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MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:29:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: MeBiatch on 16/08/2011 15:58:55
MAKE IT SO TECH II BPO'S CANT MAKE SHIPS/MODS THEY CAN ONLY BE COPIED AND ONLY BE COPIED IN A 0.0 CONQERABLE STATION (CALDARI)

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:37:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Miraqu

Having 10 players mining with rorqual support will net far less than having those 10 players do sanctums and use the money to buy the needed stuff in Jita.




You can't have it both ways. Your previous post said that nullsec industry is hard because of the enormous efforts involved in arranging the logistics of getting things from Jita whilst this post makes the cost (effort/isk) of getting things from Jita virtually non-existent. Pick one (I would go with the one in the quoted post).

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:51:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


Erm ... really? Did mineral compression get nerfed in Incarna?

Last time I got a quote for compressing all the mins for a supercarrier, I found they could fit into 2-3 jump-freighter loads or less than one freighter. You are creating a problem by talking about uncompressed volumes but nobody actually moves minerals like that (do they?). If this is really 'the core problem' you are trying to address and the main reason for the self-sufficiency push, I can only say WTF?!

McCathie
Gallente
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:03:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: McCathie on 16/08/2011 16:04:17
Edited by: McCathie on 16/08/2011 16:03:46
CCP Greyscale,

These proposed changes fill me with no small amount of dread. I am hoping you can reassure me.

I enjoy industry, i am a carebear and proud of it. I hate 0.0, its politics, its wars ctas etc. i play to chill out after a hard days work, and dont ever want to be told to stop what i am doing to do something i dont want to do because some uber alliance guy says so. As out corp motto goes, its supposed to be fun, right?

my main activity is t2 production in empire, where i invent, move stuf, build and sell it.

Are you telling that with my years of skill points, training etc in order to do what i do, you no longer want me to do it? if i dont go to 0.0 i have to just suck it up stop making isk.


Really, i just want an answer to what someone who doesnt want to go to null sec who is into industry is supposed to do? Its not clear from what has ben posted so far that this has been considered. I appreciate the whole of the changes are an attempt to get me out there - but i just dont see it. please think of all your players here - not just the ones who already control most of the games resources who appear to just want all the rest.

I used to moon mines in lo sec - despite being fairly skilled and having quite a few friends with capitals we were kicked out by folk from a huge alliance using moms and multi cap ship fleets to take out our pos's on fairly basic lo sec moons. it got to the stage now that only null sec alliances control lo sec moons - now it looks like you are taking away any opportunity for folk in hi sec to enjoy the game.

Please think about this carefully before you break the game.

i deal with strategy for a living. Its completely flawed to consider strategy for one part of the game without considering the the impact across the whole game from the outset. - you appear to be designing the game around what you want null sec to be and then dealing with the implications for everywhere else. This doesnt seem like a good way of looking after all your customers to me.

Mcc

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:35:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: RAW23

You can't have it both ways. Your previous post said that nullsec industry is hard because of the enormous efforts involved in arranging the logistics of getting things from Jita whilst this post makes the cost (effort/isk) of getting things from Jita virtually non-existent. Pick one (I would go with the one in the quoted post).



It was to outline what industry in 0.0 has become. I would be glad if one could use local minerals but it is simply more cost efficient to jump everything in from Jita (this includes the minerals, the compressing if needed, the jump fuel, even write-downs for the jump freighter) than to mine locally.

All this effort is cheaper if you have the same amount of players killing rats as you would need in the mining gang.

And it doesn't even cover the (enormous) effort needed to even convince the players not just to mine ABC but something that could be used.

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:42:00 - [66]
 

As per the most up-to-date version of my nullsec proposal...

Make outposts modular, and remove caps on the number that can be anchored in a given system. Let players add the amount of industrial infrastructure that the market demands. Allow some nullsec-only infrastructure to be 'enhanced' or more efficient (i.e., advantaged over empire production).

Arushia
Nova Labs
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:51:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Lorminator
Dear CCP - as a high-sec T2 producer, I feel Null already has an advantage -- for one, they have more materials available, both minerals and moon-goo. On top of that, they don't have to spend ages ruining their standings to half the factions in order to be able to setup a POS somewhere.



This. Low/null already has the advantage of actual access to moon goo and easier POS setup. Null is where the resources have to be gathered (seen Morphite in high-sec? OK yes, but let's remove it from drone mission loot), high is where they're put together into gear and sold. That is the current nature of EVE and does not need a radical change.

One hangup I do see in doing actual T2 production in null is there are no research agents to provide datacores. This could possible be fixed by lots of well-stocked Radar sites.

As for research agents, the current model of passive datacore accumulation is boring. Perhaps they should be changed to an agent type that gives missions that involve archaeology/hacking/salvaging under enemy fire.

Short summary: Remove high ends from mission rogue drone drops, add more datacores to null, make research agents more interesting and interactive.

Lady Zarrina
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:10:00 - [68]
 

I do not agree with this null sec industry push at all. They control T2 production already via moongoo.

There is a reason why Ford, GM, Boeing, etc do not make their crap in Somalia. This goes against every fiber of common sense. This has to be a money grab or perhaps tied to some future ill-designed "feature" of DUST.

Orisa Medeem
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:37:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: El 1974
I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to make 0.0 more self-sufficient. The current economic model works. 0.0 activities are only profitable as long as high sec has something valueable to trade back for it. If you nerf that you will wreck the economy. Let the carebears do the grinding so you can keep 0.0 as the land of opportunity and adventure.
At most make some small changes. If you want industry in 0.0 then develop it on planets (Dust). Dust could be a competitor for highsec where 0.0 alliances will require effective control over space and invest in orbital structures.


The core problem we're trying to address is that the minerals for a Revelation are 1.5m m3, which is around 1.5 freighters. Fifty dreads (ie, a decent pre-supercarrier fleet battle) require 75 freighters full of minerals. Once you start building capital ships (never mind supercaps) the volumes moved start to get silly. We still want trade, we still want a healthy amount of stuff moving back and forth, but we want that amount of stuff to be sane as well, which it currently isn't.

Further, we can't really make logistics more interesting and meaningful (and vulnerable!) until we fix this issue, because the amount of stuff you need to move just to stay competitive with what other alliances have already built is too big to be viable if logistics get much more difficult. We need to tackle this problem from both ends at once.


If that's then case then focus on the problem. Create the super-compressed veldspar, each made from 2 million units of veldspar, takes some 200m3 and could be manufactured anywhere, not just in the rorqual.

The problem is, this is such a cutting-edge technology that empire installations cannot refine them. Doing so is only possible with capsuleer exclusive technology available in nullsec refining lines.

The same solution could be used in a lesser extent for the other low-end sources and this would reduce those volume figures by ten to twenty times.

Also, since once created they are useless in empire there is no risk of a massive low-end influx from nullsec to highsec.

Imuran
Zentor Industries
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:43:00 - [70]
 

How about solving Alliance use of Mobile labs for copying, invention and assembly arrays for manufacturing - scalable facilities there

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:10:00 - [71]
 

I think T2 production is too well embedded into the psyche of Empire to be easily clawed back to Null Sec.

However you do have an opportunity with respect to what might be needed to be manufactured through and for DUST514.

If the flow of ships is Empire > Null Sec, the flow of DUST weaponry could (conceivably) be Null Sec > Empire. The planets themselves, contested through DUST514 (at least in part) would provide integral value to Null Sec residents whilst being desirable to Empire players (as an import from Null).

C.


Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:33:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Personal Industrial Arrays


It's a good idea, but it's a niche we'd rather fill with redesigned starbases I think. We do definitely need to increase the manufacturing bandwidth of individual players though, for sure.


Now THAT would be fantastic! Very Happy

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:33:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Nomad III

Industry
If 0.0 pilots are able to be self sufficient, it's breaking the greater rules of acting together. That means every modern society depending on global rules of trade. But according to those ideas we are on the way back to the middelages.

I propose a different strategy: Make trade between hostiles in 0.0 possible so that the interconnection between all pilots is visible and has consequences.

For example give some station types a special rule as a trader haven. Ships like JF and haulers are able to dock without getting harrased.




This is a really cool idea. Something like this would encourage interaction peacefully in a small that could lead to big way (i.e. true sandbox - here borrow my shovel for a few minutes) without CCP having to do a treaty system that they said they already would not be able to do).

Also - industry in 0.0 - my two cents. More slots like already said.

One gripe though - hi sec building just can't be useless by just making it T1 production. Null sec can do T1 production too. What is going to make building anything in HISEC worthwhile then if it is just relegated to cruddy T1 modules people only use for weeks until they can train to T2??? If you are going to do this make T1 ONLY in HI-SEC or get rid of LOOT drops ALL TOGETHER to create more demand for T1 modules all around in game. Salvage would suffer but maybe we can make ships drop just named T1 only instead of that AND regular T1.

You have to let hi-sec partake in T2 to some extent in other words. I PERSONALLY would like to see T2 moon goo in hi-sec as well. Make it an exploration find thing that you can get from Comets and just in very small quanties. Enough for builders to build for their needs in hi-sec (increase it more in low sec and then LUCRATIVE in NULL SEC as you PLAN to do). The hi-sec need is still there to build so that starting builders can learn the profession and also have some value to their corp as the corp grows (and grow they will if they can build until they MOVE TO NULL SOMEDAY.) Just a thought! KEEP THE PROGRESSION IN GAME. DON'T NERF Hi-sec just buff null sec and make them independent through lab slots and trade and other creative approaches to industry.


Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:37:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 17/08/2011 05:40:26
Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
I think the principle

Quote:
"Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"


won't work.

A better principle would be

"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"


THIS
. It is the only way to keep balance CCP. GREAT POST Seraphina. Sums it all up.


P.S. DON'T NERF Hi-sec by MAKING them only build T1 - Did it ever occur to you that some people don't or can't go to NULL? Many like myself don't want to go because I don't want to have to be subject to the politics B.S. Let me make all my stuff in hi-sec for my tiny corp and just keep profits low by following the above. THANK YOU!!

Katmande
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:25:00 - [75]
 

I hope you rethink T-2 prodtion in null Sec. I have no desire to play in null sec. I have played there and do want to move back. I have two accounts. My main account is geared to low sec PVP and my alt account is geared towared high sec T-2 industry.

If you try and force my industry alt account to null sec, I will just cancel the account. I may just cancel them both since the industry account funds the PVP account. This seems like a dramitic change. I have trained a lot of skills that will become worthless to me if you make T-2 a null sec activity. I am all for game improvements but this seems like too big a change.

These changes do not make sense from a role play perspective to me either. High Tech industry is based in high population areas with stabilty and safety. You do not find large industry bases out in the fronter. Null Sec should be a source or raw materials but industy should stay near the major population center for each race.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.17 13:47:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Ms Michigan
Edited by: Ms Michigan on 17/08/2011 05:40:26
Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
I think the principle

Quote:
"Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"


won't work.

A better principle would be

"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"


THIS
. It is the only way to keep balance CCP. GREAT POST Seraphina. Sums it all up.




Yup, this is the direction I'm increasingly leaning in, based on the feedback we've been getting here.

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:53:00 - [77]
 

and it makes perfect sense and ties into sov and why youd want to hold space, AND would intergrate with story

in empire you have massive overheads and bills to the grim faced corporations of the empires and limited slots, in lowsec its a little faster and looser but still you get slots at the whimsy of the corps,

in null its your station, your factories and your in control, no overheads, no taxes just mass production

Lili Lu
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:08:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ms Michigan
Edited by: Ms Michigan on 17/08/2011 05:40:26
Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
I think the principle

Quote:
"Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"


won't work.

A better principle would be

"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"


THIS
. It is the only way to keep balance CCP. GREAT POST Seraphina. Sums it all up.




Yup, this is the direction I'm increasingly leaning in, based on the feedback we've been getting here.


You have to be careful. There are a lot of solo/small group producers in empire that only log on for an hour or two who you risk losing if you make their gaming unprofitable and therefore no fun. You cannot force these folks to become serfs to nillsec alliance overlords. They will instead just quit the game.

Removing ice from empire, making tech II production too expensive, etc is all stupid. Noone produces or buys base tech I mods as long as those very mods and better named ones drop from mission loot. So what are the empire producers going to manufacture and sell?

However, possibly if you remove mission/belt rat loot drops altogether. And introduce T1-named mod invention giving empire producers a bonus to that, which no other sector would get, then that might preserve a reason to engage in industry in empire.

Please also read my comments in the mining thread. Solo and small empire corps are casual players who don't want to become serfs to 0.0 overlords. Removing ice from empire or coding it to only respawn after downtime would just further skew the resource extraction and production abilities in favor of eastern europeans. Poeple coming home from work in the americas are already screwed for belts and exploration content (and in 0.0 officer spawns etc). Do you guys want to lose those players? They will not accept slavery in 0.0.

It seems to me also that you are presuming the widespread belief that players are either highsec bears or nullsec pvpers. For some this is true. But, for many people we do both, either simultaneously or sequentially, and for many of your customers they are neither (i.e. lowsec dwellers, faction war, pirates, wormholers, etc.). These blogs seem to be focused on forcing everyone to become nullsec slaves. It will not work and you will lose many customers.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:28:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Ms Michigan on 17/08/2011 15:38:33
One more thought -

Let's get this thread moving into OTHER industry topics instead of just the balance of sec status.

A few ideas:

1) You brought up ore that is needed to build cap ships in huge amounts...I saw the post about compression though. It should be stated again for importance that one needs to have an industry wing with a RORQ doing compression to build Cap ships. Simply put! This whole moving 45 freighters full didn't take into account compression is my guess as someone pointed out so to me it is a moot point.

2) Speaking of ORE - people complain about Drone regions - too much mineral drone drops I guess? But here is my thing - I don't see a problem (never lived there though so flame on) with this. They don't get Sanctums and other cool things - they have to have something right? This allows them more ore easier to build cap ships and move out of that area right? If the ore amount is still TOO much ---then nerf it a little and I suggest CCP look at BUFFING faction drones. This way you can buff drone part drops in drone regions and give them something good to be there for.

3) Let's look at other ways creatively of tweaking Null sec and low sec. I don't have many ideas as I didn't live there a long time but I just wanted to get this thred opening up into other creative solutions.

4) Maybe making more achorable items that require SOV? I PERSONALLY am for (As a lot of other posters in a alot of other threads have echoed as well) If low sec has local but 0.0 does not (I hope this comes true).

Maybe you can make a new SOV anchorable structures that allows the RESIDENTS ONLY to have local and see who is in system (even if they are cloaked). (To clarify it does not decloak them). This evens out the advantage against the AFK cloaker who would prey on indy people picking up PI materials or Mining or transporting items, running exploration sites, etc). This would make 0.0 more worthwhile and buff industry big time. Now you have a RETURN on your investment but it can still be distrupted by small gangs that take the time to come in, drop combat probes and scan you down. If you aren't watching close enough or provide support for the RORQ/ORCA mining op - your hulks may get away, but the bigger stuff won't! SCALED REWARD/RISK.

It only makes sense imersion wise too to get rid of local in 0.0 (except maybe NPC 0.0?? where Pirate factions are?) This fits with the whole GRADIENT model we are tryin to build in this thread.


Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:28:00 - [80]
 

"99% self-sufficient by volume
◦For further discussion. People building things in nullsec should only need to travel to empire (or more than a couple of regions across nullsec) for low-volume supplies. This requires that industrialists have a ready supply of low-end minerals available nearby in nullsec, without breaking other systems or goals. (Likely means some way of mining low-ends in a massively more rapid manner compared to current tools.)"

So, you going to leave ABC in wormholes then so we can be self-sufficient in T3 industry? Going to add Ice to wormholes for that "99% self-sufficient" thing as well?

Wormholes are "more-null" than null. Keep it fair...

Arushia
Nova Labs
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:38:00 - [81]
 

Here's a thought to buff null-sec industry without nerfing anything:

Make is possible to perform ME/PE research on BPCs, including invented T2 BPCs, at outposts only. The justification being that your're breaking EVE's equivalent of the DMCA, and therefore must do so in lawless space.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:41:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Arushia
Here's a thought to buff null-sec industry without nerfing anything:

Make is possible to perform ME/PE research on BPCs, including invented T2 BPCs, at outposts only. The justification being that your're breaking EVE's equivalent of the DMCA, and therefore must do so in lawless space.


You'd need to include POS's in that as well, at least POS's in any system 0.0 and below, including wormholes.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:54:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 17/08/2011 22:59:14
Originally by: Arushia
Here's a thought to buff null-sec industry without nerfing anything:

Make is possible to perform ME/PE research on BPCs, including invented T2 BPCs, at outposts only. The justification being that your're breaking EVE's equivalent of the DMCA, and therefore must do so in lawless space.


Given the large percentage reductions in production costs gained by even a one point me bonus on invented BPCs even allowing minor improvements would probably give enough of an edge to simply put all highsec producers out of business. Given that profit margins on ships are generally in the 5-10% area per unit I would think that what is really needed is a maximum 3% edge for nullsec (rough figures). There may be more scope when it comes to modules as the margins are much higher on those. What might be better is purely a production speed bonus that will not give an edge on a per unit basis but will make running a production line more profitable (e.g. a reduction of a 1.5 day cycle to 1 day will provide a 33% profit boost on a production line that runs at full speed).

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:59:00 - [84]
 

Outside of the distributions of higher end moons based on region, availability of skill books and original blueprints, I do not see any game mechanic obstacles to a 0.0 entity being self-sufficient today given the desire.

I think CCP is looking for ways to encourage local industry in 0.0 and have 0.0 entities actually become their own little fiefdoms. I think the mechanics are already present. How players govern themselves and the resources they control is a bigger impact.

The benefit to doing 0.0 T2 industry is all the raw resources for T2 industry are in close proximity - from the Veldspar asteroid, to the R16+ moons, to the Gas Giants & Barren Planets. The player however has to make the choice to not go to Jita to buy their Tritanium, their Ferrofuild & Hexite, and their Coolant & Robotics.

At present, it is easier & safer for a few trusted industry & resource managers to deal with acquiring & selling the unique null-sec resources (R32+ moon goo) than allow grunts access to moon resources & starbase controls.

I think re-evaluating the Starbase concept (POS) and the mechanics of utilizing them might make it more appealing to build locally. But it is only one part of the equation.

Currently, Starbases are valuable, vulnerable assets (easily 1b isk for a basic tower) which require those who purchased them (bitter vets) to trust the assets users (grunts, noobs, spies, thieves, etc). There are not easy mechanisms to allow a grunt (someone that leadership does not trust) to utilize starbase labs & factories and support a moon mining operations by delivering fuel or transporting product to another location.

This plays into a larger discussion of corporation management tools and corporate industry.

AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:54:00 - [85]
 

It seems like CCP is pushing uphill both ways.

They are looking at adding all of these production opportunities and interesting game decisions in 0.0. Yet most of the people who would enjoy dealing with planning and logistic networks and supply chains and efficiency upgrades tend to be in hi sec.

It's not universal but many (most?) of the "0.0 people" want World of Tanks/Fighters/Battleships; in space; with griefing and without gold ammo. While it would be very difficult to get the industrialists interested in dealing with all the extraneous issues of 0.0, it's essentially impossible to entice people with these interests in "industry."

It feels wrong to me that this release seems to be about taking away options and enjoyment from hi sec industrialists and providing interesting game play for people who don't want it.

Two points:

1) I used to see these "I want to be an industrialist in 0.0" threads. And the advice seemed to be that production is done by alts and if you go there best case you are not respected and are expected to provide supplies at cost for the "real players" to PvP with. If CCP wants to push industry's contribution to the richness of the gameplay, then I think that there should be a cost to ignoring that. If an Alliance blob can continue to do the same things and ignore industry and mining and upgrading infrastructure, then it is going to be a lot tougher for industry to contribute much to the emergent gameplay in 0.0. Even raising the Sovereignty costs would not be enough if they would prefer to just run more sanctums/anoms/whatever-the-plan-is-to-ruin-hisec-R&D-agents to pay for it rather than producing in a POS. Cyno jammers only in systems with very developed industry? IMHO, being a large, wealthy non-pirate Alliance should require some industry.

2) Put yourself in the place of an EVE industrialist, especially a new one joining the game: would that person feel that they would get their $15/month worth for doing industry in Empire in EVE? This person doesn't know or care about CCP's desired risk/reward equations. If they feel that they are being repeatedly told they are a second-class citizen and playing incorrectly in the sandbox, then they may decide they don't want to spend $180 per annum for that privilege. I submit that if CCP manages to run off significant Empire dwellers, the revenue loss will effect the whole EVE ecosystem. After you do all the balancing, buffing and nerfing, just step back for a moment and see if there is enough left for a lot of people to want to pay for.




Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:03:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Outside of the distributions of higher end moons based on region, availability of skill books and original blueprints, I do not see any game mechanic obstacles to a 0.0 entity being self-sufficient today given the desire.



I have to disagree. There are never enough minerals especially low-ends. Alone our corp will need about 8 Battleships, 5 Battlecruisers, some haulers and some frigates just to get even on the losses of an average day. Thats only for T1. We will usually burn more ammunition than a single bpo can produce, thats for PvE, since for fleet one will use Faction/T2 ammo.

Even if I had the minerals (that would mean someone mines, which would mean it gets them the same amount of isk as pve), I would lack the slots. I need battleships/cruisers from most races, which ties 8 slots, at least 4 different types of ammo, another 4 slots. Some haulers, another 4 slots, some capital parts for lost carriers, 12 slots, the carriers themselves 4 slots, the occassionally freighter and yes some drones, oh and some containers, oh some cyno field stuff, wait there are some other fitting slots on a ship.

Then lets get started with T2 production......not?

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:41:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr

If they feel that they are being repeatedly told they are a second-class citizen and playing incorrectly in the sandbox, then they may decide they don't want to spend $180 per annum for that privilege. I submit that if CCP manages to run off significant Empire dwellers, the revenue loss will effect the whole EVE ecosystem. After you do all the balancing, buffing and nerfing, just step back for a moment and see if there is enough left for a lot of people to want to pay for.




The attitude works both ways. We have and had pilot which do and enjoy industry in 0.0 but most do not want to live in 0.0 they want highsec with more income.

Nobody in the whole alliance would even care if you mine/rat/plex/build as long as you are there when its home defense or CTA fleet. The CTA call goes out, ratters cease ratting, plexers cease plexing, miners cease mining and get to their fleet/pvp ships.

Yet if someone doesn't show up or worse gets killed by an enemy while he should have been in fleet anyway then those attitudes start.

Even with free T1 fitted cruisers (fleet requirement) and no loss beside a hour or 2 of mining, most of them simply did not care about security, even if we could entice them to join up in the first place. A nullsec corp doesn't work with 7 players.

Now we have the mess. Most alliances have "learned" not to bother with players who do not really want to live in 0.0 but want have their highsec jumping out with them.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:58:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Miraqu
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr

If they feel that they are being repeatedly told they are a second-class citizen and playing incorrectly in the sandbox, then they may decide they don't want to spend $180 per annum for that privilege. I submit that if CCP manages to run off significant Empire dwellers, the revenue loss will effect the whole EVE ecosystem. After you do all the balancing, buffing and nerfing, just step back for a moment and see if there is enough left for a lot of people to want to pay for.




The attitude works both ways. We have and had pilot which do and enjoy industry in 0.0 but most do not want to live in 0.0 they want highsec with more income.

Nobody in the whole alliance would even care if you mine/rat/plex/build as long as you are there when its home defense or CTA fleet. The CTA call goes out, ratters cease ratting, plexers cease plexing, miners cease mining and get to their fleet/pvp ships.

Yet if someone doesn't show up or worse gets killed by an enemy while he should have been in fleet anyway then those attitudes start.

Even with free T1 fitted cruisers (fleet requirement) and no loss beside a hour or 2 of mining, most of them simply did not care about security, even if we could entice them to join up in the first place. A nullsec corp doesn't work with 7 players.

Now we have the mess. Most alliances have "learned" not to bother with players who do not really want to live in 0.0 but want have their highsec jumping out with them.



And there is the problem with nullsec alliances they don t care beyond their moongoo and rattingbots, because they don t care nothing is being done except for small group of people struggling to make something good from their space
That is why i believe alliances should become smaller , , moongoo that depletes after a few months and then reapear on another random moon , sort like hotspots in pi
Better bonus on manufacturing,research and refining installations in nullsec

Nullsec delenda est

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:08:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Miraqu on 18/08/2011 09:30:39
Originally by: catinboots

And there is the problem with nullsec alliances they don t care beyond their moongoo and rattingbots, because they don t care nothing is being done except for small group of people struggling to make something good from their space
That is why i believe alliances should become smaller , , moongoo that depletes after a few months and then reapear on another random moon , sort like hotspots in pi
Better bonus on manufacturing,research and refining installations in nullsec

Nullsec delenda est


Edit: Clarified what I wanted to say.


I am inclined to believe you deliberately misunderstand.

The alliances have no problem with industry.

Moonminerals are rather irrelevant for industry (yes hard to believe for someone not in null?) because you never have the right combinations in your space and the average industrialist won't see even a scrap of them anyway, except he is the freighter pilot moving them to Jita.

Moons are alliance assets, most industry stuff works on the corp level. Getting a share is wishful thinking and not even worth to considerate. As long as gathering them is not a player activity, this won't change.

You will have to move to Jita anyways either to buy the moonminerals you also need or to buy the reactions. Also you usually need stuff for all races which alone would be a pain to react. Added into that is the POS-mechanic where shutting down a reactor also means the privileges to wreck most of your defense.

Maybe if you could react those minerals at an outpost this would be worth thinking about. If it stays as it is, this will not change.


0.0 industry means building stuff and taking your own security seriously. The 0.0 industrialist builds and does at least PvP to defend oneself.

In the end its mostly warped perceptions of the other. Nullsec means working together. Which means together at defense of your home. A defensive fleet with 10 players is a joke. On average a third of the players is online, so a successful nullsec corp is 50 or more players with usually more than 20 mil sp each, while an usual highsec industrial corp is about 3 - 15 players without alts.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:43:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 18/08/2011 09:44:43
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
1) I used to see these "I want to be an industrialist in 0.0" threads. And the advice seemed to be that production is done by alts and if you go there best case you are not respected and are expected to provide supplies at cost for the "real players" to PvP with.


This is an argument I keep seeing over and over, and frankly it's ridiculous.

Consider an average combat pilot in a 0.0 sov-holding alliance (so not a renter, small-holder, squatter, etc). I'd say that on average 25-50% of his playtime is spent in alliance fleets defending their space or taking more of it. This gives no personal benefit (aside from fun) to the player himself, in fact it even costs him in terms of ships lost (as few alliances replace everything including fittings).

On the contrary, all of the "I want to be an industrialist in 0.0" people seem to think that they will be able to do exactly the same thing they do in highsec already, all the time, get paid for it, perhaps even more than in highsec. Why exactly do you think any alliance would want you if you don't want to contribute a portion of your time (read: profits) to the good of the alliance, just as combat pilots do? If I were an alliance leader, I would be completely fine with letting industrial corps/players in, if they would share their time with the alliance in the same way combat players do.

Before you say "we help you stock your market", yes, you do that, but you don't do that to help the alliance - you do it to make ISK for yourself. Or would you be willingly building something that makes you lose ISK, just because it is currently lacking on the market? And finally, last point: think about how many people, skill points, ISK in blueprints, time, and infrastructure it would take to supply a 0.0 alliance with all the necessary ships and mods. Now compare that to the resources needed for one person to train for a JF and bring the needed items from Jita every week.

If industrialists want to get themselves accepted in 0.0 alliances, they first need to accept the fact that they will no longer be able to work exclusively for their own profits, but that they will need to dedicate time to building the alliance as well.


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