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OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:21:00 - [91]
 

This isn't a topic about local. It is about adding risk to going AFK when cloaking. Sadly this is not as easy as when CCP boosted CONCORD.

The destroyer module will fix the issue while adding a new level of gameplay while protecting those who are active from any serious effects. And the Winter expansion is the perfect time to make it happen along with the other changes.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:32:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
This isn't a topic about local. It is about adding risk to going AFK when cloaking. Sadly this is not as easy as when CCP boosted CONCORD.

nothing wrong with afking in the first line, so no "fix" required for something whats not broken.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
The destroyer module will fix the issue while adding a new level of gameplay while protecting those who are active from any serious effects. And the Winter expansion is the perfect time to make it happen along with the other changes.


There is nothing to fix, get over it.
Nerfing afk cloaking would mean safe territories for everyone because there is no way to disrupt activities over longer periods of time, no asymmetric warfare etc. Safe ratting havens would be a result of that, not a viable change.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:33:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
This isn't a topic about local. It is about adding risk to going AFK when cloaking. Sadly this is not as easy as when CCP boosted CONCORD.

The destroyer module will fix the issue while adding a new level of gameplay while protecting those who are active from any serious effects. And the Winter expansion is the perfect time to make it happen along with the other changes.



You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible. You notice how you never hear complaints about AFK cloakers in wormholes? Without Local, we simply assume danger's always there and adapt our playstyle to incorporate that fact.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:37:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst

You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible.

no, local REQUIRES afk cloaker!

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:38:00 - [95]
 

Adding risk to AFK cloaking is the point of my discussion in the various topics.

Adding risk should only affect AFK cloaking not the ones who are active in hostile systems. This is my goal and why once I heard of the idea of the destoryer I thought of ways it could be improved.

That is why I think a module for the tech 1 or destroyer hulls that is.

A) Expensive
B) Skill intensive
C) Very slow

Will allow active cloakers to continue their interdiction, combat, or intel operations while adding the currently needed risk to walking away from the client while cloaked.

It needs to be something that requires serious funds and skills to use. That way you have it where people would hire people skilled at the practice and even provide a target for those trying to get in a little AFK cloaking after the fact. A whole new level of gameplay and small combat.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:42:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Adding risk to AFK cloaking is the point of my discussion in the various topics.

Adding risk should only affect AFK cloaking not the ones who are active in hostile systems.

yeah, adding risk for afk cloakers would remove them effectively. However, since they ARE the risk for ratters and other unkillable carebears due to local, risk for a risk means no risk anymore for those people -> ratting havens -> not acceptable game change.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:43:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
This isn't a topic about local. It is about adding risk to going AFK when cloaking. Sadly this is not as easy as when CCP boosted CONCORD.

The destroyer module will fix the issue while adding a new level of gameplay while protecting those who are active from any serious effects. And the Winter expansion is the perfect time to make it happen along with the other changes.



You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible. You notice how you never hear complaints about AFK cloakers in wormholes? Without Local, we simply assume danger's always there and adapt our playstyle to incorporate that fact.


You can AFK cloak in a Wormhole just as easy as in anywhere else. My idea would be just as viable for wormhole operations which while completely different from other areas of the game. Still have things such as AFK cloaking.

Ha think about it. Wormhole corps hiring probe mercs to find those AFK cloaking. If the expense is so high that its not something every corp just has it will become a market for those wanting to invest and gain the skills.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:45:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
You can AFK cloak in a Wormhole just as easy as in anywhere else.

yeah but there is no point to. You could as well just log off since the enemy cant detect this and conclude your activity pattern from that, in contrast to systems with local, where you HAVE to afk cloak in order to hide your activity pattern.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:47:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Adding risk to AFK cloaking is the point of my discussion in the various topics.

Adding risk should only affect AFK cloaking not the ones who are active in hostile systems.

yeah, adding risk for afk cloakers would remove them effectively. However, since they ARE the risk for ratters and other unkillable carebears due to local, risk for a risk means no risk anymore for those people -> ratting havens -> not acceptable game change.


Active cloaking will still be as viable as it ever was. If to the second intel is needed a simple off grid warp off point would allow a quick return once the cloak cycle is complete.

Active cloakers will still be able to do the damage they currently do. This makes this an acceptable and gameplay adding change. While avoiding things that harm active cloakers such as cloak fuel bays.

The only change needs to be to add that bit of risk to make you think twice about cloaking AFK.

"Does my enemy possess this destroyer module?"
"Do they have the ability to ask or hire someone with the module to come in?"

AFK cloaking would still happen in some areas. Tho active cloaking would be the new norm. Active cloakers will be the ones doing the intel, combat, interdiction operations.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:50:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
You can AFK cloak in a Wormhole just as easy as in anywhere else.

yeah but there is no point to. You could as well just log off since the enemy cant detect this and conclude your activity pattern from that, in contrast to systems with local, where you HAVE to afk cloak in order to hide your activity pattern.


Very simple. Use active cloak teams. That way you do the most to affect your enemy while still having risk if you go AFK. Tho that is a tactics issue and not the scope of this topic.

I want to make sure I only suggest things that add risk to AFK cloaking. Not active cloaking. If CCP adds things like a cloak fuel bay it would also disrupt active cloakers who do not need to be affected. Just the AFK ones.

Add the risk for walking away don't harm the ones doing it actively.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:51:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ingvar Angst

You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible.

no, local REQUIRES afk cloaker!

Only if local runs in automatic playerlist update mode.

Delayed update mode does away with the instant-intel feature of local without eliminating the communication capability.

Really, have the people proposing eliminating local actually thought through all the consequences? I suspect it involves a fantasy scenario with an unlimited supply of helpless victims.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:55:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

Active cloaking will still be as viable as it ever was.

not read the rest of the post, since your idea fails right here.

The core point of afk cloaking is exactly this, you can do this afk. Just go somewhere, cloak up, come later and kill someone. Sitting actively in a system is not effective at all, noone would do this because the enemy has always the information about your activity (if you're moving you're a threat), which afk cloaking is all about to hide (main aspect).
Either you're not afk and a threat or you will be scanned and killed.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:57:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ingvar Angst

You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible.

no, local REQUIRES afk cloaker!

Only if local runs in automatic playerlist update mode.

Delayed update mode does away with the instant-intel feature of local without eliminating the communication capability.

Really, have the people proposing eliminating local actually thought through all the consequences? I suspect it involves a fantasy scenario with an unlimited supply of helpless victims.


As another pointed out. Local as it stands now was a stopgap. I don't think many proposing "remove local" realize that CCP will replace it when they can with a more advanced intel tool that will likely do the opposite of what they hope.

Yet local is not the point of this conversation. It is about finding a way to add risk to AFK cloaking without harming the active cloakers.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:02:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
You can't separate AFK cloaking and Local. Local makes AFK cloaking possible. You notice how you never hear complaints about AFK cloakers in wormholes? Without Local, we simply assume danger's always there and adapt our playstyle to incorporate that fact.


You can AFK cloak in a Wormhole just as easy as in anywhere else.
That sentence alone, shows what little understanding of this you have.

I'm starting to wonder who you actually are. You remind me of a recent AFK whiner, that spammed these forums not long ago. He was as dishonest and clueless as you.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:02:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

You can AFK cloak in a Wormhole just as easy as in anywhere else. My idea would be just as viable for wormhole operations which while completely different from other areas of the game. Still have things such as AFK cloaking.

Ha think about it. Wormhole corps hiring probe mercs to find those AFK cloaking. If the expense is so high that its not something every corp just has it will become a market for those wanting to invest and gain the skills.


Shocked Wow, I've never had to respond to so much stupid before. I'm stunned.

There's no local in wormholes, unless you make the mistake of actually talking in it. As such, you don't log in, see a "neut" in local, freak out and post stupid **** on the forums. You go about your business, stay alert, and you you find someone is indeed in your hole yo uadapt your tactics a bit to compensate for that. Tank your haulers better. Keep an eye on dscan. Use combats.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.08.17 16:30:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Terasl Tsuruomo
CCP has been talking about nerfing AFK cloakers forever, yet they nerf anomalies first. Umm, priorities? Currently it is impossible to stop them from hotdropping at any random time because you can't bait them 24/7 considering they are there for WEEKS at a time. Even if you bait them, GL catching stealth bomber gangs. Also, if I'm baiting 24/7, how am I supposed to make isk?

Oh well, guess I should stick to high-sec in my faction fit marauder to make isk, with literally no risks whatsoever.


Cloaking is not the problem. The free warning you get from local they are there in the first place is the problem. Local is being addressed. You should always be ready to defend yourself

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:11:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Yet local is not the point of this conversation. It is about finding a way to add risk to AFK cloaking without harming the active cloakers.


yes, but I still need to know how a client that has nobody at the keyboard is making you rage so much.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.18 03:26:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: OMGWTFResearch on 18/08/2011 03:27:22
If local is being "addressed" and you feel CCP will never change cloaking mechanics then why are you here? Again same stuff I heard before CCP buffed CONCORD.

Because you know the Winter expansion is the best time in years to tackle the issue of AFK cloaking. You can feel your days of virtually free kills slipping away. So you pro-AFk guys rage on the forums.

Well for those who are serious about solving the issue I would like to again quote the idea so that we do not end up disrupting active cloaking.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Hansipoo
So how about AFK cloaking? Is small gang "disruption" actually going to be active? Or are big alliances still going to have an afk cloaker in every system?


We have proposed an idea to remove the incentive to walk away from your computer cloaked in a system for long periods of time while protecting those who are actively in the client using the cloak.

My part of the proposal would be a very high cost, very high skill module or probe launcher that only fits on a destroyer hull. A person using this module would "scan" a random point in space generated every time a cloak is activated (And goes away when it shuts down obviously) This would be FAR FAR FAR slower than scanning for ships and would only have the effect at the end of a decloak. This will mean it cant be used to camp areas to keep any cloaker out.

To add extra balance and to prevent any major disruption to the intended active uses. A warning would come up once the scan process has started with a final warning soon before the decloak actually happens. (perhaps 15-30 seconds after point is found) An active cloaker would simply warp away. Recloak and the process starts again.

You can see how this protects active cloakers while removing the incentive to go AFK. This would fix the issue and help improve the system and the game itself.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:40:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Terasl Tsuruomo
CCP has been talking about nerfing AFK cloakers forever, yet they nerf anomalies first. Umm, priorities? Currently it is impossible to stop them from hotdropping at any random time because you can't bait them 24/7 considering they are there for WEEKS at a time. Even if you bait them, GL catching stealth bomber gangs. Also, if I'm baiting 24/7, how am I supposed to make isk?

Oh well, guess I should stick to high-sec in my faction fit marauder to make isk, with literally no risks whatsoever.


what you mean is the usual suspect posters (players) have been talking about this forever. I'll say it again, the cloaked need to be removed from local. You should never know they are there unless you scan their probes or unless they decloak. Remove them from local and you need never be intimidated again.

What nerf are you suggesting for the cloaked? (not afk cloaked since from your post you are not talking about afkers...) afkers do not drop bombs.


Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:51:00 - [110]
 

Thing is, is there any reason why someone can simply log in, cloak and walk away from the computer for the next 23.5 hours? I think that's countrary to the often-mentioned line "nowhere is safe" even these people justifying AFK cloakers throw around.

So, the only correct response would be that cloaking your ship should/may grant you some safety, but not complete safety from being attacked.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:36:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Because you know the Winter expansion is the best time in years to tackle the issue of AFK cloaking. You can feel your days of virtually free kills slipping away. So you pro-AFk guys rage on the forums.


I am still struggling how somebody that isn't even at the computer can kill somebody in this game.

that is unless he's a bot. in that case you're doing it wrong.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:56:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/08/2011 08:56:35
Originally by: Rina Asanari
Thing is, is there any reason why someone can simply log in, cloak and walk away from the computer for the next 23.5 hours?

its purpose is denying you the information when the treat is available. A usual non-afk player in this game is monitored by local, an afk player is monitored by local as well but since he's not at computer, the information the local gives you about him is less useful for ya. Its the whole point. He may be there, or not, even if you are in local all the time. You actually know how its working...

Originally by: Rina Asanari
I think that's countrary to the often-mentioned line "nowhere is safe" even these people justifying AFK cloakers throw around.

Nobody is safe, unless docked, cloaked or logged off.

Namof Zomgbag
Posted - 2011.08.18 11:43:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

I am still struggling how somebody that isn't even at the computer can kill somebody in this game.

that is unless he's a bot. in that case you're doing it wrong.


I tested this in pure blind, in EL8, earlier this year. I logged in, cloaked up, went afk.

On the following day I came back. To my biggest dissapointment I hadn't scored any kills while I was afk.

Sad

Based on this experience, I'm ready to believe that Grimpak is right. You need to be at your keyboard to get kills.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.08.18 11:53:00 - [114]
 

Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around.

AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:38:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around. AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.


Welcome to life in the wormholes! You know what... you adapt your gameplay to compensate. You really do. Clicking DScan, for example, becomes an absent minded habit. Being at your computer while mining... you do that too. None of this "auto-dock if a neut enters local" crap... you're active, awake and aware, and you survive.

Usually.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:08:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Removing local will just make the afk cloakers a bigger problem - because then you don't even have a warning and have to fear being attacked even when they are not around.

AFK cloakers are feared because they afk so long they manage to catch someone being lulled into false security, and then going back to being afk again... You will give the cloakers a free first kill and then the added bonus of having everyone closeby fear the cloaker for upto several days without reason. Also without warning it will be difficult to form a welcome committe and greet the stranger resulting in less interaction.


If local is "removed" then being afk seems kinda pointless to me.If no one can see you why stay afk, I would use that time to hunt targets instead.

That makes them active cloakers instead of afk cloakers thus solving that problem.

An enemy will inevaribly attack on 2 occasions. When he is ready, and when you are not. That should hold true even in EVE. The way it set up in .0 now favours the unprepared. As stated earlier.

If an afk cloaker is present suspect a fleet. It should not be that easy in .0 space.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:14:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 18/08/2011 15:14:50
Originally by: Lucien Visteen
If local is "removed" then being afk seems kinda pointless to me.If no one can see you why stay afk, I would use that time to hunt targets instead.

That makes them active cloakers instead of afk cloakers thus solving that problem.

An enemy will inevaribly attack on 2 occasions. When he is ready, and when you are not. That should hold true even in EVE. The way it set up in .0 now favours the unprepared. As stated earlier.

If an afk cloaker is present suspect a fleet. It should not be that easy in .0 space.


One actual reason... watch lists. You catch someone in your hole, for example, you put them on the watch list and see when they're active or not. Yeah, we had a guy afk while in the game doing that... however some quick research showed us he was from England, so it was easy to determine his approximate hours of activity etc. and he wasn't really an issue. Silly stealth bombers and their blogs... Very Happy We adapted to his presence. Tank the haulers a bit, high-speed PI, run sites as a group or in vessels a stealth bomber doesn't really threaten. He moved on and so did we.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:22:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 18/08/2011 15:14:50
Originally by: Lucien Visteen
If local is "removed" then being afk seems kinda pointless to me.If no one can see you why stay afk, I would use that time to hunt targets instead.

That makes them active cloakers instead of afk cloakers thus solving that problem.

An enemy will inevaribly attack on 2 occasions. When he is ready, and when you are not. That should hold true even in EVE. The way it set up in .0 now favours the unprepared. As stated earlier.

If an afk cloaker is present suspect a fleet. It should not be that easy in .0 space.


One actual reason... watch lists. You catch someone in your hole, for example, you put them on the watch list and see when they're active or not. Yeah, we had a guy afk while in the game doing that... however some quick research showed us he was from England, so it was easy to determine his approximate hours of activity etc. and he wasn't really an issue. Silly stealth bombers and their blogs... Very Happy We adapted to his presence. Tank the haulers a bit, high-speed PI, run sites as a group or in vessels a stealth bomber doesn't really threaten. He moved on and so did we.
In other words, you gathered more intel, you used the tools already provided by CCP, adapted and carried on playing.

Well played sir. o7

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:36:00 - [119]
 

True. the watch list is a very handy tool to track when a player is online. Used it myself when hunting players roaming in our space (since they logged off all the time Evil or Very Mad, as soon as they came back we where hot on the trail.).

If you mean that it is one way to track players if local is removed then yes it could to some extent. But they could be everywhere, from the other end of the galaxy to /insert tf2 spy voice/ Right behind you.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:41:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Lucien Visteen
True. the watch list is a very handy tool to track when a player is online. Used it myself when hunting players roaming in our space (since they logged off all the time Evil or Very Mad, as soon as they came back we where hot on the trail.).

If you mean that it is one way to track players if local is removed then yes it could to some extent. But they could be everywhere, from the other end of the galaxy to /insert tf2 spy voice/ Right behind you.


That's why you do intel. Have agents see where they are for example. Learn their patterns. Hell, Google them! That's how we found that the stealth bomber in our hole blogged about his exploits, which gave us a ton of intel. Toughen your ships up. Team up. Grow a pair and play. It's not hard to do.


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