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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:56:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Part of the reason for doing this kind of feedback round is to get precisely this sort of info Smile If you know of some knowledgeable WH types who can give a clear explanation of their perspective on this stuff, then seriously please ask them to come post here. Clear, reasoned perspectives on things are hugely valuable resources for us.

We can certainly do that, and will. But history teaches us that hard data is much more useful than anecdotes, and you have access to the hard data, or approximations to it that will tell you if there is a significant problem in WH space as a whole or in subsets of it (C1-2, for example)

After all, for thousands of years, we had great anecdotal evidence that bloodletting was a cure for all manner of ailments.

Don't bleed WH space without the facts on your side.

Yashir Wong
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:00:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Yashir Wong on 16/08/2011 18:04:36
Time to throw in my 2 cents here.

I can't comment on ice in high sec because it's a part of the game I haven't touched, but I have waded neck deep through w-space.

I've been playing this game for about 10 months now but since day 1 I've been exploring and poking my head around wormholes. In that entire span of time, jumping into strange new systems and scanning out the contents of hundreds of them, I have encountered exactly 1 system where all the gravimetric (mining) sites were absent/mined clean. 1 system in hundreds. To me, this says that people in w-space don't mine, much less make any kind of impact on the ore market out in known space.

There's something else I want you to think about here. You cannot afk mine in w-space. I'll say it again, louder, YOU CANNOT AFK MINE IN W-SPACE! Think long and hard about the implications of that and reconsider the amount of ore coming from there.

Now this is just anecdotal evidence. If someone has solid numbers that point the other way I'm sure we'd all be delighted to take a look.

Ender Black
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:01:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Ender Black on 16/08/2011 18:11:01
Hey Greyscale,

Allegedly, there is a Dev who has a character in a w-space corporation. The fact that he hasn't literally beaten you about the head and shoulders concerning this whole :lolMining initiative is disappointing.

I don't believe that the issue really should boil down to "W-space is dangerous therefore it should have ABC." It should boil down to CCP's direction of EVE to have W-space be the place where the T3's are manufactured and T2's supposedly being built in sovereign nullsec. How does giving nullsec everything required to manufacture their T2's without outside logistic requirements (for ores) match W-Space if you remove ABCs?

I am disappointed with the CSM who have shown blatant ignorance of W-Space mechanics and what happens in this very vibrant yet dark corner of New Eden. I also can't shake the niggling feeling that the developers of EVE Online forgot what W-Space was intended to be. It is more disappointing when you consider that Apocrypha was probably the best expansion yet regarding real content and game changing ideas. (Someone should explain to our "Dear Leader" Mittens, who was so impressed with Incursions earlier, that we've been enjoying killing NPCs with this same AI for a while now in w-space.)

Lastly, this summer should have shown you clearly that this community isn't easily mollified with :words and is very passionate of the game. Their passion is only matched by their distrust of new initiatives by the developers. Show us a graph (better a CVS or Excel data)of the ore/mineral generation within New Eden. The last one presented by CCP that I can remember clearly showed that most minerals (high-end) were coming from Meta 0-3 recycling and "drone poo". I doubt very much that has changed.

W-Space is working as intended. Nullsec mining is an issue (mostly born of their cowardice when it comes to AFK Cloakers and their typical demand to be bullet proof safe) and I wouldn't be at all bothered if it were buffed. Something obviously needs to be done. But sacrificing something that works to promote one side of the game by making the most difficult part of the game even more tedious and difficult is patently wrong.

Show us the data - All the W-space people I know use the ore/mineral for their own consumption.

** EDIT **
More importantly by removing w-space high end ores CCP contradicts itself in the last two Nullsec DevBlogs. Specifically, the section referring to mechanics should be "can" and "not must." Please realize that we respond positively to positive reinforcing mechanics and nothing but gnashing of teeth and pitchforks and torches when you force us to change through negative reinforcing behavioral modification regimes.

Etra Kurdaj
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:03:00 - [154]
 

My biggest issues mining is that:
1) My corps doesn't really support it, so I'm doing my mining and hauling completely solo in a T1 Cruiser and T1 Industrial
2) When my Can gets flipped and/or stolen, I'm completely out of luck.

My Corps just got War Decc'd and so we completely moved into Null Sec to escape High Sec ganks (they won't fight us in Null Sec). But in Null Sec, now my T1 Cruiser can't pop the rats so now I can't mine - ignoring the higher risk inherent to mining in Null Sec anyway.

What I'm saying is, the game "grew" faster than I did, and now I'm drowning. I've shelved all my mining operations and now just do lvl 1 and lvl 2 missions because at least when I do those, I have guns on my ship and not mining lasers. At least now if I get ambushed by rats or a PvP dude, I have a fighting chance.

To summarize: how do your goals of pushing players into Null Sec accommodate a newer player who still has sub 1.6 mil sp?

Solier Lynx
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:37:00 - [155]
 

1. Ice mining should be kept in high sec as well as low
a good compromise might be:
- The removeal of stront in the ice in high sec as null sec get Dark Glitter, Gelidus Krystallos and Glare Crust.
- Have the ice in high sec Despawn after a certain amount has been mined from the targetted roid.
- Lower the quantity gained from mining ice in high sec to 200 topes and increse the null sec topes to 450.

2. I think the high end minerals (arknor, bistot crokite Mercoxit) from wormholes space should be removed depending on the static wormhole for example if said wormhole has a static high sec then i don't think it should get be able to get the high end minerals as they can quite easyly be imported / exported via the high sec enterence, however i think that wormholes with other static holes should still be able to mine them for example a wormhole with a static null sec or a wormhole with a static Class 4 as the majority of these minerals are used in production within the wormhole as previously stated by other people, as well as being alot harder to export and import them.

NovaCat13
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:46:00 - [156]
 

I'm with Ender here, both in corp and standing *zing*! The CSMs obvious lack of understanding of w-space doesn't help. But even from a RP standpoint of course w-space has ABCs, w-space was supposed to be fresh and unmolested unlike Empire which have been stripped clean.

And living in the hole for a few months now, I completely understand the nightmare that is logistics, you never have a consistent path, you have no idea if anyone is there unless you scan the system, unlike 0.0 logistics. Send covert ops away, let him light cyno next to high sec, bam, jump your freighter and you're 1 *safe* jump away from Concord. This can be done 23/7 if need be. If we had a huge hauling fleet, it would quickly stop due to mass limits and RNG putting your next hole in the bum end of nowhere.

Plus I'd really like to see where market ABC come from, because to put it out there, I've been in w-space for 3 months, and I've been a part of TWO whole grav mining operations! OH NOES THE MARKET FLOODING!

Lazerus Bulder
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:49:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Ender Black
Edited by: Ender Black on 16/08/2011 18:11:01
Hey Greyscale,

Allegedly, there is a Dev who has a character in a w-space corporation. The fact that he hasn't literally beaten you about the head and shoulders concerning this whole :lolMining initiative is disappointing.

I don't believe that the issue really should boil down to "W-space is dangerous therefore it should have ABC." It should boil down to CCP's direction of EVE to have W-space be the place where the T3's are manufactured and T2's supposedly being built in sovereign nullsec. How does giving nullsec everything required to manufacture their T2's without outside logistic requirements (for ores) match W-Space if you remove ABCs?

I am disappointed with the CSM who have shown blatant ignorance of W-Space mechanics and what happens in this very vibrant yet dark corner of New Eden. I also can't shake the niggling feeling that the developers of EVE Online forgot what W-Space was intended to be. It is more disappointing when you consider that Apocrypha was probably the best expansion yet regarding real content and game changing ideas. (Someone should explain to our "Dear Leader" Mittens, who was so impressed with Incursions earlier, that we've been enjoying killing NPCs with this same AI for a while now in w-space.)

Lastly, this summer should have shown you clearly that this community isn't easily mollified with :words and is very passionate of the game. Their passion is only matched by their distrust of new initiatives by the developers. Show us a graph (better a CVS or Excel data)of the ore/mineral generation within New Eden. The last one presented by CCP that I can remember clearly showed that most minerals (high-end) were coming from Meta 0-3 recycling and "drone poo". I doubt very much that has changed.

W-Space is working as intended. Nullsec mining is an issue (mostly born of their cowardice when it comes to AFK Cloakers and their typical demand to be bullet proof safe) and I wouldn't be at all bothered if it were buffed. Something obviously needs to be done. But sacrificing something that works to promote one side of the game by making the most difficult part of the game even more tedious and difficult is patently wrong.

Show us the data - All the W-space people I know use the ore/mineral for their own consumption.

** EDIT **
More importantly by removing w-space high end ores CCP contradicts itself in the last two Nullsec DevBlogs. Specifically, the section referring to mechanics should be "can" and "not must." Please realize that we respond positively to positive reinforcing mechanics and nothing but gnashing of teeth and pitchforks and torches when you force us to change through negative reinforcing behavioral modification regimes.


I could not have said it better.

ABC are not a problem for the market or industrial people in high/low/null sec. If you think so, please show me the data to support this.

Don't fix what is not broken

Pubbie Scum
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:51:00 - [158]
 

Increase yield in 0.0, lowsec, and WH space too, by making the ore smaller but richer in minerals so that it takes only an hour or so to get through a site or belt. Make the belt asteroids and sites respawn slower, possibly only a few per day per system, or constellation. This allows mining to be less time consuming and more profitable for players, but at the same time dangerous if a hostile group figures out your patterns and is looking for some kills. (They run the sites every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at around 2100 eve time, lets get them!) It also means that it might be more efficient to strip the sites clean rather than just going for ABC, resulting in a low to moderate amount of low end minerals, but a ton of highends.

Belts could be depleted quicker in highsec (20 minutes per belt?) with large mining ops, and you can have a situation where multiple mining conglomerates are fighting for free belts within a populated area. The same can be done for ice, resulting in highsec ice belts being depleted very quickly with little profit to go around. This would result in much more of a push to lowsec and nullsec for available resources, and meaningful wars and fights in highsec. Scarcity is key here.

It also means that a small but mean mining group can ninja a day's worth of minerals from another alliance in null or lowsec via Rorquals and carriers and a medium sized defense gang, deny the other alliance the ability to mine for the day, and earn a decent profit.

As mining ops get more isk/hour, you will have more people wanting to stick around and defend these ops from hostiles for a portion of the isk.

You could also have the Rorqual give out a a titan-style (7.5% per level of capital industrial ship level) mining yield bonus, since those never go into highsec you can improve mining levels within null and low sec.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:21:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/08/2011 22:21:52
Let's make the big question:

CCP has done its research on the sources of minerals, or you are still using that old table where reprocessed modules from loot were mixed up with module used for mineral compression and "failed" T2 production?

And if you have some reliable information son the sources of minerals will you care to share it?

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Ok, so here's the thing about wormhole space: it doesn't need mining as a reward type. All the other stuff you can get out of sleeper sites is more than enough to make w-space viable as an area of the game, with the sorts of activities we were hoping to cater for with it. Further, having miners sitting around in sites (and/or warping off starbases) doesn't really add a whole lot to the overall dynamic. The only thing it's really achieving is giving people a pretty safe place to mine high-ends and make a lot of money.

At the CSM summit, CCP did not have any metrics regarding mining high-ends in WH-space and their export to the rest of the game, nor has any subsequently been disclosed to the CSM.

Lacking metrics that show significant outflows of high-ends into the greater economy, there is no justification for nerfing it in WH-space for philosophical reasons. While WH space may not "need" it as a reward type, WH residents need it as a resource for local consumption. WH import and export is already tough enough without adding a whole class of materials that must be laboriously imported. We can't just jump-freighter it in, after all.

If CCP does have credible metrics that show that WH-sourced ABC is distorting the EVE economy (as opposed to being locally consumed), then by all means show this to the CSM. I for one will be happy to report to the community whether or not the quantities are significant.


This, dammit!

CCP should have all the data and instead go for some vague feeling on how the mineral are produced.
Then they are surprised when they change something and the results are different from what they predict.


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:37:00 - [160]
 

Ive been living in a w-system for over a year. We mainly slay sleepers, but when we get tired of that we do mine. We do it for the ISK (high end ores) and to build stuff (all ore types). We are mostly done building a second Thanatos. Despite the mining, we are hauling in minerals for it.

Of all our activities, mining is the lowest ISK maker, but it beats high sec mining, and when we are low on sleeper sites, gives us something to do.

CCP: You have said you want activities that keep people on-line. Well, W-space mining is one of them. Please do not make it worthless.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:16:00 - [161]
 

Greyscale,

ABC is not profitable for export out of w-space see here to know why and how ABC in w-space can't possibly influence nullsec profits from ABC. Just to get you a quick summary, it'll take 2.76 years for one pilot to export out of a wormhole the same amount of ore that a freighter from nullsec can export in the form of minerals within a few hours. Follow the link in that post to see the break down of the math.

However, not being profitable does not mean it isn't a valued resource. It is, for our own purposes within w-space.


Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:38:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Sephiroth CloneIIV on 16/08/2011 22:39:13
About drones...

Mining with guns. Yea it gets minerals better and maybe higher quanitys then mining (you can't use a capital to mine normally), but compared with other nullsec ratting does it net more? No, from experience and knowledge I would say it pays less then other nullsec regions. Just because one powerblock controls it doesn't mean its a great monopoly to have, its just that to hold many undesirable regions of space takes less effort then one desirable region.

1. the isk per hour is less then other ratting, and lazy people in other space can always chose to just take bounties and never salvage (and items dropped can always be used, meta 4 is not tech 2 but is desired more due to ease of fitting and skills to use).
2. the faction spawns in drone space are crap, you get mods and blueprints (including the expensive faction ships, up to battleships) for any non-drone space and drone space you get worthless components and BPO's to make mediocre drones.

To make drones not drones, would make all drone space worth more.

AP John
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:50:00 - [163]
 

Hello all,

I have spent over 1 year in WH at this point and I must say that we do not do that much ore mining. First of all, our grav sites don't even have the superior asteroids types of the ABC, actually of any minerals, so we are already at a disadvantage from k-space. Second we mine enough to only support our own internal production of ships and modules as someone said before this is one of the worst activities in a wormhole as it pays very little to sleeper killing.

@CCP: You should already have the spreadsheets of were all the ABC on the market comes from.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:59:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Covert Kitty on 16/08/2011 23:10:58
On wormholes and mining:

I have lived in wormholes almost since Apocrypha. SRS is a wormhole alliance, and we occupy many wormholes of various classes up to C5. Our players come from all kinds of backgrounds, some of Saiph's founding members started out life as miners.

There has been discussion about if a lot of highends come out of wormholes. I just don't see it, in the end CCP could probably confirm that with some database query's. The reason you don't see more mining in wormholes is that firstly you make far more running sleeper sites in your static than mining. Secondly due to hauling and mass issues mining is essentially limited to your home wormhole. Lastly its limited in your home wormhole because you run out of sites pretty quickly if members are serious about doing it.

I very rarely see anyone mining when doing wormhole roams. It's a good feature to have I think to provide a little diversity to the environment, however whenever we find grav's we just warp to them to get them despawned so our sig list doesn't get too cluttered. I would be surprised if wh's contributed in any significant way to overall highend supply.

Some have suggested that highends should be limited to C5's and C6's. That would imply that people thought any significant amount was actually coming from lower classes. In fact if there is any noticeable amount coming out of wormholes it would be coming from C5's and C6's simply because you have the ability to ship out large volumes of m3 from time to time. This combined with the fact that many C5,6 dwellers exist in fairly large packs, and will run all of their sigs in a big group. That said, I still doubt very much comes out of even those.

All that said, I could really care less if there was mining there or not. It seems like if it were removed, something should replace it to help flesh out the environment a bit more however.

PS: On a side note, I'd like to say that Apocrypha was by far my favorite expansion. One of very few that really added to Eve gameplay in a significant way. I am heartened to read about all of the idea's being tossed around by the devs in the recent blog. I agree with almost all of it. With the recent gameplay displacing Aurum bs, its good to know that the novel idea of actually improving and expanding on Eve's gameplay is still under discussion.

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:48:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Slimy Worm on 16/08/2011 23:53:15
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 16/08/2011 23:50:22
Carebears move to nullsec dreaming of pressing F1 against Arkanor and Mercoxit, but once they get there they realize that ships still need trit to be built. They end up mining Veldspar, just like they did in highsec. Why the extra risk without significant reward?

But this can be easily fixed in many ways:

Making highsec minerals like Veldspar and Pyroxores always appear as +5% or higher outside of highsec and decrease their chance of appearing in highsec.

Adding more tritanium and other basic ship construction minerals to lowsec and nullsec ores.

Removing the Orca's ability to be a mobile jetcan in highsec, and reducing its fleet bonuses in highsec.

Making neutral Orcas who provide fleet bonuses to people at war valid war targets for the duration of their bonus and for 15 subsequent minutes, as if they provided neutral remote repair.

Ob Kant
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:03:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Part of the reason for doing this kind of feedback round is to get precisely this sort of info If you know of some knowledgeable WH types who can give a clear explanation of their perspective on this stuff, then seriously please ask them to come post here. Clear, reasoned perspectives on things are hugely valuable resources for us.


As much as a appreciate the will to hear the players perspective on this I must point out that I've not heard anything regarding the metrics on this. It is the same as during fanfest where you, Grayscale (IIRC), on my question regarding POS loss ratio between Hi/Lo/Null and if there was any truth in WH POS being eazymood. Grayscale replied with something to the effect of "interesting question, we'll need to look in the metrics on that".

CCP has the metrics. I'll be severely shocked if it shows that people are making serious ISK out of mining. The little mining I've done in the C1 and C2 where I lived for the past almost year have never left the hole, IIRC. Production swallows more than the gravs can give.

And how many times must players repeat the same thing before it becomes clear that CCP get how dangerous WH local makes sitting still? I seldom see people mine in WH. Basically because it is dangerous, I suppose. That though is NOT a reason to remove the ore. Rather the little ore that is there allows for interesting gameplay. Some people LIKE to mine, and others like to hunt miners. So the little ore there is allows for GAMEPLAY. Don't remove gameplay.

How dangerous mining can be is obvious when you go on hunting trips in Nullsec. Ive seen whole mining ops warp back to into POS when I entered system. A miner is fragile, so getting into safety is wise. When in in Wh space not even guarding any scanned down holes makes you safe as a hole might open from empire space. Or people could do what I do: jump into a wh system and log before going to bed. Next day I'm already in. Dotlan shows no jumps last 8 hours.... locals say "sweet, we're safe".

As for Ice mining: for a small corp fuel prices is a large chunk. Price increase is a concern. But that could be fixed with less profit, less new ships, less roaming (LESS FUN!). As for the ice miners... I don't do that, but know people who actually enjoy it. Some of us do not want action all the time. Some people have jobs that makes them juist want to sit down and take it easy for a while. I do not want my ice-mining friends to leave the game, so again: DON'T REMOVE GAMEPLAY!

C'mon Greyscale. Get the metric. Show us the metric. That could end this fast. If WH ore is shooting nullsec mining profits out of the water, fine. But I bet you a bottle of good single malt it does not.

Stuhami
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:49:00 - [167]
 

CCp has three options:

1) make better ships for mining.

*CCP has frigate sized mining ships, cruiser sized mining ships..

---> They dont have Battleship sized mining ships, nor capital sized mining ships. (by this I mean ships that can mine not boost)

2) Make better ore:
Leave the old set of ores in high sec and create a different set that yields more when refined. Voldspar, dense veldspar etc, just arent enough to make the dangers fit the reward.

3) Make better mining lasers and mining crystals that can only be used in nullsec. Double the yield and half the cycle time would make it a nice stop and go hide thing since you are able to mine more in between the moments of enemy attacks.

** A nice thing ccp could add would be boosters that affect mining yield or miner cycle time.

*** Also make more gas clouds for gods sake. At least one system for every constelations should have gas cloads in null sec. Or better yet, make it a chance based thing where once a day a gas cload spawns
in one system of every constelation. There would still be a limited number and you would still have to find them.


Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:54:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Ob Kant
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Part of the reason for doing this kind of feedback round is to get precisely this sort of info If you know of some knowledgeable WH types who can give a clear explanation of their perspective on this stuff, then seriously please ask them to come post here. Clear, reasoned perspectives on things are hugely valuable resources for us.


As much as a appreciate the will to hear the players perspective on this I must point out that I've not heard anything regarding the metrics on this. It is the same as during fanfest where you, Grayscale (IIRC), on my question regarding POS loss ratio between Hi/Lo/Null and if there was any truth in WH POS being eazymood. Grayscale replied with something to the effect of "interesting question, we'll need to look in the metrics on that".

CCP has the metrics. I'll be severely shocked if it shows that people are making serious ISK out of mining. The little mining I've done in the C1 and C2 where I lived for the past almost year have never left the hole, IIRC. Production swallows more than the gravs can give.

And how many times must players repeat the same thing before it becomes clear that CCP get how dangerous WH local makes sitting still? I seldom see people mine in WH. Basically because it is dangerous, I suppose. That though is NOT a reason to remove the ore. Rather the little ore that is there allows for interesting gameplay. Some people LIKE to mine, and others like to hunt miners. So the little ore there is allows for GAMEPLAY. Don't remove gameplay.

How dangerous mining can be is obvious when you go on hunting trips in Nullsec. Ive seen whole mining ops warp back to into POS when I entered system. A miner is fragile, so getting into safety is wise. When in in Wh space not even guarding any scanned down holes makes you safe as a hole might open from empire space. Or people could do what I do: jump into a wh system and log before going to bed. Next day I'm already in. Dotlan shows no jumps last 8 hours.... locals say "sweet, we're safe".

As for Ice mining: for a small corp fuel prices is a large chunk. Price increase is a concern. But that could be fixed with less profit, less new ships, less roaming (LESS FUN!). As for the ice miners... I don't do that, but know people who actually enjoy it. Some of us do not want action all the time. Some people have jobs that makes them juist want to sit down and take it easy for a while. I do not want my ice-mining friends to leave the game, so again: DON'T REMOVE GAMEPLAY!

C'mon Greyscale. Get the metric. Show us the metric. That could end this fast. If WH ore is shooting nullsec mining profits out of the water, fine. But I bet you a bottle of good single malt it does not.
And Iíll throw in a bottle of Kentucky straight Bourbon, small batch, 9 years in the cask. Just in case he wants to wager for something thatís really good to drink.

OhÖÖ.also QFT.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:59:00 - [169]
 

ok so far the summary is

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE They took yer jerbs.

But anyway my deciphering of all the posts is this.

If you nerf high sec mining, you basically screw all high sec production, and all wh space production. What makes you think 0.0 people are going to be nice and haul isotopes to empire? Remember 0.0 doesnt rely on pos warfare now. you only need 2 pos towers in system 1 with a jump bridge and 1 with a cyno jammer and bam, system is protected well. Only reason people have pos towers other than those is for moon goo.

BTW MOON GOO needs to be balanced more than roid belts and ice belts.

I still stand by my idea better. Buff 0.0 belts leave high sec alone.

Crexa
Star Mandate
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:31:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Crexa
I would love to hear from the master-miner. Or former heavy-weight miner, Chribba.


Looking at my Rorq, Orca, Hulks, Skiffs and Macks that have been collecting dust for a year and a half I'd say you are right, we should rely solely on Chribba's idea's, because he is the only person who matters in EVE Rolling EyesRolling Eyes


Perhaps because he wrote one of the first mining guides? Perhaps because he has contributed to making eve a better game? Maybe because he knows what the hell he is talking about? Hmmm, I don't know maybe your right. ugh

Lili Lu
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:01:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/08/2011 03:01:33
Mara Rinn said:

""There was an idea floated to move all ice to nullsec. This idea does have some merit, but is a rather boneheaded "all or nothing" approach. Certainly, remove all static ice fields from everywhere. Replace them with grav sites. Throttle these sites so that the volume of ice harvested in hisec is reduced (e.g.: by 50%), while the volume of ice in nullsec is effecively "neverending". Establish a guideline of, for example, improving the quantity of all ice consumed that is produced in nullsec. Slowly crank down the number of hisec ice sites spawned until this measure is reached. Some hisec ice harvesters will become extremely rich, with competition arising between corporations seeking out ice sites. Nullsec harvesters will become rich too, simply because the ice they are able to harvest becomes more valuable.

Grav sites should not be identifiable by simply probing them down. All asteroids should turn up on scanners as "asteroid", with the actual composition of asteroids being revealed by surveying them. The manual effort required means that one explorer in nullsec can feed the alliances mining fleets. This is where nullsec has an advantage over hisec - everyone in that system is "on the same team", as opposed to hisec where everyone else in the system is a potential competitor
.""

At first this sems a decent compromise. The problem is that making high-sec ice an exploration item, or depletable in belts is that this will make it just another feature that eastern europeans will get the first crack at as it spawns after down time. And thus it will also only benefit the established alliance supplying bot operations in empire.

Sure move 0.0 and lowsec ice to grav sites. This provides some security for the ships that will need it there. But leave it as is in empire. I think mackinaws will get used in 0.0 then as they will have to be scanned down providing them some gtfo chance if they are paying attention. In empire the ice should be there for the benefit of poeple in tzs of the americas not just the earliest tzs for europeans. ALready so much of the content in this game is spawned after downtime tilting the oportunities to the early europe tzs.

Also, I've lived in empire and 0.0. I've pvp'd and engaged in industry. I know I am not the only one. This all or nothing dichotomous view of carebear/pvper is stupid. Many of us do both, and we don't want to see everyone forced into alliance slavery just to engage in research/mining/industry, anymore than we would want all pvp to have to be nullsec warfare. Moving all ice to 0.0 would kill off empire production activities.

Many of the empire producers are solo or small group ventures that put up a pos and go from there. They strive to do it themselves. It is the group activities, believe it or not, that have more value to them than the economics of making more isk with some other activity over that time. Self-sufficiency is a value in itself. People denigrate this as the mins I mine are free, but that is reducing all game value to isk per hour theoretical efficency. That is not the goal for many, it is the pride in diy, or as much self-sufficiency as possible that is a goal in itself.

In fact the empire bot miners are largely 0.0 agents. Fellows botting thier multiple accounts in order to gather fuels in empire for export to their alliance holdings in 0.0. Removing the ice from empire will not hurt these guys much, as the alliance overlords will just set up 0.0 operations for those bot lords (albeit with some simultaneous security ops then). But removal of ice from high sec will drive the diy gamers from the game, of which I assert there are many. The backlash against the idea of moving all ice to 0.0 is less carebear v pvp, than it is people wanting to stay diy and refusing to become serfs to 0.0 overlords.

Lola Del'astakhos
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:42:00 - [172]
 

ok, so the goal here is to drive up the value of certain ores and even ice to make null sec mining more profitable and more appealing for those of us that live in null sec full time. Being someone who lives in null sec full time and mines full time, this is something that I personally really want. But how do we do it without screwing the high sec people? That I think is the real question we need to find the answer to. Please keep in mind when reading these suggestions that this is coming from a grunts perspective in a small corp who only controls one system. I'm not speaking form the perspective of a super null sec blob. I know nothing about all that!

Would getting rid of ice bots in high sec help towards the overall goal? Would adding better belts in Null sec Help? Would tweaking refining in both help? Perhaps it would, and here is my idea of how to do it which someone may have already suggested.

1. Remove static Ice Belts completely from the entire game. Replace them with low volume ice grav sites that need to be scanned down with probes. Once a player finds one of these grav sites, it should take about an hour or so to mine it out, depending to the security status of the system. Mining out a site would cause it to despawn and respawn 5 mins later in a different location in the system. This new belt would have to be probed down again, rinse and repeat. This will make it very difficult for botters, impossible even to sit there all day and mine endlessly. Not only that, but legitimate miners will basically have the same access to ice they do now. Two Birds, One Stone. Also make the size/volume of the belt and the types of ice in it directly related to the security status of the system. This would mean belts in say 0.5 systems would be larger and last longer than belts in 1.0 systems. It would also make low sec and null sec ice mining more appealing.

Now I'm going to move onto Null sec only suggestions.

2. Refining Ore in Null Sec sucks. Please give us a better base refining % for player outposts and bases. Your cutting into our profit for no good reason and discouraging mining in null sec over all for smaller corps and corp grunts who don't have massive logistics to move around easily. A miners life in Null sec is difficult enough as it is with neuts coming in, rats that jam and **** our ships, and having to have a "freighter ops" to safely move our ore however many jumps away to even get it refined. I understand it's null sec and it's meant to be harder, but if you want to help bring up the income of the "corp grunts", lets us refine better as a reward for living the "hard knock life" in null please, no reason to punish us for doing it. My corp is small, and controls only one system in Null Sec. I made more money much faster mining in high then I do here due to poor refining, logistics, and constant interruptions from neuts and rat spawns every 15 mins. I like Null and want to stay here, but I'm making very little isk for a very big effort.

3. Hidden Belts need an overhaul. More high end ores and denser low end ores would be nice. Currently when a new belt pops it takes all of a few hours to mine out the ABC's and then we are stuck with crap-load worthless ore for 3 days until the thing respawns. It also requires me to wake up at the crack a$$ of dawn to make sure the Euro players don't get all the good stuff. Belts repop at DT, which is the middle of the day for them, we Americans get screwed every time. I'm not sure how to fix this problem as you don't want to flood the market with high ends as that would drive down the price and screw everyone.

Currently ratters in my corp make many, many, many times more then miners do. Also I make less mining then I did in Highsec mining veld of all things. I'm not sure how you will fix this, but something needs to change. Keep in mind this is feedback from a nameless grunt in a nameless corp just trying to crave out a living in the vastness of nullsec. Please help CCP.

Ob Kant
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:44:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Ob Kant
...a bottle of good single malt it does not.
And Iíll throw in a bottle of Kentucky straight Bourbon, small batch, 9 years in the cask. Just in case he wants to wager for something thatís really good to drink.



Hm, We should get together next Fanfest to.. . compare notes. Or something.

Akihoshi
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:52:00 - [174]
 

I myself am appalled at the blatant pandering of the CSM's for boost Nullsec, and their surprising lack of knowledge of Wormhole space and mechanics. On this issue CCP has all the needed information on what is causing the drop in prices and has only to look in their own database to find the reason, as to why they are not is the true question. Now this is not to say that Nullsec does not need to be re-balanced as it has changed since I started ( I started just after Red Moon Rising ).

With that in mind the idea of removing ABC ores form Wormholes I find to be ridiculous. When I started Eve I started a Care-bear and joined a mining corp and well mined, boring and tedious work but I had fun. then I branched out and over the next few years of coming back to Eve and leaving for extended breaks I came back to EVE to stay. when I came back I learned of Wormhole space and moved out there and have been enjoying it ever since. However one thought needs to be kept in mind "Wormhole space is NOT NullSEC it is is own entity".The calls to nerf one entity of Eve for another are absurd and based on complete ignorance.

What I have found in Wormhole space is that Grav sites are few and far in between, in the corporation that I am in we use ours in the wormhole itself and not putting it in the highsec market like the some would have you think. I am also sure that most other corporations are the same as using the minerals there instead of carting them to highsec makes sense since you don't have the logistical nightmare or taking them to highsec space. That is not to say that some corporation don't do that but I am sure that the majority don't.

As for a personal viewpoint I have found that the most profitable activity in Wormhole space is shooting sleepers and getting the loot needed for T3 cruiser development not mining. Furthermore before I moved out to wormhole space I ran nothing but level 4 missions in high sec and during that Month I looted and salvaged every mission that I did, in the end I came out with enough minerals to make two battleships and that is without perfect refining skills for refining modules.

once again I find it ridiculous that people are calling to nerf one part of eve over another without actually seeing the data, and as to why CCP has not even reviewed this data themselves.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:43:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 17/08/2011 05:13:47
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Ok, so here's the thing about wormhole space: it doesn't need mining as a reward type. All the other stuff you can get out of sleeper sites is more than enough to make w-space viable as an area of the game, with the sorts of activities we were hoping to cater for with it. Further, having miners sitting around in sites (and/or warping off starbases) doesn't really add a whole lot to the overall dynamic. The only thing it's really achieving is giving people a pretty safe place to mine high-ends and make a lot of money.

Nullsec on the other hand benefits a lot from having mining ops around - they add a lot to the overall ecosystem. As it stands though it seems to be the case that minerals from wormholes are depressing the prices of high-ends and making it not really that profitable to mine them in nullsec. Given this, finding ways to stop people mining high-ends in wormholes to sell on the market is a good thing for us.

That said, wormholes do need smallish amounts of high-ends for on-site construction. This is something we'd prefer to maintain, as we like a bit of self-sufficiency. The problem is supplying them in a way such that organized groups can still get enough to build, without allowing people to sit in C2s all day mining ABCs. One of the things we're looking at in this regard is ensuring there are high-end rocks inside combat sites, so that if you want your high-ends for construction you can have the barges roll in along with the looters and salvagers once sites are cleared, but you need to be continually clearing combat sites to keep your miners busy.


Oh gawd - you had me so scared Greyscale/Team BFF before I read this post. I am not a huge miner but I do enjoy it like you said many do, for some psuedo-mindless time filler here and there. I am also a HUGE WH dweller and I was about to rage if you guys even put a thought to getting rid of all mining in WH's. Reason being again like you said - there needs to be SOME (not tons to depress ore prices assuming this is even true) for construction so WH dwellers can have some independence/fun. I like the idea of combat site mining like in hi-sec. Please don't change your mind on this one though and listen to all the haters like Mittens with his "scrue u WH miners" post a few weeks ago. Talk about short sited! I understand 0.0 needs uniqueness but taking away mining all ores in a WH - then take it away in 0.0. to keep it fair. WH's have T3, 0.0 has T2 and both have sites and logistics problems.

WH's though get no faction loot. They get no relief in refining so you have to haul it out. ONE DARN ORCA TRIP at a time. Then you have to find a place to refine and sell for some profit...its a huge PIA! I tried it awhile and gave up. You just can't haul the stuff out fast enough. Nuff said.

Moving on - I like that you said there will be some Ice mining and some roid finding in hi-sec to keep that sense of exploration around for newbs and to help fuel pos's that reside there. Add some to WH's though and make it scale to yield most for 0.0 and just less from there down.

One more thought- I want to say that although most mine for something mindless - maybe we could JAZZ up mining still though to make it fun as well. In other words - let mining exist in a mindless form but also make there another way to mine at the same time that is more interactive in some way (risk vs reward?? or maybe a mini-game??)

I personally like the idea of having something anchored in a mining field to mine for you so you just fly back and forth to pick up your stuff but that would get rid of ships for mining. Instead - I think the solution is to drastically fix the ships that mine to carry a lot more ore (ore bays) and to make them less susceptable (align time or what not) to this d-scan insta-kill dynamic. Mining shouldn't always need armed escort (i.e. ninja mining).

My two cents.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:59:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 17/08/2011 04:59:42
Originally by: Ender Black
Edited by: Ender Black on 16/08/2011 18:11:01
Hey Greyscale,

Allegedly, there is a Dev who has a character in a w-space corporation. The fact that he hasn't literally beaten you about the head and shoulders concerning this whole :lolMining initiative is disappointing.

I don't believe that the issue really should boil down to "W-space is dangerous therefore it should have ABC." It should boil down to CCP's direction of EVE to have W-space be the place where the T3's are manufactured and T2's supposedly being built in sovereign nullsec. How does giving nullsec everything required to manufacture their T2's without outside logistic requirements (for ores) match W-Space if you remove ABCs?

I am disappointed with the CSM who have shown blatant ignorance of W-Space mechanics and what happens in this very vibrant yet dark corner of New Eden. I also can't shake the niggling feeling that the developers of EVE Online forgot what W-Space was intended to be. It is more disappointing when you consider that Apocrypha was probably the best expansion yet regarding real content and game changing ideas. (Someone should explain to our "Dear Leader" Mittens, who was so impressed with Incursions earlier, that we've been enjoying killing NPCs with this same AI for a while now in w-space.)

Lastly, this summer should have shown you clearly that this community isn't easily mollified with :words and is very passionate of the game. Their passion is only matched by their distrust of new initiatives by the developers. Show us a graph (better a CVS or Excel data)of the ore/mineral generation within New Eden. The last one presented by CCP that I can remember clearly showed that most minerals (high-end) were coming from Meta 0-3 recycling and "drone poo". I doubt very much that has changed.

W-Space is working as intended. Nullsec mining is an issue (mostly born of their cowardice when it comes to AFK Cloakers and their typical demand to be bullet proof safe) and I wouldn't be at all bothered if it were buffed. Something obviously needs to be done. But sacrificing something that works to promote one side of the game by making the most difficult part of the game even more tedious and difficult is patently wrong.

Show us the data - All the W-space people I know use the ore/mineral for their own consumption.

** EDIT **
More importantly by removing w-space high end ores CCP contradicts itself in the last two Nullsec DevBlogs. Specifically, the section referring to mechanics should be "can" and "not must." Please realize that we respond positively to positive reinforcing mechanics and nothing but gnashing of teeth and pitchforks and torches when you force us to change through negative reinforcing behavioral modification regimes.


We require Zydrine and other minerals from ABC for t3 production aka polymers, enough of an reason for ABC.

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:06:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Messoroz on 17/08/2011 05:30:05
So it's late at night and it's time to talk wormholes from an experienced wormholer without using my alts.

--Removing ABC from wspace

From experience, I can tell you grav miners are far and few between systems, very few will go after the ridiculously low amount of isk income compared to running a single anom in 15 minutes with a t2 fit drake that takes less training time than a Hulk and with 1/4 the cost.

In the cases players do mine, there are MANY limitations on what is done with the ore, for one, refining it in the POS just nukes a portion of your result(making it more profitable to mine trit in highsec), the only people I've personally seen refining minerals in a POS are for building their own ships/carriers for that system(i.e. caps can only be built in lower classes). Alternatively, I've seen and ganked haulers moving raw ore to highsec but it is incredibly silly because of the amount of work needed. Wormhole mass limitations add a bit of spice to the mix making it difficult to just use an orca to move 30mil worth of ore as you'll reduce the lower class kspace statics rather quickly.

That being said, one thing that REALLY needs to be looked at clearly is the grav statistics sources. Players do very often clear grav sites just for the sleeper loot/salvage without any intention of mining. I do this to statics regularly where I will spend an hour farming through ~20-30 worthless grav and ladars and make more in isk in that hour of farming that I could possibly imagine mining in the same time. These sites of course despawn 3 days later, but good riddance, it's even practiced in home systems where just having the terrible sites on scan all the time just adds extra unneeded effort to scan each day after downtime which resets the sig IDs.(Don't get me started on the RAGE from when there are server crashes resulting in full sig ID resets).

Another issue with removing ABC is that ABC is in fact required for T3 production, we need it for the magical polymers used later on in the process. In fact this is another reason players may mine a grav site with their alt, purely for the material needed for reaction with the ridiculously more profitable polymers. Personally me and my corp mates just buy the minerals off market and haul it in as there are better things to do with an alt than baby sitting it all day spamming dscan while trying to actually play eve.


Edit: Let me also add that mining with an hulk in wspace is usually found by the intelligent players to be widely unprofitable because of their high costs and the chance of ganks by cloakies is ridiculously high, thus I've seen many just stick to coveters rather than waste isk on hulks. But of course I still see hulks here and there.

Edit 2: In the end, removing ABC won't do anything to wspace, it is vital for the T3 process, mining is worst pve activity in terms of ISK making in wspace, sure you may mine 30 mil/hr worth of ore. But factor in transport costs and you're easily looking at a making more in level 2s in highsec per hour.

--Removing ice from high
Fuel is EXTREMELY precious to wormhole space living, removing ice and the result being a massive cost spike will only shpot the T3 market costs very high counteracting the goals of CCP wanting players to easily obtain them.

An alternative however would be to introduce grades of fuel much like grades of gasoline in real life. The determining factor should be volume, the base fuel should be increased and the null sec fuel should be super awesome to transport. This will throw in a new factor to fuels and should create demand for null sec ice mining while not buttsexing other areas of eve dependent on cheap fuel. But cheap fuel will take longer times for transport due to increased volume.

In the end, I have nothing agaisnt changes to ice, but pos fuel MUST remain viable for players to afford and use in some form and not be something only the super mega rich can afford

lealenia Aivoras
Posted - 2011.08.17 06:08:00 - [178]
 

I dont play this game bcuz It will change when ever some1 wants to change , does not like or belives need to be changed, or thinks its not balanced, not as he/she like.
Leave the game alone so We can play the game we used to play.
CCP still dot get it. Half of this game players, people who like to build, create achieve something good. CCP thinks everybody like to destroy some others digital property and enjoy it as succes of virtual life?
There are many players like me who has own corp and POS. And I like to continue to play like this without being some trigger happy psycho's target practice. CCP still trying to use this innocent players as victims as enjoyment source for other players?
CCP should stop and think twice why highsec population increases and nullsec population drops? maybe players love security of highsec. Maybe most of eve players donít find enjoyable get shot by others as CCP thought.
Now They want to change mining mechanics so they can push these highsec players to nullsec and They can be shot there by CCP's lovely PVP players in order to provide them more entertainment and more enjoyable game.
Moving Ice sources to nullsec will prevent individuals being POS owner, doing research and force them to join some other big corporations.
I dont like being pushed to nullsec. I dont like being forced to join big alliances and some others corporations. I dont like being forced to talk with others so called game play of socialization. My teenage daughter playin this game too and I donít like her being pushed with interaction with strangers players especially on Rated T game.




Heroltior Ghedonia
Posted - 2011.08.17 07:16:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Heroltior Ghedonia on 17/08/2011 07:16:26
Take this as a troll if you so desire, but if CCP wants to fix the ore issue, they should start doing MEANINGFUL BANS on Botting!!!

If you get rid of the AFK miners(Which probably take up more than half of the mining activities), you would then allow for more lucrative sites still available.

Many bots are running 23/7 and kill a fresh spawn within hours after reset.

CCP, enforce your rules and we (the players) will take care of the rest.

Karia Sur
Posted - 2011.08.17 07:24:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Karia Sur on 17/08/2011 07:26:09
Originally by: Heroltior Ghedonia
Edited by: Heroltior Ghedonia on 17/08/2011 07:16:26
Take this as a troll if you so desire, but if CCP wants to fix the ore issue, they should start doing MEANINGFUL BANS on Botting!!!


Agreed.

Stage an all out war on the botters instead of the half-arsed attempt you are currently doing. Then judge the mineral/ore/ice prices for a period of time to properly evaluate the market dynamics and to assess if change is needed.

CCP, your priorities are completely wrong.

EDIT: and pleeeeeeeeeze CCP, dont insult my intelligence by replying saying that you do take botting seriously and are striving to remove it from the game.....the evidence shows a different story.


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