open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: Nullsec Development: Design Goals
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

Author Topic

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:55:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 15/08/2011 15:04:13
It is surprising to me the idea being proposed of removing
ICE mining from hi-sec - as it will certainly have a considerable
impact on many hi-sec manufacturers/industrialists. As a rule of thumb in MMOs,
nerfing activities or current abilities is a big no-no. Instead of
nerfing ICE mining in hi-sec, why not improve something in null-sec, add
something new - to make null-sec more appealing. Instead of constricting
the hi-sec player, make null-sec more enticing by enhancing.

My two cents.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:01:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Wacktopia on 15/08/2011 15:01:31
So... what's under the painted over section on planets from the white board? Rolling Eyes

Edit: Yes I read the footnote - just trolololing

Coco Caine
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:01:00 - [33]
 

I wish you good luck with this, but honestly, it is far too early to comment on anything - lots of visionary stuff can be written on a whiteboard, yet any concrete change to nullsec unlikely to happen before deep into 2012.

Give me back the 5 mins i wasted on this dev blog.




Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:06:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 15/08/2011 15:47:55
NVM

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:39:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: dgastuffz
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Har Harrison
Interesting... When is low sec/FW getting some of this attention (it WAS promised...)


I'd love to move to lowsec after we're done with 0.0. First things first though.


so in lets say 6 years from now on are you kidding me?


Beat me to what I was going to say. FW and lowsec can't wait until after Comrade CCP's marvelous and farseeing 5 year plan.

Evil Incarn8
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:48:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Evil Incarn8 on 15/08/2011 16:20:28
Ok, a few points I would like cleared up.

The last item under the mining heading, "better than other passive income", how is mining a passive income unless you are botting?

Again under Industry, "Sole source of Ice / Highends", this is a really bad idea, high ends should be available in wh space and in smaller quantities in losec as it is now, Ice should also be available in losec and with base poor quality ice in 0.5 sec.

Under territory and conquest, what does "T2 safe" mean?

EDIT, Seems its TZ not T2 :)

Overall I like the ideas, you will/are scaring a lot of people, but they need a good shakeup out there. Industry should be a profession, not something you have an alt do.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:51:00 - [37]
 

I worried that you want to force players who enjoy high sec to leave via a massive high sec nerf. If you do that you better give them someplace to go. The average high sec player is in high sec because they do not enjoy PvP combat.

Will you change things so alliance leaders will welcome such players into null? Otherwise, you may well force such players out of high sec, and right into a different game. Right now a pure industrialist / PvE player is not welcome in null. I see nothing in your roadmap that would encourage alliance leaders to recruit such players into their alliance. You should fix that.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:53:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/08/2011 15:53:26
Shameless Plug :

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1565324


I really don't think inverting null and high sec is an option or a reality - but taking world forming into consideration, making certain regions be more viable for trade opportunities by null sec centralization can make that "asymmetry" of value.

Consider some spaces of null-sec are very valuable logistically, but very poor industrially, and you can end up with people holding up logistical central points, but requiring other areas to bring in materials and resources to make use of those logistically valuable locations.


This would promote free-trade outposts for profiteering (taxes, etc) - and create positions for centralization.

Perhaps that would translate into allowing more public forms of system improvements.


Maybe not only a Cyno Jammer, but also a Bubble Jammer to stop warp bubbles in systems. This can go on to add other tools for people who want to promote an open space policy - public jump bridges and so forth.


I guess that's the main thing I would say has been defining null sec development in EVE, ways to DEFEND your space, so that's what people do. Give people the tools to OPEN THEIR space and they will do that too.

Build it and they will come.


Think about it!

Nonnori Ikkala
Love for You
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:00:00 - [39]
 

Great! I love that you're thinking about these big issues, and that you're telling us about your thoughts and process. The upgrade in detail from the last blog is sweet.

So... when can we expect the list of null sec features to be included in patch-the-next? :)

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:02:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/08/2011 16:13:14
Edited by: Bloodpetal on 15/08/2011 16:12:21

On the matter of null sec agents being the best, I think that using much more In Space Agents in Null sec for various corporations is very viable.


In other words, don't make all those agents Pirates - not everyone wants to be an NPC Pirate, but that doesn't mean that Republic Fleet has no interest out there, or whatever.


I think another possibility for null sec missions is more of a "mission board" ability.


Imagine you're walking around Incarna and you walk up to a Mission Board in a Pirate NPC system - you can see missions from Republic Fleet, Amarr navy, Guristas, etc. Also provide an option for those who dont want Incarna to interact with such...

You can associate the mission with an Agent in Hi Sec specifically - so it's a kind of remote mission being done in null sec.

Alternately, provide some small time pirate missions in Hi Sec to lure people out to Null Sec pirate agents. Use the Establishments "black market" to provide this NPC content - you have to go off grid since clearly Republic Fleet would never let Angel Cartel openly allow missions to be fed to hi sec. This could also apply to forcing players who want to run Republic Fleet missions in Angel Cartel space to go "off grid" to operate with their goody two-shoes agents.


The challenge is balancing this so players don't only run these off-grid missions.


I'd say make them limited in quantity and in appearance. These missions don't come around all the time. In terms of "missions everywhere", you don't want symmetry in where you can get missions for different corporations. Where the missions appear matter - Guristas aren't interested in Minmatar space, at least not often. I'm sure you can use the standings already designated to generate some kind of statistical generation of these missions. Very Rarely you can get a Gurista mission in Minmatar space for an agent who needs some work done out there.

I'm sure the missions themselves should not necessarily be more profitable, but designed to give players an opportunity to do something different, learn about a different part of EVE, and then make some connections, literally and find a reason to go out to Pirate space.




Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:11:00 - [41]
 

0.0 residents should not have the feeling that speed-running lvl 4 missions in highsec is a good and hassle-free source of income. You will need to move lvl 4 agents to low-sec or reduce high-sec mission bounties a good bit. High-sec had an risk/reward ratio way out of ballance for years. It's time to stop that.

All what lvl 4 missions do right now is pumping risk-free ISK into the economy. You'll have to plug that hole sooner or later, since rising the 0.0 rewards high enough to be in line with highsec-no-risk rewards is not an option. So why not do it first? You will have a lot more people considering going to 0.0 (again) right away (including me) with little effort. Let the carebears cry, they'll adapt. If they get their pimped up faction BS in 1 month or 2, who cares.

Otherwise - nice roadmap. Sure it's the perfect game world and we will most likely never get it, but why not strive for excellence. Very Happy



Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:18:00 - [42]
 

I have a question regarding the smallholding. Is it the intent that various small alliances/corporations/individuals could actually share a nullsec system and still get particular benefits from doing so?

Astomichi
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:28:00 - [43]
 

:words:

Exciting words, granted, but CCP has a history of giving lots of good :words: then completely failing to deliver the product - ever.

Digital Gaidin
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:35:00 - [44]
 

Movement and logistics
As long as Jump Freighters remain in the game, and/or Titans able to easily move fleets of freighters using Jump portals (and yes, almost every pet entity has Titans available to some rich members today), how is this going to be achieved? The more people the more opportunity for spies, so people will just do things themselves (as always) or the path of least resistance (blob gate, jump freighters, warp to POS with Titan inside it, jump, total op time <10min).
From the larger fleets perspective, as long as I can drop a cyno and move N-carriers/dreads/supers/titans anywhere I want, how do bigger ships move slower? As long as I can bridge my fleet anywhere, how does this slow down larger fleets? Also, if you do slow them down, coming home 27 jumps to your base of operation turns into a nightmare and people often would rather get killed and podded then flying that often enough.

PvE
The main reason groups suck in nullsec PvE is due to the bursts of high payouts and the often large amounts of time that are spent getting to that point. If the max payout for the night is going to be a couple non-escalating plexes totaling under 100million, why do you want to split this 5-ways? It's great if a nice BPC drops and it wasn't a waste of everyone's time, but as it is its often a waste unless you're there for the social aspect and not making some ISK.

NPC nullsec
Short of declaring a max hanger size inside the station to prevent fleets of ships moving into NPC nullsec stations, how do you prevent a large mercenary force (alliance) from moving into an NPC station, basing out of here for operations (indefinitely), and effectively being immune to the effects of Sovereignty warfare while waging a Sovereignty war themselves? It sounds like you are suggesting that you plan to limit the use of the major sovereignty holders from using NPC nullsec as a safe way to wage war (we all do it when basing remotely), but is this more of an idea or are you serious about providing a clear incentive not to use it?

Small Combat
Can we please make this better than "causing the enemy to dock up or safe up". As long as local exists as an intel tool, that disruption lasts the duration of the fleet in system + 5-10seconds.

Large Combat
Diverse Fleets - Why bring other ships if one uber-tanked battleship can track nearly everything it needs to kill, use of tactics leads to warp-ins quickly being formed on any fleet outside of range, and a few T3 tacklers dealing with anything small enough that you can't kill in short order? As long as a single tactic-type of ship (Alpha, Hellcat, etc.) can be used to deal with most situations, why fly any other type of ship?
Value For All - Logistics already act as a "healing" role in EVE, and has changed the fleet dynamics in EVE from DPS fleets facing off to tanked fleets with legions of Logistics keeping them alive. While I am a logistics pilot in almost every fleet that calls for a Guardian, is keeping more people on the battlefield alive longer really what this goal implies? Isn't more destruction better, not less?
Decisions Beat Numbers - Is this more than "who brings the FOTM wins"? How do you plan on making diverse fleets combined with battlefield tactics lead to victories over a uniform fleet of the FOTM doing a carbon-copy tactic?

Territory and Conquest
The main question I have: Is Sovereignty going to be changed so its beneficial and fun to own? Currently, the vast majority of sovereignty owned is being rented to anyone willing to pay because organizations want to expand their sphere of influence but running the space... sucks. Mine the moons, collect rent, thrown down some CSAA's and wage war elsewhere. There is very little in the way of fun with managing and running an empire, and the monetary rewards linked to sovereignty are more in line with renter corporations, rather than where the real monetary reward is (resources not linked to sovereignty, taxes, capital building/sales)

Digital Gaidin
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:29:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Digital Gaidin on 15/08/2011 17:40:30
Follow-up as above text was limited in size.

There is no point of doing trade/industry in non-NPC 0.0 with the exception of major base locations in highly secure space of an established alliance because:
* Blueprints/Construction will be trapped upon invasion
* Trade goods will be trapped upon invasion, especially if invading alliance does not stick around and no one to buy your trapped goods
* Moving/Retrieving valuable blueprints is very dangerous and prone to theft/destruction
(enterprising individuals can work around this at higher risk for the reward)

Capital fleets will remain cheap to operate as long as Ice exists in High Sec space. When they become more expensive to operate, the major players in capital warfare will remain unaffected and only the poorer alliances will be drastically hindered in operation (unless the price becomes outrageous to fire a DD, bridge a fleet, or jump a Dreadnought/Carrier fleet). Only then will Capitals become a tool to be used sparingly.

Low Sec will continue to suck until pilots can effectively defend themselves without taking Concord hits and/or being shot at by gate guns.

Jita will control all trade until there is a path of less resistance to getting what you need quickly and cheaply. Buy ships/modules, afk through empire in NPC corp freighter alt, drop modules at jump location, jump to destination. It cannot get easier.

Empire stations will reign supreme as long as you can refine, build, trade and research there safely and cheaply. A 25% build time increase and use tax non-negatable by skills or reputation might be in order? What major sovereignty holder never imposed taxes when there was so much money to be gained? What bureaucracy ever operated at the same efficiency as highly optimized organizations? (Lowsec, NPC nullsec should be included with possibly slightly lesser penalties!) If 25% penalties don't get you there, keep raising them. Risk vs. Reward. Removing empire POS's would have drastic effects as well on LowSec/Nullsec operation. Removing the ability to use Blueprints in station and forcing them to be IN A POS would as well.

Empire missions will reign supreme for reliable money making for most entities as it is a reliable and consistent source of income that matches what most can make in 80% of nullsec space without significant risk/investment. Either nullsec must become more profitable (in all areas) or level 4 agents need to be LowSec only to provide risk for the reward.

Mining will remain relatively pointless as long as mission running loot in empire (and drone alloys) controls the price of minerals. Alternate mining options (Wormholes) should be taken into account when deciding the fate of nullsec mining! Less entry of minerals into the system would have drastic effects. Maybe refining modules produces low end salvage instead? Food for thought?

Last but not least, good luck making Nullsec more profitable than incursions... Laughing Vanguards at 4-6min/each is amazing ISK Cool

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:33:00 - [46]
 

Wonderful devblog, thanks.

Victoria Wolfe
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:33:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Victoria Wolfe on 15/08/2011 17:39:28
From what I can tell, a good portion of this blog is focused on dragging high sec players to null. The reality is, most in high sec want to be there. It's no secret you can make way more ISK in null and in relative safety if you can get into a large power block.

Many in high sec play there because they don't want to PVP and/or are casual players who want a more relaxed environment. They may also be those who don't play often enough or seriously enough to want to be bothered living outside Empire space. So if you take away the principle past times of these people the result will not be a mass migration to null, but instead these players will get bored of the game and leave.

So my advice if you want to revamp, liven up, enhance null is not to do it to the detriment of the other areas. You won't get more people out there, you'll just get fewer people.

FugginNutz
Caldari
Trolls From Outer Space
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:34:00 - [48]
 

Gonna copy/pasta from another forum that sums everything up perfect:

Quote:
OK.

Now deliver.

Max



wizzard66
Gallente
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:02:00 - [49]
 

Reading this blog scared me.
It scared me that there seems to be CCP employees that do understand this game, the playerbase and the needs we have towards game development.

If only it could be made like it was on that board...

Asuka Solo
Gallente
Stark Fujikawa
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:09:00 - [50]
 

I noticed your section for planets in the bottom right hand side was empty.

Here are some ideas for you demigods of coding and brainstorming.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:31:00 - [51]
 

Quote:
99% self-sufficient by volume
For further discussion. People building things in nullsec should only need to travel to empire (or more than a couple of regions across nullsec) for low-volume supplies. This requires that industrialists have a ready supply of low-end minerals available nearby in nullsec, without breaking other systems or goals. (Likely means some way of mining low-ends in a massively more rapid manner compared to current tools.)


Like others pointed out, it shouldn't be 99% self sufficient. Resources should be regionalized enough so that 0.0 to empire and 0.0 to 0.0 transactions need to happen. For T2 production this specifically means that moon type availability should have a strong regional bias (ofc demand should be roughly equal among the moon minerals in a given rarity class).

Sassums
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:38:00 - [52]
 

all the mining information sucks.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:45:00 - [53]
 

Quote:
•Accessible ◦Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec. Not everyone wants to get involved in nullsec, but every player that feels even a slight interest but never quite takes the plunge represents a failure of design that we should fix.


You ment 10 BILLION isk, didn't you?

I had close to 15 million after week 2 in the game running and salvaging the sisters of eve in mostly a t1 frigate (needed to come back for the last couple, but the isk figure still stands for the point up to there)

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:47:00 - [54]
 

Removal of ice from highsec? No thanks. How about you put more ice/better ice in nullsec/lowsec, and leave what ice remains in highsec

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:52:00 - [55]
 

Many people who left 0.0 did not leave it for the lack of rewards or things to do, but because they despised the 0.0 politics, the who-is-the-biggest-douchebag-of-all-competition between alliances and leaders, the growing supercapital blobs, the fact that had to kiss the arse of the douchebags mentioned before and so on..

Shoving all the high level rewards into their rear ends with high pressure will makes things only worse.

Erinyes Nazgul
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:04:00 - [56]
 

Remove ice from high sec? Awesome and long overdue.

At the very minimum, make ice pop. No more unlimited ice fields.

Perhaps have ice only in low sec, 0.0 and WHs.

Regardless, I like the idea.

Digital Gaidin
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:09:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Many people who left 0.0 did not leave it for the lack of rewards or things to do, but because they despised the 0.0 politics, the who-is-the-biggest-douchebag-of-all-competition between alliances and leaders, the growing supercapital blobs, the fact that had to kiss the arse of the douchebags mentioned before and so on..

Shoving all the high level rewards into their rear ends with high pressure will makes things only worse.


Just a hunch, but I expect that they are trying to get those exact same people back into nullsec with this next expansion.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:12:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Myxx
Removal of ice from highsec? No thanks. How about you put more ice/better ice in nullsec/lowsec, and leave what ice remains in highsec


Quoted in support ^

I've never mined ice and only mined that green ore for a couple missions I accidently took...but

- it seems to me some people like mining in a sort of 'bag of chips" sort of way.. probably doing it while watching tv etc...but maybe also enjoying the IRC part of the game (----don't discount the value of chat retaining people, and being social about something meaningless is good escape from more stressful social interactions at work and home----)

- connected to above
xxxxxxxxxxx many of those people don't really want the attention and the stress of low sec or 0.0
... Don't drive players from the game by forcing them to do things they don't want to do . Ice mining is important to high sec industrilist, and many of thost guys are the type of players that
... prefer to be self sufficient as just a FUN semi role play
.. the nutheads actually have their datacore alts assigned to the very cheapest cores because they need the rather than making expensive ones, selling them and buying what they need and having 90% of the isk left over

--- operative word is FORCING .. carrots not sticks Also. it isn't a balance of PvP vs PVE...and many try to cast it that way.

--- you'll force people out of the game more than you'll create more pvp
--- i do support stuff like Hulkageddon that provides some occasional risk in High sec.. just a fairly low odds risk and generally preventable with a minor amound of caution even as a lone player wanting a bit of low key support.

xxxx Don't fall into an easy trap of thinking you'll get more small gang warfare by forcing people who are looking for a bit of low key relaxation into danger......HOWEVER... if they sorta get a spark in their eye and have a lust for highe rates per hour, and random rewards (a few sleeper artifacts? popping randomly from ice in low and null sec?) you rightly point to as exciting.. well .. even they will know that .. they took a chance and got ganked trying to get greedy.


Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:21:00 - [59]
 

I'm reading between the lines, but I think you're alluding to some limited way of making some isk while online in 0.0 hoping for friends to come on line to group with.

I know people hate WoW reference but the "Daily Quests" were a fairly workable solution to easing certain types of grinds (of course some felt those became mandatory too.. but thats a matter of other types of balance, not the concept itself)

I know that with the use of alts people can get around any limits but it can be a partial barrier--- it certainly provides some friction and those with handfuls of accounts have already discovered many ways to EVE fortunes. --- forcing that might even make spotting botters through intial profiling a bit easier (profiling to follow up, not assume guilt first) seeing a line of characters being signed into from the same computer.

inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:33:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Myxx
Removal of ice from highsec? No thanks. How about you put more ice/better ice in nullsec/lowsec, and leave what ice remains in highsec


Removing Ice from highsec will only end up crashing the market and making it near to impossible to fuel 0.0 POSs for a few weeks/months, crashing pretty much all of nullsec for that period or even longer.

Don't remove it, rather, as Myxx said, make it more feasable to mine it from less secure areas. And in more feasable I mean hugely more feasable, so much that people would frown upon you if you told them you wanted to import it from Jita.


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only