some frigates just to get even on the losses of an average day. Thats only for T1. We will usually burn more ammunition than a single bpo can produce, thats for PvE, since for fleet one will use Faction/T2 ammo.

Even if I had the minerals (that would mean someone mines, which would mean it gets them the same amount of isk as pve), I would lack the slots. I need battleships/cruisers from most races, which ties 8 slots, at least 4 different types of ammo, another 4 slots. Some haulers, another 4 slots, some capital parts for lost carriers, 12 slots, the carriers themselves 4 slots, the occassionally freighter and yes some drones, oh and some containers, oh some cyno field stuff, wait there are some other fitting slots on a ship.

Then lets get started with T2 production......not?


Is the goal of your corporation to live in 0.0 without having to go to empire space for anything except skillbooks & blueprints (things you can fit in a Covert Ops)? Probably not.

My statement was that the resources are available for those who have the goal of self-sufficiency. Self-sufficiency does not necessarily equal profitability.

The obstacles you mention are player motivation and practices, not game mechanics.

A group of players can operate labs, refineries, and factories (Starbases & Outposts), mine the minerals and ice, run the PI colonies, and mine the moon goo for all the raw materials to maintain the facilities and build any T1 or T2 item they want in null sec (moon goo currently requires some trade with other null sec inhabitants). T2 invention requires datacores (exploration or research agents), so there is a need to go to high-sec routinely if you invent T2.

Is this cost effective or efficient? No.

Doable? If that is the goal for a group of players, yes.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:05:00 - [100]
 

You want industry?
After you remove Ice from high sec? Not going to happen. You remove ice from high sec your going to kill industry off.

The main reason no one produces anything in 0.0 is because the outposts where you would keep those expensive BPO's can be taken off you and locked down by the enemy alliance. Why buy a BPO worth a couple of bill only to have some alliance take the outpost and lock you out ?
And it will have to be a BPO because you wont have a pos in high sec that can make copies anymore because there is no ice.

Also to produce tech 2 in 0.0 you would have to change the moon minerals. Or the tech 2 production of items.

The majority of the people who live in 0.0 are not industrialists or researchers the pvp'ers do not want them out there. I have listened to many people who pvp and they think that industry should be removed from the game and all the items be dropped by rats or supplied by the npc market. I have heard them on team speak and vent. (There are also other good voip programs as well).

In my experiance the pvp guys in alliances loathe to help the ones who mine and often think they should stay in high sec. You will never get tech 2 to be produced in 0.0 while this mind set exists within Eve players.

How are people going to produce tech 1 items in high sec if you remove the ice? They wont have a pos to make it anymore and there are not enough industry slots in the stations.

How are people going to produce tech 3 items in wormhole space/high sec if you remove ice from high sec? They wont have a pos to research and engineer the items.

Moon goo will have to be made despawnable and to have it move about the map of New Eden to allow everyone a chance to mine it to build tech 2. Or your just going to stagnate and market fix the prices and alliances who hold the expensive moons.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:14:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Kiran

The main reason no one produces anything in 0.0 is because the outposts where you would keep those expensive BPO's can be taken off you and locked down by the enemy alliance. Why buy a BPO worth a couple of bill only to have some alliance take the outpost and lock you out ?
And it will have to be a BPO because you wont have a pos in high sec that can make copies anymore because there is no ice.

Couldn't the 0.0 guys who have all the available ice belts in the game at their disposal fuel hisec POSs?. I mean, you'd still be screwed, but they'd be fine under this scenario.

Also, NPC 0.0 stations.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:22:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Kiran

The main reason no one produces anything in 0.0 is because the outposts where you would keep those expensive BPO's can be taken off you and locked down by the enemy alliance. Why buy a BPO worth a couple of bill only to have some alliance take the outpost and lock you out ?
And it will have to be a BPO because you wont have a pos in high sec that can make copies anymore because there is no ice.

Couldn't the 0.0 guys who have all the available ice belts in the game at their disposal fuel hisec POSs?. I mean, you'd still be screwed, but they'd be fine under this scenario.

Also, NPC 0.0 stations.



And again your giving more power to the mega alliances. They would control everything from the market to who has ice for pos'es. The smaller corps and alliances would not be able to compete against them.
Even now some major alliance control high end moons in npc space, how easy will it be for them to also control the ice belts as well ?

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:34:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Kiran
And again your giving more power to the mega alliances. They would control everything from the market to who has ice for pos'es. The smaller corps and alliances would not be able to compete against them.
Even now some major alliance control high end moons in npc space, how easy will it be for them to also control the ice belts as well ?


Yes, and we can all clearly see how they use the moons to control who does T2 prduction and who doesn't, and no inventors are able to compete against them. Right.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:41:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Kiran
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Kiran

The main reason no one produces anything in 0.0 is because the outposts where you would keep those expensive BPO's can be taken off you and locked down by the enemy alliance. Why buy a BPO worth a couple of bill only to have some alliance take the outpost and lock you out ?
And it will have to be a BPO because you wont have a pos in high sec that can make copies anymore because there is no ice.

Couldn't the 0.0 guys who have all the available ice belts in the game at their disposal fuel hisec POSs?. I mean, you'd still be screwed, but they'd be fine under this scenario.

Also, NPC 0.0 stations.



And again your giving more power to the mega alliances. They would control everything from the market to who has ice for pos'es. The smaller corps and alliances would not be able to compete against them.
Even now some major alliance control high end moons in npc space, how easy will it be for them to also control the ice belts as well ?
The distribution of ice belts in 0.0 is spread in every region (and low-sec), so the scenario of one alliance monopolizing it is unlikely. As opposed to Technetium, which was a T2 bottleneck in a few regions all held by the Northern Coalition. No argument that that was a profoundly stupid move on CCP's end.

Fortunately the NC squandered it all away on RMT and fiscal malfeasance before being annihilated by guys who couldn't even get bounties for their rats, but oh well.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:23:00 - [105]
 

Eve's economy, though functional, has a number of things that are rather backwards. One of the backwards bits is the flows of types of wealth. ISK is just another commodity, like anything else in Eve. It takes time and effort to collect it.

The only thing that makes it different is that it is the one commodity considered "money." The concept of a common medium of exchange requires an agreement by everyone involved, this is what makes something money. This sort of evolution takes place in population centers, not in the lawless wilderness.

Some may think it radical, but here's the basic proposition - Remove ISK from Null sec and remove a majority of the other resources from high sec to low, null and WHs. High sec will be the source of ISK, and everyplace else will be the source of what ISK is used to purchase.

Plenty of ISK will flow outwards and plenty of materials will flow inwards.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.19 11:51:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Kiran
And again your giving more power to the mega alliances. They would control everything from the market to who has ice for pos'es. The smaller corps and alliances would not be able to compete against them.
Even now some major alliance control high end moons in npc space, how easy will it be for them to also control the ice belts as well ?


Yes, and we can all clearly see how they use the moons to control who does T2 prduction and who doesn't, and no inventors are able to compete against them. Right.

On the one hand there is not much point attempting to exert that control at the moment because something in the range of 50-70% of all isk from T2 sales goes directly to the sellers of the moon mins. The inventor producer cut of T2 sales is far smaller (c. 10% with the balance going to the producers of the invention mats) than that which flows to nullsec already. Secondly, it would be a pain in the arse to organise currently. But if an emphasis on T2 production in nullsec was implemented badly nullsec alliances could end up with a collective monopoly by default (under any scenario whereby the edge nullsec has is sufficiently large to make T2 production outside null unviable if this is combined with a failure to implement an adequate change to sov mechnaics such that non-sov holders can carry out production in null efficiently).

Quies Askiras
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:21:00 - [107]
 

sorry .... but why not move your industrial 0.0?
It would be a start.
In truth, the reality is that your (is exemple not personal)followers are first that dont want to risk their assets, (BPOS etcetc….so where’s the risk profit rate that claim for others?) individual, corp or alliance.
The production of t2 is not a problem because the killoboards say that the overwhelming numerical majority of ships are used and lost and maybe economic t1.
You do not need to have an industrialist alt in empire, nothing prevents toskill to be industrial or researcher and combat at same time at same char ... nothing except the time needed
Perhaps for this reason that 80-90% of pseudo-0.0-residents have an alt in Empire.
Is not true that the 0.0 does not permit to produce or mine, at this time, but that requires more time and more organization than spamming "Fleet Fleet me go to my roaming" ... escort Fleets Mining is boring and kills rats do not generate killmail
But you can not claim to 1 cicle for 100000000 tritanium, idem other minerals just cause mining is boring and a waste of time in pvpers idea
Without ships, and fight without protection ... do not build this idea and would work if the fighters do not even now find it easier to build an empire afk instead of working with industrial nullsec.
You blame industialists cause they work only for theirselves but the same is true for many fighters who work only for their kb.
As long as things remain as now, CCP will be able to remove/modify anything but the populate null-sec problem will remain and many ppl who don’t care about KB or to be the top killer of the day will remain where they are or will quit the game.


catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:47:00 - [108]
 

As so many posters already stated the people who control nullsec are notinterested in industry , except. how fast caps can be build,
There are indeed people who try to build. A smallindustry there , i admire that and i also respect the argument of the posters who says otherwise

Sadtruth is that when you are a industrialistyou are looked down upon isometimes even worse than renters
The few times i tried to apply. In a nullsec alliance with my industrial character( 38 mil sp ) a few several times i was asked if icould fly a maelstom in this or this fitting , each time my answer was , never mind thank you for your time , few other times the y were honest enough to tell me I didnt had any combat skills and so no use to them

That says enough about the mentallity of most nullsec alliances

Reading more and more post about this subject makes me wonder .... Does nullsec really need a industrial boost or is ccp just going to give them the tools to grief all high sec industrialits/ miners

Ajurna Jakar
Gallente
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.19 14:17:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.

Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


would a simple solution not be just make capital construction parts have a smaller volume so that they dont require a million freighter loads? isnt the only reason there are tonnes of freighters going back and forth full of trit for cap and supercap construction. this is easily justifiable if you check the mineral compression ratio versus 425 railguns.

AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.08.19 21:58:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ms Michigan
Edited by: Ms Michigan on 17/08/2011 05:40:26
Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
I think the principle

Quote:
"Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"


won't work.

A better principle would be

"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"


THIS
. It is the only way to keep balance CCP. GREAT POST Seraphina. Sums it all up.




Yup, this is the direction I'm increasingly leaning in, based on the feedback we've been getting here.


I don't see much benefit. If a ship or ammo costs 110% or 140% of the Jita price in your deep 0.0 or C6 then it is merely annoying but you need them there and you just then have to see if you have the logistics and is this the best use of the m^3 you have going to town that will be back before you need them.

However, if you are producing in Empire, it is a distinction without a difference as to whether you can not produce an item or whether you can produce it but your production cost is higher than Jita sales price. ( Even if you have your special snowflake location ten jumps outside of Hek where it sells for 300% of Jita, you don't manufacture if Jita price + shipping < your manufacturing cost. )

So while it adds value, it does not seem worth spending a whole lot of development resource on allowing Empire industrialist the theoretical ability to produce goods they never will produce.

Dr Cedric
Caldari
Orbital Industry and Research.
Posted - 2011.08.19 23:44:00 - [111]
 

So, these are some random thoughts. I'm not the biggest producer, nor do I regularly mine in 0.0, nor do I spend my time transporting goods. I'll just do my best here : )

IDEA #1
Lots of minerals are obtained from refining dropped loot. This has been brought up before as a possible issue in so much as an entity could transport modules and refine them instead of worrying about mining for the minerals. I'm sure there are other (possible) issues for this. My idea is to make refining loot/modules give back a single "substrate." This substrate could then be placed into a reaction (at a POS or outpost only)to yield minerals, the catch being that better reaction blueprints give better amounts, and there are different blueprints to give each of the different minerals. High sec refining would also yield the substrate, but there should be a diminished return compared to low-sec/null refineries and also be subject to standings issues.

IDEA #2
We want to encourage people in 0.0 space to build there, which will allow trade there. My idea is to create more hurdles in high-sec space for builders. A better way to say it is this: make a high sec builder go through more steps to get to the end product. Add a "production license" into the material requirement for high sec station production slots. These could add a nominal cost to each item produced, and requires another step for the high-sec builder. Another step is to make standings play a part in station production (as far as the duration of a build job...I believe there is no such mechanism at this point.) The better the standings, the faster the station finishes your stuff (introduce a manufacturing agent that is in charge of the station production to facilitate this.) The last extra step would be to create "short-cuts" in 0.0 production. The idea here being that at a production facility, you can circumvent safety protocols necessary in high-sec and thereby speed your production ability...at the cost of potentially damaging the outpost/POS manufacturing arrays. Outpost owners can set a threshold for this, outpost dwellers would continually be encouraged to repair their station's facilities and it would be another target for small gangs. POS owners would have the same situation, but with greater leeway in how "safe" or "dangerous" they make their production lines. Lastly, Blueprint research could add a "buffer" to how many shortcuts you can take, but this can only be researched in low/null-sec.

IDEA #3
The last idea runs along the lines of the rest. Making more hurdles for high-sec manufacturers, with this idea being focused on T2 production. Right now most T2 production happens in high sec, with the end products being shipped out to null sec. My idea would be to add another type of license, this one named "interstellar transport license." You'd need to purchase this license from another agent (perhaps the same as your manufacturing agent) and it would be required by frieghter, jump frieghter, Orca and other High-sec capable capital class ships to move large volumes of items. There would be an "allowed" volume of items (say any size ship, and T2 module volume in excess of 5,000m3...maybe more). The better your agent standing, the faster you get your license (maybe permit is a better term) and the more total volume you can carry. There would be tariffs at constellation jumps for moving goods without the permit. Again, this adds a mundane task that high-sec dwellers could stomach, add a minimal cost, and (hopefully) would only affect those that are moving huge amounts of goods. In 0.0 sec, and low-sec as well, these permits wouldn't be needed and would encourage local production (in 0.0) to avoid the hassle of high-sec item gathering.

I hope these ideas add to the discussion and spark more conversation. Please discuss any points, and thanks for your time!

Ced

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:02:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Dr Cedric
So, these are some random thoughts. I'm not the biggest producer, nor do I regularly mine in 0.0, nor do I spend my time transporting goods. I'll just do my best here : )

IDEA #3
The last idea runs along the lines of the rest. Making more hurdles for high-sec manufacturers, with this idea being focused on T2 production. Right now most T2 production happens in high sec, with the end products being shipped out to null sec. My idea would be to add another type of license, this one named "interstellar transport license." You'd need to purchase this license from another agent (perhaps the same as your manufacturing agent) and it would be required by frieghter, jump frieghter, Orca and other High-sec capable capital class ships to move large volumes of items. There would be an "allowed" volume of items (say any size ship, and T2 module volume in excess of 5,000m3...maybe more). The better your agent standing, the faster you get your license (maybe permit is a better term) and the more total volume you can carry. There would be tariffs at constellation jumps for moving goods without the permit. Again, this adds a mundane task that high-sec dwellers could stomach, add a minimal cost, and (hopefully) would only affect those that are moving huge amounts of goods. In 0.0 sec, and low-sec as well, these permits wouldn't be needed and would encourage local production (in 0.0) to avoid the hassle of high-sec item gathering.

I hope these ideas add to the discussion and spark more conversation. Please discuss any points, and thanks for your time!

Ced


T2 Production will just move to negonesec aka wspace :P Plus it would be ****ing in the cheerios of corps that live in wspace and use lots of T2 for pvping in null where we can't dock obviously but wormholes given us access to 90% of null in 2 jumps :D

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2011.08.20 04:35:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 20/08/2011 04:37:55

I just had a bit of an idea about how to make all of nullsec self-sufficient for T2 production without totally wrecking the strategic value of rare moons. Introduce a new nullsec-only POS module, the particle accelerator, which converts moon minerals into other moon minerals. Tie it to an infrastructure upgrade so that an alliance has to dedicate specific systems as their accelerator farms. The accelerator could, for example, take any R16 moon mineral as an input and output the same quantity of anotehr R16 or half the quantity of an R32.

This makes it so that no matter what moons you have, you can construct a POS chain that eventually reacts any advanced material. But if you have access to good moons, you get more material than someone creating it with a particle accelerator. If you want to limit the materials to being used locally, you could make it so the accelerator can't deposit in a silo but can feed into a reactor. Just say the output is radioactive or unstable or something.

If you want to NOT make these industrial networks a complete logistical nightmare, then introduce a material transporter POS module that links to another on a starbase in the same system. So you could pipe the output from a simple reactor into a teleporter, which is linked to a second teleporter on another starbase in the system. Then you'd link the output that teleporter to a complex reactor. That would eliminate all of the manual shuffling around of materials and make the difficulty be in setting up the network initially and modifying it when material demands change. Less of a second job for industrialists and more of a complicated to set up infrastructure that is hella useful when invested in. Seems to mesh with your goals perfectly.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.20 06:54:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 20/08/2011 04:37:55

I just had a bit of an idea about how to make all of nullsec self-sufficient for T2 production without totally wrecking the strategic value of rare moons. Introduce a new nullsec-only POS module, the particle accelerator, which converts moon minerals into other moon minerals. Tie it to an infrastructure upgrade so that an alliance has to dedicate specific systems as their accelerator farms. The accelerator could, for example, take any R16 moon mineral as an input and output the same quantity of anotehr R16 or half the quantity of an R32.

This makes it so that no matter what moons you have, you can construct a POS chain that eventually reacts any advanced material. But if you have access to good moons, you get more material than someone creating it with a particle accelerator. If you want to limit the materials to being used locally, you could make it so the accelerator can't deposit in a silo but can feed into a reactor. Just say the output is radioactive or unstable or something.

If you want to NOT make these industrial networks a complete logistical nightmare, then introduce a material transporter POS module that links to another on a starbase in the same system. So you could pipe the output from a simple reactor into a teleporter, which is linked to a second teleporter on another starbase in the system. Then you'd link the output that teleporter to a complex reactor. That would eliminate all of the manual shuffling around of materials and make the difficulty be in setting up the network initially and modifying it when material demands change. Less of a second job for industrialists and more of a complicated to set up infrastructure that is hella useful when invested in. Seems to mesh with your goals perfectly.


You mean like Alchemy?

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2011.08.20 14:31:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 20/08/2011 14:32:56
Originally by: Dex Nederland
You mean like Alchemy?

Yes and no; Alchemy was basically a hack to break the strategic value of Dysprosium and Promethium moons (without coding anything new) by introducing a few new reactions and items. The current Alchemy system doesn't integrate with active reaction chains because it requires that you collect the material and refine it manually. It's also only used to replace the Dysprosium, Promethium, Neodymium and Thulium in products, requiring that you have an abundance of extra Platinum, Cadmium, Vanadium and Chromium moons to pick up the slack. There's plenty of that around, but even with alchemy you're not guaranteed to get all the materials within one constellation to construct full T2 production chains for even a handful of components.

If nullsec is to be self-sufficient for T2 production, we need a universal alchemy. Either an extension of the alchemy system or a new system. I suggest this new system because, combined with the material transporter, it allows alliances to invest in local infrastructure that's largely automated rather than having to manually shuffle materials out every single week. As someone with a LOT of experience running reactor farms, I can say for sure that it's one of the quickest ways to make a motivated player burn out on EVE. We NEED a way to build infrastructure to allow the production of an entire range of T2 components within one constellation, and I believe a uiversal alchemy with material transporter links between starbases is the optimum way to achieve this. There could of course be better solutions, and of course CCP might consider the workload in performing alchemy and shuffling materials around to be a necessary part of the process.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.20 21:32:00 - [116]
 

upgrading existing outposts is way too expensive.... its cheaper build a new outpost than it is to upgrade an existing one to tier2 upgrades.

reduce the cost of upgrading existing outposts to tier3 level to help reduce the station spammage.

Ten Bulls
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.20 22:41:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.



Simple solution, proper mineral compression.

At the moment, modules can be built in high sec hauling (to 0.0) and then reprocessed, gas cloud harvester give a compression ratio of 42:1 according to http://eve.battleclinic.com/ore_compression_calculator.php#compression

How about making a mineral compression stage, introduce a new BPO for each mineral type that allows mineral packages to be "Manufactured" from normal minerals.

Give it the compression ratio you think is fair.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.20 23:17:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 20/08/2011 23:17:56
give all outposts (except minmatar one) a default recycle centre. this wont refine ore/ice but it will allow loot to be reprocessed



Darknilas
Chosen Frozen Industries
Posted - 2011.08.20 23:47:00 - [119]
 

My 2 cents about the proposed Design Goals changes, they would cause the many corporations similar to mine (2 RL players) that are only industrialists and miners to call it quits.
We have carved out our own enjoyable niche in EVE, we want to stay small and our own boss.

Now you are going to try to get us move to nullsec because you are going to nerf hisec industry so we can't make things that we do now. Corps like mine have worked hard to get where we are and have billions invested in our inventory and assets.

We can't afford to move to Nullsec and still carry on our normal business; we are too small to protect ourselves. And can not afford paying high rent assuming we can find a place or hire protection.

Seniae 0n3
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:10:00 - [120]
 

Alright so you want nullsec to be self-sufficient and increase the people going to nullsec for whatever reason. In this case/thread moving industry there.

Sorry but I will never ever go there. The mentality of people there is not even worth the effort. You can't fly through there without being ganked because you fly throught "their" space. If it's not their space they just gatecamp for the heck of it 24/7. Even as a small corp, which has absolutely no chance against those guys, they just can't help themselves and must blow you up. They want to act like outcast let them be outcast.

Let them be self-sufficient and cut them off from the rest of the players. No more safe fly throughs for nullsec corps (or people living in nullsec) in hisec, let Concord have their way with them over in hisec. Give hisec back the moongoo and let hisec keep whatever is there or even make it better. Let nullsec have whatever they need to be "self-sufficient" and make it better. Just set the right set of boundaries.

At least in hisec you can CHOOSE to pvp (whether it be faction war or consentual jetcan stealing to escape the wraths of Concord) or not, it's the variety of choices and unique gameplay that comes with each choice, that I play this MMO and yeah even pay for.


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