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Crucifire
Securitas Protectorate
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:05:00 - [31]
 

Hah, unexpected.

Let's get a drink sometime.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:55:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Rek Jaiga on 18/08/2011 12:24:38


To Lord Valadeus and Valentina: I thank you for standing beside me in this time of great change in my life.

To Crucifire: Yes! We must catch up; I never did ask how things went with your running out into nullsec.

To Paladin Farel: Thank you for pointing the bit about subjective truths out. It has inspired my below statements.

To Sierra'Kor: I'm surprised to hear you've rejected Kuvakei too! You were pretty silent about it. How've you been?

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:17:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
Originally by: Rek Jaiga
[..] The Empire also has a tradition of intellectually or theologically defending/enforcing these truths through organizations such as the Theology Council...



I emphasized the important part where you agree with me for your convenience.

I stand by my original statement about subjective "truths" being forced upon the masses by an oppressive orthodoxy. You're of course free to prostrate yourself before said orthodoxy but, kindly don't try to call yourself a think tank or scientific organization when your conclusions must be filtered and approved by your church.

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled heretical by the Theology Council, what would your reaction be?




And I have further highlighted the key point I was trying to make: the Theology Council doesn't simply run around, point a finger, and say "This is so!". They actually reason things out. If my organization were to make a discovery based upon empirical observation the Theology Council simply would not declare it heretical, for empirical observations are made about the physical universe (The Book of Nature, if you will) and its physical laws whereas the Theology Council deals in area of divine law. Now, if me or my organization were to take an observation and extrapolate theological truth from it, then the Theology Council is within full rights to declare it heretical. If such a thing were to occur, I would not shout "Autocannons and missiles, go!" but rather would simply have a nice intellectual conversation with a Theology Council member and have them explain why such-and-such is the case.

As for the bit about subjective truths, your original statement was that the Amarr do not believe in objective truth. While it is undeniable that each individual experiences a subjective truth there still exists a perfectly objective truth. Whether or not such a perfectly objective truth is available for humans or is only reserved for the All-Knowing is a matter of opinion (though I'd go with the latter of the two).

Edit: Had more to say

Niraia
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.08.16 09:41:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Niraia on 16/08/2011 09:43:37
Edited by: Niraia on 16/08/2011 09:42:53
I'm surprised that there hasn't been any attempt to attack your reasoning by Nation loyalists yet.

Kybernetes Moros, Degen Sankgria.. where are you, you ****ing cowards?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:17:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella


If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled heretical by the Theology Council, what would your reaction be?




If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled dangerous by the Federal ethic commities, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled non profitable by the CEP, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled anti-traditions by the Tribal Assembly, what would your reaction be?

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:38:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Niraia
Edited by: Niraia on 16/08/2011 09:43:37
Edited by: Niraia on 16/08/2011 09:42:53
I'm surprised that there hasn't been any attempt to attack your reasoning by Nation loyalists yet.

Kybernetes Moros, Degen Sankgria.. where are you, you ****ing cowards?


I'm sure if they have any opposition to my reasoning (which of course they probably do) they'll contact me privately; you know how private SHARE likes to be.

What would really be interesting is a talk with Sansha Kuvakei himself, though I've heard that doesn't turn out well sometimes.

Manwe Todako
Minmatar
Disciples of Ston
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:52:00 - [37]
 

Mr Jaiga,
I believe that I represent the Disciples of Ston when I say that your reasoning for speaking out against Sansha Nation is the right reason. It is hard to leave a cause or a belief, even when we discover that it is faulty or wrong. You have shown integrity in your actions. You have the support of the Disciples in this decision.
As Ston would say, The Disciples of Ston bid you peace.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:47:00 - [38]
 

Thank you, Ston. These times have been trying, but I will get through them! I bid you and your organization peace as well.

Renier Cesaille
Gallente
Freespace Cooperative
Posted - 2011.08.17 18:45:00 - [39]
 

I, Renier Cesaille, commend you on your decision to stand as an Autarch against the loss of autonomy threatened by Sansha's Nation. The Freespace Cooperative will always have a place for you if you wish to walk a more anarchic path. Best of luck with your endeavors in the Empire; but rember all of us are a nation unto ourselves.

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.17 19:55:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled dangerous by the Federal ethic commities, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled non profitable by the CEP, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled anti-traditions by the Tribal Assembly, what would your reaction be?


Nice try Farel but, you can't compare the way things work in your theocratic monarchy to a representative democracy, a meritocracy or our tribal system. No other nation mixes governance with religion as the Amarr do. No other nation makes unorthodox or unapproved thinking (heresy) a crime against the state. If there even existed some sort of "traditionalist council" in the Assembly (there isn't) all they could do would be to introduce a law prohibiting whatever activity. That law would have to be approved by the Assembly and the Tribes. It would have to be enforced. I could then either obey it or ignore it (and subject myself to prosecution and punishment).

Sorry but, apple does not equate to orange.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.17 20:06:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 17/08/2011 20:09:00
Originally by: Anabella Rella
Originally by: Lyn Farel

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled dangerous by the Federal ethic commities, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled non profitable by the CEP, what would your reaction be?

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled anti-traditions by the Tribal Assembly, what would your reaction be?


Nice try Farel but, you can't compare the way things work in your theocratic monarchy to a representative democracy, a meritocracy or our tribal system. No other nation mixes governance with religion as the Amarr do. No other nation makes unorthodox or unapproved thinking (heresy) a crime against the state. If there even existed some sort of "traditionalist council" in the Assembly (there isn't) all they could do would be to introduce a law prohibiting whatever activity. That law would have to be approved by the Assembly and the Tribes. It would have to be enforced. I could then either obey it or ignore it (and subject myself to prosecution and punishment).

Sorry but, apple does not equate to orange.




This was to be expected, and you apparently did not get my point. This was never a question of comparison of concrete designations (apple does not equate to orange indeed, and so religious doctrines do not equate to lobbies, or doctrines of profit, if you must resort to analogies like this).

This is a question of flaws. The point was simple to grasp : flaws are in every system I cited above. You apparently missed the hyperbole I did with the 3 of my statetements (which were also ironic).

And you ultimately show your total lack of comprehension of the Amarrian administrative systems (please note the plural). Things are to be approved by ruling councils too in Amarrian society to, at the contrary of what you seem to think.

Stating that a single one of the ruling systems cited above is clear of any flaw would be like stating that humans are perfect.

And do not try to insert here scales of "flaw", for that would be totally inaccurate, or highly speculative, and definitly a sign of political bias.


Sidenote : this is not my "theocratic monarchy".

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:23:00 - [42]
 

You've not yet addressed my point, Pilot Rella. As I said, the Theology Council deals in the areas of divine law and theocratic truths. Making an empirical observation is making an observation about physical laws and scientific truths. Not that science and religion are separate (they are two sides of the same coin: absolute truth and the mind of God), but rather they involve very different disciplines.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:57:00 - [43]
 

And you presented such promise, Rek Jaiga. You understand with logic, yet fail to match it with proportionate action. Ultimately, it leads me to wonder whether you understood the values represented in the public theater, or simply utilized the opportunity to practice your art of propaganda creation. Fortunately, not all of life's challenges are permanent, and you still possess the potential to redeem yourself, so I will endeavor to appeal to the salvageable gray matter lurking between your ears.

The term humanity, or Nationís apparent lack thereof, has been the Coalitionís chief tool of rhetoric in championing their cause for protecting CONCORD and its Imperial benefactors. Sansha Kuvakeiís True Slave army has been the focal point in this argument, cited ad nauseum as a symbolic representation for barbarism and an affront to the very tenets of human nature. I can assure you that murder, ****, enslavement, and mass destruction, are all very human qualities that manifest themselves in less than subtle ways in what many describe as lawful, civilized societies.

All modern societies have evolved in a manner that each member is not required to grow their own food, build their own homes, or assemble their own reactor engines. These societies have discovered the inherent benefit in specialization, to assume roles that are needed for a conglomeration of people to function efficiently. This is due, in large part, to the ingenuity of man and their utilization of tools and machinery to work smarter, not harder, to achieve their goals. It is what has allowed us to evolve from agrarian societies to industrial and beyond, to free our thinkers and tinkerers to hone their craft and provide us with the many tools we utilize today.

What you see on the battlefield is a specialized tool, a warrior interlinked with its fellow units designed for a singular purpose: war and destruction. Fearless, unobstructed by inferior communication techniques, this tool performs to its optimum through a collective neural network with a vastly superior response time. In real-time combat scenarios where advantage can dissolve with the blink of a cynosaural field, this technological advantage can mean the difference between the survival of a nation and the death of its people.

All militaries seek to achieve what Nation has with its army. All nations, since the inception of the Promised Land, have aspired to achieve what Kuvakei has, yet lacked the conviction to do so themselves. They have simultaneously coveted and feared His design, perhaps as a grim reflection of their own inflexibility and righteous indignation. It is only now that the civilized worlds, inept and incapable of defending themselves, cling helplessly at the heels of their Jovian-bound mercenary militia (see: Coalition goons) for their safety.

What monumental display of willful ignorance it must take to look upon a soldier in battle and predispose that he lacks an appreciation for science. Science and thinking men designed wormhole technology that Kuvakei now employs to strike at the heart of CONCORD authority, just as its nanites and drones have liberated the millions of people from the surface of numerous planets. And through the marvels of advanced cloning techniques, these men and women will continue to serve this cause in various roles in Sanshaís Nation. As if this all werenít evidence enough, Nationís implant technology is universally recognized as some of the most advanced and sophisticated instrumentation ever utilized by man. I have seen much, much more, but I presume to let my examples speak for themselves.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:58:00 - [44]
 

And yet all this overwhelming evidence may not be enough to convince you, sir. Some men are content to coexist in a fantastical world shaped by benevolent deities, and comfortable accepting that man is a mysterious, unpredictable creature set upon to meet its destiny under the watchful design of its Creator. But I tell must you, Rek Jaiga, we are fantastic, but not for the reason that we experience joy or pain, live or die. Any organism, with the proper receptors and stimulation can experience these feelings and conditions. You are a product of chemical reactions induced by input signals from sensory glands, shaped and molded by your diet and environment. This can be both a humbling and liberating sensation, unlike the feeling you may experience kneeling before your new overlords.

Please heed my words with careful regard. Fly safely, Rek Jaiga.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.18 11:43:00 - [45]
 

Dr. Doyle,

What Kuvakei does isn't liberation, it isn't advancement of humanity, it is the removal of it. You claim that all nations and militaries seek to accomplish but you ignore the fact that they don't seek to remove the individuality and free will of the soldier or citizen, they only seek to harness it and direct it. This is a very different thing.

Kuvakei is a prime example of extremist fanaticism, his own belief in his own dream has driven him to forsake any manner of benevolence in the pursuit of what he would force upon others. I know the signs of this well, it is the very same thing the Empire has been accused of in the past.

Mister Jaiga's recent change in direction is because he sees Kuvakei and his "dream" for what they are, one man's vision of perfection being forced upon others and achieved at any cost and with any method possible.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.18 12:00:00 - [46]
 

Dr. Doyle:

Your logic is very strong. You conveniently fail to factor in moral considerations however.
Rather than use paragraphs-long counter-reasoning, I shall simply use a cryptic analogy as I'm wont to do.


Kuvakei is an artist who could very well produce the most beautiful painting ever made. The problem? In order to do so he must sacrifice every other human; the painting consists of blood and entrails. Who, then, is left to appreciate the art?

The blind pursuit of science and knowledge is meaningless without direction. I don't give a damn about "progress" if it's only benefiting one man.

Sierra'Kor
Advent's Reach
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:01:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

To Sierra'Kor: I'm surprised to hear you've rejected Kuvakei too! You were pretty silent about it. How've you been?


Been alright, tons of work getting the Advent going. And, let's face it, publicly saying that I am now his enemy before I even got the foundations worked on wouldn't have been the wisest move.

We really must catch up, I have a theory you would appreciate what the Advent has accomplished so far and what it stands for.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:44:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

The blind pursuit of science and knowledge is meaningless without direction. I don't give a damn about "progress" if it's only benefiting one man.


In any case, this is not possible if he is alone. This is also why the Nation are mostly technology Scavengers.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.18 16:25:00 - [49]
 

Moral considerations...I suddenly have the urge to vomit at the prospect of what the Empire deems moral. There is only one moral imperative we need consider: the survival, propagation, and evolution of our species as a whole.

Mr. Valadeus has provided the necessary example of Coalition rhetoric with use of the humanity to describe Nation's lack thereof. Because the concept is foreign to him, because he lacks the will to understand Nation's vision, it is labelled inhuman. To kill is human. To destroy is human. To control is human. A man conjured this dream, and men and women see it to fruition. Recognize what humanity is capable of and cease to limit yourself with blinders.

As for you, Rek Jaiga, either you have not read my response or conveniently ignored the subtle underpinnings of my point. Sansha Kuvakei did not create wormholes, nor did he design the implant technology alone, just as he does not control his vast military alone. Scientists are still necessary for these functions. Artists are still free to create. You must understand that what you see on the battlefield is not a representation of Nation's society. It is a world where those of capable mind are free to invent, create, and lead, free of the ethical constraints that have choked the scientific community under Imperial authority.

The fate of our species rests on the future leaders of each civilization. Do you feel confident that the God Empress will usher in the progress and development that our species deserves? I most certainly do not.

Jev North
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Renee Khalida
...

Mmm. A face I haven't seen before, and a few neurons actually firing to go with it. Interesting.

Originally by: Renee Khalida
Because if you truly want to stand against Sansha's Nation, I believe you need a more sophisticated understanding of what it is we're fighting against, and that you need to view the Nation within a broader context.

Clear seeing is praiseworthy, yes, but I like to believe one needn't have a particularly sophisticated justification. All the motivation in this particular fight one'd need is the realization that if the old man wins, of all possible motivations, reasoning, and lines of argument for getting into a good tussle you might have been trying on, only one is going to count, and it's not going to be your own.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.18 23:17:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Nola Doyle
Scientists are still necessary for these functions. Artists are still free to create. You must understand that what you see on the battlefield is not a representation of Nation's society. It is a world where those of capable mind are free to invent, create, and lead, free of the ethical constraints that have choked the scientific community under Imperial authority.


I do not deny that there are True Citizens who are not Integrated aiding or running Nation. I just do not understand your fascination with "the cream of the crop" elites: scientists and such. I respect most scientists because they attempt to reveal the physical truths and natural laws of the universe. I do not believe scientists to be inherently better people, however. Wisdom, rather than intelligence, should be the primary factor when choosing a leader, and wisdom is not gained through university studies.

My father, God bless his soul, was a working man (as all servants to Holders are). He was very wise, calm, and humble. I will forever respect people of the fields and blue collar over fanatical Nation scientists; they inherit the wisdom of the world.

Originally by: Nola Doyle
The fate of our species rests on the future leaders of each civilization. Do you feel confident that the God Empress will usher in the progress and development that our species deserves? I most certainly do not.

I am confident that "progress" is much less relevant than how we do things. I am also confident The Most Beneficient will bestow the best gifts to our species, if He wills it.

Humble yourself and you may yet realize that the key to true progress is not new gadgets, but rather your very soul.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 11:11:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Nola Doyle
Moral considerations...I suddenly have the urge to vomit at the prospect of what the Empire deems moral. There is only one moral imperative we need consider: the survival, propagation, and evolution of our species as a whole.

Mr. Valadeus has provided the necessary example of Coalition rhetoric with use of the humanity to describe Nation's lack thereof. Because the concept is foreign to him, because he lacks the will to understand Nation's vision, it is labelled inhuman. To kill is human. To destroy is human. To control is human. A man conjured this dream, and men and women see it to fruition. Recognize what humanity is capable of and cease to limit yourself with blinders.



Interesting, so I am spouting Coalition rhetoric? Your accusations are ignorant and baseless, doctor, I expected better from a self-proclaimed scientist.

"To kill is human. To destroy is human. To control is human." This is an inaccurate and incomplete assertion. To do any of the above things with freedom of will, consciousness and clarity is human.

A drone or mechanical entity could do any of those things at the direction of a higher consciousness, with no will to do so or to resist doing so on its own. It is not human, yet it does all of what you describe "is human." Interestingly enough, that sounds a lot like your Nation.

I don't need to look far to demonstrate to you how Kuvakei takes the will and individuality from someone and forces them into his service at his will. A certain recent interview brings that to light pretty readily. Kuvakei isn't even trying to hide it, so why are you trying to reason it away?

Remove your blinders Dr. Doyle and realize that what Kuvakei is doing, no matter how revolutionary it sounds, no matter how utopian it sounds, is absolutely nothing new to the cluster. We're not as blind and ignorant as you claim we are just because we haven't bought in to the same old "my vision is the best vision for all of humanity" rhetoric that Kuvakei spouts.

Victoria Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:13:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Victoria Valadeus on 19/08/2011 12:14:42
You seem to have forgotten one, Dr Doyle. Or perhaps, omitted it:

To err is human.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.19 16:01:00 - [54]
 

I must admit that while disappointed I am less than surprised in the reaction thus far. Rek Jaiga, you are nothing but a fraud and a charlatan, a man with many masks to wear when convenient for you. However, I don't fault you for this survival instinct, I merely caution you that your lies and misdirection may one day lead you to a corner with no exit.

Nevertheless, your commentary will serve as a broader message for the public that reads this communication.

I am a scientist and an inventor. I serve many other roles during the course of my life, but this is my primary function thus far. Individuals that display exceptional leadership ability should assume such a role, especially in society. In the Federation, we see what happens when individuals with poor leadership ability and lots of ISK to compensate, disrupt and ultimately ruin the natural process.

I have no aspirations for leadership, but I assume this role in my corporation because it is necessary. I possess the wisdom to recognize the ability of superior leaders and the failed power structures wielded by the CONCORD-protected empires. This isn't just the fate of a civilization we're discussing, but the future of our species, and allowing it to be directed by substandard or inept leadership is an irresponsible and immoral proposition to simply stand by and let it idly continue.

Rek Jaiga, it is unfortunate that your respect for your father doesn't translate to something more tangible. Wisdom would recognize from observation of laborers that actual labor is required for results to happen. Waiting for a Most Beneficient one to bestow our species with miracles is not only lazy but irresponsible.

And to you Mr. Valadeus, a defender of the Empire, and by extension a Coalition supporter, tout the same mantra as your peers. You observe Nation soldiers in battle and make the same foolhardy assumption that every member of their society serves in the same capacity. Speak with any citizen of Sansha's Nation and you will soon discover that serving in such a capacity is considered an honor and a blessing.

To further deconstruct your point, True Slaves are conscious and react according to a hive structure, meaning that consciousness does exist, just not at a primitive singular manner that you are accustomed to. Simply because men were not born with wings doesn't imply that it is inhuman to fly; we adapted and evolved with our ingenuity to achieve this.

It is your kind, your unwillingness to see progress and opportunity, and your fear of our potential that leads us on a path to oblivion, Mr. Valadeus. Trust me, I've dealt with your backward thinking bedfellows most of my adult life in the scientific community, and persists as I delve into the world of Capsuleers.

Their is nothing more inhumane than being in possession of free will and choosing to ignore the responsibility to your species. One need only look at the millions of homeless, the barbarity of your border conflicts, and the wanton destruction in the lawless reaches of space in the name of personal prosperity to see the price of such behavior.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 16:28:00 - [55]
 

Good heavens, and you call yourself a doctor of logical thinking and reasoning.

I have backwards thinking because I can see the plain evidence of forced subjection and mental reconstruction? Because the evidence is quite plainly visible, do you need me to provide you with links to a certain interview where Kuvakei clearly demonstrated his forceful subjugation over another?

I have also not denied the consciousness of the True Slaves, I've denied their freedom of will. Again, the evidence clearly indicates they lack free will, if you wish to argue with me against that point, then I will simply stop wasting my time listening to you because you try to alter the facts to suit your own beliefs rather than your own beliefs to suit the facts. That's bad science, doctor.

Furthermore, your primary issue with me seems to be that you think I am afraid of what Kuvakei has to offer. You are only half correct. I am equal parts afraid of blind zealots like yourself who think that such a state of existence is an elevation from our current state, denying all evidence to the contrary and disgusted that we failed to kill Kuvakei the first time around and he's trying again.

By all means, continue to twist reality to suit your own perceptions and surround yourself with your conclusions and beliefs while simultaneously ostracizing anyone who sees the evidence before them in a completely different light and chooses, with their free will, the very will Kuvakei seeks to enslave to oppose everything he stands for. Just don't be surprised when your thin veil of logic, reasoning and intelligence fails to mask your ignorance, biased perception and insecurity.

Nothing you can say will change the facts.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.19 17:35:00 - [56]
 

Twist and squirm all you like, Mr. Valadeus. You, like Rek Jaiga, will eventually have nowhere to squirm to.

All societies have laws and rules to maintain order. The alternative for not adhering to these rules usually involves incarceration or worse. If a man or woman wishes to do as he pleases, as it appears to be his innate right, he or she may be forcefully subjugated against their will and re-educated until they accept the laws of said society (aka, mental reconstruction). This isn't a new concept, and especially not for the Empire.

This hypocritical double-standard is just one of many reasons why I fail to respect any moral standard you deign to employ against Nation. Your societies fail to meet even your own standards.

Also, this is war, Mr. Valadeus. No one cried when the empires steamrolled into the Promised Land and reduced it to rubble over a hundred years ago, and no one will today when the the empire's brainwashed citizens, trained to hate Nation and its message, are liberated from your master's conniving clutches. This is the unfortunate price for war, and will not be the last. If Nation had no enemies, there would not be any reason to have a True Slave army; but you and I know this isn't possible.

Mr. Valadeus, you and many others romanticize the notion of free will as an innately human trait, a value higher than any other and incapable of evolution or improvement. A poor, or less optimum choice, for an individual is poor regardless of who made the decision, just as a correct decision is irrelevant to whom decides.

Countless individuals, some of whom you may know, make less than optimal choices that not only impact themselves but the entirety of society. A gifted doctor chooses to be an artist instead, and millions suffer because his potential is wasted pursuing selfish and irresponsible goals that suit no one but himself. It is this obsession with personal choice that directs our species to a downward spiral of self destruction. It is immoral to accept the gift of life yet abstain from our responsibility to the preservation of our species.

In the face of all this, I most certainly call myself a logical and humane individual.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 18:34:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Nola Doyle

All societies have laws and rules to maintain order. The alternative for not adhering to these rules usually involves incarceration or worse. If a man or woman wishes to do as he pleases, as it appears to be his innate right, he or she may be forcefully subjugated against their will and re-educated until they accept the laws of said society (aka, mental reconstruction).


The difference being their ability to choose to do as they please to start with, even after being disciplined. There is a difference between educating, disciplining and reforming from forced and final mental subjugation and reconstruction.

Also, you are repeating exactly what I said earlier that Kuvakei's "promise" and "dream" is absolutely nothing new. It is the methods he employs that are detestable. You're trying to argue petty semantics to give yourself some sort of ground to stand on. Stop.

What Kuvakei does is force you into his service, then forcefully and irreversibly reconstruct your mind to echo his own will. This effectively turns you into a machine, a drone serving the will of another rather than your own. There are other examples of similar practices and they have all been met with animosity and disgust.

Quote:

This hypocritical double-standard is just one of many reasons why I fail to respect any moral standard you deign to employ against Nation. Your societies fail to meet even your own standards.


You mean the "double-standard" that I just eviscerated above? Yeah, about that.

Quote:

Also, this is war, Mr. Valadeus. No one cried when the empires steamrolled into the Promised Land and reduced it to rubble over a hundred years ago, and no one will today when the the empire's brainwashed citizens, trained to hate Nation and its message, are liberated from your master's conniving clutches. This is the unfortunate price for war, and will not be the last. If Nation had no enemies, there would not be any reason to have a True Slave army; but you and I know this isn't possible.


Really? Interesting. Considering Kuvakei founded his Nation on the very existence of True Slaves and amassed his wealth through the study and advancement of implants to do just that. Please tell me you also know that the whole reason he was invaded and attacked the first time is because his experiments were discovered and the "army" he was building was revealed. He expected, planned for, prepared for and instigated war.

Quote:

Mr. Valadeus, you and many others romanticize the notion of free will as an innately human trait, a value higher than any other and incapable of evolution or improvement. A poor, or less optimum choice, for an individual is poor regardless of who made the decision, just as a correct decision is irrelevant to whom decides.

Countless individuals, some of whom you may know, make less than optimal choices that not only impact themselves but the entirety of society. A gifted doctor chooses to be an artist instead, and millions suffer because his potential is wasted pursuing selfish and irresponsible goals that suit no one but himself. It is this obsession with personal choice that directs our species to a downward spiral of self destruction. It is immoral to accept the gift of life yet abstain from our responsibility to the preservation of our species.


Generalizations to make a point. Free will is an innately human trait and should be valued. Your "zeal" to "preserve our species" is rationalization to commit whatever atrocities you feel are necessary to advance that goal, nothing more. Despite your worthless claims to the contrary, we're still here without your "master's" forced subjugation and we'll be here long after he fails again.

Quote:

In the face of all this, I most certainly call myself a logical and humane individual.


You're not. You're an idealistic zealot worshiping a madman.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 18:43:00 - [58]
 


Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.08.19 20:41:00 - [59]
 

Mr. Valadeus, I find myself bemused at the notion of being labelled a zealot by an Amarrian. It is riddled with such irony that I feel compelled to laugh. Nevertheless, you are free to disengage from this debate when it feels appropriate, but I assure you I will not cease until I feel satisfied with the outcome.

Education and discipline are propaganda-friendly child-safe catchphrases for mental coercion and subjugation. Your societies engineer archetypal citizens to suit their vision for their people, and thrust it on anyone within their grasp. The sinister edge is that it's subtle enough that individuals believe they have the free will to do as they please.

A child of the Empire is limited in decision based on what is acceptable to their people. Were I a citizen of the Empire, could I choose to abstain from religion? I sincerely doubt it.

This is where the double-standard rests neatly in place. Mental control is only acceptable when you're being duped into believing you have a choice. Perhaps you are content with societies feeding nonsense and lies to its people to keep them compelled to submit to its authority, but I prefer the truth.

Nation's resurgence has utilized cloning, wormholes, and control technology to wage war against the empires that destroyed His Promised Land so long ago. He has claimed your brainwashed planet-side masses and utilized them to supplement his military power. Assumption that this is the fate of all humanity is nonsense and contradictory, as evidenced by Nation citizens that have participated with their own free will during these raids. This is a bold-faced fabrication and a propaganda technique to inspire fear in people to resist Nation's efforts, as is the remainder of your ISD and CONCORD backed dossiers and profiles.

Mr. Valadeus, perhaps you are too familiar with winning arguments against your submissive wife and adopted daughter (Yes, I have observed your behavior on the Summit) with a stern word, but attempting to bark orders like a drooling slaver or tell me what I am or not to do will have no impact here. Hurling insults and declaring triumph in a debate simply makes you look more of a fool than you have already.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.19 23:20:00 - [60]
 

One does not win a debate, doctor. My interest isn't in victory or some other convoluted idea of superiority over you.

We are arguing in circles over the same things because neither of us is going to back down from our standpoint, thus continuing this debate would be entirely pointless beyond public chest beating and bravado. I clearly stated that was my point for ceasing the debate.

Every aspect of the human psyche is held in check by another aspect of the human psyche. Rationality is tempered with wisdom and compassion.

The hyper-rational, which is where you belong, forego the latter two in favor of cold logic. Whenever you reach a conclusion or make a decision based on your logic, it may be the logical or rational conclusion and decision to make. That does not always make it the right one, doctor.

That does not necessarily make you evil, but it does make you a zealot. A zealot for rationality and logic at the expense of their counterparts.

I recognize this and thus the futility in continuing to publicly debate with you. I've made every point I felt I needed to make and have nothing further to say on the matter.

If it makes you feel better about the conclusion, "I yield."


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