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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:41:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Amazing how this topic sounds so close to the one before CCP Buffed up CONCORD.

*Rubs hands* Yep the change seems to be ever closer considering how much the pro AFK Exploit crowd is flooding the various topics.
Laughing

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:55:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
exploit


Why do you keep using this word? Cloaking is no more of an exploit than docking up, logging off, sitting in a pos, or doing the sensible thing and going next door.

because without this word, the complainers would sound incredibly stupid with no real argument on their side, hence they abuse words like "abuse" or "exploit", to emphasize their complaints.


Amazing how this topic sounds so close to the one before CCP Buffed up CONCORD.

*Rubs hands* Yep the change seems to be ever closer considering how much the pro AFK Exploit crowd is flooding the various topics.


Docking up is an exploit. Why can't I kill you when you're docked?

Sitting in a pos is an exploit. Why can't I kill you when you're in a pos?

Logging off is an exploit, why can't I kill you while you're logged off?

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:02:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: OMGWTFResearch on 15/08/2011 22:04:06
Same arguments same thing nothing changes.

Proving time and time again you KNOW CCP will change things even tho you act like its not an exploit.

You can break a POS and capture a system. You cant currently uncloak someone that is more than 2.5k away.

Make a module that can decloak someone who is dumb enough to be AFK and problem solved no? Unless of course you have a main or alt doing some AFK cloaking then of course you are going to scream that its not an exploit and virtually copy the same crap thrown before CCP buffed CONCORD.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:39:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Nezumiiro Noneko on 15/08/2011 22:40:49
Edited by: Nezumiiro Noneko on 15/08/2011 22:39:47
Originally by: Terasl
Also, if I'm baiting 24/7, how am I supposed to make isk?


ummm....if you are baiting hours, that means he is actually afk. And not there to hurt you. Or....he can't find a mommie pilot/ a bo gang who thinks you are worthy of the hot drop.


Gratz, rat away. Its for this reason alone I alwasy had a ratting drake on standyby. You got to be a mommie pilot hard up for a km to kill a drake. BO gangs...examing your intel. Max range of a bo bs drop is like what 5-6 systems. tell tale sign they are in the hood is several cloakies in that range. Well that and last home I was in....the cloakies were predicatable. Same couple dudes.....loved their arazu's. In them 7 days a week. After the first few tards died, yeah jsut assumed arazu's even if no eyes on them that day. See in intel approaching your system, pack up drones, go to safe pos. Wait for them to pass through, few systems for buffer...go back to ratting again. Tards in alliance fed them kills....which was cool. kept them out of our space pretty much most of the time. Eve a cold place lol.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:37:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Edited by: OMGWTFResearch on 15/08/2011 22:04:06
Same arguments same thing nothing changes.

Proving time and time again you KNOW CCP will change things even tho you act like its not an exploit.

You can break a POS and capture a system. You cant currently uncloak someone that is more than 2.5k away.

Make a module that can decloak someone who is dumb enough to be AFK and problem solved no? Unless of course you have a main or alt doing some AFK cloaking then of course you are going to scream that its not an exploit and virtually copy the same crap thrown before CCP buffed CONCORD.


You can't take down a pos or take sov in a system solo, or even within one day even if you have 5000 supers. That makes you functionalyl invulnerable inside a pos or a station. Even if you take sov, you still can't get the reds out of your station.

And no, because that would also decloak anyone who was at the keyboard, and thus make cloaks useless. As I've said, I use cloaks to travel and occasionally sit in a safe till the reds go away, that's as close to AFK cloaking as I get.

I think I might take my bombers for a spin though, where does your corp live?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:53:00 - [36]
 

Ok… here we go again.

So, what is the actual problem here that you are trying to solve?

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.16 03:51:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Ok… here we go again.

So, what is the actual problem here that you are trying to solve?


he has a known afk cloaky they have baited 24/7 that never attacks anyone in his system. Obviously a broken game mechanic that needs to be fixed.


Personally, I'd say that its someone's alt who really wants that system to himself. If its always the same bait ship going out....its for sure lol.

Man, sorry guys, don't know why he isn't taking the bait. I'll jsut rat some more....you all sit on the other side of that gate, might take sometime. (then releases key button for comms and goes to himself...yeah might take some time for me to ahve that cloaky probe out all the ca's in here and tag team em lol).

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.16 03:54:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Nezumiiro Noneko
he has a known afk cloaky they have baited 24/7 that never attacks anyone in his system. Obviously a broken game mechanic that needs to be fixed.
So… what's the actual problem again?

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:20:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Nezumiiro Noneko
he has a known afk cloaky they have baited 24/7 that never attacks anyone in his system. Obviously a broken game mechanic that needs to be fixed.
So… what's the actual problem again?



no problem, working as intended lol.


Well is a problem. This game needs more troll bait topics. This topic....gets old after seeing it for 2 years. Most original trolling I have seen in past 2 weeks is a tom gerard one. Scary. Even scarier, I actually look forward to derek chu post barrages in caod between his bans. original and usually fun reads.

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:55:00 - [40]
 

Thing is, I suspect that some (or many) AFK cloakers are in fact bots which do some 'traffic analysis', like logging the comings and goings of a system and maybe even identifying persons, preferred ship types, and so on. People would pay good ISK for data such as this.

And that is quite something harmless compared to whatever else a cloaked, seemingly inactive bot may actually do.


Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:40:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Unless of course you have a main or alt doing some AFK cloaking then of course you are going to scream that its not an exploit and virtually copy the same crap thrown before CCP buffed CONCORD.


rage more, f***ot.

I've done afk cloaking for a while and I suffered from afk cloakers for a while.

I dont really aware of how CONCORD was buffed and for what reason but you cant compare them to something related to 0.0.

In empire concord is the last line of defence for a regular player, if it doesnt work properly and gankers kill people left and right, people leave the game.
0.0 is a different story, nobody forced you move there, afk cloakers dont do active damage when they are afk (yeah I know, income denial).
It is your decision to move there, you should have evaluated very well considering all risks and benefits of 0.0. They include afk cloakers, hotdrops, camps, absense of concord, you name it.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:25:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Lucien Visteen on 16/08/2011 12:25:14
Docking up is an exploit. Why can't I kill you when you're docked?

Sitting in a pos is an exploit. Why can't I kill you when you're in a pos?

Logging off is an exploit, why can't I kill you while you're logged off?


They way you are wording this make it seem like you are kinda missing a point. See, I dont think they say its an exploit since they can't kill the afk'r, they say its an exploit since they can't be found. High sec. mission runners can be found in their own mission pocket. A miner that has scanned down a site of minerals can be found. A guy sitting in one place for 23 hours should also technically be found.

I'm not saying its an exploit, but they are abusing it a little bit.

And i still stand by my original idea of having the cloaker module have 2 modes, a passive and an active mode.

And you using a cloak module to fly safely around is not an exploit, since you are moving around.

(And I fail at quoting people XD)

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:54:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Lucien Visteen
A guy sitting in one place for 23 hours should also technically be found.

technically, he can be found, all you need is to cross the whole system until you bump into him.
Yes, thats pretty unlikely but this is the whole purpose of cloak to give that degree of safety.
You should not be able to probe everyone you like on your terms, this would render many peaces of space too secure, where afk cloaking, cloaking at all and covert cynos are the few tools against carebear havens in deep 0.0. With a cloak nerf as proposed by many people, the last tool would vanish.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:09:00 - [44]
 

Yes. I agree that a cloak should make you feel safer, and make it very hard for other players to find you. But atm it is a bit flawed.

And as you and others have said, the number one thing that makes this mechanic flawed is local. If CCP finds a way to deal with hostilese showing in local, then I bet that the cloaking mechanic can be used for what it is intended. Being sneaky.

The latest dev blog give me some hope that this is atleast discussed as one of the points mentioned in the intel part is this:

Moving target
New information should become old information on the shortest delay sensible for a given thing. This serves to make intel an ongoing concern and a regular occupation, gives people space to take action before their opponents are ready for it, and adds an edge of urgency to decision-making. People should not be asking if their intel is up-to-date, they should be asking how out-of-date it is.

Yes, I hope this means changes to local chat.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:26:00 - [45]
 

Actually, there is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanic.

The problem is that cynos are too fast. If cynos are slowed down then you know that you either have only the cloaker to deal with (no big deal), or that you will have time to react if he drops a cyno nearby.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:34:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Actually, there is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanic.

The problem is that cynos are too fast. If cynos are slowed down then you know that you either have only the cloaker to deal with (no big deal), or that you will have time to react if he drops a cyno nearby.
I agree the cyno mechanic needs to be looked at. My suggestion was that with anything but the recon, the cyno has a 1 minute delay before jumping is allowed. With the recon and it's cyno bonus, come another bonus: time delay reduction per level.
This could either be 10 seconds per level, leaving a 10 second delay, or 20% per level leaving no delay.

This gives a cyno, a far more tactical and situational dependant usage. It also gives a reason to use recon ships for their intended role.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:47:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Actually, there is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanic.

The problem is that cynos are too fast. If cynos are slowed down then you know that you either have only the cloaker to deal with (no big deal), or that you will have time to react if he drops a cyno nearby.
I agree the cyno mechanic needs to be looked at. My suggestion was that with anything but the recon, the cyno has a 1 minute delay before jumping is allowed. With the recon and it's cyno bonus, come another bonus: time delay reduction per level.
This could either be 10 seconds per level, leaving a 10 second delay, or 20% per level leaving no delay.

This gives a cyno, a far more tactical and situational dependant usage. It also gives a reason to use recon ships for their intended role.

Sounds interesting.

I'd go with a 10%/level delay reduction. Cynos are too powerful a mechanic to allow anything to provide cyno access instantly.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:52:00 - [48]
 

leave the cynos alone, the sole reason they are working is their suprise effect.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 14:56:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
leave the cynos alone, the sole reason they are working is their suprise effect.
With my idea and a recon having the 20% time reduction bonus, it would still be a surprise effect. You would just need to use the correct ship and have the proper skills to do it.

It would rid eve of the throw away cyno alt culture we now have. Which is a good thing I believe.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:05:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
leave the cynos alone, the sole reason they are working is their suprise effect.

Then you are doing it wrong.

One minute is near instantaneous from a strategic standpoint and an eternity from a tactical perspective.

Cynos should not be an effective way to attack mobile opponents who are alert. They should be an effective way to move strategic assets quickly. This is, by the way, why I think adding the delay but allowing any ship to bypass it completely is a bad idea.

Allowing fleets to operate tactically over light-years of range is so obviously game breaking I would be shocked that CCP put it in the game to begin with, but it is far from the worst example of not thinking things through adequately I've seen here.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:08:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 16/08/2011 15:12:24
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Robert Caldera
leave the cynos alone, the sole reason they are working is their suprise effect.
With my idea and a recon having the 20% time reduction bonus, it would still be a surprise effect. You would just need to use the correct ship and have the proper skills to do it.

It would rid eve of the throw away cyno alt culture we now have. Which is a good thing I believe.

yeah but what is a proper ship for a cyno? Baiting a camp and lighting a cyno on a "improper" ship is exactly why its working actually.
A throwaway frigate for a hotdrop isnt exactly what you are looking for, because a cyno+bridge/jump alredy takes a couple of seconds to complete, if the cyno dies too quickly (T1 frig) you wont kill anything at all because you arrive somewhere in the target system but not nearly where you were supposed to be.
Leave cynos alone as they are now.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Cynos should not be an effective way to attack mobile opponents who are alert.

why not? Whats the covert cyno for? For moving strategical assets around eve?
If you are "being alert" and fly aligned at all times, with the mouse curser over the warp button, noone will ever catch you.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:29:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 16/08/2011 15:45:53
Originally by: Robert Caldera

Leave cynos alone as they are now.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Cynos should not be an effective way to attack mobile opponents who are alert.

why not? Whats the covert cyno for? For moving strategical assets around eve?
If you are "being alert" and fly aligned at all times, with the mouse curser over the warp button, noone will ever catch you.

That's the covert cyno. Which can still have the delay and still be covert.

Mind you, if you decloak right next to someone to light it off, you aren't being very covert yourself, so I repeat: you are doing it wrong.

Of course, if someone is being alert and warps to a safe spot immediately when they see a local spike, maybe they deserve a chance to get away. There should be nothing in the game that is a guaranteed iWin button. If they are watching a movie while ratting, as so many people do, even being stealthy like a water buffalo is going to be sufficient to catch them.
-added-

Of course, you could pull up your Recon ship 15km behind your target, decloak, light off the cyno while targeting the victim for point, then all you need to be able to do is last for long enough for your buddies to get through.

How long does it take for a carrier to lock a Recon ship? How long does it take for him to switch drones and get the defensive drones on you? What kind of fail fit would he have to have to be able to jump out in less than 30 seconds (Cap MWD? lol)

In short, if a 30 second delay makes it "not work" you are doing it wrong.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:29:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
yeah but what is a proper ship for a cyno?
Well I would argue it's the Force Recon Ship, as it's role is aimed at the use of cynos. The reason most don't use them, is because a tech 1 frig and low SP alt will do exactly the same task.

Anyway it's only an idea to add a more tactical aspect to cyno usage and we are taking this thread off topic. Not that that's such a bad thing. Razz


Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:39:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Lucien Visteen on 16/08/2011 15:41:08
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Actually, there is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanic.

The problem is that cynos are too fast. If cynos are slowed down then you know that you either have only the cloaker to deal with (no big deal), or that you will have time to react if he drops a cyno nearby.


I try quoting again!

I didnt mean that there are anything wrong with the cloacking mechanic, rather that the way it is now, some players misuse the cloaking effect and that ties in with how local is set up.

They cant be covert since everyone knows they are there already. And since their options are rather limited they feel that the best way to harass (since they cant ambush effectively) is to go afk. And fewer still just go afk to go afk.

Personally I have no problem with cynos, they are an integral part of the game, and can be even more so if your enemy dont know about you.

And I know some will counter it by saying afk cloaking is an integral part of the game!

But if local is changed, then I bet cloaking playstyle will change aswell.

(edit: Yay I took it back on track! YARRRR!!)

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:55:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Lucien Visteen
Edited by: Lucien Visteen on 16/08/2011 15:41:08
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Actually, there is nothing wrong with the cloaking mechanic.

The problem is that cynos are too fast. If cynos are slowed down then you know that you either have only the cloaker to deal with (no big deal), or that you will have time to react if he drops a cyno nearby.


I try quoting again!

I didnt mean that there are anything wrong with the cloacking mechanic, rather that the way it is now, some players misuse the cloaking effect and that ties in with how local is set up.

They cant be covert since everyone knows they are there already. And since their options are rather limited they feel that the best way to harass (since they cant ambush effectively) is to go afk. And fewer still just go afk to go afk.

Personally I have no problem with cynos, they are an integral part of the game, and can be even more so if your enemy dont know about you.

And I know some will counter it by saying afk cloaking is an integral part of the game!

But if local is changed, then I bet cloaking playstyle will change aswell.

(edit: Yay I took it back on track! YARRRR!!)

I've played in nullsec. The newbie corp I played in at first had no problem with running appropriate countermeasures to deal with cloakies, right up to the point a ratting team got hotdropped, then the rule became "if there's one, assume there's a fleet".

It isn't the cloaks that are broken, without the threat of the hotdrop they are no trouble at all, and doing away with local makes them even more powerful.

So you are arguing to "nerf" afk cloakers by making cloaking even more powerful.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 16:43:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Mind you, if you decloak right next to someone to light it off, you aren't being very covert yourself, so I repeat: you are doing it wrong.

what? There is another method of "hotdropping"?

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Of course, if someone is being alert and warps to a safe spot immediately when they see a local spike, maybe they deserve a chance to get away. There should be nothing in the game that is a guaranteed iWin button. If they are watching a movie while ratting, as so many people do, even being stealthy like a water buffalo is going to be sufficient to catch them.

you mean a game, where you can only catch semi-afk people has a better design? No, that would be awful.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Of course, you could pull up your Recon ship 15km behind your target, decloak, light off the cyno while targeting the victim for point, then all you need to be able to do is last for long enough for your buddies to get through.

5 seconds to get there + lag + locking time + module lag, so 5-8 seconds delay is already there. If you are in a recon you have a 3 seconds locking delay additionally and keep in mind you are pinned down with a cyno, cant move anywhere, so a plenty of time for the victim to burn away, jam you, call friends etc. So an additional "cyno delay" would mean a massive nerf, which is not required imo, thanks to local people are already too safe in 0.0.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
How long does it take for a carrier to lock a Recon ship? How long does it take for him to switch drones and get the defensive drones on you? What kind of fail fit would he have to have to be able to jump out in less than 30 seconds (Cap MWD? lol)

you arent always dropping carriers.. It might be a T3, faction BS, marauder or usual BS/BC having low locking times.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
In short, if a 30 second delay makes it "not work" you are doing it wrong.
lol, tell me something about proper hotdropping

Originally by: Mag's
Well I would argue it's the Force Recon Ship, as it's role is aimed at the use of cynos.

being able to fit it on any random ship is an awesome surprise aspect of the game, why cynos work at all for hotdrops because a recon isnt that juicy bait like a raven or easy target like T1 cruiser. Besides that, sometimes you need a f*ckton of HP on your cynoship to survive it at all (dropping a fleet of battleships or capitals).

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

I've played in nullsec. The newbie corp I played in at first had no problem with running appropriate countermeasures to deal with cloakies, right up to the point a ratting team got hotdropped, then the rule became "if there's one, assume there's a fleet".

yes, thats the correct attitude.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

It isn't the cloaks that are broken, without the threat of the hotdrop they are no trouble at all, and doing away with local makes them even more powerful.

nothing is broken.

Lucien Visteen
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:28:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Lucien Visteen on 16/08/2011 17:33:49
I'm not saying cloaking is broken.

And you might call the local change a nerf if you will, what I want thou, is this:

Local gets reflected to who owns the system. So that only the players of the alliance is shown, and it is only shown for the alliance.
I guess it would mean that anyone, if they are sneaky enough can get in undetected, but then that is the fault of the alliance not paying attention. But this also works both ways, you can't see the enemy, and the enemy cant see you. So he has no idea either how many there are in system unless he scans. And also if the alliance spot the sneaker, he won't be able to know it right away since he cant see what the others are typing.

I want the cloak to have 2 modes. One passive that masks your signature, and also hides you from the hud list. and one Active mode with a 5 minute active time, and 1 minute cooldown that camouflages your ship aswell.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:04:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Mind you, if you decloak right next to someone to light it off, you aren't being very covert yourself, so I repeat: you are doing it wrong.

what? There is another method of "hotdropping"?


Your inability or unwillingness to consider alternate tactics does not mean that they do not exist and that they wouldn't be viable.

What exactly is the counter to a hotdrop?

If there isn't an counter, then it is a broken mechanic. If the only practical counter is to not play the game at all when there is the threat of a hotdrop (as it currently appears to be), then it is a broken mechanic and will simply result in people not playing the game in places where it is a threat.

"Breaking" something that is already broken is called fixing it.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:30:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What exactly is the counter to a hotdrop?


you know, there are ships involved.. shooty shooty is the counter.
For the surprise moment, there is no counter, what do you expect?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:33:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
For the surprise moment, there is no counter, what do you expect?


maybe the spanish inquisition?


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