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Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:23:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Zirse
I just want to take a moment here to laugh at all the wormholers who spent the last few weeks tying women's underwear in knots.

Relax, bros.


How would you like if your billion isk a week polymer reaction industry got nerfed because some devs removed ABC forgetting it is required in the reactions? These same polymers are required for T3 production.

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:34:00 - [242]
 

If so many miners choose to mine out of whs despite the logistics chain poor refining efficiency and ship losses, what does that tell you about null sec and its citizens.

who would have more Intel available to them (local & Intel channels)
much better ability to protect there mining fleets, and easy logistics, jf and jbridge,

The question is WHY these people prefer to go through these wh short comings vrs just moving to null sec in the first place.

I spent 8 months in a wh and lost a few hulks, and then thought fudge it, occasionally id tap on a rock for some ore because we had completed all the combat sites some members mined seriously, but for the most part all there ore just got dumped into ship production and it never went very far,

So nullsec isn't broken, but to say they don't have the tools available already to fix there mineral shortage is ridiculous.
instead of cta's why not just have a weekly CTM!! and break out the mad alliance mining fleet.

Id also hazard a guess that botters play a much bigger role in crashing the min market, possibly more so on abc's in null than in wh's.

one must also look at the change in the ship type predominately flown, bc's are favored over bs's and consequentially a lower overall mineral demand.

If null peeps now want to pay 08 min prices to replace there ships you must be crazy.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:01:00 - [243]
 

Oh I agree that botters are responsible for a large part of the ABC crash, however that's neither here nor there.

The issue here was wormholes exceeding their intended role of :coolspace: and T3 production. EVE has been designed so that resources drive epic conflict. Its hard to fight (in a large scale) over resources in wormholes for obvious reasons, so they should be limited to a similarly specialized role in resource allocation: T3. As it turns out the ratios of ABC:lowends exceed the production ratios and are generating a not unsubstantial amount of excess ABC. This (along with botters, ofc) diminish the possibility for resource conflict in null-sec.

The idea that CCP was going to break wormholes to keep the nullsec botl0rds happy was, although quite amusing, also quite reetarded.

profundus fossura
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:38:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: profundus fossura on 18/08/2011 00:47:09
@ CCP greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.

This is not the case it reflects the fact that WH mining is really dangerous and that a fully fitted covetor costs 20-25 million and a fully fitted hulk 200 million so even experienced miners such as myself will use covetor on the rare occasions I mine in W space to minimise the risk, my corp and I am sure many others has a standing ban on using hulks in W space for this reason

Anyone using a hulk in a wormhole that does not have a full security setup with bubbled wormholes, logistic support,combat patrol and scouts watching and scanning for entrances/ships to back them up is an idiot and should be counted as already dead.

All of which means if you want to use hulks it's a major operation you then have to store several 100k cubic metres of ore in a large POS and then ship it out in orca or for low end wormholes industrial ships and all the pirates in local will notice a stead stream of haulers appearing in local every few minutes and come and gank you so you risk losing half the ore ore refine it all in there and lose 25% and have half your pos defences offline for best part of a day to get the CPU required




Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:45:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


A: null already has improved ores and a botting problem, and WH's still account for over 24% (averaged) of the three hi-ends? That does seem quite a bit.

Jesus, I don't even know what to say, that is *far* and away more than I thought it could possibly be.

Do you have a break down of where said ore is being mined? (Class 1's a big problem, or is this stuff in being mined in class 5/6)? If it's all 5's and 6's?

Do you have metrics on where these miner kills are coming from? Class ones being the covetor kills and 5's/6's being hulk kills? And did you really mean to say "safer" in WH's? 60% of all covetor kills come in WH's (mainly, I think, because WH'ers will more often use Covetors - better risk-isk reward).

What impact are drone regions having on production (WH's account for roughly 24% (averaged) of the high ends mined. How about *ALL* high ends produced?? What is the % of ores from mining, Loot Reprocessing and Drone poo? And then figure that WH's account for 24% (averaged) of the high ends *mined*. Do drones not drop any hi-end minerals anymore?

How much do WH's contribute towards the total mined/reprocessed and drone poo'd?

MORE INFORMATIONS PLEASE!Very Happy

(And thanks for the numbers - but again, I think this is a place where more detail is needed)!


PhantomOf Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:59:00 - [246]
 

Edited by: PhantomOf Caldari on 18/08/2011 02:30:11






You guys seriously thinkin why ore prices drops, why nullsec cant be improeved? Very Simple. Majorty of new players chosin mining profession. They dont like other aspects of Eve. Im miner myself with 3 of my toons. I m mining for hours sometimes I remember Cleand 3-4 belts in a day. Its been Almost 2 years Since I first started EVe and I never shot any1 and I dont want to shot in future. Im mining Im manufacturing , Im inventing. I have n o idea what plessure you get from those pew-pew. Do you fell succesfull, stronger when you shot other player's ship?

Moving Nullsec? Hell NO. Alliance fee, system renting,ABC ore mining fee. I have no intension to make couple nulsec bosses richer. I keep my profit litle lower instead of make those isk rich and pay their montly plexes.

Wormholes? yeah Its great advanture and You still can be your own bos. No mandatory CTA no fee for their war advantures. Believe me there are many people around me just like me. We all mine together all day and many have their own corporation and own WH POS. No CCP. We dont have to play this game as you like. We play this game how we want.


Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.18 01:11:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Messoroz on 18/08/2011 02:17:42
Edited by: Messoroz on 18/08/2011 01:12:37
Originally by: PhantomOf Caldari

You guys seriously thinkin why ore prices drops, why nullsec cant be improeved? Very Simple. Majorty of new players chosin minig profession. They dont like other aspects of Eve. Im miner myself with 3 of my toons. I m mining for hours sometimes I remember Cleand 3-4 belts in some days. Its been Almost 2 years Since I first started EVe and I never shot any1 and I dont want to shot in future. Im mining Im manufacturing , Im inventing.

Moving Nullsec? Hell NO. Alliance fee, system renting,ABC ore mining fee. I have no intension to make rich cpl nulsec bosses. I keep my profit litle lower instead of make those isk rich.
Wormholes? yeah Its great advanture and You still your own bos. No mandotory CTA no fee for their war advantures. Believe me there are many people around me just like me. We all mine together all day and many have tehir own WH POS. No CCP. We dont have to play this game as you like. We play this game how we want.




You just brought up another major point I feel Greyscale and others are overlooking.

Very few alliances out there care for the players, Goonswarm and TEST are literally the most freedom loving alliances I know from experience, there are no mandatory CTAs(sorta, they do not call for them unless absolutely needed like you know, giant ANTI BLUE ANTI BLOB coalition sbuing your systems and such), no fees, etc. Space communism at its finest. Many other alliances chose to do the opposite and I believe this could just be one of the important factors for miners that everybody is just looking over.

So CCP how about exploring the exact reasons why miners don't want to mine in nullsec behind BUT ITS SO FAR FROM EMPIRE!1111. There is more to issues than 2 dimensions, just like the risk vs. reward you go on about while COMPLETELY ignoring the other dimensions like effort and entertainment.

Zirise
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.18 01:16:00 - [248]
 

Confirming we love freedom and communism.

Contact me for recruitment details.

Charla Audin
Posted - 2011.08.18 03:10:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).


On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.



No No No No No.

WH space is dangerous and experienced players use covetors in WH because they are cheap and eay to replace. Only a novice uses an expensive hulk in WH space.

This just goes to show it is very dangerous to make assumptions even when you have data to support it.

Nyok Thiesant
Posted - 2011.08.18 03:16:00 - [250]
 

Edited by: Nyok Thiesant on 18/08/2011 03:24:30
Edit: this is primarily about mining in null vs High sec, but has implication on many other aspects as well.
Mining in HS = Push button + switch drones to kill rats, every 5 to 10 min. kinda boring, but gives cash.

Ice in smaller quantities in high sec, sure. but...
make a difference between High sec pos vs null sec pos. If there is no Ice in high sec, let a pos operate with out ice, but at 50%power and CPU, no reinforce, etc. you still get research happening in High sec, but your pos is way better in null sec.

Null sec mining: differentiate between small corp to large corp:: the higher the membership count of the soveirn corp, the more bad @$$ the rats are.
use Null sec "ratings" to determine how quickly this corp to rat counter factors. -0.1 space means that for corps under 30 members get weak rats, higher membership numbers get exponentially increasing attacks from rats. a big corp in -0.1 gets wildly overpowered rats and they HAVE to move out. that same big corp in -0.9 would see simple small rats again that they can manage on a continuous basis.


to make mining more interesting: small mining op (4 hulks) needs 1 cruiser to fight off the regular rats. make the rats primarily attack the combat ship FIRST, mining ships last. the "escort" is constantly fighting, the miners get to mine.
Big mining fleet (10+ hulks), require more powerful escort to fend off the rats. Again, rats attack combat ships first, and will focus/primary on the newest arrival, so if a raider comes along, he has to deal with the rats attacking first, before he can hit the hulks.

to encourage escorts for miners, yoU get good rat loot in mining belts if some one is actively mining. that way, both the miner, and the escort get cash and are happy.



High sec = T1 ships, Null sec = T2, WH = T3? if so, let players be able to collect all they need for T1 in high sec, and for T2 in null sec, etc. if you want T2 production, you go to null.


Small corp vs large corp: small corp has fewer members, really. so, use the member count and null sec "rating" to determine how the system responds. a big corp in -0.1 should get **** all from the system, but a small corp in the same system should find it profitable.

More systems a corp is over means more response from the natives (ie rats in belts, and anomalies, etc) a small corp can't/shouldn't hold lots of systems.


last: let the "calculation" for all corp soverin system be based on the highest system ratting the corp holds. if corp A holds 3 systems of rating -0.5, but one system of rating -0.1, then all 4 systems have their "rat response" based on the -0.1 system. this encourages corps to move out of "Noob" null sec when they grow.


summed up:
POS + ice fuel = more CPU and power
mining in null sec needs escort, but escort needs to have a reward for sticking around.
use member count, # of soverin systems, and system ratting to force big corps to move out of "NOOB" null sec. make room for new null sec residents.
rats in belts give more loot when the belt has active MINERS.
Rats attack escort first, THEN pop the miners AFTER the escort dies.

WT Pike
Posted - 2011.08.18 03:54:00 - [251]
 

If you are going to adjust w-space belts, please keep in mind that some high end ore is required for reactions. Zydrine, Megacyte and Nocxium are required for polymer reactions. Also, the yields from refining at a POS are terrible when compared to refining in stations which in a way has already penalized wormholers. More ships moving around and doing things is what we need, not less.

My experience is that in w-space you cant really just do only one thing. From day to day what sites are available in a particular hole or neighboring systems varies widely. To stay busy and entertained you need to do a bit of everything. It would be unfortunate if mining were taken away or nerfed to the point it was not worth doing unless of course you are planning on adding new content to replace it. If you were to replace some of the ABC ores with ice the change might be received much better than just losing a resource/activity. Whatever happens, we do need some of the high end minerals for polymers.

Perhaps a non-standard wormhole type of exploration site could be seen in a hole once each month or so, something like rogue drones or random pirate/faction npcs if only for variety. After a while sleepers all start to look the same.

One final note, incursion offered little to wormholers, walking in stations has very little appeal as many of us see a station only rarely, please dont make the next expansion make our experience worse by removing activities. I am a bit unhappy that so much emphasis is being placed on how to make 'null' better rather than on how to make the game we all play better.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:48:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: S8nt
Edited by: S8nt on 17/08/2011 23:09:19
Originally by: Messoroz
You argued absolutely nothing properly agaisnt wspace ore. Wspace gravs require the same skill, mining and ISK invested, BUT ALOT MORE. You need to pay for pos fuels, you need to spend extra hours hauling, you lose 25% of your ore to the refining array if you use one in the POS.


They are a massive source of high end OREs that wasn't there in 2008. By what you say nothing that you mine exits the WH. Almost all that you mine goes to Jita or other market hubs.

Yes there is more people playing EVE, but there is also more being consumed. What has also increased is the sources of ORE.

The big question is... what has caused prices to fall like they have and what is going to be done to balance it out to make the ISK per hour more like say mission running or ratting.


The ISK per hour needs to be substantially better the mission running or ratting I'd say. Mission running and ratting both - directly - use skills which are also useful for PvP.

Mining doesn't. Mining doesn't even have a decent cross-over with industry skills, PI or anything else. It's this one giant skill tree which is currently hopelessly broken (can fly Exhumers crew checking in).

Vanessa Vansen
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:06:00 - [253]
 

Another change should affect clone vat bays.
It really should be possible to clone jump from such a bay back to a station or another bay.
This way clones could be transported with all their implants. When a nomadic corp moves on, the members could place their clones in a clone vat bay and jump clone out, just to jump clone back to the new location after the 24h delay.

Susiqueta Muir
Disturbed Blood Astrometrics
Posted - 2011.08.18 10:06:00 - [254]
 

The main problem with trying to adjust the profitability of Mining is the complete inter-relationship between mining, ore prices, mineral prices, BP requirements, item price, demand, availability .... it goes on and on.....

If you make it easier to scoop up larger quantities of ore, prices for that ore will drop as there will be more on the market, so removing the profitability of the larger volumes sold...

Reduce the availability of the ores and this would start to increase the value of the ores, but would then disenfranchise a great deal of miners and industrialists as their income sources will be drying up and profits impacted until the market catches up. Players will be reluctant to buy manufactured goods as the prices start rising, which may lead more people to make their own items but will probably knacker the high value-low volume end of the market.

Changing BP requirements would affect industrialists one way and miners the other, miners suffering if resource requirements dropped, Manufacturers if they rose.

I used to trade in Zydrine about 2 years ago (2k per unit) when prices were much better than they are now and I remember when you'd be hard pressed to find Morphite for less than 10k. I look at the prices now and think "WTF happened?"

For prices to change in this way there are only a few main reasons I can see, demand is much lower as production requirements (be that units made or BP mineral requirements) are down (but I don't think the market data reflects this) , or supply has increased out of line with demand (most likely).

If 40% of minerals on the market come from Mining, so 60% must come from reprocessing of drops. I wonder how this statistic has changed over time, especially with the Drone region opening up. Metrics need to be reviewed for the sources of minerals from reprocessed items to determine where the surge in materials is coming from.

If mining is deemed by the playerbase to be unprofitable compared to other activities then this will form a self-perpetuating issue, where people will avoid making isk this way, turn to shooting and salvaging for minerals instead and so skew the supply of minerals further from one avenue to another.

Wealth in Eve though is all relative though, if you are only getting half the profits you used to get through mining but your costs are 50% what they were, are you just as wealthy? then again, I remember making my first Mil isk, far more than the first Bil....

TL;DR -

Where are the minerals mainly coming from? If ONLY 40% of resources are mined, 60% MUST be from loot/reprocessing and this is far more likely to be skewing the market against miners than anything else.

I'd love to get my hands on all the raw CCP market data, where the minerals come from and all that mcgubbins. Too much data analysis at work I guess.. ;)

SM.

PS:- I do fly a Hulk in a WH, I preffer to grab all the rocks as fast as I can... :)

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.18 13:19:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Psihius
Edited by: Psihius on 17/08/2011 18:19:35
One more thing - I had a quite big topic about the changes to EVE on eve-ru.com forums in Russian and there is a good section about mining. Your russian speaking dev could make use of it.

The main thought was that mining should be fast and violent, but unable to be continious for timeframes bigger than 2-5 hours (witch is the time most of us spend in eve at one session - some less, some more. And 100% not every day). Actually there is described the kind of hit & run mining operations witch leave your neighbors very unhappy that you steal their resources - as a bonus a good reason to field a rorqual (it has to be changed a little because 5 minutes of not moving is too long for hit & run)

The link is: http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=67776&st=0&p=1218401&fromsearch=1&#entry1218401
The Google Translate link is (should I say it's quite bad on translation): http://translate.google.lv/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.eve-ru.com%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D67776%26st%3D0%26p%3D1218401%26fromsearch%3D1%26%23entry1218401&act=url


Yeah, our Russian guy has just sent me a gigantic wall-of-text summarizing the Russian feedback; I'm gonna read it through later and send him back any further questions I'd like asked.

Originally by: Lazerus Bulder
Dear CCP Greyscale ugh

Statics are easy to manipulate. If you are going to throw numbers out as prove of a point, you need to clearly state how you came by the numbers. Otherwise we are all Number 1. Wink

If you count despawned grav-sites at mined, your numbers would be wrong.
We all(people runnig sites in WH-space) despawn Grav-sites.
When we enter a new WH we spawn all sites to kill the few sleepers there, because that is were we make our ISK.
So all Grav-sites are despawned, except the rare grav-site in our own home system, that we (maybe) mine for production.


Nope, this is straight-up "units of ore mined" according to the research dude that gave it to me, no funny business there.

Originally by: Messoroz
Have you included polymers in the production numbers? They require alot of ABC minerals to convert the ladar gas into polymers. We have an guy using an alt mining almost all the time when hes on for the minerals to react thousands of m3 of ladar gas daily and purely for reactions only.


Ah, that could be the missing link here. Lemme see if I can get numbers on this.

Originally by: Ob Kant

Is there any way of telling how much those % do affect the market?


Not that I know of, no. That's why I say things like "seems" - it seems likely that they're affecting prices (subject to checking above point about reactions), but there could be something really funky going on.

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Do you have a break down of where said ore is being mined? (Class 1's a big problem, or is this stuff in being mined in class 5/6)? If it's all 5's and 6's?


Nope, that's something I'm hoping to track down next week - class data weren't in the first round of stuff I got sent, and the research guys need to find the time to hook it up to the rest of the analysis.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:25:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 18/08/2011 13:27:57
CCP Greyscale, a quick question if I may... how much of that "units of ore mined", can you accurately determine, exit holes for market and how much remain in the holes for consumption? Although it's been a few weeks since we had a grav, the last couple we did have spawn we sucked dry, processed at the POS (at considerable expense, relative to empire mind you... >.< ) and kept inside for missile production for the alliance, etc.

I'd be curious to see how much from the different areas actually makes it to market, so to speak.

Still liking the idea of increasing our lower end ores, btw... Very Happy Any thoughts on adding ice to holes (especially if you remove it from high)?

Oh, quick aside, I'm currently producing... um... fulleroferrocene I think... the one that used tritanium... pulled 17K out of this batch so far, that's 170K trit burned for that lower end gas product, and no gravs spawned in weeks...

Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:30:00 - [257]
 

my improvement to mining

Shops ....

Authorised distributors of minerals which supply minerals to the builders, ice products to the POS owners.

Miner sells stuff to distributor - gets standard payment. Disti sells it on. Works in RL, why not in Eve?

TL;DR Don't change a thing, add in another level of PLAYER based interaction

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:33:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: S8nt
Mining was at it's best in around 2008. I started playing late 2006, started getting more accounts, 5 in total at that stage, and made a plan to get into 0.0. I moved to Detorid which is rather rich in minerals.

Back then Megacyte was around 4200 a unit, it is now 2700, Zydrine was around 2600 a unit it is now 724. Morphite was around 16k a unit, now 3340.

I do understand that peoples skills have improved and so can mine more efficiently. Also there has been other changes like Rorquals and Orcas. For the most part these are rather small percentage changes. So my question to the CCP devs is, what has really caused this change in high end mineral prices?

WH space, Industry upgrades?

I know my figures are rough ones, but this is a 35% price decrease in Megacyte, 72% in Zydrine and 79% for morphite.

I do understand that things change over time, but a rough 62% drop is not right. There is a lot of skill time, mining time and ISK invested into mining. Either reduce WH space high ends, they are small enough to import into WH space( And yes, I did live in WH space for a long while, we exported a lot of high ends ) or create CCP buy orders, create more mineral sinks.

Please make mining worthwhile again.

S8nt.


Originally by: S8nt
Edited by: S8nt on 17/08/2011 23:09:19
Originally by: Messoroz
You argued absolutely nothing properly agaisnt wspace ore. Wspace gravs require the same skill, mining and ISK invested, BUT ALOT MORE. You need to pay for pos fuels, you need to spend extra hours hauling, you lose 25% of your ore to the refining array if you use one in the POS.


They are a massive source of high end OREs that wasn't there in 2008. By what you say nothing that you mine exits the WH. Almost all that you mine goes to Jita or other market hubs.

Yes there is more people playing EVE, but there is also more being consumed. What has also increased is the sources of ORE.

The big question is... what has caused prices to fall like they have and what is going to be done to balance it out to make the ISK per hour more like say mission running or ratting.


When a system is upgraded to industry lvl 3 the belt spawn massive amounts of ABC's. LVL 4 spawns more than a single miner can mine with two or three hulks, without killing himself. Thus the market is injected with huge amounts of minerals. There is only one way the price can go and that is down, even if it's all the way to 0.01 isk.

It is tragic when nocxium is half the price of zydrine, which is a quarter of the price of megacyte, which is less than half of what it was before industry upgrades and WH's.

The only way to solve it is to either decrease the mineral supply again or create more sinks for this huge excess. If we went back to belt mining prices would shoot up again, as long as WH's were also nerfed.

Remember everyone, nefing WH's won't entirely solve the problem, so, don't run around screaming nerf WH's as if that will be the end of the super low mineral price. WH's added to the problem but they're not the sole cause. Clinging to them as the last fig leaf will not solve a thing and we will be here again the next time 0.0 improvements are proposed.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:51:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper

Remember everyone, nefing WH's won't entirely solve the problem, so, don't run around screaming nerf WH's as if that will be the end of the super low mineral price. WH's added to the problem but they're not the sole cause. Clinging to them as the last fig leaf will not solve a thing and we will be here again the next time 0.0 improvements are proposed.


Bah, nerfing wormholes won't affect the problem at all. It's a minority source of minerals from mining, and mining is a minority source of minerals from drone guts and reprocessing. If Grey rebalances wormhole gravs to be more in line with what's actually needed in holes all you'll see are happy wormhole residents and no change in the mineral market prices. The problem lies well outside wormholes and more outside mining than within it. But, nerfing or removing industrial upgrades would help... reducing what drone guts process into would help... actual problems taken care of.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:33:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Bah, nerfing wormholes won't affect the problem at all. It's a minority source of minerals from mining, and mining is a minority source of minerals from drone guts and reprocessing. If Grey rebalances wormhole gravs to be more in line with what's actually needed in holes all you'll see are happy wormhole residents and no change in the mineral market prices. The problem lies well outside wormholes and more outside mining than within it. But, nerfing or removing industrial upgrades would help... reducing what drone guts process into would help... actual problems taken care of.


Drone regions have already been nerfed at least once already. The problem lies in the fact that those rats don't give rewards but alloys, resulting in a hit to the mineral market. Nerfing them more won't help the botting, nor will it help the income of the drone regions in general. Also loot tables need to change again, with less loot coming from rat loot than player produced goods.

The removal of Meta 0 items hasn't helped mineral prices at all, which it was meant to do. What needs to happen is loot needs to be nerfed even more. Together with changes to the drone regions mineral prices will, hopefully, go up again. However, without trying and actually implementing these changes we won't know. If nothing changes we have a deeper, more profound problem, which is industry upgrades. I am certain we will see a spike in mineral prices, especially as the majority of mined minerals don't come from miners but from loot (including drones).

Changes need to be made to low ends, as several times suggested in the thread. It's ridiculous that the largest rocks of Veldspar only yield 150k units, whereas it's possible to upgrade a system to lvl 5 and have a rock that's nothing compared to veld rocks yield over 100k ABC's. An increase in the yield of low ends has been suggested numerous times, to no avail. But it's something that needs to happen.

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:38:00 - [261]
 

On the subject of moving ice to null sec this has to be the worst idea CCP has ever come up with.

What CCP are doing is giving full control over Ice to the null sec alliances.

By moving Ice we all know that the price will raise to stupid levels because the null sec alliances will be able to charge what ever they wont.

Also the amount of available Ice will drop off dramatically since mining is for carebears and not for the the l33t PvP'ers which most people in null consider themselves to be.

Without Ice most of the Highsec indy corps who have pos's for research and invention will unable to continue which will the raise the cost of most T2 items.

Basically what CCP are doing here is giving the null sec alliance, i.e all the CSM members the power to control ice prices and in turn costs of T2 mods..

Cheers CCP for doing the bidding of the CSM.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:38:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper

Changes need to be made to low ends, as several times suggested in the thread. It's ridiculous that the largest rocks of Veldspar only yield 150k units, whereas it's possible to upgrade a system to lvl 5 and have a rock that's nothing compared to veld rocks yield over 100k ABC's. An increase in the yield of low ends has been suggested numerous times, to no avail. But it's something that needs to happen.


You're talking about nerfing null sec I take it? You can't upgrade wormholes, and when you say "low ends" is sounds like low end holes.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:50:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Super Whopper

Changes need to be made to low ends, as several times suggested in the thread. It's ridiculous that the largest rocks of Veldspar only yield 150k units, whereas it's possible to upgrade a system to lvl 5 and have a rock that's nothing compared to veld rocks yield over 100k ABC's. An increase in the yield of low ends has been suggested numerous times, to no avail. But it's something that needs to happen.


You're talking about nerfing null sec I take it? You can't upgrade wormholes, and when you say "low ends" is sounds like low end holes.


Low ends = low end minerals. E.g. trit, pye, mex, up to zydrine.

I am talking about nerfind drone regions, not the entirety of 0.0. Drone regions spawn rats that drop minerals, belts that have minerals and then industry upgrades that yield minerals.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:59:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Super Whopper

Changes need to be made to low ends, as several times suggested in the thread. It's ridiculous that the largest rocks of Veldspar only yield 150k units, whereas it's possible to upgrade a system to lvl 5 and have a rock that's nothing compared to veld rocks yield over 100k ABC's. An increase in the yield of low ends has been suggested numerous times, to no avail. But it's something that needs to happen.


You're talking about nerfing null sec I take it? You can't upgrade wormholes, and when you say "low ends" is sounds like low end holes.


Low ends = low end minerals. E.g. trit, pye, mex, up to zydrine.

I am talking about nerfind drone regions, not the entirety of 0.0. Drone regions spawn rats that drop minerals, belts that have minerals and then industry upgrades that yield minerals.


Wouldn't the simple answer be "nerf the mineral drops, balance by adding bounties"?

Kno Bodeesbitch
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:45:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Ok, so here's the thing about wormhole space: it doesn't need mining as a reward type. All the other stuff you can get out of sleeper sites is more than enough to make w-space viable as an area of the game, with the sorts of activities we were hoping to cater for with it. Further, having miners sitting around in sites (and/or warping off starbases) doesn't really add a whole lot to the overall dynamic. The only thing it's really achieving is giving people a pretty safe place to mine high-ends and make a lot of money.

Nullsec on the other hand benefits a lot from having mining ops around - they add a lot to the overall ecosystem. As it stands though it seems to be the case that minerals from wormholes are depressing the prices of high-ends and making it not really that profitable to mine them in nullsec. Given this, finding ways to stop people mining high-ends in wormholes to sell on the market is a good thing for us.


That said, wormholes do need smallish amounts of high-ends for on-site construction. This is something we'd prefer to maintain, as we like a bit of self-sufficiency. The problem is supplying them in a way such that organized groups can still get enough to build, without allowing people to sit in C2s all day mining ABCs. One of the things we're looking at in this regard is ensuring there are high-end rocks inside combat sites, so that if you want your high-ends for construction you can have the barges roll in along with the looters and salvagers once sites are cleared, but you need to be continually clearing combat sites to keep your miners busy.


Ok Greyscale, now you know I love you like a brother from another mother but...for real?

WH space has become a bastion for those of us who relish small scale PvP, a place to call home without paying some alliance head's mortgage via moon mining and generally living and dying by the strength of our corp. Wormholes imho are what Eve was meant to become but didn't.

Don't nerf them...love them. Use their sucess as an example of what you did right and build on it for low and null sec.

As far as too many mins coming out of wh's (been in many, live in two never seen it)show me one class 1 or 2 that is filled with miners and I will show you REGIONS filled with min dropping drones farmed into supers by the enterprising residents(and maybe some bots but who knows).

Don't nerf something to get everyone to Null-sec. Come up with an idea to make 0.0 more palatable to those of us willing to pvp but can't be arsed to deal with some alliance leader's head trip or the (too easy imo) ability for a rogue director to undo an alliance with a touch of a button.

Shadow Wind
Gallente
Crimson Empire.
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:04:00 - [266]
 

How about we just add the the map a way to show statistics on amount of m3 mined so the really bright glowing dots on the eve map will allow solo roamers to fly to these heavily mined systems in hopes of getting a kill? There are techniques, after all, to kill botter miners. This will also make it more important to spread your mining industry which in itself will increase the value of ore through logistics work load increase.
It would be a good step atleast.

Shivaitee
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:03:00 - [267]
 

I personally have 3 accounts, 1 hauler, 2 hulk miners... we all know, a miner (Hulk, Covetor, Retriever)does not have a way to defend itself, pirates are always at the other side of the jump gate waiting for someone defenseless to appear and just shut them out. I personally joined this game to relax, I'm not a teen whom can have all time to spend on this game. They have not consider older folks yet... I dedicate mostly to mining, found it profitable and even though found it a bit boring it still would allow me to use the game to get off from real-world matters for some period of time when I come home to rest a bit.

They just do this to satisfy the "teen" desire of killing defenseless people in low or nullsec... My word is just one to CCP. Forget about me as a client... more than players, from the moment I (as person) have to take money out of my wallet in order to play, I become a customer who is paying. They do something I'm not in favor with, simple... They loose money.

S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 22:31:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: S8nt on 18/08/2011 22:33:52
Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: S8nt
Mining was at it's best in around 2008. I started playing late 2006, started getting more accounts, 5 in total at that stage, and made a plan to get into 0.0. I moved to Detorid which is rather rich in minerals.

Back then Megacyte was around 4200 a unit, it is now 2700, Zydrine was around 2600 a unit it is now 724. Morphite was around 16k a unit, now 3340.

I do understand that peoples skills have improved and so can mine more efficiently. Also there has been other changes like Rorquals and Orcas. For the most part these are rather small percentage changes. So my question to the CCP devs is, what has really caused this change in high end mineral prices?

WH space, Industry upgrades?

I know my figures are rough ones, but this is a 35% price decrease in Megacyte, 72% in Zydrine and 79% for morphite.

I do understand that things change over time, but a rough 62% drop is not right. There is a lot of skill time, mining time and ISK invested into mining. Either reduce WH space high ends, they are small enough to import into WH space( And yes, I did live in WH space for a long while, we exported a lot of high ends ) or create CCP buy orders, create more mineral sinks.

Please make mining worthwhile again.

S8nt.


Originally by: S8nt
Edited by: S8nt on 17/08/2011 23:09:19
Originally by: Messoroz
You argued absolutely nothing properly agaisnt wspace ore. Wspace gravs require the same skill, mining and ISK invested, BUT ALOT MORE. You need to pay for pos fuels, you need to spend extra hours hauling, you lose 25% of your ore to the refining array if you use one in the POS.


They are a massive source of high end OREs that wasn't there in 2008. By what you say nothing that you mine exits the WH. Almost all that you mine goes to Jita or other market hubs.

Yes there is more people playing EVE, but there is also more being consumed. What has also increased is the sources of ORE.

The big question is... what has caused prices to fall like they have and what is going to be done to balance it out to make the ISK per hour more like say mission running or ratting.


When a system is upgraded to industry lvl 3 the belt spawn massive amounts of ABC's. LVL 4 spawns more than a single miner can mine with two or three hulks, without killing himself. Thus the market is injected with huge amounts of minerals. There is only one way the price can go and that is down, even if it's all the way to 0.01 isk.

It is tragic when nocxium is half the price of zydrine, which is a quarter of the price of megacyte, which is less than half of what it was before industry upgrades and WH's.

The only way to solve it is to either decrease the mineral supply again or create more sinks for this huge excess. If we went back to belt mining prices would shoot up again, as long as WH's were also nerfed.

Remember everyone, nefing WH's won't entirely solve the problem, so, don't run around screaming nerf WH's as if that will be the end of the super low mineral price. WH's added to the problem but they're not the sole cause. Clinging to them as the last fig leaf will not solve a thing and we will be here again the next time 0.0 improvements are proposed.


- nerf highends in WH space.
- change the drone drops to bounties. It is currently a very unrealistic way of making ISK. You mine for minerals, not kill things for minerals.
- remove the grav sites that industry upgrades produce in 0.0 and make it adjust the mineral types and amounts in the belts. This will also make the pvp people very happy.
- re-introduce NPC buy orders so that mineral prices can always be balanced.

This way mineral prices will return back to the awesome levels they used to me and we can actually feel like we are achieving something again when mining.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:06:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: S8nt

- nerf highends in WH space.
- change the drone drops to bounties. It is currently a very unrealistic way of making ISK. You mine for minerals, not kill things for minerals.
- remove the grav sites that industry upgrades produce in 0.0 and make it adjust the mineral types and amounts in the belts. This will also make the pvp people very happy.
- re-introduce NPC buy orders so that mineral prices can always be balanced.



You know, many people aren't actually agaisn't just nerfing the highends in wspace, removing yes, that is bad, but nerfing isn't, we still need the minerals for reactions unless CCP is willing to change the reaction blueprints.

S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:37:00 - [270]
 

Edited by: S8nt on 18/08/2011 23:38:36
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Originally by: S8nt

- nerf highends in WH space.
- change the drone drops to bounties. It is currently a very unrealistic way of making ISK. You mine for minerals, not kill things for minerals.
- remove the grav sites that industry upgrades produce in 0.0 and make it adjust the mineral types and amounts in the belts. This will also make the pvp people very happy.
- re-introduce NPC buy orders so that mineral prices can always be balanced.



You know, many people aren't actually agaisn't just nerfing the highends in wspace, removing yes, that is bad, but nerfing isn't, we still need the minerals for reactions unless CCP is willing to change the reaction blueprints.


Just like I have to take 3.7 billion trit from Jita to 0.0 to build a Titan. I don't complain about that. But to jump a WH for a resource that is so small is a issue for people? So saying you need to have it all within one contained system so you never have to interact with the rest of EVE is not what the game is about. There is a place and source for each item in EVE. Yes, some resources in a area is ok, but not to the point where it becomes your main source of income.

What I am trying to say is... the primary focus for ratting is for the bounties, fighting is for kills, mining is for minerals. WH is for T3 materials. There can be a overlapping of reasources everywhere but each area needs it's main focus. If I want to get T3 materials I need to go to wormholes. If you want OREs and minerals you got to where it's at it's strongest. Say 0.0 or low sec.

Things just need to be split out tbh. Give each area in EVE it's own defined purpose, much like the roles of ships.


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