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Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:55:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 17/08/2011 16:01:04
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Greyscale - this sounds right. I would (and I hate to say this because I made some money on moving the above ores to empire back when they were worth 5400 for Megacyte and 2400 for Zydrine) SCALE back the amount of roids in the above some for W-Holes. Don't take the dooms' day Mittens Bull *** aproach and nerf it completely - just scale it back. BUT THEN AGAIN - MAYBE PRICES HAVE REALLY DROPPED DUE TO BOTTERS???? Also ---- given your numbers, still the majority of ABC is in NULL SEC.
How, given the HUGE RISK in WH's and logistics nightmare, is nerfing them FULLY an option? If you do nerf the ABC drops in WH's make it a TINY bit - not a ton - a TINY BIT.

In all honesty too it only has to be for C1,C2 and some C3's that DIRECTLY link to Hi-sec. I know from experience. Granted WH residents (and I have BEEN ONE since they rolled out) will say that logistics is hard - and it is. I stopped mining and hauling because you have to use an ORCA and then move it and refine it, and it takes forever, but some people do still do it. But it can still be scaled back.

WITH THAT SAID - KEEP C4's, C5's and C6's full of ore so THEIR RESIDENTS can build cap ships that run sleeper sites. Again - the SCALED reward thing. Those WH's ONLY exit to other WH's and 0.0.

IF YOU DO ALL THAT I SAID - then the only way for C1-C3' resident's to mine enough to crash ABC market would be to go into an adjoining C4,C5, or C6 and mine and come back to theirs and then to Hi-sec. Which I can tell you will be so time prohibitive it probably will not happen. Mass limits on the wormholes too will make it prohibitive because again - you can only take an ORCA in and out once or you are TRAPPED. And for WH residents that is a fate EQUAL to death and pointless.

Hadriel3
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:59:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


You make a lot of invalid assumptions in this post, I'll break it down:

1: WH residents don't mine veldspar. Ever. All the tritanium we could ever need comes from the reinforced metal scraps that comes from sleeper salvage (in ridiculous quantities). Pretty sure this invalidates all your numbers about production in WH space...

2: You are measuring experience by assuming that the more seasoned players fly hulks. The opposite is actually true, veterans of WH space know that eventually your mining ship WILL die. It makes much more sense to be in a 20mil ship than a 200mil ship when the inevitable gank finally happens.

I find it encouraging that you're finally realizing that WH space is as dangerous or more so than nullsec. And I hope you keep bringing us your data so we can provide some context...

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:04:00 - [213]
 

OH and one more thing - hardly anyone fly's hulks in WH's because they are smart enough NOT TO. It is barely a TAD safer than when HULKAGEDDON is going on. People fly ships they can lose in WH's since there is no local and no way to buff your safety except for a pos, bubble or numbers.

Again, I say remove Local in NULL as well to increase fun but make it available for SOV holders who can anchor multiple "Local transponder" type structures in their space that show WHO EXACTLY is in there system. This fixes AFK cloaker advantage of distrupting industry in 0.0. This forces the AFK cloaker to decloak, launch probes and WORK a tad for a target instead of just warping to a site.

Learath
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:56:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.

So, 24%ish of ABC is mined in WH, discount for terrible refining, tough logistics, higher risk and the lack of higher quality ores, minus ore lost before reprocess, are we really talking about a problem here? Also, every vet WHer I've met recommends cov over hulk, for the reason everyone in this thread who has been in a WH has mentioned. I don't really think the risk ever goes down.

Also, 60% of all covetor losses? That's a lot of ships.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:58:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Learath
So, 24%ish of ABC is mined in WH, discount for terrible refining, tough logistics, higher risk and the lack of higher quality ores, minus ore lost before reprocess, are we really talking about a problem here? Also, every vet WHer I've met recommends cov over hulk, for the reason everyone in this thread who has been in a WH has mentioned. I don't really think the risk ever goes down.

Also, 60% of all covetor losses? That's a lot of ships.


Especially when you consider it's what... 3% of the entire population of Eve in wormholes?

"Safe" isn't the word I'd choose.

Deld Niman
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:01:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space


Just out of interest did you factor in the population density of null and wh into that? From memory there are about 4x more residents in null according to the last QEN.

Also do you have data on the actual amount of each type of ship fielded in null and wh compared to the amount getting destroyed?

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:09:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Mindnut
Edited by: Mindnut on 17/08/2011 14:21:22
Hi all,
I read through this thread and I'm surprised how this turned into a debate whether to nerf high sec or not and why...

I think that there are means to change very little but with high efficiency. I wouldn't start by nerfing anything here but by eliminating the main reason the prices are dropping - bots. With a simple change in the mining mechanism CCP could eliminate them or at least make botting unprofitable. I suggested something simmilar a while back and so have other players on this forum...

1. Make the belts a lot bigger (more like ice field)

2. Make 80% of the asteroids useless to a miner – “dummy roids” – empty. The other 20% contain ore.

3. Empty roids do not disappear but become empty of ore - “dummy roids”. Instead of spawning roids on downtime have them filled again with ore but randomly so that miners will not be able to use the same bookmark again. They would have to fly around this gigantic belt again to find deposits in other places using survey scanner.

4. Change the survey list window so that it can't sort by ammount of ore in the roids
This is how the survey result would look like:

Veldspar 5687km 0 units
Scordite 1234km 200 units
Veldspar 5687km 0 units
Plagioclase 1287km 1 units
Veldspar 2434km 0 units
Veldspar 5097km 0 units
Plagioclase 5213km 12 units
Veldspar 5123km 92345 units
Veldspar 5457km 0 units

5. When the roid is depleted and becomes a "dummy roid" the laser doesn't deactivate.

This way if a bot warps to a field and locks 3 first roids on the overview list there is a very low chance that these roids will contain any ore. Same if survey scanner list is used.

To make mining a little safer, more fun and profitable in 0.0 I'd like to suggest the following changes.

1. Give mining ships, orca/rorqual a bonus so that they can shield tank bs rats in 0.0
That way we won't have to keep switching to bs's to kill rats when we're mining solo. Right now if I'm using 3 accounts to mine in highsec I can fly 2 hulks and an orca but if I do that in 0.0 I have to use a tanking ship on one account or stop mining to switch to a bs. This makes 0.0 mining less profitable when it comes to mining low-end ore.

2. Make the drone bay bigger and allow these ships to use bigger drones so that they can kill rats in belts. Not so fast as combat ships though. This way mining will be a little more fun and profitable.

The next bit is something I suggested in the "HOME" thread
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1565838=2#33
If you introduce "CAPITAL SYSTEMS" and "Internal System Security" that add bonuses to ship statistics mining ships will aso get a bonus to yield.

As for the ice fields...
1. Remove all ice fields from the game
2. Add some ice roids into every asteroid field but make them deplete like everything else making the amouts available limited.

I don't think that nerfing high sec is going to do us all any good. I'd apply these small changes and see how it all works out before I go and flip everything around and make people angry by spoiling their game.

Fly safe,
Mind


Bots can use a survey scanner and read the results from the screen.

Remember: A bot can drive a rover on Mars. A bot is world chess champion. A bot is world Jeopardy champion. Google has bots driving cars in traffic. Internet poker, a PvP activity, has bots.

Eliminating the bots is not easy because the bots are getting very, very good.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.17 17:13:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 17/08/2011 15:02:57
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 17/08/2011 15:01:50
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


I'd be happy to exchange 50% of the ABC in wormholes for more lower end rocks... we need more trit and the like in wormholes. Also, for manufacturing... there's little T1 production that I've seen... except for ammo. More T2 ammo and T3 products. Now, if you take the ABCM out of T3 then there's no need for the ABC and it's unlikely to be missed. I think it's safe to say, regarding mining, we need what we need, beyond that wormhole mining is a time-filler. If we don't need ABC anymore then fine, send it off to less-dangerous bot-controlled spaces for all I care. But if you make our production dependant on the bots of null then you're doing it wrong.

Hmm... take away the need for ABC in T3 production at all, take most or all the ABC ores and in exchange can we have ice and more lower end rocks? Our POS's burn ice products just like everyone elses... interesting would be that it could be hit-or-miss on getting the isotopes we need... and with the volume a chunk of ice has, you can bet your arse that you won't see these non-existant day-trippers pop into being to get at it either.

Wait a minute... there are no improves ores in wormholes. Who's leg you trying to pull anyhow?!


Yeah, one of the potential options I'm considering right now (another is "do nothing") is to just change the makeup of WH grav sites so that they give you all the mineral types in approximately the right ratios. If you're building it means you can strip a site and have everything you need, while if you're just mining to export it's going to significantly slow the overall rate of mining due to people (presumably, based on previous player behavior and feedback) not clearing the low-ends, so the sites won't despawn quickly.

(The improved ores are mentioned because I'm explicitly including improved ores mined in nullsec in the overall calculation.)

Learath
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:16:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 17/08/2011 15:02:57
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 17/08/2011 15:01:50
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


I'd be happy to exchange 50% of the ABC in wormholes for more lower end rocks... we need more trit and the like in wormholes. Also, for manufacturing... there's little T1 production that I've seen... except for ammo. More T2 ammo and T3 products. Now, if you take the ABCM out of T3 then there's no need for the ABC and it's unlikely to be missed. I think it's safe to say, regarding mining, we need what we need, beyond that wormhole mining is a time-filler. If we don't need ABC anymore then fine, send it off to less-dangerous bot-controlled spaces for all I care. But if you make our production dependant on the bots of null then you're doing it wrong.

Hmm... take away the need for ABC in T3 production at all, take most or all the ABC ores and in exchange can we have ice and more lower end rocks? Our POS's burn ice products just like everyone elses... interesting would be that it could be hit-or-miss on getting the isotopes we need... and with the volume a chunk of ice has, you can bet your arse that you won't see these non-existant day-trippers pop into being to get at it either.

Wait a minute... there are no improves ores in wormholes. Who's leg you trying to pull anyhow?!


Yeah, one of the potential options I'm considering right now (another is "do nothing") is to just change the makeup of WH grav sites so that they give you all the mineral types in approximately the right ratios. If you're building it means you can strip a site and have everything you need, while if you're just mining to export it's going to significantly slow the overall rate of mining due to people (presumably, based on previous player behavior and feedback) not clearing the low-ends, so the sites won't despawn quickly.

(The improved ores are mentioned because I'm explicitly including improved ores mined in nullsec in the overall calculation.)

A moderate reduction in the high ends and a massive bump to the low ends in WH would be a godsend.
It would also dispel the idea that CCP thinks WHers should DIAF (no repackaging in WH, no reconfiguring T3s which are from WH in WH etc etc etc).

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.17 17:24:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Before you bask in the numbers reflecting safety... keep in mind that that 60% of covetor kills and 26% of hulk kills are happening in space with maybe 3% of the population of Eve. Think kills per unit population and you have a whole different tale to tell. Also, hulks are killed less because experienced wormholers don't fly hulks in wormholes much... the cost/benefit between a hulk and covetor greatly skews the ideal mining vessel to covetors. For one tenth or so the cost we get a small drop-off in mining... hulks aren't worth the risk in wormholes.

Data only makes sense in context.


Yeah ok, that seems reasonable. Going by the "what ship type are players in at time of snapshot metric, there are actually ~50% more hulks than covetors being used, and the absolute "ships killed" metric is almost identical for both.

Originally by: Lord Wulfengheist
PS: I don't even know what to say about your production data. Tell my exactly what is produced and what it costs and what had to be left over, not just an assumed relationship, and I might listen.


If it like two or three times more then it'd be a pretty weak conclusion and I'd be inclined to either write it off or do a lot of further digging. When the results are two orders of magnitude greater than what a simple, reasonable model would predict, it's unlikely to be because the model needs fine-tuning.

Originally by: Hadriel3
1: WH residents don't mine veldspar. Ever. All the tritanium we could ever need comes from the reinforced metal scraps that comes from sleeper salvage (in ridiculous quantities). Pretty sure this invalidates all your numbers about production in WH space...


See, this is another of those tricky things, because you're saying this to me from your personal experience, but the data I have flatly contradict you, because they're telling me there's a distinctly non-trivial amount of veld being mined there.

Originally by: Deld Niman
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space


Just out of interest did you factor in the population density of null and wh into that? From memory there are about 4x more residents in null according to the last QEN.

Also do you have data on the actual amount of each type of ship fielded in null and wh compared to the amount getting destroyed?


Population density isn't directly interesting to me here, because in safety terms the important question is "how many ships die for every unit of ore?". If we know that w-space is producing ~25% of the total high-ends, and has ~25% of the hulk deaths in space containing high-ends, then it seems reasonable to assume that the deaths-per-unit numbers are equivalent for both areas.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:28:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


OK, good numbers. Now how much megacyte comes from mining, and how much from reprocessed drone and module drops? Last I heard about half came from drops. So overall W-space (WS) accounts for 12% of the Mega supply. Is that really that big? If you really think its distorting the economy, then maybe just reduce it, but please do not eliminate it.

To others: We mine veldspar in WS. Why? Because we need the trit to build carriers. Why not reprocess metal scraps? Because you cannot do that in WS, so you got to haul it out and the trit back in. But when we haul stuff in its going to be fuel, not something we can make on site.

And we mine with Hulks, because we have learned how not to die. If that means I got brass balls, then all I can say is clank clank clank.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:32:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 17/08/2011 17:40:08
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Before you bask in the numbers reflecting safety... keep in mind that that 60% of covetor kills and 26% of hulk kills are happening in space with maybe 3% of the population of Eve. Think kills per unit population and you have a whole different tale to tell. Also, hulks are killed less because experienced wormholers don't fly hulks in wormholes much... the cost/benefit between a hulk and covetor greatly skews the ideal mining vessel to covetors. For one tenth or so the cost we get a small drop-off in mining... hulks aren't worth the risk in wormholes.

Data only make sense in context.


Most important post here.

After accounting for populations, the data demonstrate that WH space is so dangerous that people not only choose to fly Covetors instead of Hulks, but that WH miners account for almost two-thirds of the Covetor losses, and a quarter of the Hulks, in the entire game, despite WHs having only 21% of the population of 0.0!

Those are insane figures! Some very quick maths using QEN population figures (2.45% WH, suggests that they indicate that, for Covetors, WH space is seven times more dangerous than null! Pure insanity!

EDIT: if you use the metric of deaths-per-unit of ore instead, you get similar data. If WH space produces 25% of high-ends and has 60% of the Covetor deaths (the Hulk data is not reliable, in fact the shift to Covetors dying instead of Hulks is proof of very high danger), then it's quite simple to calculate that mining in WH space is about 4.5 times as dangerous as in null.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre: c'est de la folie...

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:36:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Yeah, one of the potential options I'm considering right now (another is "do nothing") is to just change the makeup of WH grav sites so that they give you all the mineral types in approximately the right ratios. If you're building it means you can strip a site and have everything you need, while if you're just mining to export it's going to significantly slow the overall rate of mining due to people (presumably, based on previous player behavior and feedback) not clearing the low-ends, so the sites won't despawn quickly.

(The improved ores are mentioned because I'm explicitly including improved ores mined in nullsec in the overall calculation.)


OK... this clams the nerves quite a bit. Reduce ABC a bit, boost the lower end, I could regain the warm and fuzzy feeling. Throw some ice into the mix (provided you do reduce or remove it from high sec) and maybe consider small niblets of mercoxit in lower holes (we use that too) and yo ucan have numbers that definitely aren't worth this mythical "day-tripping" thing while making hole residents feel like we're not the proverbial red-headed step-children of Eve.

Some of those higher density ores... that would be tasty... how about a new ore as well, Anoikite, found only in wormholes that contains smaller yet more spread out amounts of the higher end minerals? You could give ore crunchers a bonus at processing it while in wormhole space...

Ah man, you've awakened the dreamer in me...!

Circumstantial Evidence
Posted - 2011.08.17 17:41:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Yeah, one of the potential options I'm considering right now (another is "do nothing") is to just change the makeup of WH grav sites so that they give you all the mineral types in approximately the right ratios.

THIS plus a few high-ends in combat anoms, please. If people really want that extra isk, they would have to keep the combat site open and mine it right away.

A year ago my small corp spent 6 months in a C4, 2 months of which was spent in getting organized and mining to build a carrier. We had the high ends quickly, but Lack of low end ores was incredibly frustrating. Our players had no problem adjusting to the low-end mins corp confiscation rule. We were forced to ship a ton of low-end mins in, to finish the carrier.

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:13:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Psihius on 17/08/2011 18:19:35
One more thing - I had a quite big topic about the changes to EVE on eve-ru.com forums in Russian and there is a good section about mining. Your russian speaking dev could make use of it.

The main thought was that mining should be fast and violent, but unable to be continious for timeframes bigger than 2-5 hours (witch is the time most of us spend in eve at one session - some less, some more. And 100% not every day). Actually there is described the kind of hit & run mining operations witch leave your neighbors very unhappy that you steal their resources - as a bonus a good reason to field a rorqual (it has to be changed a little because 5 minutes of not moving is too long for hit & run)

The link is: http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=67776&st=0&p=1218401&fromsearch=1&#entry1218401
The Google Translate link is (should I say it's quite bad on translation): http://translate.google.lv/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.eve-ru.com%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D67776%26st%3D0%26p%3D1218401%26fromsearch%3D1%26%23entry1218401&act=url

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:25:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec.

Excuse me? Have you read the responses in this thread at all? People have already stated rather plainly that they mine in covetors in wh-space because the risk of getting popped by rats or a cloaky pirate make it not worth the 200mil it costs for a Hulk.
A Covetor will run 3 strip miners, just like a Hulk. Yes, it doesn't have the same ore intake as a Hulk, but the difference between the two is not so much that it's worth risking 180million isk more to take a Hulk into a wormhole.

Additionally, a couple people have commented that they don't mine grav sites, but despawn them for their corp's advantage. I would like to know if your numbers take that into consideration.
If a given percentage of wh-corps despawn grav sites, and you include those despawns as "mined", then the numbers are going to be skewed.

Maybe it's not a huge portion of the gravs that get despawned, but it's been mentioned a couple times in the thread and is something to take into consideration.

Originally by: mindnut

1. Make the belts a lot bigger (more like ice field)

2. Make 80% of the asteroids useless to a miner – “dummy roids” – empty. The other 20% contain ore.

3. Empty roids do not disappear but become empty of ore - “dummy roids”. Instead of spawning roids on downtime have them filled again with ore but randomly so that miners will not be able to use the same bookmark again. They would have to fly around this gigantic belt again to find deposits in other places using survey scanner.

4. Change the survey list window so that it can't sort by ammount of ore in the roids
This is how the survey result would look like:

Veldspar 5687km 0 units
Scordite 1234km 200 units
Veldspar 5687km 0 units
Plagioclase 1287km 1 units
Veldspar 2434km 0 units
Veldspar 5097km 0 units
Plagioclase 5213km 12 units
Veldspar 5123km 92345 units
Veldspar 5457km 0 units

5. When the roid is depleted and becomes a "dummy roid" the laser doesn't deactivate.

Beautiful ideas. There are even some current in-game items that could be re-used to fill some of those purposes. The dummy ores that you have to mine on the current mining missions, and so on, could fill the dummy 'roid role.
However full implementation of these points that Mindnut has listed would go a long way to solving bot issues, or at the very least make it a bit less profitable to bot.
I like the idea that some have sugessted. Changing asteroids to all have the same look. The different textures are cute, but having the rocks looking the same would be one more tiny performance improvement as it's a few less textures to deal with on the graphics side.

Originally by: Mindnut

As for the ice fields...
1. Remove all ice fields from the game
2. Add some ice roids into every asteroid field but make them deplete like everything else making the amouts available limited.



Not sure that I agree with it, but it's a step in the right direction. Maybe leave the cycle times and such where they are currently, but make the ice 'roids have a smaller overall yield. Drop the yields to a few hundred, not 50k or more.

A lot of suggestions might go a bit further if they don't involve a whole lot of coding/testing.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:24:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Very interesting.
We can have all the other mining/mineral production statistics?
And if possible the refining results. WH inhabitants will only refine at POS. null sec can refine at stations.
What is the percentage of minerals refined in nullsec stations and what is the percentage refined in nullsec POSes?

Vanessa Vansen
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:49:00 - [228]
 

One thing, that would help mining in another way ...

Remove the restriction an the ship main bay of the Rorqual.

Why? Easy, although it's an industrial ship, miners do have a need to defend themselves against rats and PVPers.
So let them bring along the ships they need in addition to their mining barges and exhumers.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:49:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: catinboots
Edited by: catinboots on 17/08/2011 11:25:42
Edited by: catinboots on 17/08/2011 11:23:04
Originally by: Marv Caldarion
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


WHAT you need to do is buff 0.0 ice, Example
Blue ice yields 300 isotopes
Thick blue ice yields 350 isotopes.

If 0.0 is higher risk, there isn't a higher reward out there for ice. 0.0 Ice should yield at least a 50% better payout especially with the poor refineries out there.
Ex.
Thick blue ice should yield 450 isotopes for 0.0 mining rather than 350.

Better yet here is an idea for ice.

Highsec - base line - 300 isotopes per unit
low sec - 25% better - 375 isotopes per unit
0.0 - 50% better - 450 isotopes per unit.

This makes a better benefit for 0.0 miners and low sec miners, and leaves high sec unchanged so people wont complain**.

** Note on complaining. People will still complain anyway.


That's the best idea in this whole thread!! This idea is really great and i hope, that CCP will put this into game.

MARV

Great thinking, nowcombine this with a small buff to null sec manufacturing ,and research slots to make them as good as high and low sec slots and you got a good start in boosting nullsec industry
Ccp might even consider introducing superveld for nullsec or a t2 ore compression system to make it complete
Keeps everybody happy
Maybe also introduce t3 industrial subsystems (5% yield per lvl and 5% time for icemining per lvl, 3 highslots1 auxillery high slot 10 % cargospace per lvl) that fits on the current t3 ships and that replaces the offensive subsystem so the mining ship can tank those nullsec rats, true a hulk can do it aswell but you sacrificing so much yield it is not fun anymore especially if you are your own

Nullsec delenda est



Ok so lets work with this here and the above comments with botting.

First maybe lets adjust the ice refine amounts to make sure prices say relatively the same but do not drop like mega and zydrine.

PROPOSAL - ISOTOPE REFINES

High sec - 250 isotopes / refine
Low sec - 350 isotopes / refine
0.0 - 450 isotopes / refine


Mining and minerals

WH space - Ok dont kill off ABC from wh's 25% of all abc from wh's is not that much but it is significant.

Proposal - reduce the roid sizes that spawn in those bets or the amount of roids or dont make all 3 spawn in the same belt.

there are what 9 types of wh space belts. Well why not adjust them so instead of ABC spawning in 1 belt, it is only 1 of the 3. WH space keeps their abc ore there, and the amount coming in from wh space drops.

Example -

token site spawns arkonor
uncommon spawns bistot
bountiful spawns crokite
vital spawns all 3.

removing it totally is a bad idea but regulating it by changing the spawns would be a better solution.

Vanessa Vansen
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:02:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Originally by: Deld Niman
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space


Just out of interest did you factor in the population density of null and wh into that? From memory there are about 4x more residents in null according to the last QEN.

Also do you have data on the actual amount of each type of ship fielded in null and wh compared to the amount getting destroyed?


Population density isn't directly interesting to me here, because in safety terms the important question is "how many ships die for every unit of ore?". If we know that w-space is producing ~25% of the total high-ends, and has ~25% of the hulk deaths in space containing high-ends, then it seems reasonable to assume that the deaths-per-unit numbers are equivalent for both areas.


Yep, if you consider hulks only. For the covetors it's not the same. There the percentage says that WH systems are more dangerous. Hence, there should be a good reward for mining there.

No, I'm not living in a wormhole, I just like maths Very Happy

Akihoshi
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:11:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Akihoshi on 17/08/2011 21:20:06
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


you make the assumption that people would be selling all the Mega on the market. Have you considered and taken into account stockpiling for local production? You make a big leap saying people would be putting it on the market.It's an indisputable fact that any miner when presented with a choice will first go for the the ABC's as they provide a better reward/risk ratio and better isk/hour ratio than other ores.Many of those miners could be stockpiling the minerals/ore instead of immediately putting them on the market.

Also if you look at the total percentage of ore's mined wormholes are only a 1/4 of total mined amount. Anyone who see's those numbers will know immediately they are having an impact but not as near an impact as where the other 73% Arkonor 79% Bistot and 75% Crockite are mined.It comes down to Simple math here nearly 3/4 more ABC's are mined elsewhere which means that Elsewhere is going to have 3/4 more an impact or greater on the total market price.

CCP Used to have a full time economist on staff go talk to him and he will tell you nearly the same


Manttis
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:04:00 - [232]
 

1. According to the Quarterly Economic Report only about 40% of minerals are coming from Mining!

2. In order to mine at anywhere near a reasonable rate of say 20m/hour requires a lot of infrastructure. You need to have a rorqual boosting, an upgraded i-hub with industry 3, a POS/station, a max skilled hulk pilot, and some method of hauling huge amounts of m3. All of this while under the threat of getting killed. That is 3 accounts, and billions of ISK in investment, working for less than what one account can make ratting in 0.0 or running lvl 4 high sec missions. Euro players also have a huge advantage of being able to mine the belts clear of high ends before US players can log on.

3. Ice rocks should not be unlimited, they should be similar to grav sites for minerals that you have to scan down and move to. Having static sites lets Reds afk cloaky camp the sites or log off in the site. Again this extra risk is only providing a 10% bonus for the names ICE in 0.0

4. You should not get a 100% refine on modules/ships. This is used for compression purposes currently which is just a work around for there not being near enough low ends in 0.0 This also floods the market with tons of minerals now that a lot more people are salvaging in Noctis.

5. I truly think you need a new mineral type that is only available is 0.0 not dropping from mods, not in wh’s , not drone droppings etc. that is used for more than inventing. It is much easier to give than take away!!


S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:18:00 - [233]
 

Mining was at it's best in around 2008. I started playing late 2006, started getting more accounts, 5 in total at that stage, and made a plan to get into 0.0. I moved to Detorid which is rather rich in minerals.

Back then Megacyte was around 4200 a unit, it is now 2700, Zydrine was around 2600 a unit it is now 724. Morphite was around 16k a unit, now 3340.

I do understand that peoples skills have improved and so can mine more efficiently. Also there has been other changes like Rorquals and Orcas. For the most part these are rather small percentage changes. So my question to the CCP devs is, what has really caused this change in high end mineral prices?

WH space, Industry upgrades?

I know my figures are rough ones, but this is a 35% price decrease in Megacyte, 72% in Zydrine and 79% for morphite.

I do understand that things change over time, but a rough 62% drop is not right. There is a lot of skill time, mining time and ISK invested into mining. Either reduce WH space high ends, they are small enough to import into WH space( And yes, I did live in WH space for a long while, we exported a lot of high ends ) or create CCP buy orders, create more mineral sinks.

Please make mining worthwhile again.

S8nt.

Lazerus Bulder
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:25:00 - [234]
 

Dear CCP Greyscale ugh

Statics are easy to manipulate. If you are going to throw numbers out as prove of a point, you need to clearly state how you came by the numbers. Otherwise we are all Number 1. Wink

If you count despawned grav-sites at mined, your numbers would be wrong.
We all(people runnig sites in WH-space) despawn Grav-sites.
When we enter a new WH we spawn all sites to kill the few sleepers there, because that is were we make our ISK.
So all Grav-sites are despawned, except the rare grav-site in our own home system, that we (maybe) mine for production.

If you are to make belive that there is a problem, you will need to show the statics for the entire Mining/Refining/Reprossecing/Ore-Drop system.
The LSE runs across allot of WH's, and it is a rare treat to find a pilot mining.

I think the assumption that you need to change mining in WH-space to make Null sec mining better is based on false information. With a system as complex as EVE, and (I am guessing here)the shear amount of data you need to go thru to truly know if there is a problem, I suspect that you have been presented with idea from a surprised NULL-sec blob pilot that just want it all for them self, with no data to back it up.

And in your block you keep mentioning that Null sec should be.....
WH space is null sec. Wink

Please don't fix what is not broken. Wink

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:47:00 - [235]
 

What if you just disallowed compression for the high end ores in WH space?

that way if you're mining to manufacture, nothing changes, but if you're mining to sell, its either 20X more hauling or a 25% cut in profit.

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.17 22:55:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Messoroz on 17/08/2011 23:18:44
Edited by: Messoroz on 17/08/2011 23:07:30
Edited by: Messoroz on 17/08/2011 23:04:48

Originally by: CCP Greyscale


If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Have you included polymers in the production numbers? They require alot of ABC minerals to convert the ladar gas into polymers. We have an guy using an alt mining almost all the time when hes on for the minerals to react thousands of m3 of ladar gas daily and purely for reactions only.

There's also a reasonw hy the numbers are shifted towards coveters, the smart ones found out that using hulks is expensive due to losses that occur.

Quote:
KEEP C4's, C5's and C6's full of ore so THEIR RESIDENTS can build cap ships that run sleeper sites.


Only complete idiots build caps in C5 and C6s where you can just use null/low holes to bring them in. The refining loss from ore, plus the increased time and mineral use due to pos arrays literally makes it a complete waste of isk and time to build one in wspace unless you are in C4s and below, where people will often haul in completed capital parts or mine for it.

Quote:

I do understand that things change over time, but a rough 62% drop is not right. There is a lot of skill time, mining time and ISK invested into mining. Either reduce WH space high ends, they are small enough to import into WH space( And yes, I did live in WH space for a long while, we exported a lot of high ends ) or create CCP buy orders, create more mineral sinks.



You argued absolutely nothing properly agaisnt wspace ore. Wspace gravs require the same skill, mining and ISK invested, BUT ALOT MORE. You need to pay for pos fuels, you need to spend extra hours hauling, you lose 25% of your ore to the refining array if you use one in the POS.


However if there is to be an middle ground on the ABC issue, how about halfing the ore totals across all gravs in wspace and monitoring the reaction?

And also back to the other issue, ice, as mentioned by me and others above, IT MUST remain viable for wspace to keep their poses running, we have no other form of living. We are already heavily affected by issues such as a terrible bookmark system that causes us to use cans to share and the loading time for the can contents increases EXPOTENTIALLY with bookmarks, it also causes invisible session change when you attempt to upload 30 bookmarks+. Other notable issues are the permission systems that aren't enough to cover the demands on them. There's also logistics that are already difficult enough, C5 residents can go weeks without a viable kspace route for fuel.

Leia Hertz
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:02:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Heroltior Ghedonia
Originally by: Marv Caldarion
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk



+1

Still need to kill off the botters.


I'm writing this as I watch a botter fight me for the same roids in high-sec. I've petitioned, but they've never done a damn thing about it. He's on 2 hours after DT and on until all the veldspar is gone.


Ob Kant
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:03:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Ob Kant on 17/08/2011 23:03:26
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).

If you assume the standard T1 1:4:16:64:256:1024:4096 relationship between different ore needs (which is skewed further away from the highends if you're concentrating on stuff like ammo, IIRC), and if you assume that all the veldspar mined in w-space is used for production (which incidentally is something like 0.7% of total veld mined, and I'm ignoring trit from other ores here), there's approximately 100 times more megacyte being mined in w-space than is needed for production; that "100x" number goes up the more ammo is being built, and it goes up if you factor in trit from other ores. It's hard to see what people would be doing with all that mega other than selling it on the market.

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


Is there any way of telling how much those % do affect the market? I have a sinking feeling I owe CCP Greysacale some malt, but just to be sure...

Re safety:
About a quarter of the ore costs a quarter of the Hulks? I's say that's fair. If the input from many is correct dew Hulka are used, so that would mean a good percentage of those used are lost (I'd wager 60%).
60% of Covetors lost? 60? Wow. WH's are dangerous! Told ya!

@CCP Greyscale: Thank you for supplying the data. Kudos! Very Happy

S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:07:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: S8nt on 17/08/2011 23:09:19
Originally by: Messoroz
You argued absolutely nothing properly agaisnt wspace ore. Wspace gravs require the same skill, mining and ISK invested, BUT ALOT MORE. You need to pay for pos fuels, you need to spend extra hours hauling, you lose 25% of your ore to the refining array if you use one in the POS.


They are a massive source of high end OREs that wasn't there in 2008. By what you say nothing that you mine exits the WH. Almost all that you mine goes to Jita or other market hubs.

Yes there is more people playing EVE, but there is also more being consumed. What has also increased is the sources of ORE.

The big question is... what has caused prices to fall like they have and what is going to be done to balance it out to make the ISK per hour more like say mission running or ratting.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:21:00 - [240]
 

I just want to take a moment here to laugh at all the wormholers who spent the last few weeks tying women's underwear in knots.

Relax, bros.


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