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CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 10:50:00 - [1]
 

This set of threads exist to collect feedback for the separate parts of the devblog "Nullsec Development: Design Goals", which can be found here.


This thread is about: MINING


Please read the blog and give specific feedback on this area of the blog. The more precise, reasoned and comprehensive you can be, the better we can utilize your feedback Smile

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:13:00 - [2]
 

While I find the design goals for mining quite acceptable, a lot of people don't do it because it's just boring.

Are there any plans to change mining gameplay to be more interesting or challenging? If so, can you expand on this? If not, are you not worried people still won't do it - this is a game afterall and the primary goal is to have fun?

RG Sneaker
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:26:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: RG Sneaker on 15/08/2011 11:26:19
Will Ice mining in hi sec end?
I might just close my hi sec POS then :-(

Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:26:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Darod Zyree on 15/08/2011 11:28:18
Since wormholes were specifically mentioned in the industry paragrah, does this mean that when talking about mining ice and ABCs will/should become nullsec thing only? meaning no more in wormholes even while wormholes being 0.0 space too?


Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:43:00 - [5]
 

I have dreamed of a day ice mining would be removed from high sec.

If this comes to pass, I will be a very happy man. Good luck and don't let the rage of ice mining botters and solo high sec POS owners deter you. It needs to be done.

Valtis Thermalion
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:46:00 - [6]
 

How about the following:

1. Move all high end ores to exploration, leaving lower value minerals to belts (such as veldspar)
2. Introduce anchorable module that can be only anchored to belts that would automatically mine for you. Owner of the module would only need to periodically empty its cargo hold. Limit the effiency of such module that proper mining op would still beat it.

This would introduce a way to gather lower value minerals in 0.0 without forcing players to waste their time with low isk per hour activities and limit the need of importing minerals from hi sec. This would also present a target to roaming gangs - if defenders don't show up, roaming gangs can kill these harvesting modules. Balance anchoring times\hp\cost in such way that deanchoring them when gang is reported is not really possible (for example, 15 to 30 minutes - perhaps they would show up on overview too when deanchoring), killing them won't take hours and that losing them is annoying but not the end of the world.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:53:00 - [7]
 

Holy crap Greyscale, when I opened the forum I thought someone had found a way around the anti-bot functions. Recommend you change your name to "CCP Spam-a-Lot" Very Happy

Posted an idea to revamp mining a while back, still valid as far as I am concerned.
Investment could be in the form of auto-harvesters that act as stationary 'scoops' so miners can focus on breaking the rocks up.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:55:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova on 15/08/2011 12:09:00
Originally by: Emperor Salazar
I have dreamed of a day ice mining would be removed from high sec.

If this comes to pass, I will be a very happy man. Good luck and don't let the rage of ice mining botters and solo high sec POS owners deter you. It needs to be done.


You talk about high sec botters when everyone in this game knows how creative your alliances are to use bots, *hi dotland*

Would like to see CCP show the number of high sec bots vs low/null sec bots and see if you are right or just another pawn mouth wide open to drunk us with your tears.

Edit: Imho if CCP wants to do something about mining they should start by change the whole mining concept: units mined per cycle, cycle time, cargo capacity.

Then work on the ships dedicated to this boring activity like align/warp, tank ability, sign, also work on hauling ships

Make this activity a lot more dynamic but impossible to keep for long periods (aka afk like I do it my self since it's boring)

Who's fool enough to mine in low sec or null knowing at the right moment your ship is on gridd/DS you're at 99% chances already dead?
Who's fool enough to spend a full evening running to safe/pos (loosing cycles/stuff) at each guy in local known/unknown not appearing on scouts DS? = hot drop prob = 80% +

Drones regions: Mistake CCP, you should start by roll back on those and a lot of problems related to market prices would be solved.

FugginNutz
Caldari
Trolls From Outer Space
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
it's just boring.


It's mining....you want the rocks to do tricks?

To make mining more "exciting" would be to remove local.

Frankcheska
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:02:00 - [10]
 

You have, between "mining" and "movement and logistics", two mutually exclusive goals from what I can tell in my quick look:-

(Mining) •Sole source of ice and high-end minerals
(M&L) •Moving large volumes should be a group effort

Unless you're planning on doing something that lowers the requirements / needs for running a POS outside of null sec then you're going to need to run high volume operations from null to non-null sec areas. High end minerals I think are probably (from what I can tell from my small scale manufacturing) not too badly palced at the moment but I can see the argument for moving them to null sec as well.

Looks good for a starting point though.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Valtis Thermalion
How about the following:

1. Move all high end ores to exploration, leaving lower value minerals to belts (such as veldspar)
2. Introduce anchorable module that can be only anchored to belts that would automatically mine for you. Owner of the module would only need to periodically empty its cargo hold. Limit the effiency of such module that proper mining op would still beat it.

This would introduce a way to gather lower value minerals in 0.0 without forcing players to waste their time with low isk per hour activities and limit the need of importing minerals from hi sec. This would also present a target to roaming gangs - if defenders don't show up, roaming gangs can kill these harvesting modules. Balance anchoring times\hp\cost in such way that deanchoring them when gang is reported is not really possible (for example, 15 to 30 minutes - perhaps they would show up on overview too when deanchoring), killing them won't take hours and that losing them is annoying but not the end of the world.


for #2 they *have* to be nullsec only, and only able to get certain rocks (i.e. you can't use it to get any low/nullsec ores). It'll destroy empire markets if it is allowed in empire.




Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Valtis Thermalion
How about the following:

1. Move all high end ores to exploration, leaving lower value minerals to belts (such as veldspar)
2. Introduce anchorable module that can be only anchored to belts that would automatically mine for you. Owner of the module would only need to periodically empty its cargo hold. Limit the effiency of such module that proper mining op would still beat it.

This would introduce a way to gather lower value minerals in 0.0 without forcing players to waste their time with low isk per hour activities and limit the need of importing minerals from hi sec. This would also present a target to roaming gangs - if defenders don't show up, roaming gangs can kill these harvesting modules. Balance anchoring times\hp\cost in such way that deanchoring them when gang is reported is not really possible (for example, 15 to 30 minutes - perhaps they would show up on overview too when deanchoring), killing them won't take hours and that losing them is annoying but not the end of the world.


for #2 they *have* to be nullsec only, and only able to get certain rocks (i.e. you can't use it to get any low/nullsec ores). It'll destroy empire markets if it is allowed in empire.







Those mods already exist and a lot more in null than low/high sec, it's called "bots" Laughing but seems CCP doesn't like them that much so why replace those for another bot type?

Liner Xiandra
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:13:00 - [13]
 

As it stands now, the combat side scales reasonably with groupsizes. You can grab a battlecruiser and do belt-ratting or lowend anomaly. You can't however, take your Hulk out mining solo very efficiently in most places of null. Clear rats, swap to Hulk, mine for 15 minutes, switch back, etc. Wormhole rats have the decency not to respawn when cleared.

While I appreciate the fact that miners are soft targets, I'd welcome some industry upgrade that would make (exploration) belts safer for miners to settle in, for example: increase ore types while decreasing the difficulty of rats. Dealing with battleship spawns as a miner aint fun.

If this change would introduce more afk cloakers hanging around in your systems, so be it.

Valtis Thermalion
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:13:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Valtis Thermalion on 15/08/2011 12:16:32
Originally by: Velicitia
for #2 they *have* to be nullsec only, and only able to get certain rocks (i.e. you can't use it to get any low/nullsec ores). It'll destroy empire markets if it is allowed in empire.


They might work in lowsec too, pirate population would make sure it would never be too popular, but yes, it shouldn't be allowed in hi sec obviously. As for certain rocks, that's why it would require all the high end ores to be moved to exploration, preventing anyone just afk-harvesting abc ores.

EDIT: The way I see it, there must be fairly low-effort way to get low end ores in 0.0. No one will bother mining veldspar if there is any other possible ways of making isk, making imports of ore a necessity to run any large scale industry in 0.0. (And if you are importing ore, you might as well import modules from Jita, making null sec industry redundant)

Karia Sur
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:17:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: RG Sneaker
Edited by: RG Sneaker on 15/08/2011 11:26:19
Will Ice mining in hi sec end?
I might just close my hi sec POS then :-(


Yea lets shift all the ice to the areas where CCP members have the luxury of been in sov alliances.

This brainwave is nearly as bad as whoever thought up the P2W fiasco.

I sense loads of accounts getting cancelled yet again over this if it goes through.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:27:00 - [16]
 

Considering the enormous time it takes to supply the ice needed i dont see how most 0.0 miners would do it, highsec is kinda ok for afk mining (check miner once every what 10 mins or so? dont remember the cycle time off the top of my head). But to do so where you can be jumped by a SB at anytime in a super flimsy machinaw? I dont know i just have a hard time seeing that, *shrugs* but who knows. I hear bots are patient.

Lady Kincaid
Gallente
BSX Industries
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:35:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Lady Kincaid on 15/08/2011 12:37:03
Mining, you mean Moon Mining? If yes then:

1. Delete minerals from moons.

2. Boost Alchemy on POSs (or maybe add special rapid structure for Alchemy and allow it to be anchored only in Low-Sec). With preventing Supers of jumping into Low-Sec things would be funny and Dreadnoughts would find their role then.

Target: reduce price of hi end minerals by increasing supply.

Currently hi-end moons are best source of ISK for RMT in EVE.

S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:04:00 - [18]
 

I used to mine with 7 chars at a time... this was pretty lucrative back in 2008 when we stayed in Detorid. This was probably the best time I had in EVE. All but this account has now been suspended as the time spent mining is currently overpowered by the macro miners and minerals are no longer at the old value.

Some suggestions:

- Remove ICE from empire entirely ( 99% of ICE products get used in low sec and null sec )
- Redistribute ores throughout EVE. One regions value shouldn't be better than another. Maybe have a more arknor in one region with less Bistot and then the other region the reverse. The ISK per hour should be the same though.
- Remove high end OREs from WH space. They have the very lucrative Sleeper sites in their space.
- Possibly introduce more low ends like Veldspar with a higher number of units per roid. Then create T3 crystals that can mine more units to balance out the ISK per hour.
- Possibly add Capital mining Lasers to the Rorqual that can compress as it mines. Can only mine low ends maybe? Point is, mining low ends should give the same ISK per hour as high ends(In low sec and null Sec ONLY).
- Remove the alloys from the drone regions entirely. The fact that they drop minerals is not wise. Give them bounties and let them drop mods like the rest of eve. All modules are built using minerals, so reversing(refining) the process should give minerals.
- A better loot logger type device for mining would also help greatly with group mining. Somehow get a tally of all ore mined so that distribution can be done fairly. Many a time we have group mined and been done in by people that have inefficiently mined or just havn't been commited to train up mining skills.
- Create more mineral sinks. Make Titans and Super carriers use more resources, stations use more minerals. POS modules and structures use more minerals.

Please go check the mineral prices in and around 2008. From what I remember that is where they shouldv'e been.

Hope this helps.

Rrama Ratamnim
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:28:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rrama Ratamnim on 15/08/2011 13:28:54
- Mine Logger is need much lite loot logging to coordinate mining operations and how much each person mined and types...

- Removal of most ice from hisec, and whatever ice is in hisec should despawn like regular roids, so that they can be mined empty quickly

- Removal of High End Ores from wormholes, additions of more gas clouds in wormholes instead perhaps?

- More common availability of gas clouds in nullsec as it is the booster situation is abyssmal a nd honestly whats last time you heard a corp say, lets do a "gas op" ... it just doesnt happen.

- Mechanics of mining need to be revised into something that rewards attentive mining, ... PLEASE SEE GAMES LIKE THE MOON SCANNING/MINING IN MassEffect 2 for a idea :S


- IF YOU WANT TO MAKE NULLSEC SELF SUFFICENT GIVE US WHAT WE NEED... BETTER LOW END ORE ROIDS, Dear god what i'd do for a massive Dense veldspar in the hidden belts instead of those other gay mid-level ores... uggh

Nieero
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:33:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
Mining in nullsec should make you a "good" amount of money, ie trending slightly above the average for nullsec professions.

What ever you're gonna introduce, make sure its very resilient to botting! Not that I'm implying that you haven't though about that one already...

Lor Kessel
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:49:00 - [21]
 

Restricting Ice mining to nullsec would have far reaching consequences which stem from one concern

Logistics - how would all those ice products get from nullsec to high sec for the high sec POS's ?

The cost of ice products would sky rocket, this would cause many highsec and lowsec pos's to offline, virtually no BP research would occur in highsec or lowsec any more. This would drive the cost of T2 ships/modules through the roof.


Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:51:00 - [22]
 

RE: High-end minerals.

Isn't it enough that nullsec is the sole-source of moon minerals for T2 development?

Why not simply allow the hiring of Mining Agents to work out of player owned stations, and have them give real ore missions to support both the station owners and miners working out of those systems?

Possibly even better than that: give the Skiff some love. Bubbles make fixed mercoxit deposits too easy to defend from ninja miners. Broaden the skiff's bonuses for bringing in ore so it is useful in more situations or adjust its evasive capabilities to be more appropriate to the desired nullsec PvP environment.

Callic Veratar
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:52:00 - [23]
 

The few high ends that would appear randomly and rarely in high sec were removed recently. I always got a huge rush when I found a hidden belt or anomaly with a tiny bit of hemorphite or jaspet, not even enough to build a rifter, but that's gone now.

Now, ice is going away too.

If this still doesn't change things are you going to remove Plag, Kernite, Omber, and Pyrox from highsec too?

Servilia Junii
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:54:00 - [24]
 

a few things..

1. Ice shouldn't be taken out of high sec. All you'll see happen is a ton of research towers taken off line and the price of fuel jump 300%. The ice mechanic in its current form is broken more then normal mining. Mining Ice in low-sec/null is all but a suicide mission unless you're in a large alliance.

2. Taking high ends out of WH's and putting all of them in 'null sec' is a bit redundent considering wormholes ARE null sec. Mining in low-sec is only safe in grav belts and even then, its a near suicide mission. Blaming wh's for the current state of the mineral market is just silly considering all that null sec with level 4/5 industry. The real blame is on null sec. i.e. You nerfed anom's, but not indy upgrades. thus, everyone started tearing up the arkanor. ta-da

3. the door?


Seraphina Amaranth
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:06:00 - [25]
 

Problem: Nullsec needs more low-end minerals.

Solution: capital mining ship with industrial reconfiguration siege mode that boosts low-end mining crystals.

S8nt
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:08:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Callic Veratar
The few high ends that would appear randomly and rarely in high sec were removed recently. I always got a huge rush when I found a hidden belt or anomaly with a tiny bit of hemorphite or jaspet, not even enough to build a rifter, but that's gone now.

Now, ice is going away too.

If this still doesn't change things are you going to remove Plag, Kernite, Omber, and Pyrox from highsec too?


I would think that minerals that are exclusively available to null sec should be Ark, Bistot, Crokite and Mercoxit. All the others in low sec/empire scale ok now except for ice.

Originally by: Servilia Junii
a few things..

1. Ice shouldn't be taken out of high sec. All you'll see happen is a ton of research towers taken off line and the price of fuel jump 300%. The ice mechanic in its current form is broken more then normal mining. Mining Ice in low-sec/null is all but a suicide mission unless you're in a large alliance.

2. Taking high ends out of WH's and putting all of them in 'null sec' is a bit redundent considering wormholes ARE null sec. Mining in low-sec is only safe in grav belts and even then, its a near suicide mission. Blaming wh's for the current state of the mineral market is just silly considering all that null sec with level 4/5 industry. The real blame is on null sec. i.e. You nerfed anom's, but not indy upgrades. thus, everyone started tearing up the arkanor. ta-da

3. the door?


1. There has to be a reason to move to null sec, moving all ICE there would benefit low sec and give people that are prepared to take the risk all the return they deserve. Too many people macro ICE mining.

2. Maybe we should get sleeper sites in null sec then? Every different type of space should have a benefit. I cannot get Sleeper loot from 0.0 but I can mine ores. It should be the same other way round.

If I specialize in something I want to get maximum return for it, otherwise it's a waste of time to even try.

Kalmanaka
Caldari
Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:11:00 - [27]
 

Reading comprehension ftl.
These are IDEAS being talked about, not plans, and certainly not changes coming in the next patch.

Quote:
Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game.

"at least some of the"

Seriously people. Read before posting. Where anyone gets "removing ice from hi-sec" is beyond me and boggles the mind. Are we that hard up for drama here?


Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:11:00 - [28]
 

1. Change mining so that its either FUN to do, or completely automated by placing anchorable extractors in belts so that it can be done unattended.

2. please do the math on the removal of wh abc's before you actually remove them. I am convinced most, of the mined ores are consumed locally for ship production, and not sold. Removing them will force W-space dwellers to do many more itty 5 hauls while we probably only represent an insignificant market effect.

3. if u do end up removing abc's from w-space then strip the requirements for those minerals from t3 production chains.


Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:21:00 - [29]
 

If mining in null-sec is to become the exclusive source of low end minerals, that means you're going to have to completely redo either missions, reprocessing, or both. Either NPC wrecks need to stop dropping modules, or modules need to stop spitting out high end minerals when you reprocess them. Maybe reprocessing a module should give you "components" rather than minerals, and modules should be made from components instead.. but then you're looking at a massive industry overhaul and.. well, yeah, time and money.

Either way, if you want to make nullsec mining good, you're going to have to first make mining in general good. Really, this crosses over into industrial territory a whole lot.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Servilia Junii
a few things..
1. Ice shouldn't be taken out of high sec. All you'll see happen is a ton of research towers taken off line and the price of fuel jump 300%. The ice mechanic in its current form is broken more then normal mining. Mining Ice in low-sec/null is all but a suicide mission unless you're in a large alliance.


You seem to be under the impression that removing ice from high-sec is being considered for reasons other than making sure only large alliances have control over it.
Quote:

2. Taking high ends out of WH's and putting all of them in 'null sec' is a bit redundent considering wormholes ARE null sec.


Wormholes are *not* null-sec. The primary difference being that there is no "local" (unless you are daft enough to say something in local, then everyone else who you don't see knows you are in system).

Originally by: Callic Veratar
The few high ends that would appear randomly and rarely in high sec were removed recently. I always got a huge rush when I found a hidden belt or anomaly with a tiny bit of hemorphite or jaspet, not even enough to build a rifter, but that's gone now.


I just mined out an "average" size Jaspet/hemorphite site last night in Amarr space. So unless there was an update last night, you might just be having a run of bad luck with finding them.

Feedback for the devs: Nice list of "ideas" you have for mining. Funny how all of them have huge benefits, primarily, for Alliances.



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