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Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:26:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Lucien Visteen
If an afk cloaker is present suspect a fleet. It should not be that easy in .0 space.


the issue about this is, if he's scouting for a fleet, he's not AFK.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:26:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
That's why you do intel. Have agents see where they are for example. Learn their patterns. Hell, Google them! That's how we found that the stealth bomber in our hole blogged about his exploits, which gave us a ton of intel. Toughen your ships up. Team up. Grow a pair and play. It's not hard to do.


Yep.

Wow discussing when both agree is boring. However if we agree, maybe we can work on a solution.

I bring this:
The way local is set up atm makes gathering intel in the enemies systems is tricky. Unless you got an insane amount of luck getting in undetected is nigh impossible. That makes gathering intel by my standard boring. I want to be able to get in and get out with none knowing I even was there. A solution I can favor is one in the feedback sticky for intel, suggested by Razin. Delay the time it takes for local to update its information. For instance if you stay in a system for more than 15 minutes then you will be shown on the list. But if you skip throu it then you wont.

Second is for cloak. It is easy, way too easy to hide with it atm. You should not be too safe anywhere out in open space. And especially not inside enemy systems. Here I also suggest it have a timer with a cooldown. And give the cloak ships a bonus for using the modules. Like a 20% passive bonus per level to signature masking.

If someone have others ideas, I want to hear them.

Im not saying cloaking is broken. Im not out to kill people with it, Im making it a little harder to hide yes. I am not calling anything afk cloaking, an active player is active and a nonactive player is nonactive. Im not saying a mechanic is broken, however im for tweaking it. And I know cloaking is done the way it is done because local is the way it is. What Im meaning is; lets get something new to the table than the same old stuff.

(or ignore all that and go on with the same old boring arguments)

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:52:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 18/08/2011 17:52:58
Originally by: Lucien Visteen
snipped for space


I still think my idea of being able to turn off the ships transponder will work for this. Imagine, if you would... flip a switch and your ship's transponder is off. Your ship is no longer communicating with the rest of the universe. No local, any chats (maybe excepting private ones, maybe). Result... you not only disappear from local, you can no longer see who's in local either. If you're not cloaked, your ship will still show up on DScan, can be probed, etc. If you're there to gather intel, you'll need to do it actively, and if you don't want to get caught doing it you'll need to do it stealthily. Maybe DScan at various points, maybe combat probes if you think you can be quick and catch them asleep...

Ponder that. You can't see who's in local anymore, and they can't see you. Add that fleets cannot warp to you with the transponder off (no signal) and that there's a delay when activating / deactivating the transponder and we can have a system that adds a whole new element to the game (outside wormholes).

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:55:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

A) Expensive
B) Skill intensive
C) Very slow



Even CCP has admitted that these sort of "limitations" quickly turn out to be non-existent when implemented.
Make a 2billion isk module that takes 2months to build, and when activated will give a 10% chance to uncloak someone, and ships will be fitted with them within days after the initial 2 month build time, thus completely negating the use of cloaking devices in general. Not just for AFK cloakers.

Time out for inactivity? The simplest of bots can counter that.

The apparent assumptions that some people make about wormhole space are mildly humorous. The lack of local gives wh-space a really great dynamic. It's a contest. D-scan vs. combat probes.
Any "nerf" you would suggest be done to cloaking, to satisfy a small group of people "terrorized" by one guy who isn't even paying attention to his screen, would have a large impact on the people who depend on cloaking not only for intel, but survival.

The most reasonable idea I've seen regarding preventing long term afk cloaking is some sort of fuel for the cloaking device. Maybe make blueprints to turn isogen into cloak pellets and turn the cloak device into a turret type object (the reason for this, though it seems odd, is to keep the amount of program coding down to a minimum. Best way to do that is work with the objects already coded). Additional benefit to this idea: Isogen would actually have a use.

Not one person in any of these numerous threads has ever so much as given the name of a GM or CCP employee who has even made statements that imply that AFK Cloaking is an exploit.

Before ANYONE even objectively looks at the whole "fuel" idea, the people who have their gameplay so incredibly disrupted by AFK Cloaking need to put up or shut up on the exploit issue.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:21:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around.

AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.



no...it fixes the problem of afk cloaky. You all are scared of the cloaky no one has seen for days. Don't see him...he'll stop doing it. Why sit in a system 23.5/7 afk when I can't be seen?

Your non-afk cloakies do wacky things. they sit in system maybe an hour...get bored and do gate jumps. take the time to sit on a gate once in a while...will see mr. bait arazu jumping to find something to bait.

Trust me...have lost many ships trying to kill these things. Some were Ima tard for taking bait. Some were I want this solo kill really bad and lets see if I can pop him before the cyno (did this on ships with insurance about to run out).

The tl;dr....non afk cloakies move around. AFk cloakies don't. No local...afk doesn't induce fear anymore. he does it...he's a tard since can't be seen. Get your peeps on gates to deal with bored non-afk cloakies and have a nice day.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:24:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 18/08/2011 23:24:43
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around.

AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.


what you are forgetting is that removing trhe cloaked from local is a double edged sword. Your cloaked support is now also hidden from the cloaked ganker.. (afk strawman non issue) the cloaker has to be careful and more cautous of attacking someone with cloaked friends.. which may actually be in abundance.

other ideas are just non-working or excuses to remove cloaking from the game.

.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:50:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 18/08/2011 23:24:43
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around.

AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.


what you are forgetting is that removing trhe cloaked from local is a double edged sword. Your cloaked support is now also hidden from the cloaked ganker.. (afk strawman non issue) the cloaker has to be careful and more cautous of attacking someone with cloaked friends.. which may actually be in abundance.

other ideas are just non-working or excuses to remove cloaking from the game.

.



that too....very good point. recon parties get more interesting on gates now for sure lol.


No local hinders hot drops. As is now...cloaky talks to mommie. Mommies goes how many in local. Cloaky goes jsut the tard solo ratting in an archon. Niiiice. Pop your cyno.......now.


No local...mommy pilot has to wonder how good intel is now. Even if his own uber scanner/cyno alt he can trust (as much as he trusts himself anyway)...well its 0.0. I have literally died in a ship in less than minute after pick up. Passed through a system...clear as crystal. gate jump...station....hop in ship...undcok...jump back in that same system not even a minute later to see a bubble...and wasn't ours. Boom... gf...you guys are f'ing fast I'll give you that.


Hate the hot drop...no local your friend. really bored crew could say well we cover carriers on ops.....lets for giggles throw out a bait carrier. We need a volunteer...do not run your implanted clone...we are replaceing a carrier, not slaves lol. Cyno for the gank won't see mr. sabre cloaked up...mommie comes in, sbare declaoks, 100 yard dash.... bubble bubble....and its time to cyno in the rest of the peeps. Kill the mommie before the self destruct op night lol.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.19 06:23:00 - [128]
 

Whatever... my point still is that cloakers should still have some risk being shout out of their ship, the longer they stay in a system. On a smaller scale than anyone uncloaked, that's for sure, but they shouldn't be completely safe so that they can afford to go AFK for a whole day.

Regardless how they try to justify what they're doing, completely safe cloaking (meaning nothing can happen to you as long as you're not dumb enough and cloak next to a station or another frequented spot) is something like an "I win" button and seriously upsets game balance; it doesn't matter whether a cloaker is limited in its actions or not.

And simply logging in, cloaking and leaving for the day is not gameplay, it's simple griefing in my point of view.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:59:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/08/2011 08:59:47
Originally by: Rina Asanari
Whatever... my point still is that cloakers should still have some risk being shout out of their ship, the longer they stay in a system. On a smaller scale than anyone uncloaked, that's for sure, but they shouldn't be completely safe so that they can afford to go AFK for a whole day.

see, afk cloaking thing is only working on a long term. In short periods of time people will just sit you out, wait until you leave and then return to belts.

Originally by: Rina Asanari
Regardless how they try to justify what they're doing, completely safe cloaking (meaning nothing can happen to you as long as you're not dumb enough and cloak next to a station or another frequented spot) is something like an "I win" button and seriously upsets game balance; it doesn't matter whether a cloaker is limited in its actions or not.

I win? Why shouldn't you be able to be everywhere in eve universe?
If you are cloaked you cant do anything. Thats not an I win button. Its very effective though if applied correctly in pvp, yes.

Originally by: Rina Asanari
And simply logging in, cloaking and leaving for the day is not gameplay, it's simple griefing in my point of view.
yeah... you may have you point of views, as everyone else of course

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:11:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 12:12:42
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 12:11:58
One thing we have to concider that we havent in afk cloaking is the lack of doing nothing from many parties.

There are times when someone is ratting and someon comes into system and then the ratter warps off and cloaks. The hunter also warps and cloaks for a while. Now we got two parties unactive cloaked for a whole day in a system doing nothing and waiting for each other to uncloak.

This has got to stop. This creates lack of activity in "sleep mode" aka AFK and eve is suppose about activity!
Stop forever cloak AFK. Reduce it to lets say an Hour interval where the person has to recloak manually or something.

This also creates activity from the players as they can be killed of they forget to recloak.

CCP talk about making eve a better place. You dont need a cloak that lasts forever.
Stop this "Uber" afk cloak once and for all and eve will be a better game!
It will reward activity rather than AFK!

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:32:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 12:12:42
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 19/08/2011 12:11:58
One thing we have to concider that we havent in afk cloaking is the lack of doing nothing from many parties.

There are times when someone is ratting and someon comes into system and then the ratter warps off and cloaks. The hunter also warps and cloaks for a while. Now we got two parties unactive cloaked for a whole day in a system doing nothing and waiting for each other to uncloak.

This has got to stop. This creates lack of activity in "sleep mode" aka AFK and eve is suppose about activity!
Stop forever cloak AFK. Reduce it to lets say an Hour interval where the person has to recloak manually or something.

This also creates activity from the players as they can be killed of they forget to recloak.

CCP talk about making eve a better place. You dont need a cloak that lasts forever.
Stop this "Uber" afk cloak once and for all and eve will be a better game!
It will reward activity rather than AFK!


Nice regurgipost. Again, the only thing keeping you from ratting is a lack of balls.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.22 07:12:00 - [132]
 

As I've stated earlier (yes, feel free to say 'regurgipost' to this one...) and it seems to have dropped under the table is the fact, that a cloaker with no visible activity may still be not as idle as it seems.

He can watch the local himself. Maybe he can use the directional scan, even if it means to decloak for a few seconds. Maybe he maps out the system and makes a horde of safespot bookmarks. Thing is -- all of it with virtually no risk of being detected and shot out of the ship.

EVERY ONE of the activities stated is valuable in itself, If someone watches (or lets a bot log) the local for days or weeks, he has a pretty good idea of when the system in question is likely to be populated or empty and a rather complete member roster of the local corporations and their member's favourite ship types.

And all of that just for free? That bugs me the most, as it is a glaring example of the risk/reward balance being skewed, even if you can't easily measure the value of the information and bookmarks in hard ISK.


Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 08:31:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Rina Asanari

And all of that just for free? That bugs me the most, as it is a glaring example of the risk/reward balance being skewed, even if you can't easily measure the value of the information and bookmarks in hard ISK.


who said there have to be risk at everything?? There are tons of activities with little risk but high rewards, farming anomalies is one of them, easy as f*ck but very safe due to local.
Flying through space in a properly equipped ship should have have little risk too, its not you gaining massive rewards just out of being there - space is for all.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.24 10:01:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Rina Asanari on 24/08/2011 10:03:28
Originally by: Robert Caldera

who said there have to be risk at everything?? There are tons of activities with little risk but high rewards, farming anomalies is one of them, easy as f*ck but very safe due to local.


Common sense and and game balance issues state that there shouldn't be any option/activity to choose from that is risk-free. Take the simplest example, "rock, paper, scissors" - for every choice you make there are three outcomes: You win, you lose and a draw. Changing the game that there is an option where you cannot lose makes the game rather senseless. And exactly that happened on introducing the possibility to stay cloaked and undetectable indefinitely.

And, you did say "very safe" and "little risk". This is not equal to "no risk". And in fact, even hisec mining and cargo hauling is somehow risky just because every moment you're out there you face the possibility to be suicide ganked at the very least.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.24 11:40:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Rina Asanari

Common sense and and game balance issues state that there shouldn't be any option/activity to choose from that is risk-free. Take the simplest example, "rock, paper, scissors" - for every choice you make there are three outcomes: You win, you lose and a draw. Changing the game that there is an option where you cannot lose makes the game rather senseless. And exactly that happened on introducing the possibility to stay cloaked and undetectable indefinitely.



Someone who's cloaked indefinitely is living a life of a draw. It's the ultimate no risk/no reward. Until they uncloak and act they're pretty much nothing. The solution is pretty simple. When you cloak, you disappear from local. This balances the excessive intel local gives. Counter this with a 30 or 60 second delay in being able to lite a cyno after decloaking, this takes away the unfair advantage of being able to hot drop on someone who's completely unaware.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:55:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 24/08/2011 14:58:31

Originally by: Rina Asanari

Common sense and and game balance issues state that there shouldn't be any option/activity to choose from that is risk-free.

my common sense tells me there hasnt be a risk neccessarily, if there is no reward. And cloaking itself provides no reward, the reward is maybe a result of patience and time invested in cloaking and is only available to you if you finally decloak and fight something, but it provides no reward for itself. So only little risk.
Forthermore, risk does not mean there is a loss of something implied, it only means if you doing it wrong, you might lose something. Does a plexer, who is making billions of ISK in few hours PvE have any risk? If he is doing it right (proper ship, proper fit, local awareness), there is basically absolutely no risk for a huge reward, he wont loose anything as long as he is doing it right, exactly as the cloaker when he decided to attack.


Originally by: Rina Asanari
And, you did say "very safe" and "little risk". This is not equal to "no risk".

in the exact definition, cloaking isnt risk free. You can die if you cloak and get decloaked near gate or other places where people used to be sometimes; damn, even on a safespot one might bumping into you either directly or indirectly while warping through you - yes I account the accidental decloaks on safe spots which occur from times to times to this.
Concluding from all that cloaking is far from being riskfree but has only "little risk" associated with it. Gaining fruits of your work requires you to drop the cloak, what you are then rewarded for, not for endless afk cloaking, when you arent even gathering any intel.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:30:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 24/08/2011 18:48:35
Originally by: Rina Asanari
Common sense and and game balance issues state that there shouldn't be any option/activity to choose from that is risk-free. Take the simplest example, "rock, paper, scissors" - for every choice you make there are three outcomes: You win, you lose and a draw. Changing the game that there is an option where you cannot lose makes the game rather senseless. And exactly that happened on introducing the possibility to stay cloaked and undetectable indefinitely.
If you want to use the risk free card, you should apply it to both parties while they are cloaked or AFK cloaked.

But let's go with the rock, paper, scissors. What weapon can we use against local? It tells you who I am and gives you ample opportunity to safe up, when I arrive. So how do you combat such a powerful tool?
Well to try and subvert it's 100%, risk free, instant intel, people have taken to AFK cloaking. It's not at all perfect but it works on some, as can be seen by all the whine threads on this subject.

Is AFK cloaking a perfect weapon against local? Well no, because it relies upon the targets reactions. This is why it's referred to as psychological warfare. They do nothing and hope for the best. They may return every now and then to see if you've decided to risk your PvE fit ships, or un-tanked industrials. If this turns out to be the case, then the target group pays with losses. But if they are smart they will change tact, use PvP fit ships and form gangs with friends in other systems.

Is this always possible and successful? Well no, many often find themselves alone without friends online an if they rat alone, they take that risk. Plus there is the chance that Burn Eden or some such group, will hot drop them with Black Ops. But such is the life in null sec and low sec.

Does this mean the cloak is broken? Well no, because each mechanic is separately responsible for building the whole picture. But at it's core is the local chat channel, as it provides the mechanic to use while AFK.
So if you are serious about balance, then you need to take local into the equation as local makes AFK cloaking possible. Cause (local) and effect (AFK cloaking).

I and many others do not advocate a complete removal of local, without some other replacement package. We also understand that cloaking should be looked at with that replacement package. But not to completely nullify it's role.
At this moment almost every thread about AFK cloaking, only wants to nerf the cloak. Their ideas also impact great upon the active cloaker and completely dismiss and talk of curbing locals intel power.

But we now know local is changing, but how and what other changes are to accompany it's new form, are yet to be seen.

Originally by: Rina Asanari
And, you did say "very safe" and "little risk". This is not equal to "no risk". And in fact, even hisec mining and cargo hauling is somehow risky just because every moment you're out there you face the possibility to be suicide ganked at the very least.
One could argue Hisec to be a far riskier situation, because local doesn't help you at all. Anyone could attack you at any time and with so many neutrals in local, you just wouldn't see it coming.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.25 07:12:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Someone who's cloaked indefinitely is living a life of a draw. It's the ultimate no risk/no reward. Until they uncloak and act they're pretty much nothing.


I differ on the "no reward" part. As I've said earlier, there are quite a number of things a cloaker can do even if he is seemingly AFK. Keeping track of the local (and that's why I'd object to removing cloakers from local as well) is the least someone (or something) can do.

And a cloaker sitting right next to a station or a gate where someone may run into him is just plain stupid or careless and shouldn't be taken into account when talking about risks.

No. Removing cloakers from local would make matters even worse. Sure, that would remove the harassment effect, but so far I think I've never even taken that into account.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.25 10:27:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 25/08/2011 10:29:08
Originally by: Rina Asanari

I differ on the "no reward" part. As I've said earlier, there are quite a number of things a cloaker can do even if he is seemingly AFK.

seemingly AFK is not AFK, he's just cloaked!


Originally by: Rina Asanari

And a cloaker sitting right next to a station or a gate where someone may run into him is just plain stupid or careless and shouldn't be taken into account when talking about risks.

risk is risk and includes stupidity, carelessness and coincidences as well, all kinds of things killing you are part of the risk.
To your definition of risk, a plexer, who is doing fine, has no risks also... but they make billions in full safety and should be adressed first. A cloaker does not get any ISK just by cloaking.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.25 13:25:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Rina Asanari
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Someone who's cloaked indefinitely is living a life of a draw. It's the ultimate no risk/no reward. Until they uncloak and act they're pretty much nothing.


I differ on the "no reward" part. As I've said earlier, there are quite a number of things a cloaker can do even if he is seemingly AFK. Keeping track of the local (and that's why I'd object to removing cloakers from local as well) is the least someone (or something) can do.

And a cloaker sitting right next to a station or a gate where someone may run into him is just plain stupid or careless and shouldn't be taken into account when talking about risks.

No. Removing cloakers from local would make matters even worse. Sure, that would remove the harassment effect, but so far I think I've never even taken that into account.


Not if removing them from local also removes thier ability to view local. Think about it. You cloak, not seen in local, can't see local. Can only gather intel with the dscan or any probes they already have out, or visually.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.08.25 14:12:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Killer Gandry on 25/08/2011 14:13:45
ToS rule 16:
You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Brings us to ToS rule 1:
You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing CCP Employees from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CCP Employee; or implying favoritism by a CCP Employee.



Basicly if someone brings an alt into a system in a cloaked ship this is meant to cause distress on the ones on that system.
By logging in daily and then cloak up at some safespot and go afk can be called harrassement because the afk cloaker knows exactly what his action will bring forward.
By his constant afk cloaking in said system he keeps forcing people to another playstyle without actually playing himself and thus at some point there is a clear harrasement without participating in the game with said account activly.

Thus the claim that AFK cloaking in a system for a longer period of time can be handled as harrassement is a viable and plausible explenation.

It's also an exploit because the one afk cloaking an alt in a system does it for benefits, be this by making people team up and try to counter his afk cloaked alt, team up and be alert the whole time ( we all know that alertness wears down after a prolonged period of time, this is scientific proven) or to drive them out of said system and find another system to continue his/her gamestyle.
Thus someone is getting a benefit by exploiting a flaw in the gamedesign and can be brought forward as an exploit.

Discuss that. I bet the discussion will be a troll reply or 5 within the next 10-15 replies.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.25 14:18:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Edited by: Killer Gandry on 25/08/2011 14:13:45
ToS rule 16:
You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Brings us to ToS rule 1:
You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing CCP Employees from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CCP Employee; or implying favoritism by a CCP Employee.



Basicly if someone brings an alt into a system in a cloaked ship this is meant to cause distress on the ones on that system.
By logging in daily and then cloak up at some safespot and go afk can be called harrassement because the afk cloaker knows exactly what his action will bring forward.
By his constant afk cloaking in said system he keeps forcing people to another playstyle without actually playing himself and thus at some point there is a clear harrasement without participating in the game with said account activly.

Thus the claim that AFK cloaking in a system for a longer period of time can be handled as harrassement is a viable and plausible explenation.

It's also an exploit because the one afk cloaking an alt in a system does it for benefits, be this by making people team up and try to counter his afk cloaked alt, team up and be alert the whole time ( we all know that alertness wears down after a prolonged period of time, this is scientific proven) or to drive them out of said system and find another system to continue his/her gamestyle.
Thus someone is getting a benefit by exploiting a flaw in the gamedesign and can be brought forward as an exploit.

Discuss that. I bet the discussion will be a troll reply or 5 within the next 10-15 replies.



wow, nicelly done. thumbs up

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:09:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry

Thus the claim that AFK cloaking in a system for a longer period of time can be handled as harrassement is a viable and plausible explenation.

if this is true, then petition the dude. Good luck with that.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
It's also an exploit because the one afk cloaking an alt in a system does it for benefits, be this by making people team up and try to counter his afk cloaked alt, team up and be alert the whole time ( we all know that alertness wears down after a prolonged period of time, this is scientific proven) or to drive them out of said system and find another system to continue his/her gamestyle.

how is playing the game = exploiting?
Is it not a normal behavior to bring the opponent into a disadvantage?
I come to a system you are living in, I cloak up.. for your disadvantage.
I stay there intending to wear up your defense attempts, stay cloaked to your disadvantage, wait for an opportunity.
Finally, I decloak and point you TO YOUR DISADVANTAGE! Then I shoot missiles at your ship, to your disadvantage also, till you pop.
This is how the game is played, one way at least. No exploiting, everything I do or not do to your disadvantage is the primary goal of this game (as any other out there).

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Thus someone is getting a benefit by exploiting a flaw in the gamedesign and can be brought forward as an exploit.

petition it, if you're right CCP will punish those guys.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Discuss that. I bet the discussion will be a troll reply or 5 within the next 10-15 replies.


has been discussed a trillion of times, you guys come up with this over and over again, ignoring everything what has been said already.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:15:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 25/08/2011 15:18:20
Originally by: Killer Gandry
ToS rule 16:
You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world.

Brings us to ToS rule 1:
You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing CCP Employees from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CCP Employee; or implying favoritism by a CCP Employee.
The reaction of the locals is down to them. The AFK cloaker is simply showing in local, hoping to subvert it's intel. But it relies upon the target to react, hence why it's not always successful.

That's why it's called psychological warfare, it all happens in the brain of the target whilst they are AFK.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Basicly if someone brings an alt into a system in a cloaked ship this is meant to cause distress on the ones on that system.
Meant too, but not necessarily going to happen.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
By logging in daily and then cloak up at some safespot and go afk can be called harrassement because the afk cloaker knows exactly what his action will bring forward.
He hopes it will disrupt yes, but he cannot force this disruption. Sure people may have to change ship fittings and form gangs, but is that such a bad thing? Don't you believe you should adapt and use PvP fit ships for a while?

Originally by: Killer Gandry
By his constant afk cloaking in said system he keeps forcing people to another playstyle without actually playing himself and thus at some point there is a clear harrasement without participating in the game with said account activly.
Again, he cannot force anyone. It's always down the the target group and how they react. He is basically trying to subvert local, as it's 100%, risk free, instant intel is telling you he is there. How else can he remove some of locals intel power?

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Thus the claim that AFK cloaking in a system for a longer period of time can be handled as harrassement is a viable and plausible explenation.
In an emotional way yes, but not a factual one.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
It's also an exploit because the one afk cloaking an alt in a system does it for benefits, be this by making people team up and try to counter his afk cloaked alt, team up and be alert the whole time ( we all know that alertness wears down after a prolonged period of time, this is scientific proven) or to drive them out of said system and find another system to continue his/her gamestyle.
Thus someone is getting a benefit by exploiting a flaw in the gamedesign and can be brought forward as an exploit.

Discuss that. I bet the discussion will be a troll reply or 5 within the next 10-15 replies.

There is of course, one main problem with all of your post. CCP have never deemed it harassment, abuse, interference or an exploit.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:51:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera

how is playing the game = exploiting?



I beg to differ on that point. By logging in, cloaking up at a safespot and then go afk on that account for days in a row isn't playing the game.
I don't know how your definition of "playing" is, but that involves normally participating actively.

Originally by: Robert Caldera

Is it not a normal behavior to bring the opponent into a disadvantage?
I come to a system you are living in, I cloak up.. for your disadvantage.
I stay there intending to wear up your defense attempts, stay cloaked to your disadvantage, wait for an opportunity.
Finally, I decloak and point you TO YOUR DISADVANTAGE! Then I shoot missiles at your ship, to your disadvantage also, till you pop.
This is how the game is played, one way at least. No exploiting, everything I do or not do to your disadvantage is the primary goal of this game (as any other out there).


Ah, but by bringing in an alt in a covert ship, cloak up and warp off to a safespot and remain there for days or weeks can easy be deemed harrassement because you are abusing the local intell channel by expressing you are there but cloaked up and there is nothing you can do about it so suck it up.
If you were actively looking or waiting for victims then yes, you are participating in the game.
But you and I know that this isn't always the reasoning behind this cloaking and often is nothing more than abusing the system to cause grief and distress onto others.
Prove to me that isn't the case without a doubt and I will forcefully defend your opinions and statements with zeal and vigor.

Originally by: Robert Caldera

petition it, if you're right CCP will punish those guys.



Alrighty I will petition it then and bring my case to CCP. I will use their own rules against them. That should be fun.

Originally by: Robert Caldera

has been discussed a trillion of times, you guys come up with this over and over again, ignoring everything what has been said already.


That is simply because CCP's biased vieuws on their precious little sandbox which benefits certain people ingame.
I for one am not the kind of guy who roles over as soon as he hears a NO but keeps arguing till someone proves to me without a doubt I am wrong. And all the replies saying it's working as intended haven't proven a thing.
All EW has some sort of countermeasure to it that can be activly or passivly used. However afk cloaking has no countermeasure.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:59:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry

I beg to differ on that point. By logging in, cloaking up at a safespot and then go afk on that account for days in a row isn't playing the game.
I don't know how your definition of "playing" is, but that involves normally participating actively.

you know, you can set a skill training, go afk/logoff.
Install an invention job, go afk or logoff.
Install a manufactoring job for the next 4 weeks, go afk, log off.
Create a contract for 2 weeks, go afk, log off.
Put a market order into the market for 3 months, go afk, log off.
Those are running in the background as you are afk/logged off, exactly as afk cloaking as well. Eve is full of afk activities; afk cloaking is just one of them, requires you being online however.

Originally by: Killer Gandry

Ah, but by bringing in an alt in a covert ship, cloak up and warp off to a safespot and remain there for days or weeks can easy be deemed harrassement because you are abusing the local intell channel by expressing you are there but cloaked up and there is nothing you can do about it so suck it up.

yeah... then, you know, go to CCP and express your opinion, till they dont classify this style of play as exploiting or harassment, it is not.

Originally by: Killer Gandry

If you were actively looking or waiting for victims then yes, you are participating in the game.

waiting for your enemies getting tired of constant defense fleets and wearing up is part of that. As (afk)cloaker you sometimes look for possible targets, yes. Sole afk cloaking is pretty pointless for its own.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
abusing the system to cause grief and distress onto others.

this word again.. *sigh*; until CCP does not classify it as such, it is not.

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Alrighty I will petition it then and bring my case to CCP. I will use their own rules against them. That should be fun.

perfectly, let us know how it's gone. THXBAI

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:11:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera

you know, you can set a skill training, go afk/logoff.
Install an invention job, go afk or logoff.
Install a manufactoring job for the next 4 weeks, go afk, log off.
Create a contract for 2 weeks, go afk, log off.
Put a market order into the market for 3 months, go afk, log off.
Those are running in the background as you are afk/logged off, exactly as afk cloaking as well. Eve is full of afk activities; afk cloaking is just one of them, requires you being online however.




Now let's see.
Install an invention job, go afk or logoff.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Install a manufactoring job for the next 4 weeks, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Create a contract for 2 weeks, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Put a market order into the market for 3 months, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.

afk cloaking
Direct impact of other people's game experience

Nah, I do see a difference. A difference you just refuse to see because it's commonly accepted as a tool by a certain kind of players/non-players.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:16:00 - [148]
 

dude, this is a combat tactic, so ofc it affects other players, what doesnt render it less legal.

And ofc do other activities affect people, my contracts are in concurrence with others, as the market orders or manufactoring/invention jobs since I'm acquiring goods from that and use them for something else, affecting other players with them as well. The effect is just kinda different.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:30:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Robert Caldera

you know, you can set a skill training, go afk/logoff.
Install an invention job, go afk or logoff.
Install a manufactoring job for the next 4 weeks, go afk, log off.
Create a contract for 2 weeks, go afk, log off.
Put a market order into the market for 3 months, go afk, log off.
Those are running in the background as you are afk/logged off, exactly as afk cloaking as well. Eve is full of afk activities; afk cloaking is just one of them, requires you being online however.




Now let's see.
Install an invention job, go afk or logoff.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Install a manufactoring job for the next 4 weeks, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Create a contract for 2 weeks, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.
Put a market order into the market for 3 months, go afk, log off.
No direct impact on others people's game experience.

afk cloaking
Direct impact of other people's game experience

Nah, I do see a difference. A difference you just refuse to see because it's commonly accepted as a tool by a certain kind of players/non-players.


So, if I sit out at a long-range bookmark in an uncloaked ship, it's OK then?

Or is it that I have the nerve to sit out in space in your system without permission, making the bots nervous?

How about if I get together with a couple of buddies from different time zones and we take turns? None of us are AFK for significant periods, and your system is still camped 23.5/7.

Oooh! Maybe I can log on in an uncloaked ship during prime-time, spam dscan, and logoffski if I see combat probes!

For every adaptation there is a counter adaptation. If I want to disrupt space activities in a system, I can find ways to do so.

Take away local intel, I'll announce myself.
Take away local chat entirely, I'll blow up vulnerable ships at frequent enough intervals to keep people worried.
Take away cloaking, I'll use difficult to probe uncloaked ships.

In short, complaining about AFK cloaking is worse than useless, if CCP should actually implement any of the proposed "fixes" life for the people bothered by the AFK cloakers gets more dangerous.

But hey, if they really want it so badly Rolling Eyes


Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:37:00 - [150]
 

With all the honesty and respect.
I believe people are rather hang up on the whole bot thing. Yes its a problem.
Report them! Killing it wont get rid of them but report them will!




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