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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:21:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Nola Doyle
Rek Jaiga, you are nothing but a fraud and a charlatan, a man with many masks to wear when convenient for you.

This is an unsupported claim, which as a scientist you should recognize making blank statements without evidence isn't the proper way to reach conclusions. Furthermore, I've been incredibly transparent in my reasoning and beliefs. I do not hide behind masks.


Originally by: Nola Doyle
This isn't just the fate of a civilization we're discussing, but the future of our species, and allowing it to be directed by substandard or inept leadership is an irresponsible and immoral proposition to simply stand by and let it idly continue.


The nations currently in place are there because they have been successful in keeping the species alive! It's natural selection at work. If it is the propagation of the species you seek, look no further; mission accomplished! By no means am I implying things should remain stagnant, but what you fail to recognize is how adaptable the nations are.

Originally by: Nola Doyle

Rek Jaiga, it is unfortunate that your respect for your father doesn't translate to something more tangible. Wisdom would recognize from observation of laborers that actual labor is required for results to happen. Waiting for a Most Beneficient one to bestow our species with miracles is not only lazy but irresponsible.

Of course actual labor is required in order to obtain results! But how does this justify limiting the cognitive ability of individuals specialized in labor? A hard laborer can be repurposed into another role. The mechanic can one day become a mechanical engineer and produce designs that are superior to engineers who never even touch a machine, simply because the former individual has working experience whereas the latter lacks such experience. Of course, you may challenge this idea by stating that in Nation direct experience can be somehow transmitted from the True Slave laborers to the unrestricted elites. I would counter this by saying that direct experience is ineffable, and any attempt to transmit it would result in some data loss as compared to the experience itself.

Originally by: Nola Doyle

Speak with any citizen of Sansha's Nation and you will soon discover that serving in such a capacity is considered an honor and a blessing.


I'm sorry, because you've spent a little over a month in Sansha space outside of your capsule? The True Citizens are more than comfortable in their cushy office positions while the True Slaves get thrashed about in interstellar battles. It is incredibly hypocritical of Kuvakei to tout "Unity" around whenever a select few (himself being among them) are not Integrated into the collective.

Originally by: Nola Doyle

It is your kind, your unwillingness to see progress and opportunity, and your fear of our potential that leads us on a path to oblivion, Mr. Valadeus.


"The path to oblivion"? Are you kidding me?! To date the human species has never been completely Integrated as Kuvakei would have things. And yet look! We live!

Originally by: Nola Doyle

Their is nothing more inhumane than being in possession of free will and choosing to ignore the responsibility to your species. One need only look at the millions of homeless, the barbarity of your border conflicts, and the wanton destruction in the lawless reaches of space in the name of personal prosperity to see the price of such behavior.

So what you're suggesting is to take free will away in order to alleviate homelessness and barbarism? Though I cannot speak for them personally, I'd imagine even people in such situations would prefer to "tough it out" rather than unplug their brains and be on the permanent opium drip of Nation. As was said by Lady Valadeus, to err is human. And to choose free will and life even in the face of suffering is also human, for suffering is an inevitable part of the human condition.

Saikoyu
Amarr
Rho Dynamics
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:23:00 - [62]
 

Nola, it has been a long time, and I am sorry that it has been this long. We were never close, but all the same I should have spoken to you before this. When I first heard that you had joined Nation's supporters, I admit I was not as surprised as I thought I would be.

I will not attempt an argument with you Nola, I know that you will not be swayed by words, and I have no wish to speak in circles with you. You are correct in a number of things though. Humanity in its current state is not humane, or logical. Many claim to be free, or to have choice, or to be on the correct path, but in the end, it is only their voice, their mind that says such, and any other can point to some other argument against it, as you have done to those here. But this can be done to anyone's voice and mind, including the voice and mind of Sansha Kuvakei. Ultimately, all that is left is your own mind, your own voice, to say what you believe in, and what could be your last choice is always in who you give it too in support. I made my choice, maybe out of foolish reasons, but one I will keep, and that voice I support gave her's to freedom of mind and body, as she knew it. I hope that you have not given your voice totally to Sansha Kuvakei, as I will defend the freedom that I support, but I will cry if I do so against you. If I recall, you never seemed to have much use for emotions, but I hope that you consider them still. Take care Nola, I hope that we will fly together again, in happier times.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.20 03:17:00 - [63]
 

There's more to life than mere survival.

There's more to a political body than mere unity.

Sierra'Kor
Advent's Reach
Posted - 2011.08.20 05:04:00 - [64]
 

Several have questioned, and even mocked, my stance on Nation; that Sansha can not be allowed to remain at the head of Nation for Nation to prosper. I find this funny because this desire of mine to free Nation of such blatant contradictions to its core fundamentals is what all the resistance want, and even a few Nation supporters indirectly want.

Rek, I rejoice to see that you have come to understand the guise that Kuvakei has been using, the lies he uses to contort what Nation should be. Ghost has used the logic that Sansha's Nation, by name and form, can not be without Kuvakei. I rejected this notion at first, steadfast in my belief that Sansha created Nation but he was not needed to maintain it, but I've come to realize Ghost was right. The current Nation exists solely due to Kuvakei, he keeps Nation as it is, where all are equal expect those more equal than others, and without him Nation would not be the same. This realization strengthened my stance that if Kuvakei could be removed and the whole of Nation could be given choice once again, something new would be born. Simple logic, I admit, and unattainable with current resources, but the thought that Nation could be given a chance to come into its own under its own power is an exciting prospect.

I say all this, not only for you and me, Rek, but for the others that have taken notice here. Progress is desired, the evolution or even simply a new path for humanity to take, and Nation is a beacon for such a desire. But, in its current form, stagnation is a very real prospect while only one mind controls the future of Nation. This prospect aside though, Sansha is but a man, gifted as he is, he can not be held solely responsible for progress on such a scale as he is attempting. With or without him, the potential for Nation to be a path of progress is still there, but while he remains that potential is hindered by the many obvious, and not so obvious, failings that surround him.

I kicked started the Advent for several reasons but one of them was to show that a collective could exist, as there is in Nation, but with free minds. Where the individual contributes to the whole and the whole contributes to the individual. In Nation, the individual is indoctrinated and consumed by the whole, replacing the individual for all intents and purposes. In the Advent, the individual becomes part of the whole but remains intact and the whole is changed, evolved even, with every new addition. I made the Advent with no pretense of controlling how it evolved, with every new addition the mindset and goals of the Advent alter in varying degrees. The Advent, in its own right, is an entity onto itself; self-governing and fully capable of evolving, it is unhindered by a limited few's goals and vision.

I am not eloquent enough to even hope to give you all a full understanding of all this, but I do hope that some points were understood. I know that not everyone will agree with my thoughts here, heavens know I don't agree with everyone here. All the same, I take away from your comments insight and trinkets of wisdom, I only hope you can do the same from me.

Hmm, I fear I rambled a bit. Rek, we need to get a drink sometime, I can't keep getting pulled into the mess that is the IGS whenever I want to catch up with old friends.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.20 12:17:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 20/08/2011 12:17:56
Originally by: Raze Valadeus

The hyper-rational, which is where you belong, forego the latter two in favor of cold logic. Whenever you reach a conclusion or make a decision based on your logic, it may be the logical or rational conclusion and decision to make. That does not always make it the right one, doctor.

That does not necessarily make you evil, but it does make you a zealot. A zealot for rationality and logic at the expense of their counterparts.



I am "hyper-rational". This is not a matter of rationality, this is a matter of coming to right conclusion, and not the wrong one. There is nothing wrong in hyper-rationality, at the contrary. It generally avoids stupidity or drivels spitted out of ignorance.

The problem with Ms Doyle is that she sums up the right issues (out of rationality), often in a very interesting light, and then inevitably head to the wrong conclusions.

Quote:
I recognize this and thus the futility in continuing to publicly debate with you.


You are not the first one to come to that conclusion. You speak to a wall, much like speaking with any extremist.

A true scientist would actually always doubt about everything he knows, about every hypothesis and theory. Openess is the very essence of Science, a trait she does not share.

Eventually, Ms Doyle does the exact same thing that she despises in Religion and fanatics : she never questions herself.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.21 06:35:00 - [66]
 

I am not beyond allowing my adversaries to blindly stagger through their own ignorance. Ultimately, time will tell who is right in the end.


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