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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 02:19:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 23/08/2011 02:20:44
Eh just let Rorquals fit "Capital Strip Miners" instead of this "T3" stuff, problem solved. By no means allow any nextgen mining ship in highsec though.


Still the best buff to 0.0 mining and industry though would be banning NPC corps.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.23 02:39:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Eh just let Rorquals fit "Capital Strip Miners" instead of this "T3" stuff, problem solved. By no means allow any nextgen mining ship in highsec though.


1. T3 mining should not be better than a Hulk but it should be more survivable.
2. Next-gen equipment because only trash ore should be left in high sec and real miners would move to low sec and beyond.
3. Strip mine with a Rorqual in the belt? Must be some pretty deep blue, fuzzy carebear null sec.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:08:00 - [393]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 23/08/2011 03:11:31

Originally by: Rees Noturana
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Eh just let Rorquals fit "Capital Strip Miners" instead of this "T3" stuff, problem solved. By no means allow any nextgen mining ship in highsec though.


1. T3 mining should not be better than a Hulk but it should be more survivable.
2. Next-gen equipment because only trash ore should be left in high sec and real miners would move to low sec and beyond.
3. Strip mine with a Rorqual in the belt? Must be some pretty deep blue, fuzzy carebear null sec.

1a: A Rorqual is much more survivable then a Hulk. 1b: Making a "more survivable mining ship" is pointless because the main barrier keeping out highsec players isn't dead hulks, it's the time and thus profit lost dealing with nullsec issues, like CTAs and fleets and pulling one's weight in general instead of mining.
2: They have trash ore now, but a core component of EVE manufacturing involves trash ore, something hisec has cornered thanks to its riskfree play. The introduction of a T3 mining ship is just going to populate highsec with T3 barges instead of T2 and not change anything. A low/null/wh-exclusive mining ship that mines more would at least begin to provide a justification to mining low-ends in null.
3: They have a drone regions equivalent of a mining Rorqual already. It's called a "carrier" and it's doing quite well. Also, this gets Rorquals located in places other then POSs.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:12:00 - [394]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Still the best buff to 0.0 mining and industry though would be banning NPC corps.


Wouldn't solve anything, but go ahead...Rolling Eyes

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:16:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Still the best buff to 0.0 mining and industry though would be banning NPC corps.


Wouldn't solve anything, but go ahead...Rolling Eyes
Why would a 0.0 manufacturer buy trit from alliance members who have heavy expenses, when he can jump freighter in compressed NPC corp-mined trit, using his NPC Corp alt?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:23:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Still the best buff to 0.0 mining and industry though would be banning NPC corps.


Wouldn't solve anything, but go ahead...Rolling Eyes
Why would a 0.0 manufacturer buy trit from alliance members who have heavy expenses, when he can jump freighter in compressed NPC corp-mined trit, using his NPC Corp alt?

Why would he buy 0.0 mined trit, when he can buy Hi-Sec mined trit? Just because there is an NPC corp involved has little to nothing to do with where trit is mined and everything to do with what 0.0 dwellers (as a whole) think is worth doing. Mining trit is seen as wasting time. Has nothing to do with npc corps.

I dunno, sounds like your asking more for a nerf to jump freighters.

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:24:00 - [397]
 

a long time ago there was talk of fighter size mining bots.

I would love to see a carrier based capital mining ship with fighter sized drones able to mine amazing amounts of empire based ore in null sec. But stupidly not effective vs the null sec ores

would a Tech 2 Carrier work in this case- only the mega rich miners could afford to build.

this way the empire ores can be in supply to ensure null sec stays self relyant. And also gives another capital ship in Null sec for roaming gangs to hunt down.

This will leave the tech 2 mining barges strong with their specialties.

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:33:00 - [398]
 

I play eve for the social amount of it and really don't mine to mine the empire or for my corp. Just mining in the belts is too risky. I would love to be able to scan down some hidden empire or belts in Null sec so when I have a red in system I have a chance to get out while he scans my belt down before he jumps me..

as it sits now we just min in high end belts flipping them over and over again. resulting in more Null sec ore than I know what to do with.

I know there is the process of compressing etc. but I would like to be able to do the build a ships with components collected with in 100AU. be more Null sec self seficient.(sp)

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:33:00 - [399]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 23/08/2011 03:35:11
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Why would he buy 0.0 mined trit, when he can buy Hi-Sec mined trit? Just because there is an NPC corp involved has little to nothing to do with where trit is mined and everything to do with what 0.0 dwellers (as a whole) think is worth doing. Mining trit is seen as wasting time. Has nothing to do with npc corps.

I dunno, sounds like your asking more for a nerf to jump freighters.
Banning NPC corps hampers the endless devaluation of minerals and trit/pye specifically by giving highsec players recourse into eliminating competition instead of only being able to undercut them, allows a counter to the 0.0 NPC jump freighter alt by letting rival nullsec powers and pirate corps attempt to gank known JF suppliers and makes nullsec (and others) more alluring to since highsec would no longer be 100% PVP-free.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:34:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 19/08/2011 18:00:34
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 19/08/2011 17:58:57
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It turns out that if my understanding of T3 production is correct and there's ~200 units of megacyte in each T3 ship, then the amount of mega used to make T3 ships over the period I'm looking at is effectively negligible (it's like four orders of magnitude lower than the amount mined in w-space over that period).

That said, I'm slightly less worried about the current situation than I was, and by the sounds of it normalizing the mineral amounts more makes everyone pretty happy and resolves most of our concerns.

(Also for anyone who's not following we're leaning towards just making ice in empire non-infinite rather than removing it, but I realize most people coming in to post aren't actually reading the thread first, I just wanted to say this so people couldn't say we hadn't said it.)


If your using T3 hulls produced in wormholes number, that number will be off. People react gas to polymers not only for a small increase in profit but also transport, it reduces the volume considerably and I can know people who just export polymers everyday to highsec without making T3s themselves because of the investment costs beyond just reactions. Also other minerals are used such as Zydrine. But yea no need to argue if it's just a nerf/normalization rather than a removal.


Nope, that's based on global T3 builds over a ~4 month period.


Might be off a little then? The market could have more supply in polymers than T3s being built, but doesn't really matter tbh.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:37:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Gevlin
I play eve for the social amount of it and really don't mine to mine the empire or for my corp. Just mining in the belts is too risky. I would love to be able to scan down some hidden empire or belts in Null sec so when I have a red in system I have a chance to get out while he scans my belt down before he jumps me..

as it sits now we just min in high end belts flipping them over and over again. resulting in more Null sec ore than I know what to do with.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ore_Prospecting_Array_1

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:40:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Gevlin
a long time ago there was talk of fighter size mining bots.

I would love to see a carrier based capital mining ship with fighter sized drones able to mine amazing amounts of empire based ore in null sec. But stupidly not effective vs the null sec ores

would a Tech 2 Carrier work in this case- only the mega rich miners could afford to build.

this way the empire ores can be in supply to ensure null sec stays self relyant. And also gives another capital ship in Null sec for roaming gangs to hunt down.

This will leave the tech 2 mining barges strong with their specialties.


Wouldn't a 'mining carrier' pilot just focus on the high end ores like is done now and drive down the value of the high ends?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:57:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 23/08/2011 03:35:11
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Why would he buy 0.0 mined trit, when he can buy Hi-Sec mined trit? Just because there is an NPC corp involved has little to nothing to do with where trit is mined and everything to do with what 0.0 dwellers (as a whole) think is worth doing. Mining trit is seen as wasting time. Has nothing to do with npc corps.

I dunno, sounds like your asking more for a nerf to jump freighters.
Banning NPC corps hampers the endless devaluation of minerals and trit/pye specifically by giving highsec players recourse into eliminating competition instead of only being able to undercut them, allows a counter to the 0.0 NPC jump freighter alt by letting rival nullsec powers and pirate corps attempt to gank known JF suppliers and makes nullsec (and others) more alluring to since highsec would no longer be 100% PVP-free.


ugh, i don't even know where to start... Suicide ganks are the only really viable method of attacking an enemy in hi-sec, because the war-decs are so easily avoided. Banning npc corps won't change that. If there is a "known" JF alt in Hi-Sec, the only way to get to him (reliably) is to suicide it. Also - the idea of hi-sec being "100% pvp-free" is as erroneous as "all of 0.0 is napped up and *safe*".

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.08.23 03:59:00 - [404]
 

I would like to see the change in mechanics - in null sec you can **** a larger quantity of anything in Null sec, You are able to bring out the bigger ships. Capital Mining ships where a big boy can mine massive low end ores and the more t2 ships are able to strip the high end stuff.

But make refining the large quantities highly waste full as in the while west we don't have the minimum wage laborers willing to work to squeeze the last ounce of mineral out of every ore. Make the Out posts un able to get perfect refining, Closer to that of POSes.

This will spure on a secondary market of people who will buy ore, compress it and fly it down to empire to refine and then fly them back out to null sec. and make some isk for their time. This should limit the old refine component market that has been a plagued eve for some time with people flying armor plats out empire to convert into empire base minerals.

Corazani
Posted - 2011.08.23 04:15:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Rees Noturana

Wouldn't a 'mining crrier' pilot just focus on the high end ores like is done now and drive down the value of the high ends?


Depending on how the mechanics were worked, not really. As it stands, mining drones don't have enough harvest volume to actually mine the top shelf ores. Harvester and Mining Drone II's are the only one's big enough to manage it, and those are still only 1 unit/minute.

To make a "Mining Fighter" effective all that would likely be needed would be to give the "Mining Carrier" a bonus to cycle time and flight speed for the "fighters." Low harvest volume would mean they aren't that good are doing the big stuff, but faster time and movement would mean they effectively add to the volume that is harvestable.

***With pretty good bonuses you can get Strip Miner I times down to what... around 130s/cycle and around 1500-ish m^3? (I'm thinking Orca, not Rorqual; can't remember what the Rorq pulled things down to the last time I worked with one). So that means about 15,000 units of Veld or ~94 of ABCs. So even if you put a full, lets say 10 "Fighters" on a rock, with a harvest volume of 16m^3 and a cycle time of... 30 seconds. Add in another... 10 seconds of flight time so the "Carrier" isn't nestled within bumping distance of the asteroids, that means the drones would be able to pull in approx 150 units of ABCs in a 10 minute time, vs 225,000 units of Veld (and around 1200-1300-ish ABCs for a Hulk in that time). Assuming a really fat Veld Rock with that kind of volume in it, the "Carrier" is mining roughly as quickly as a Hulk could (without really pimped bonuses like from a Rorq, crystals, etc...; just an orca).


***Disclaimer: many numbers pulled from spotty memory or thin air, and I swear I didn't pre-plan how closely the comparison came down in terms of time. I grabbed numbers as I worked through that would make the math simple, and they happened to line up nicely.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.23 04:24:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

ugh, i don't even know where to start... Suicide ganks are the only really viable method of attacking an enemy in hi-sec...

... Also - the idea of hi-sec being "100% pvp-free" is as erroneous as "all of 0.0 is napped up and *safe*".

lol

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.23 06:46:00 - [407]
 

Truth is so longitischeaper and easier for the large alliances tobuy their low endminerals in high sec, not much will change inthe miningindustry side of null sec
The majority of nullsec players are pvp ers whos view onindustry is coldhearted at best
You may buff null sec mining so hard that mentallity will not change
Unless you nerf theincomefrom ratting and moongoo mining and industry will always be the unwanted child of nullsec

About t3 mining barge
Designing a new ship takes too long. So why not 2 new t3 subsystems that fit on the exsisting t3 hulls one industrial module that replaces the offensive module with 4 high slots 3 for stripminers and 1 auxillery highslot
Andanother subsystem that replaces the Manouvering subsystem with. A extended cargo bay and enough drone space for 5 med drones or 10 lights
As a bonus it has 7, 5 bonus to mining yield per lvl and the survivebility of a t 3 cruiser while notoutmining the venerable hulk

My solution make large alliances income less dependable on moongoo make it depletable
Moongoodepletes afterafewmonths and then another random moon becomes rich in moongoo

Ice , removing icecompletly from high sec is a even worse ideathan thegold ammo i am not going to repeat what other posters said about removing ice mining. They all have a valid point

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:36:00 - [408]
 

This whole t3 mining thing is silly. A little bit of extra EHP is not going to save your mining ship when it gets jumped.


catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:44:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
This whole t3 mining thing is silly. A little bit of extra EHP is not going to save your mining ship when it gets jumped.




True it will not protect you against pvp but you will be able to tank the nulsec belt rats making it more efficient mining in nullsec without having to sacrifice up to 40% of your yield to protect against belt rats

Geormike Deninard
Posted - 2011.08.23 09:44:00 - [410]
 

Well actually, the introduction of a T3 miner can be quite good, Imagine it as a ship that with sacrificing defence it can outmine (but not much more than) a hulk, while by sacrificing mining yeild can outtank a T2 fitted T1 cruiser. Also, by maybe colonizing asteroids in a PI like fashion you cna extract pure minerals, but the cost for this will be gigantic, and the asteroid will someday deplate, and so the hub will need to be replaced. Cost for a replacement will be also big, leading to the choice of the asteroid being tough.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:42:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Geormike Deninard
Well actually, the introduction of a T3 miner can be quite good, Imagine it as a ship that with sacrificing defence it can outmine (but not much more than) a hulk, while by sacrificing mining yeild can outtank a T2 fitted T1 cruiser. Also, by maybe colonizing asteroids in a PI like fashion you cna extract pure minerals, but the cost for this will be gigantic, and the asteroid will someday deplate, and so the hub will need to be replaced. Cost for a replacement will be also big, leading to the choice of the asteroid being tough.


Umm just some industrial subsystems that fits on the exsisting t 3 hulls will be enough , no need to make it more complex by adding awhole new class of ships

Niohkarla
Caldari
DucKtape Unlimited
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:56:00 - [412]
 

Well create a new class but use the tactical cruiser model just 3-5time bigger and some qucik change to the skin.

we could also have some racial bonus to them =P

hectiQ
Square Dimensions
Quantum Cookies
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:58:00 - [413]
 

Quote:

Motivational

Mining should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the minerals created should be contributing towards larger goals.




This may be far-fetched and difficult to implement; The fleet commander selects a blueprint for an item or ship and it will appear visually for everyone in the fleet in a seperate window. Showing progress bars on how much tritanium, pyerite, etc. is already filled. If twice the amount if filled it will be marked with a '2'. This way the goals for mining should be clearly visible for everyone taking part.
It's motivating to see a progress bar for your goal and satisfactional when the progress bar is at 100% for all mineral types.

Keep in mind this is just an idea, feel free to talk about it.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:08:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
This whole t3 mining thing is silly. A little bit of extra EHP is not going to save your mining ship when it gets jumped


The next gen mining vehicle, T3 or not, should be about agility and not about brute force tanking. I'm not looking at joining a large alliance. You have the Rorqual and Hulk for that. I'm thinking about ninja mining low sec and NPC null sec. Maybe even someone else's backyard in regular 0.0 if smallholdings come around.

I can sit in a belt all day devouring ore but I would lose my mind. That wouldn't change in Querious or wherever. I have maxed my Hulk skills and have another that is maxed at Mining Director in an Orca and has the skills for a Rorqual. I don't use them for that. I'd rather do exploration and harvest whatever I find and move on to the next site. If I'm dodging pirates or alliance fleets then its even better.

I just can't be very stealthy in a Hulk.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:10:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: hectiQ
Quote:

Motivational

Mining should be something that you do because you know you're achieving something, not just because it makes you money - the minerals created should be contributing towards larger goals.




This may be far-fetched and difficult to implement; The fleet commander selects a blueprint for an item or ship and it will appear visually for everyone in the fleet in a seperate window. Showing progress bars on how much tritanium, pyerite, etc. is already filled. If twice the amount if filled it will be marked with a '2'. This way the goals for mining should be clearly visible for everyone taking part.
It's motivating to see a progress bar for your goal and satisfactional when the progress bar is at 100% for all mineral types.

Keep in mind this is just an idea, feel free to talk about it.


I like the idea or instead put in the amount and sort minerals the ops is after ,
I really like the idea

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:23:00 - [416]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 23/08/2011 17:54:37
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 23/08/2011 17:48:28
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).


Can you determine how much of this is exported out of w-space?

Quote:

On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.


You are making an assumption that a pilot in a covetor is new. Many experienced pilots use covetors because 1) they expect to lose it & 2) it's cheaper than a hulk.

From discussions I've had with others in w-space, the inexperienced w-space miner uses a hulk because more production is better and is the typical hisec mentality. The experienced w-space miner decides to use a covetor because mining in w-space is more dangerous, they expect to lose their mining ships and they determine that the loss of production capabilities of a covetor is offset by its more affordable replacement costs. You'll need to correlate character ages with those kills if you really want to know if it's a new pilot or experienced pilot. But ultimately in w-space a piloted covetor does != new pilot.

In k-space the general idea towards mining is to move from frigate, to cruiser, to retriever, to hulk, skipping everything inbetween the retriever and hulk. The reason for this is because training for a hulk takes about 3 more days than a covetor. So, the advice given to me many moons ago when I was starting my eve-life was to skip everything else and shoot for the hulk. In many cases, people piloting hulks are naive of the game. While you may not consider them new pilots, in reality, most everyone would consider a miner who just earned his wings to fly a hulk a complete noob. You definitely need to rethink your ideas about how the game works, Greyscale.

W-space is a different place with different rules and few specific mechanisms with which to protect one's self. Lacking protection the next best decision is to mitigate losses. Hence, experienced pilots flying covetors.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:53:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Still the best buff to 0.0 mining and industry though would be banning NPC corps.


Wouldn't solve anything, but go ahead...Rolling Eyes
Why would a 0.0 manufacturer buy trit from alliance members who have heavy expenses, when he can jump freighter in compressed NPC corp-mined trit, using his NPC Corp alt?

How many wardecs can you have active at a time?

How many alt-corps can I set up?

hectiQ
Square Dimensions
Quantum Cookies
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:17:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: hectiQ on 25/08/2011 01:10:38
Quote:
Sole source of ice and high-end minerals

For further discussion. Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game. This ensures that nullsec mining retains a unique value proposition, and guarantees that mining time for these types is priced according the risk and effort involved in nullsec extraction.



Sole source of Ice in nullsec is a terrible idea. It already costs 185 Million ISK to supply a Large POS with isotopes, ozone and water.
The price for the ice fuel will go through the roof. Where is the time that the entire fuel cost of a Large POS was 90 mil a month.

Adding unique or higher value ice exclusively in nullsec would be an option. Giving three times the amount of profit for example.


/EDIT (after reading Dev reply):
When icefields will deplete like any other belt, there should still be plenty of ice available. At the moment I think there aren't many ice fields available and a lot of people will be gathering in the same spot to collect the ice cubes. If it depletes too quickly there will not be much left for players that logon a few hours after DT. But I'm sure you'll keep this in mind and work out a decent number.

Dimension Secretary
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:48:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Dimension Secretary on 23/08/2011 14:52:46
Why do you want to force people again to do something they don't want to? Only because of them being in high sec not 0.0? If you take ice away from high sec and also make mining worse there, you will make 70% of the player base angry and only the already rich ones in 0.0 richer. Did you never think about that maybe some players don't want the daily struggles of 0.0? And the small corps that live happily in high sec, they will be forced into 0.0 if they still want to make money for daily business, they will just get killed there. No towers will remain in high sec then, it will be just dead. Btw why don'T you just drop highsec and make all 0.0? fun for all :P

Well the idea of this is a bit silly in my opinion, you have to see Eve as a whole and not base all on 0.0 and on just some big alliances that whine around. Is just a nuisance if those changes will come.

Sam Browne
MYTHIC Developments
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:19:00 - [420]
 

I don't see why ice should be only 0.0 sec, but if it absolutely has to move somewhere:

Move Hi-Sec Ice to exploration, and make the roids exhaustable to enable small scale hi-sec industrialists to maintain PoS (without relying on potentially astronomical ice product prices imported from 0.0) but adding some effort in its aquisition.

Make Ice fields in Null Sec non-exhaustable in line with whatever thought process produced this idea.

It feels to me, as a small scale hi-sec industrialist, that CCP wants to make it so hard for me to play this game that I stop.
Almost succeeding CCP. Good work.


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