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Cyerus
Galactic Dominion
Eternal Strife
Posted - 2011.08.27 09:55:00 - [481]
 

In order to make NULLSEC 99% self sufficient, you are effectively breaking wormholes in 2 ways.

1. By removing ICE from highsec we have no means of fuelling POSses in both highsec and WH space. It is true that most of the Ice currently comes from highsec mining, although removing it will not make those industrials move to NULLSEC. Specially when there is normal ore to be mined instead in the somewhat safe environment highsec is.

2. By removing high-end ores from WH space, you are effectively breaking wormholes. T3 production needs megacyte, be it in small quantities. Lack of both Ice and high-end ores in highsec will skyrocket the price, breaking the Ice and T3 industry.

I don't understand why these big changes are going to be made in areas they should not be. NullSec is already geared towards both T2 and high-end ores, be it that the industry is broken because of heavily researched T2 BPOs.
Remove them, or switch them to limited run BPCs will fix that industry (eventually) so that everybody will have a fair chance.

With PI being unbalanced and overpriced as it is, it's already not worth mining moon minerals in lowsec and NullSec. Removing Ice from highsec will only make that worse, having even a lesser need for lowsec.

It's lowsec which needs all the help!


Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:34:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: Kharvor

The basic message I read was that there should be greater rewards for players who go out into nullsec than anywhere else in game, and that all players should want to go to nullsec... "climbing higher mountains", "wanting to be friends and wanting to fight", blah blah blah.

What if you really don't want to have anything to do with nullsec? What if you enjoy running a small corporation that thrives and functions well ...



This is the same message I read into CCP Graysales blog. Simply a lack of understanding that some player simply does not want to go to null sec because the long term investment in industry needs security and stability but this is not provided by null sec.

However, what I fail to understand is why things need to be so black and white? Why cant production be allowed in both places? Why not let the player (and the market) decide where they want to be? Why this need to force certain activities like ice mining and T2 production to null sec? Or in more general terms: what is wrong and what is it that needs to be fixed?

We can ask our self some basic question here: where can we mine today (and build T2) and where is mining (and building T2) mostly done? Looking at the answer to those question should give CCP Grayscale a hint about what it is the players base wants and not wants to do. Imo, the solution to change where industrial player wants to do stuff is NOT to restrict options but to make certain options more lucrative.

This said. I think the main reasons for CCP Grayscales suggestion is based in a lack of understanding of how the game actually work. I will not go into details but the evidence for this claim is found in the followup comments made by CCP Grayscale. From these comments it is clear to me that CCP Grayscale lacks knowledge in how the game actually works and is played. As I see it, CCP Grayscale is assuming a number of faulty premises and based on these faulty premises he deduces imaginary problem that he thinks needs to be addressed and fixed.


Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:45:00 - [483]
 

I'm impressed this thread is up to 17 Pages.


I think this is an important topic CCP :P



That said...


I'd like to see Mining get a bit of a face lift or add a new mining system.

I've personally almost never mined except 3 times in EVE. The first time in the tutorial system way back when... the second time on a security op in low sec where the crazy director made all the security strap on a mining laser to increase efficiency - I'll point out we all got pushed off the field/blown up.

That may be my playstyle, but I'm not actually opposed to mining, just some of the things you have to do to be successful at it.


It seems you're mostly looking for ways to balance the current ideas for 0.0 rather than a "new thang". So, from my extensive experience in hearing miners talk while protecting them - I'd say that the best thing to do is to make the normal belts contain less "high ends" and make them focus on exploration for their ores.

Forcing them off the public belts will make them overall slightly safer from random warp ins and any miner with a left mouse button can use the directional scanner to spot probes and get to safety before they get blown up.

The natural habit is :

See Cheese
Grab Cheese

When they're seeing those high end ores just sitting out there, they're going to want to just grab them, but that leads to a greater perception of "dangerous". Combine that with the local channel changes, and you're going to end up with a ton of paranoid miners.

Making them have to go find the cheese will improve their chances. Combine that with the Exploration Brokering Idea I had in the exploration thread, and you can give them "instant" mining belts that someone else had already found for them.









Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 16:54:00 - [484]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Motivational
* Mining should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the minerals created should be contributing towards larger goals.



Says who? And who says this is not already the case?

But what the heck, let make more statements like:

"Manufacturing should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the stuff created should be contributing towards larger goals."


"Mission running should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - stuff looted and minerals from refining should be contributing towards larger goals."


"Piracy should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the stuff looted should be contributing towards larger goals."


"Gate camping should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the stuff looted should be contributing towards larger goals."

etc, etc...

Are these true as well ? If not, why should it be particular true about mining?

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:20:00 - [485]
 

Originally by: Bloodpetal
When they're seeing those high end ores just sitting out there, they're going to want to just grab them


This is not a bout short term profits Bloodpetal, this is about long term investments...

As an example: a battle ship BPO cost aprox 1 Billion to buy and it takes about 4 month in research to get a decent ME on the BPO (ME 50). It is no unusual to have BPO's for 10ths of billion being in research in a POS. (Only running a large POS in empire to do the research cost about 200m ISK in fuel per month, i.e. aprox 2.5 billion isk a year) More expensive BPO takes even longer times. All these investment needs to be paid back at some point - else there will be no more investment possible. We talking about planning that goes over periods of a year or longer her.

To do these activities an industrial player will need to have security and stability. Now, imagine your self in this position. Would you then put these investments (planned over periods of years to be paid back) in the hands of an alliance you are not sure tomorrow can defend the system you operate in?

Miranda Starborn
Beehive Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.27 17:53:00 - [486]
 

Originally by: Bloodpetal
any miner with a left mouse button can use the directional scanner to spot probes and get to safety before they get blown up.


Afaik, scan probes does not pop up on directional scanner unless you make a "hack" to be able to display them.

Anyway, what you suggest is what is done in WH mining. There exist no local as information source who is in the system and the directional scanner is the only way for you to know if some stranger are in your system or not (unless you got the system locked down). You will have to press that scan button every 2-3 second for several hours. If you like to die then you just stop pressing that scan button for a few seconds... (I know this because I used to live permanently in a wh for well over a year.)

However, this is no longer to play a game for stress relaxation but work.


Ob Kant
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:39:00 - [487]
 

Originally by: Miranda Starborn
Afaik, scan probes does not pop up on directional scanner unless you make a "hack" to be able to display them.


Yes they do. One just have to tick that little box in the Overview settings. (It does not always help though.)

banton
Posted - 2011.08.28 04:00:00 - [488]
 

Edited by: banton on 28/08/2011 04:01:38
If you want to make Mining in 0.0 a better deal either have NPC's not attack mining and indy ships or have them respawn a lot less.
In addition, stop allowing people to recycle loot to mins.

As far as removing ice from hi-sec, I suspect if you do that 3 things will happen.
1. WH space will become less populated, those guys will not move to 0.0 they have been there for the most part. They will leave the game really ****ed off.
2. POS fuel will go thru the roof in price for a while, but net at the end of the day, there will be a lot less POS towers out there. This will be a spiral down and down until they are almost out of use, and still ice mining will not be be a big thing.
3.ships will go up in price since the guys that like to make are not the ones that like to fight.

The sad truth is that you guys like to talk alot about letting the players chart their own course, but here you are determining what we all should want.
you are no better than Blizzard. May I suggest that you consider what players in hi-sec want maybe even ask them. as for homesteading, I am homesteading in WH space. But of course you want to mess that up too and the reason, so that I will experence the game the way you want me too. Sorry I think you have a flawed view of what eve is all about for many players.
You are playing with fire on these issues because they are so central to what many people get from this game. If i am right you will break the game maybe beyond repair.

Nadar Woleb
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:02:00 - [489]
 

Edited by: Nadar Woleb on 28/08/2011 19:05:28
If you made mining more lucrative than sticking a pos on a moon and watching the moon goo roll in you might achieve a bit more democracy and a lot more balanced presence in 0.0.

You may see the super cap blobs having to have mining and industrial groups present in order to feed their pvp. As opposed to out blob an opponent for x number of moons . .. profit.
Im not saying scrap moon goo but significantly elevate mining perhaps even adding high order moon minerals to belts


Edit:

The effect would be having to hold sov for folks, not for a moon . . imho.


VVVVVVV Attach Flame Here VVVVVVVVVVV :)

Sangard
Firebrands
Posted - 2011.08.28 23:33:00 - [490]
 

My ideas for mining:

  • hauling ore: we live in a sophisticated world but it's not very sophisticated when you have 20+ cargo containers around your mining barge and haul it every 2 hours. it's a lot of stupid click work (drop it, name it, next conti, pick 20+ contis up etc.). It would be great if you have something like the planetary offices or some kind of an automated hauling service like a npc hauler at your side with a large cargo bay. You have to pay for the service (kind of a investment) or/and you need some upgrades in the system to order the service. The more you pay/upgrade the bigger is your hauler and the frequenzy you can use him.


  • Better efficiency: Use upgrades and/or pay some extra isk for a mining bonus in the system. For example: You can set up a cosmic weather manipulator in your system. You can fuel it like a POS or Rorqual and the array will create some kind of a magnetic low gravity storm which boosts your mining yiel. (something like tha. It was just a simple example which came in my mind)


  • Groupcontent and bonus: atm we have just an orca or rorqual mining bonus. Thats all the groupcontant and it's boring! Give people in 0.0 a chance to build some kind of a harvesting construction within the asteroid field (some kind of a temporary mining POS without a forcefield) which can boost your mining efficiency. Every mining barge can conect to that construction and makes it more powerfull (up to a limit depending on SOV status)


  • Make it more exciting: Mining is allways doing the same thing again and again. Usually people do it semi afk or by using bots (everybody knows that and you will never fix this with the current mechanics). So point is make mining more exciting and diversified. For example: Implement special events like asteroid eruption which give you some time to evacuate the belt bevor an big explosion occurs or from time to time an asteroid normaly covert by cosmic clouds appears and gives you for a short time the orpotunity to mine some ore of good value. Or an ancient relikt hidden in an asteroid apears and can be collected with the right tools.


  • there are more ideas in my mind but it's late and I have to sleep (and sorry for all the mistakes) ...

    regards, Sangard

    ken Kalkoken
    Posted - 2011.08.28 23:49:00 - [491]
     

    if this is implemented you will see most pos in hisec close and be folded up and put into storage and a lot of if not most of the industrialist will simply stop playing the game. consider most of the alts were created for industrial and mining.I for one will stop playing if they screw this up.the only thing to do is to have all resources everywhere,both high sec and low and null sec.Most of us will never mine down there simply because it is too dangerous. not just the rats. I think a much harsher penalty is needed for gankers who attack unarmed ships without a war dec.How about clone problems when they get podded---loss of skill points

    Darth Helmat
    Posted - 2011.08.29 01:11:00 - [492]
     

    Originally by: Miranda Starborn
    Originally by: Kharvor

    Why this need to force certain activities like ice mining and T2 production to null sec?

    Imo, the solution to change where industrial player wants to do stuff is NOT to restrict options but to make certain options more lucrative.



    By pushing stuff into null/low it makes it more lucrative... one of the few tools CCP have is changing the deployment of raw materials throughout eve.

    The problem with ice is that its unlimited in supply.... changing that would make for some interesting high sec choke points.


    Crexa
    Star Mandate
    Posted - 2011.08.29 01:55:00 - [493]
     

    Ship construction

    T1: 100% ore mined minerals
    T2: 50% ore mined minerals, 50% moon goo
    T3: 33% ore mined minerals 33% moon goo 33% WH gas

    A simple way to increase the need for minerals. Increase demand not supply.

    Vincent Athena
    Posted - 2011.08.29 03:51:00 - [494]
     

    It occured to me there is a way to address two problems with null mining. One is that its easier to get minerals by hauling in big guns and reprocess them, and the other is an oversupply of the 3 highest end minerals.

    The solution is to give up on the 1 to 4 to 16 to 64.. and so on ratio of mineral requirements for eve industry. (For those who do not know, eve was originally set up so that, averaged over everything being made, for every unit of Morphite needed, 4 units of Megacyte will be needed, and 16 of Zydrene, and so on. Supply was set up to meet this sort of average demand.) The issue being the supply in w-space threw this off, along with miners in null preferentially going after the higher end ores.

    Fix: make big guns need more high end and much less low end minerals. The effect is the cost of making the gun is about the same, the volume of minerals needed drops to about the same as the gun volume, and the demand for the high ends increases, balancing the current supply.


    catinboots
    Minmatar
    Vintage heavy industries
    Posted - 2011.08.29 06:40:00 - [495]
     

    Originally by: Kharvor
    Originally by: Rain Crowe
    I think ppl are jumping the gun a bit. Here is the dev blog post...

    Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game.

    No where do they say they are taking ice out of hi-sec. They quite clearly state that "some" of the ices will only be available in null. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the way it is now. Some does not equal all ppl.


    Actually, no one is "jumping the gun" here. You left out a pretty BIG part of the paragraph you're quoting from:


    * Sole source of ice and high-end minerals

    That's the first bullet point in the section you quoted. The dev blog cleary tells us that this is a nullsec buff, and a "risk vs reward" plan to change the game dynamics away from high profits in hisec to higher profits and more participation in nullsec.

    There's a fair bit of guessing here, but the bottom line is that we need to voice our objections and concerns NOW, and not later on after every ice belt is gone from hisec and we all have to quit the game or kiss ass to a nullsec alliance. CCP has already demonstrated their inability to accurately gauge their subscriber in game priorities and their willingness to screw with game mechanics until something no longer works.

    I'm sorry, but many simply are not content to leave the game we love in the hands of clueless devs pandering to nullsec alliances (which many of them are a part of).



    I agree with this , althou moving all ice to null sec is just a idea ; it it the worse idea ever, making nullsec 99% selfsufficient is even a worse idea and it is indeed better we reject the idea now then letting ccp change it and then having to go thru hundreds of mega whine and rage threads about itbefore they change it back again
    Improving nullsec mining and industry yes i am all for that , but i am afraid the current nullsec alliance pvp only mentallity need to change aswell
    A good start would be making moongoo deplete after a random time ( few months )then another random moon becomes goo rich . this probably will do more as a incentive to start nullsec mining again then anything else

    @ ccp DO NOT remove ice from highsec you not only will screw up ALL research in high sec you will destroy many WH dwellers dream with just that one act

    let us all hope CCP take notice of these feedbacks


    xUnlimitedx
    Posted - 2011.08.29 08:42:00 - [496]
     

    In my opionion is only ice in 0.0 big ****

    Ingvar Angst
    Amarr
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    Talocan United
    Posted - 2011.08.29 15:17:00 - [497]
     

    Originally by: Crexa
    Ship construction

    T1: 100% ore mined minerals
    T2: 50% ore mined minerals, 50% moon goo
    T3: 33% ore mined minerals 33% moon goo 33% WH gas

    A simple way to increase the need for minerals. Increase demand not supply.


    Eh... since you're not familiar with T3 construction apparently, please refrain from adding horrible input.

    Moon goo in holes. lol

    Vanessa Vansen
    Posted - 2011.08.29 20:21:00 - [498]
     

    Edited by: Vanessa Vansen on 29/08/2011 20:21:59
    2 (more) cents ...

    ok, some people suggest to remove the loot within NPC wrecks since it provides minerals.
    It's also possible to go the other way round, i.e. replace them by BPC drops.
    So instead of e.g. Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets you would get a bpc for that.
    Then you would either have to buy or build a 100mn microwarp to get the meta item.

    In the end, you'll have less minerals on the market but a higher demand for them.

    edit: I don't know if that would interfere with invention

    Narisa Bithon
    Caldari
    The Motley Crew Reborn
    Posted - 2011.08.29 21:43:00 - [499]
     

    Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 29/08/2011 21:43:33
    if ice belts get moved out to low/null sec only then make hidden ice belts that contain ice roids that give ALL types of isotopes not just the regional type.

    Crexa
    Star Mandate
    Posted - 2011.08.29 22:43:00 - [500]
     

    Edited by: Crexa on 29/08/2011 22:57:51
    Originally by: Ingvar Angst
    Originally by: Crexa
    Ship construction

    T1: 100% ore mined minerals
    T2: 50% ore mined minerals, 50% moon goo
    T3: 33% ore mined minerals 33% moon goo 33% WH gas

    A simple way to increase the need for minerals. Increase demand not supply.


    Eh... since you're not familiar with T3 construction apparently, please refrain from adding horrible input.

    Moon goo in holes. lol


    I'm perfectly familiar with T3 construction in all its over complicated, time sink, pita ways. I have constructed T3 ships in WH and found it a waste of time, when I can just sell all the raw materials to obvious small picture seers, such as yourself.

    I now spend more time making isk grinding the sites vs. wasting time trying to make "extra" isk producing ships. In the time it takes to run around gathering all the crap needed to produce a T3, I can run sites and make the isk to just buy the ship and subs.

    What I was suggesting was a pattern by which minerals can be more throughly integrated into construction of all Tiers. Not the pathetic amounts that are used now. Ie. the T1 ship used in T2 construction and the combination of tiny amounts to make polys for T3.

    I was not suggesting that Moon goo be found in WH space. Rather a redistribution of its use, especially if you think ahead to T3 ships of other class sizes!

    Nerfing anything is stupid, it is better to bring that which is lacking up to that which is considered overpowered. In this case blaming salvage, drone poo, or wh mining for all of the mining industries woes is stupid. Increase the demand. In small increments if you must but it is easier to adjust the amounts needed than wrecking someones gameplay by reducing the rewards of that gameplay. I know i wouldn't even bother with ship salvage in missions if there was nothing to gain by it. So people will just stop doing it. Why would you want that?


    Lady Mirth
    Minmatar
    Dalek Tactical Industries
    Posted - 2011.08.30 07:34:00 - [501]
     

    Moving ice to low/null sec would roll all ice based construction/applications to a dead stop as griefers and pirates would have a field day with a 24/7 Mackageddon taking out ice miners that can't move or they waste the entire cycle. If ice mining would drop by 75% how would the effects of this chain react? How many corps have ice stockpiles to sustain themselves until they find and secure new low sec ice sites?

    This would be a excellent fiasco to watch unless it is your corp that needs the ice

    catinboots
    Minmatar
    Vintage heavy industries
    Posted - 2011.08.30 08:40:00 - [502]
     

    after reading all these post in the mining section and industry feed backi am startingto wonder why the sudden these drastic ideas of changing /upbeefing nullsec so dramaticly
    It isobvious or atleast itis to most of us that making null sec 99% selfsufficient is a bad idea and nerfing highsec industry to death will probably result ina large portion of the playerbase to stop playing all together
    In my opinion the fault of how nullsec industry/ mining is insuch a bad state is both ccp earlier introduction of certain gamemechanics and tge just plain ugly childish attitude from the large nullsec alliances
    I admire the people who are out there renting / getting extorded and who are trying to making a living mining but isit really worth all the hassle and blackmailing you have to suffer
    ccp greyscale one question do. You want this game to succeed or are you a goon and only out to destroy the game for everybody else
    aslong there isn t a mentallity change in these big alliances and aslong. They have a easy income with moongoo and ratting bots no matter how you buff nullsec and nerfi high sec it will not attract more people to null sec
    Most highsec dwellers see these alliances as a bunch of greedy idiots who think it is their game and everbody else should play it their way

    This post. Could have been posted in one of the other feedbacks but i don t care
    Nerfing highsec mining in favour of buffing nullsec mining which nobody except a few brave souls is i terested in is a bad idea don t do it

    xanaxred
    Amarr
    Crimson Infamy
    Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
    Posted - 2011.08.30 11:05:00 - [503]
     

    Originally by: Narisa Bithon
    Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 29/08/2011 21:43:33
    if ice belts get moved out to low/null sec only then make hidden ice belts that contain ice roids that give ALL types of isotopes not just the regional type.


    How sure about this are you?

    Ingvar Angst
    Amarr
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    Talocan United
    Posted - 2011.08.30 12:48:00 - [504]
     

    Originally by: Crexa
    Ship construction

    T1: 100% ore mined minerals
    T2: 50% ore mined minerals, 50% moon goo
    T3: 33% ore mined minerals 33% moon goo 33% WH gas

    ...
    I was not suggesting that Moon goo be found in WH space. Rather a redistribution of its use, especially if you think ahead to T3 ships of other class sizes!


    A little contradictory here. Either you would need goo in holes, or you'd need to import goo products into holes for T3, making T3 construction partially dependant on null sec. Either way, no thanks... T3 is fine, no need to screw it up.

    Thomas Turnpoint
    Posted - 2011.08.30 19:46:00 - [505]
     

    Are there any solid reasons for moving ice to null-sec only, outside of "more targets" and "more money for alliances"?

    Seems to me there are a lot more reasons to *not* move it.

    Forcing players to Null-sec won't work. Among the people I know in-game who are wanting to move out of high-sec, they are all looking at moving to wormhole space. The forums aren't the only place where null-sec has a reputation of being run by *******s, and while there are a number of people who *want* to move out of high-sec, they are looking at wormholes for a reason.

    "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" has not worked so far with null-sec, so CCP is going to take the "force the horse's head into the water, then it will drink." mindset. It might look like it's working for a bit, but all that kicking and squirming isn't because the horse is having fun.


    Lugues Slive
    Posted - 2011.08.31 01:53:00 - [506]
     

    So the four topics listed in the original blogs are making nullsec mining lucrative, motivational, investable, and the sole source of ice and high-end minerals.

    Lucrative: Nullsec is already lucrative compared to empire. Mining in general is not lucrative because of alternative sources of of minerals. I blame rogue drones and mission runners. A level 4 mission can produce almost as much money in reprocessed loot as solo empire mining can. By removing rogue drone compounds and replacing them with alternative money equivalents such as better salvage, tags, or possibly research material; and by reducing the loot dropped during missions, the source of minerals will shift back to miners, making the job more lucrative.

    Motivational: I don't understand this concept, any job is motivational. Mining creates money, materials for manufacturing, and my favorite motivation is the destruction of an entire belt in a night.

    Investable: Nullsec mining already requires a substantial investment to make it as profitable as empire mining. A decent infrastructure is required to get the minerals from the belt to the sales floor in a safe and timely manner. Anyone living in nullsec would need to invest in some source of mining in order to support their manufacturing business.

    Soul source of Ice and High-End Mins: I don't think all ice should be moved, but significantly reduce what can be found and where. As for high-end minerals, depending on what you consider high-end, this is already the case.

    I think that the lucrative changes are the only thing that needs to change. By removing the excess sources of minerals, the price for high-end minerals will go back up, which will make the ore exclusive to nullsec more valuable and cause more miners to be motivated to move out to nullsec.

    I also think that a combat oriented mining ship is required. Most combat ships are ill suited for mining and most mining ships are ill suited for mining. I am not suggesting a super miner, but something with T2 defense while having mining barge/osprey mining capability. Think Marauder with mining bonus instead of damage bonus.

    Vil Mahona
    Posted - 2011.08.31 03:11:00 - [507]
     

    Most folks are correct that we really don't need much of a boost to 0.0 to encourage mining. The real problem for 0.0 is the lack of security for mining/industrial folks. Lets face it. The PvP crowd looks down on the miners/industrialist players and think of them as mostly servants and target to harass. They also have the we'll tolerate you as long as you give us what we need, but don't expect anything from us attitude.

    1: As has been mentioned, Mining needs to be the sole source of minerals. No more module drops or drone compounds. replace with bpc/tags to manfacture the meta items or some such deal like that. whole new area of production for the industrial side as a bonus.

    2: With what ever changes to SOV that happen, mining needs to play a major factor in being able to have SOV. Main idea that the higher level of SOV require high level of mining to have. So if you want to build Super Caps then you must make the mining the key to that instead of just time holding SOV. SOV 1 should be easy and no real requirements other than TCU or whatever. Level 2 to 5 needs to be tied into the Mining/Industrial side so that there is a major incentive for any alliance to be balanced and for the PvP crowd to want to protect the miners while they work. This way a pure PvP Alliance can have SOV but will never be able to build Supers but a more balanced alliance with PvP and Miners/Industrialists will be able to build.

    3: Break the stranglehold of the Alliances on the Moon Goo. switch to PI format so that it's the individuals who are getting the Moon Products and turning those into higher level products. Fine to use POS for reactions and such but don't make it a hard complecated process.

    4: To reduce the cherry picking of the ABC's, Move all the roid belts to Grav sites and then no re-spawning of the belt till it's all mined, so make us miners mine the entire belt to cause it to re-spawn. This will also work in high sec to help reduce the cherry picking of ores there. This does mean that we no longer need the current upgraded belts you get by installing the upgrades in the I-HUB. Just re-task those upgrades into making the Regular scanned out belts better. At highest level all the roids in the belts are say the +10% roids or could go even higher percentage. Just have to tweak the numbers.

    5: Security, the real problem of 0.0 for miners/industrialists. We need the PvP types to provide security and need a solid mechanism to give them incentive to do so. Think my idea on tying the higher levels of SOV to Mining will solve part of this issue. Possible some NPC courier mechanism to allow the miner/industrialist to get their stuff out of harms way if things go bad would be a good idea. We tend to not be able to fit all our assets into a carrier or 1 jump freighter like a lot of the PvP guys are able to do. Doesn't have to be free but shouldn't over expensive of an isk sink either. very easy for a miner/industrialist to get 10's of billions in assets accumulated and tough to put that at risk in 0.0 currently due to the security issues.


    xanaxred
    Amarr
    Crimson Infamy
    Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
    Posted - 2011.08.31 06:41:00 - [508]
     

    Originally by: Vil Mahona
    Most folks are correct that we really don't need much of a boost to 0.0 to encourage mining. The real problem for 0.0 is the lack of security for mining/industrial folks. Lets face it. The PvP crowd looks down on the miners/industrialist players and think of them as mostly servants and target to harass. They also have the we'll tolerate you as long as you give us what we need, but don't expect anything from us attitude.

    1: As has been mentioned, Mining needs to be the sole source of minerals. No more module drops or drone compounds. replace with bpc/tags to manfacture the meta items or some such deal like that. whole new area of production for the industrial side as a bonus.

    2: With what ever changes to SOV that happen, mining needs to play a major factor in being able to have SOV. Main idea that the higher level of SOV require high level of mining to have. So if you want to build Super Caps then you must make the mining the key to that instead of just time holding SOV. SOV 1 should be easy and no real requirements other than TCU or whatever. Level 2 to 5 needs to be tied into the Mining/Industrial side so that there is a major incentive for any alliance to be balanced and for the PvP crowd to want to protect the miners while they work. This way a pure PvP Alliance can have SOV but will never be able to build Supers but a more balanced alliance with PvP and Miners/Industrialists will be able to build.

    3: Break the stranglehold of the Alliances on the Moon Goo. switch to PI format so that it's the individuals who are getting the Moon Products and turning those into higher level products. Fine to use POS for reactions and such but don't make it a hard complecated process.

    4: To reduce the cherry picking of the ABC's, Move all the roid belts to Grav sites and then no re-spawning of the belt till it's all mined, so make us miners mine the entire belt to cause it to re-spawn. This will also work in high sec to help reduce the cherry picking of ores there. This does mean that we no longer need the current upgraded belts you get by installing the upgrades in the I-HUB. Just re-task those upgrades into making the Regular scanned out belts better. At highest level all the roids in the belts are say the +10% roids or could go even higher percentage. Just have to tweak the numbers.

    5: Security, the real problem of 0.0 for miners/industrialists. We need the PvP types to provide security and need a solid mechanism to give them incentive to do so. Think my idea on tying the higher levels of SOV to Mining will solve part of this issue. Possible some NPC courier mechanism to allow the miner/industrialist to get their stuff out of harms way if things go bad would be a good idea. We tend to not be able to fit all our assets into a carrier or 1 jump freighter like a lot of the PvP guys are able to do. Doesn't have to be free but shouldn't over expensive of an isk sink either. very easy for a miner/industrialist to get 10's of billions in assets accumulated and tough to put that at risk in 0.0 currently due to the security issues.




    This is true, low sec is the PVPer domain and miners etc are often seen as low of the lowest form of eve player. I would love to see more of a place for mining in low sec. Maybe make mining the sole source of large quantities of minerals and rare ores etc, perhaps this would make mining a little more of a respected path to go down and make players more willing to integrate mining as a fundamental part of their corporation etc

    Rykuss
    Gallente
    Posted - 2011.08.31 17:30:00 - [509]
     

    Originally by: Vil Mahona
    Most folks are correct that we really don't need much of a boost to 0.0 to encourage mining. The real problem for 0.0 is the lack of security for mining/industrial folks. Lets face it. The PvP crowd looks down on the miners/industrialist players and think of them as mostly servants and target to harass. They also have the we'll tolerate you as long as you give us what we need, but don't expect anything from us attitude.

    1: As has been mentioned, Mining needs to be the sole source of minerals. No more module drops or drone compounds. replace with bpc/tags to manfacture the meta items or some such deal like that. whole new area of production for the industrial side as a bonus.

    2: With what ever changes to SOV that happen, mining needs to play a major factor in being able to have SOV. Main idea that the higher level of SOV require high level of mining to have. So if you want to build Super Caps then you must make the mining the key to that instead of just time holding SOV. SOV 1 should be easy and no real requirements other than TCU or whatever. Level 2 to 5 needs to be tied into the Mining/Industrial side so that there is a major incentive for any alliance to be balanced and for the PvP crowd to want to protect the miners while they work. This way a pure PvP Alliance can have SOV but will never be able to build Supers but a more balanced alliance with PvP and Miners/Industrialists will be able to build.

    3: Break the stranglehold of the Alliances on the Moon Goo. switch to PI format so that it's the individuals who are getting the Moon Products and turning those into higher level products. Fine to use POS for reactions and such but don't make it a hard complecated process.

    4: To reduce the cherry picking of the ABC's, Move all the roid belts to Grav sites and then no re-spawning of the belt till it's all mined, so make us miners mine the entire belt to cause it to re-spawn. This will also work in high sec to help reduce the cherry picking of ores there. This does mean that we no longer need the current upgraded belts you get by installing the upgrades in the I-HUB. Just re-task those upgrades into making the Regular scanned out belts better. At highest level all the roids in the belts are say the +10% roids or could go even higher percentage. Just have to tweak the numbers.

    5: Security, the real problem of 0.0 for miners/industrialists. We need the PvP types to provide security and need a solid mechanism to give them incentive to do so. Think my idea on tying the higher levels of SOV to Mining will solve part of this issue. Possible some NPC courier mechanism to allow the miner/industrialist to get their stuff out of harms way if things go bad would be a good idea. We tend to not be able to fit all our assets into a carrier or 1 jump freighter like a lot of the PvP guys are able to do. Doesn't have to be free but shouldn't over expensive of an isk sink either. very easy for a miner/industrialist to get 10's of billions in assets accumulated and tough to put that at risk in 0.0 currently due to the security issues.




    Great post! I hope CCP are actually reading this thread and see this post. Currently there is no reason for miners and industrialists to go there. We aren't wanted or needed with the current mechanics. Null alliances and players need to own some of the blame, CCP did make it viable to play the game this way and should fix it but there is nothing preventing us from coming out there but the current residents. Until CCP actually address the problem, it will remain this way. Continually punishing industrialists and taking away from us is only frustrating us to the point of leaving the game.

    Amassing the wealth of empires and holding space solely by pew pew'ing is "fun" and sells better than actually having to maintain said empire. I don't actually look for this to be fixed because of that. CCP need to fix the issue or tell null to HTFU.

    Ingvar Angst
    Amarr
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    Talocan United
    Posted - 2011.08.31 17:52:00 - [510]
     

    Of course... this brings up the counter point... it's null sec. It's supposed to be hazardous, not secure. So where do you draw the line regarding security and making null softer than it already is?

    That may be a debate for a different thread though.


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