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Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:39:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What exactly is the counter to a hotdrop?


you know, there are ships involved.. shooty shooty is the counter.
For the surprise moment, there is no counter, what do you expect?

I did say practical counter.

How many ships do you keep on standby just in case somebody hotdrops you?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:55:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What exactly is the counter to a hotdrop?


you know, there are ships involved.. shooty shooty is the counter.
For the surprise moment, there is no counter, what do you expect?

I did say practical counter.

How many ships do you keep on standby just in case somebody hotdrops you?

you mean easy counter? there is none. this is why it works and should work.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:15:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What exactly is the counter to a hotdrop?


you know, there are ships involved.. shooty shooty is the counter.
For the surprise moment, there is no counter, what do you expect?

I did say practical counter.

How many ships do you keep on standby just in case somebody hotdrops you?

you mean easy counter? there is none. this is why it works and should work.

Not necessarily easy, just practical.

A delay (1 minute for most ships, 30 seconds for specialty ships) at least gives the target options. They might not be able to execute their chosen option (for instance due to being pointed if they choose to run), but that puts the onus back on the attacker to foreclose those options and make it stick.

So, from a dead stop how far can a carrier fly in 30 seconds? And you're worried about them getting away?!

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:33:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 19:34:38
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Not necessarily easy, just practical.


practical, there is no counter against local... so people adapted and using an impractical one - sitting afk in order to diminish locals value.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

A delay (1 minute for most ships, 30 seconds for specialty ships) at least gives the target options. They might not be able to execute their chosen option (for instance due to being pointed if they choose to run), but that puts the onus back on the attacker to foreclose those options and make it stick.

terrible idea.. this will ruin hotdrops. because bears will always pick the option to run.
So maybe put a delay on warp disruptors + a warning message "you may get pointed next 20 seconds", or for guns "you might be shot buddy, gtfo or die".

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So, from a dead stop how far can a carrier fly in 30 seconds? And you're worried about them getting away?!

as I wrote before, it may be not strictly a carrier but T3, BC, even BS may get away within 30 seconds.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:46:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 19:34:38
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Not necessarily easy, just practical.


practical, there is no counter against local... so people adapted and using an impractical one - sitting afk in order to diminish locals value.


And now people are proposing doing away with local as a "counter" to afk cloaking, just to complete the circle.
Originally by: Robert Caldera

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

A delay (1 minute for most ships, 30 seconds for specialty ships) at least gives the target options. They might not be able to execute their chosen option (for instance due to being pointed if they choose to run), but that puts the onus back on the attacker to foreclose those options and make it stick.

terrible idea.. this will ruin hotdrops. because bears will always pick the option to run.
So maybe put a delay on warp disruptors + a warning message "you may get pointed next 20 seconds", or for guns "you might be shot buddy, gtfo or die".


Cynos are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from any other module in that they can change the field of battle completely with total initiative on the attacker's side. Nothing else in the game can turn a frigate into a capitol fleet. That sort of power must have limits to be balanced.

Warp disrupters are countered by ECM or getting out of their range if the defender is faster, so that is an argument in my favor.
Originally by: Robert Caldera

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So, from a dead stop how far can a carrier fly in 30 seconds? And you're worried about them getting away?!

as I wrote before, it may be not strictly a carrier but T3, BC, even BS may get away within 30 seconds.

So maybe you are using the wrong tool for the job in those cases.

Perhaps what you are looking for is a T3 cruiser with a cloak instead of a cheap %$# frigate? Oh, but then you would be taking a risk for your reward. Can't have that now, only "carebears" are subject to risk vs. reward.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 21:00:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 21:00:50
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Cynos are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from any other module in that they can change the field of battle completely with total initiative on the attacker's side.

yes


Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Nothing else in the game can turn a frigate into a capitol fleet. That sort of power must have limits to be balanced.

you cant even spell "capital" correctly, dude, stop talking about cyno balance.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Warp disrupters are countered by ECM or getting out of their range if the defender is faster, so that is an argument in my favor.

yeah, in case of cyno its exactly the same, but for the fact the tackler is pinned down with his cyno.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Perhaps what you are looking for is a T3 cruiser with a cloak instead of a cheap %$# frigate? Oh, but then you would be taking a risk for your reward. Can't have that now, only "carebears" are subject to risk vs. reward.

yes, carebears have to take risks, the other side is the treat - carebear's risk being in 0.0.
But back to your question why I take a frigate, because stealth bomber is the only ship type with covert ability and no cloaking delay, allowing put a point immediately after decloak and light a cyno afterwards.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:27:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 21:00:50
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Cynos are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from any other module in that they can change the field of battle completely with total initiative on the attacker's side.

yes



So you have your toy, it does exactly what you want it to, and you'll defend it vigorously even if that is not in the best interests of the game as a whole.

Real mature.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:02:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 21:00:50
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Cynos are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from any other module in that they can change the field of battle completely with total initiative on the attacker's side.

yes



So you have your toy, it does exactly what you want it to, and you'll defend it vigorously even if that is not in the best interests of the game as a whole.

Real mature.

it is in the best interests of the game.
It allows fear&terror in deep carebearish 0.0, where you wont get any kills ever without a cyno.
It allows killing scouted gatecamps, which you wouldn't ever kill in a conventional way.
It allows killing station campers who is doing docking games and who you wouldnt ever kill in a conventional way.
Cyno is good as it is.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:57:00 - [69]
 

Quote:
It allows fear&terror in deep carebearish 0.0, where you wont get any kills ever without a cyno.


Undoubted proof that Robert Caldera really, really sucks at this game: He's unable to kill carebears without a cyno. Take note, people.

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:44:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Terasl Tsuruomo
Edited by: Terasl Tsuruomo on 15/08/2011 06:11:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Maybe that's because AFK cloakers are easily countered by people who don't think that fitting a Warp Disruptor II may give them cancer.


If a AFK cloaker hotdrops with a 20 man SB gang, any subcap will be dead in under 10 seconds with that DPS, and a WD only has 20km range.


Then rat on voicecoms in a fleet.

Or remove local and there's no more AFK cloakers.

/thread

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:55:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Slimy Worm
Originally by: Terasl Tsuruomo
Edited by: Terasl Tsuruomo on 15/08/2011 06:11:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Maybe that's because AFK cloakers are easily countered by people who don't think that fitting a Warp Disruptor II may give them cancer.


If a AFK cloaker hotdrops with a 20 man SB gang, any subcap will be dead in under 10 seconds with that DPS, and a WD only has 20km range.


Then rat on voicecoms in a fleet.

Or remove local and there's no more AFK cloakers.

/thread

AFK cloaking is a technique to make local less valuable for intel, and eliminating local is supposed to fix this?

Eliminating local as a tool for intel is exactly what AFK cloaking is supposed to do!

Why don't we just eliminate all chat channels so that nobody can talk to anyone and the only way people can interact is through the market or by shooting each other. Some game that would be.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:37:00 - [72]
 

If you remove local, then it is even less valuable as intel than having an enemy afk cloak in your system. Going to a system and then go afk is more of having your presence known than denying intel. Besides if you are the enemy your job should not be to deny intel, it should be to gather it.

Atm gathering intel behind enemy lines is really hard, since youre presence is known immediatly.

Rethorical question but, if you managed to slip into a system without anyone noticing, what would you do. Go afk or gather intel?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 09:59:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 10:00:13
Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:
It allows fear&terror in deep carebearish 0.0, where you wont get any kills ever without a cyno.


Undoubted proof that Robert Caldera really, really sucks at this game: He's unable to kill carebears without a cyno. Take note, people.


ya, I am terrible at this game, I cant gank a ratting carrier or capital remote repped ratters, as they doing when they realize you are solo in their territory with a recon, T3 or a bomber. You wont kill anything what is not a total noob, so an option of crushing their carrier support with your own support fleet coming through a cyno is a very nice one.
So we see, cyno is good pvp help even for all those, who is terrible at eve.

Gibbo3771
Posted - 2011.08.17 10:51:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Gibbo3771 on 17/08/2011 10:52:29
Edited by: Gibbo3771 on 17/08/2011 10:52:08
An AFK cloaker is "AFK" until he decloaks, if your kicking about belts and anoms when he does decloak then you are the broken mechanics...not cloaking.

Grow a set of fkin balls, get out of your deadend, cynojammed system with the 101 lrg t2 bubbles around the gate and do something in eve rather than fkin moan cause you can not get your own way.

Cloaking is working fine, if it wasent working fine then cloaking would make people invincible when infact, I have lost probers, recons and even t3's to well prepared gatecamps that were designed to stop me doing what you class as AFK cloaking.

Plus I do not see how an bomber/recon can pass through 40 0.0's before reaching the carebear system without any sort of gang interfering, this just shows what is brokem, its your alliance/corp lack of organization and initiative to get things done.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:23:00 - [75]
 

I would like to quote myself from another topic with a serious and fair proposal to solving this issue without harming those who are actively in front of their clients while cloaked.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Hansipoo
So how about AFK cloaking? Is small gang "disruption" actually going to be active? Or are big alliances still going to have an afk cloaker in every system?


We have proposed an idea to remove the incentive to walk away from your computer cloaked in a system for long periods of time while protecting those who are actively in the client using the cloak.

My part of the proposal would be a very high cost, very high skill module or probe launcher that only fits on a destroyer hull. A person using this module would "scan" a random point in space generated every time a cloak is activated (And goes away when it shuts down obviously) This would be FAR FAR FAR slower than scanning for ships and would only have the effect at the end of a decloak. This will mean it cant be used to camp areas to keep any cloaker out.

To add extra balance and to prevent any major disruption to the intended active uses. A warning would come up once the scan process has started with a final warning soon before the decloak actually happens. (perhaps 15-30 seconds after point is found) An active cloaker would simply warp away. Recloak and the process starts again.

You can see how this protects active cloakers while removing the incentive to go AFK. This would fix the issue and help improve the system and the game itself.


Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:03:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
I would like to quote myself from another topic with a serious and fair proposal to solving this issue without harming those who are actively in front of their clients while cloaked.

this assumes there is something wrong about afk cloaking in first line.... Which is not IMO.

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:48:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
hence they abuse words like "abuse" or "exploit", to emphasize their complaints.


Would you also deny that muslin SOCIALISTS & LIE-beral welfare queen terrists are pooling they're gov't ENTITLEMENT$ to fund the indoctrination of are unborn babbies with the THE GAY AGENDAMANIFESTO in the womb(!)?

Of course cloaking is an EXPLOIT. Why do you hate freedom?

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:49:00 - [78]
 

That was actually a funny troll. Made me lol in RL. Laughing

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:55:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
I would like to quote myself from another topic with a serious and fair proposal to solving this issue without harming those who are actively in front of their clients while cloaked.

this assumes there is something wrong about afk cloaking in first line.... Which is not IMO.


The module will not seriously affect active cloakers. Only those walking away, Or eating, or sleeping or anything where there is no risk in being in enemy territory.

This adds risk. With great skill and expense.

And makes destroyers useful again.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:03:00 - [80]
 

So just do away with the AFK part of AFK cloaking.

Disconnect clients for inactivity.

If you can't be AFK for hours at a stretch then you can't be AFK cloaking, can you?

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:06:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So just do away with the AFK part of AFK cloaking.

Disconnect clients for inactivity.

If you can't be AFK for hours at a stretch then you can't be AFK cloaking, can you?


But that could hamper things not related to cloaking. Yes I would support it over doing nothing about this serious issue but I just want to target the AFK part. That is why I think a destoyer module and new set of skills would be perfect for this job.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:16:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So just do away with the AFK part of AFK cloaking.

Disconnect clients for inactivity.

If you can't be AFK for hours at a stretch then you can't be AFK cloaking, can you?


But that could hamper things not related to cloaking. Yes I would support it over doing nothing about this serious issue but I just want to target the AFK part. That is why I think a destoyer module and new set of skills would be perfect for this job.

Hamper what?

What exactly is there in this game that you need to be online for so long that you'd need to go AFK for more than half an hour while doing it?

It had better be a good example, if you are thinking of doing away with smacktalk just to preserve it.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:20:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So just do away with the AFK part of AFK cloaking.

Disconnect clients for inactivity.

If you can't be AFK for hours at a stretch then you can't be AFK cloaking, can you?


But that could hamper things not related to cloaking. Yes I would support it over doing nothing about this serious issue but I just want to target the AFK part. That is why I think a destoyer module and new set of skills would be perfect for this job.

Hamper what?

What exactly is there in this game that you need to be online for so long that you'd need to go AFK for more than half an hour while doing it?

It had better be a good example, if you are thinking of doing away with smacktalk just to preserve it.


Orca bonuses for one.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:30:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 17/08/2011 14:30:31
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Hamper what?

What exactly is there in this game that you need to be online for so long that you'd need to go AFK for more than half an hour while doing it?

It had better be a good example, if you are thinking of doing away with smacktalk just to preserve it.


Orca bonuses for one.

Sweet! A chance to disrupt mining bots at the same time as doing away with AFK cloakers!

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:33:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 17/08/2011 14:30:31
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Hamper what?

What exactly is there in this game that you need to be online for so long that you'd need to go AFK for more than half an hour while doing it?

It had better be a good example, if you are thinking of doing away with smacktalk just to preserve it.


Orca bonuses for one.

Sweet! A chance to disrupt mining bots at the same time as doing away with AFK cloakers!


Would a bot not do something simple to keep the AFK timer from kicking in?

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:39:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 17/08/2011 14:30:31
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Hamper what?

What exactly is there in this game that you need to be online for so long that you'd need to go AFK for more than half an hour while doing it?

It had better be a good example, if you are thinking of doing away with smacktalk just to preserve it.


Orca bonuses for one.

Sweet! A chance to disrupt mining bots at the same time as doing away with AFK cloakers!


Would a bot not do something simple to keep the AFK timer from kicking in?

They might. If they choose poorly they get banhammered.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:02:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 15:03:43
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

The module will not seriously affect active cloakers. Only those walking away, Or eating, or sleeping or anything where there is no risk in being in enemy territory.

yeah, but this is exactly the point, which has to be proven as viable in the first line if afking is wrong at all. IMO its is all right and REQUIRED tactic for mitigating intel functionality of the local.
If you use local to hide when I appear in local, I'll just afk a while and take you the information about my activity patterns. No more easy detection for ya when I'm active you can read from local changes. Everything all right with that.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

They might. If they choose poorly they get banhammered.

you cant reliably differ between bot and user input. Bots advance continuously so practically, you have no chance of detecting a bot using another bot for detection (eve server).

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:07:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 15:03:43
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

The module will not seriously affect active cloakers. Only those walking away, Or eating, or sleeping or anything where there is no risk in being in enemy territory.

yeah, but this is exactly the point, which has to be proven as viable in the first line if afking is wrong at all. IMO its is all right and REQUIRED tactic for mitigating intel functionality of the local.
If you use local to hide when I appear in local, I'll just afk a while and take you the information about my activity patterns. No more easy detection for ya when I'm active you can read from local changes. Everything all right with that.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

They might. If they choose poorly they get banhammered.

you cant reliably differ between bot and user input. Bots advance continuously so practically, you have no chance of detecting a bot using another bot for detection (eve server).

If staying logged in 23.5/7 is no longer a "normal" behavior for players that aren't running bots it narrows the search field considerably.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:10:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

If staying logged in 23.5/7 is no longer a "normal" behavior for players that aren't running bots it narrows the search field considerably.

clever bots will just bot 12/7, afk cloaking as tactic will break -> not acceptable game change.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:10:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Terasl Tsuruomo
Edited by: Terasl Tsuruomo on 15/08/2011 06:11:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Maybe that's because AFK cloakers are easily countered by people who don't think that fitting a Warp Disruptor II may give them cancer.


If a AFK cloaker hotdrops with a 20 man SB gang, any subcap will be dead in under 10 seconds with that DPS, and a WD only has 20km range.


If the cloaker is doing that, he's not AFK.


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