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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:42:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rek Jaiga on 14/08/2011 00:54:22
To the capsuleer community at large, and whomever takes an interest:

Today at approximately 21:20 Standard Time, Crimson Path was kicked out of the Shaktipat Revelators alliance. This was due to my actions in the Odatrik system, where I publicly denounced Sansha's Nation during one of their incursions.

Crimson Path was founded as a philosophical and theological think-tank with a secondary function of supporting Sansha's Nation, to be headed and directed by myself. During its time in SHARE Crimson Path played its role well, mostly in the form of propaganda creation and minor fleet operations. However behind closed doors we continued its original function of thinking and analyzing as news from across the cluster sprung up to provide us with inspiration for new ideas.

I mention Crimson Path's original function as a thinking group because it was instrumental in causing us to disagree with Nation. We've studied with controversial groups such as Sansha's Nation and the Blood Raider Covenant, yes. We've also studied with more traditional groups and learned a great deal from them as well. In all of this studying and blank staring at data-pads, I came to a conclusion that I'm sure my corp members will agree with: knowledge is meaningless without anyone to appreciate it.

Our original reasons for supporting Nation included the Utopian aspect of it and most importantly a chance to acquire unmatched amounts of knowledge about our universe and reality in general. Recently, however, it came to my attention that in Nation there is no one to appreciate knowledge; just as ants "know" how to forage for food so too will Nation "know" how all of Creation operates. What Nation does resembles instinct rather than thought.

Furthermore, I contemplated the duality of many of Nation's catch slogans. "There is no death in Nation", and how there will be "no suffering" in Kuvakei's Utopia. Of course there's no death or suffering in Nation! "Death" and "suffering" are defined by their opposites: life and joy. And how can there be death and suffering where there is no life or joy? Indeed, Nation's claims about death and suffering are accurate, but they leave out what you're losing in return.

Devoid of life-death and pain-joy, the bipedal figure before you is not a human but an empty shell; they have lost their humanity upon Integration. It is for this reason that Crimson Path can no longer support Sansha's Nation.

To my former comrades:

I wish you no ill will, for I understand the line of thinking that led you to Nation. I can only pray that through intense contemplation and meditation you will seek a more peaceful path that embraces humanity in all of its aspects (both positive and negative). At this point I believe true Unity cannot be achieved in these corpreal forms; through faith and grace you can achieve salvation and achieve Unity with The Most Beneficient and Merciful.

To my corpmates:

I thank you all for your dedicated contemplation and research. As we have always been a more or less outspoken and transparent group I will understand if you choose to stay with the Nation loyalists, or otherwise choose to go on a path that is different than mine. If you choose to follow me in repenting and kneeling before the Empire, then I look forward to seeing you in space!

This exceedingly long-winded post has been presented to you by Crimson Path. If you have any questions or are in any way effected by the events of this post please feel free to contact Rek Jaiga.

Edit: Clarification

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.14 01:35:00 - [2]
 

A very interesting, and seemingly accurate, philosophical examination.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:30:00 - [3]
 

Well, now, perhaps wisdom can still come in the abyss.

Tiberious Thessalonia
Amarr
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.14 03:24:00 - [4]
 

I am glad to see this, Rek.

If there is any way I can help you, please feel free to ask.

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.14 04:44:00 - [5]
 

Well said.

Grideris
Gallente
Fleet Coordination Command
Fleet Coordination Coalition
Posted - 2011.08.14 05:57:00 - [6]
 

I am happy to see that thought has finally prevailed. Hopefully, more of your former comrades will come to realise what you have.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:57:00 - [7]
 

Nice.

JiaLei Lian
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.14 12:22:00 - [8]
 

As disappointing as it is surprising.

Niraia
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.08.14 12:28:00 - [9]
 

Surprising that it didn't happen sooner?

Unity Laughing

Caellach Marellus
Gallente
Nephtys Ventures inc
Posted - 2011.08.14 12:35:00 - [10]
 

It is good to see that an odd coupling of rationality and a love of free thought and emotion has lead you to this choice.

Best of luck from here on out Mr Jaiga.

wurblewind
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.14 14:49:00 - [11]
 

Although I'm a little surprised at this turn of events, I suppose there have been more shocking ones of late anyway. In any case, however, I am glad that you were able to look past the ambrosia of Kuvakei's promises to find the poison within. Hopefully this will inspire those still on the fence to come back to the light. Welcome home, Rek. o7

Cmdr Baxter
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.14 16:02:00 - [12]
 

A very interesting development. There'll be quite a few capsuleers watching to see where you go from this, Captain Jaiga.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.08.14 17:27:00 - [13]
 

Feel free to throw your lot in with the Federation. Many forget the "utopian ideal" is the pursuit of many an activist in this country.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.14 17:47:00 - [14]
 

Mister Jaiga,

For what it may be worth, I commend you wholeheartedly for not only continuing to pursue the ideals that drive you, but for taking a public stand regarding them. You have proven, over the short time I have known you, to be a man of conviction among reason and the pursuit of knowledge.

It is my earnest prayer that you will find the grace you seek and that your journey will bring you into the fold of the righteous, enabling you to extend those aspects and qualities to all of humanity as we strive ever forward toward a better future.


Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:45:00 - [15]
 

I thank you all for your encouraging statements.

As for where I'll be headed now, I plan to go home to the Ammatar Mandate where I will spend a period of time repenting. I left the Mandate a Holder-less servant, and now I return a capsuleer. Needless to say I hope I can do some good here and earn the trust of Empire and Mandate.

As for Crimson Path itself each individual member may choose to do as they please. I do know most of the staff supports my decisions and will come with me to our new headquarters in the Ammatar Fleet Logistics Support station in the Nakah system. I invite anyone to come visit for anything (unless you plan to shoot at me, in which case I will be just as wily as I've always been and wish you luck in catching me).

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.14 23:17:00 - [16]
 

I liked where you were heading with your announcement until this sentence very near the end:

"If you choose to follow me in repenting and kneeling before the Empire, then I look forward to seeing you in space!"

Repenting and kneeling before a society that believes not in science and objective truth but in an oppressive orthodoxy designed to quash free thinking? Isn't this contrary to your self-professed ideals? Pilot, I believe all you've done is traded one demon for another.

Renee Khalida
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.14 23:37:00 - [17]
 

I apologize for not joining the chorus of people applauding your thoughts and analysis, even if I do stand against Sansha. Before I do, I'd rather attempt to put forward a few of my own for your consideration.

Because if you truly want to stand against Sansha's Nation, I believe you need a more sophisticated understanding of what it is we're fighting against, and that you need to view the Nation within a broader context.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Devoid of life-death and pain-joy, the bipedal figure before you is not a human but an empty shell; they have lost their humanity upon Integration. It is for this reason that Crimson Path can no longer support Sansha's Nation.


Context: If your analysis of the Nation is correct here, then they would perhaps not be alone in this regard. Like me, and most of our kind, I suspect you define yourself as a capsuleer?

Supposing you said yes, I would say to you, that you are defined then, by technology given to you by the Jove; a race well known for also having stripped themselves of emotional capabilities.

I leave the rather sticky question of consistency to you. I'd offer my own thoughts, but in this matter I've found my opinions are as subjectove as the next person's, so I doubt the value in doing so.

Nevertheless...to at least look at the issue again, within this broader context.

Sophisticated understanding: Is it Sansha's lack of humanity which disturbs us? How then can we view the Jove any differently, and perhaps how can we view ourselves as different?

If it is not that, is it the violence that rallies us against him? The forceful abduction of millions? How is Sansha any worse than the numerous other factions that are guilty of the same, or of even greater atrocities, some of which have been going on for generations?

Any observation about the Nation's words and actions should be carefully and conservatively assesed, of course. Claims have proven to be untrue. Information has proven to be misinformation. Yet it also seems reasonable that some of what the Nation says and does serves the purpose of spreading their message (or propaganda, perhaps). Just as you do, Mr. Raiga, I trust the oft-stated claim that there is "No death in Nation" and I similarly agree that there is quite a deal more to it all than just that.

Yet the Nation has said other things which must be considered with equal if not greater depth than the most repeated phrases.

For one, Kuvakei considers us "heirs to a mistake"; presumably meaning that the Jove are the mistake, and that our existence as capsuleers continuates it. Quite a position to take, really. It suggests Kuvakei wants to derail the Jovian plan for us, and has his own reasons as to why that is a good thing.

It's not something we'd like to admit: that really Sansha and other factions are importantly similar in many ways, and that the only unarguably salient point - the one thing that really sets Sansha apart - is that he wants to remove us from power, and that we are almost entirely united against that "dream".

Often you hear talk about inhumanity and violence. Rare it is, when I hear a capsuleer state that they are fighting for their existence, and rarer still, do I hear it said (even by Sansha's most vocal capsuleer supporters, for obvipus reasons) that we are fighting to keep the enormous priviliges the Jove have given us.

If our motivations in this battle are to be truly noble, we must first question ourselves, and be sure why we fight. I have my own reasons, I suggest others ask deeply of themselves, "what are mine?"

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Renee Khalida
Supposing you said yes, I would say to you, that you are defined then, by technology given to you by the Jove; a race well known for also having stripped themselves of emotional capabilities.


This is a blatently obvious non sequitur, Cpt. Khalida: I'm not surprised to stumble over it, though, in a text from someone who's in Cpt. Jenneth's corporation.

Just because someone sees himself as a capsuleer doesn't mean he is entirely defined by "technology given to you by the Jove". And even if it would, being defined by that technology wouldn't mean that one is stripped per definition of emotional capabilities or such.

So... as the context you put down as a fundament for your 'sophisticated understanding' seems to be not accurate, your understanding is at least not well founded, at worst outright false. I tend to the latter, as you seem to be in a similar state of mind as you CEO.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella

Repenting and kneeling before a society that believes not in science and objective truth but in an oppressive orthodoxy designed to quash free thinking? Isn't this contrary to your self-professed ideals? Pilot, I believe all you've done is traded one demon for another.


You think the Amarr do not believe in science and objective truth? You are quite mistaken.

To say the Amarr reject objective truth is to imply that they embrace subjective truth (that is, subjectivism). This is clearly not the case! The Empire has a long tradition of putting its foot down and declaring certain truths to be so. The Empire also has a tradition of intellectually or theologically defending/enforcing these truths through organizations such as the Theology Council.

As for the bit about science, you are again mistaken. You may think of there being two testaments to God: one is the Scriptures (words and commandments directly from God, in a form we are able to comprehend) and the natural laws of the universe. The natural laws of the universe were not revealed to us by God as the Scriptures were. Rather, the Amarr developed and refined scientific methods for revealing them. Thus, your statement about the Amarr not believing in science is false.

Renee Khalida
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:49:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Renee Khalida on 15/08/2011 01:49:51


Ms. Mithra:

You say my reasoning doesn't follow, an interesting opinion which I welcome some thought on, but you've offered no reasoning of your own as to why it doesn't. You've just claimed something is the case and left it at that.

Perhaps, because you seem to think that I have followed previous discussions you've had with Aria? Well, I am not her, and I don't know what you may have said in the past, I'm afraid.

Additionally, I would point out that you've no need to argue against me on the idea that if one defines themselves as a capsuleer they're stripped of emotional capabilities. I make no such argument. I apologize if that was not clear. My own capacity for emotion is evidence enough against it.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Renee Khalida
I apologize for not joining the chorus of people applauding your thoughts and analysis, even if I do stand against Sansha. Before I do, I'd rather attempt to put forward a few of my own for your consideration.


Quite fine! I welcome an intellectual discussion at any time.




Originally by: Renee Khalida

Context: If your analysis of the Nation is correct here, then they would perhaps not be alone in this regard. Like me, and most of our kind, I suspect you define yourself as a capsuleer?

Supposing you said yes, I would say to you, that you are defined then, by technology given to you by the Jove; a race well known for also having stripped themselves of emotional capabilities.


I do count myself as being a capsuleer, yes. However, I reject the notion that we are similar to Nation because we are just like any regular person: we experience life-death and pain-joy. We experience death because we are not immortal! If you believe the capsuleer to be mortal you clearly haven't studied thermodynamics (and before someone barges in and says "But heat death is a long way off!" I must point out that entropy applies to economics as well as energy; the logistics for supporting a capsuleer will at some point be exhausted thus making us mortal).



Originally by: Renee Khalida

Sophisticated understanding: Is it Sansha's lack of humanity which disturbs us? How then can we view the Jove any differently, and perhaps how can we view ourselves as different?


I have stated above why we may count ourselves as different. As for the Jove, they experience suffering just like unmodified humans do. They are, after all, suffering from a plague of sorts. As for their emotions, at the very least they still have emotions. While I think it dangerous to modify core elements of basic human behavior I do not count the Jove as being non-human. I'd like to know how Amarrian thinkers feel about this as well.




Originally by: Renee Khalida

For one, Kuvakei considers us "heirs to a mistake"; presumably meaning that the Jove are the mistake, and that our existence as capsuleers continuates it. Quite a position to take, really. It suggests Kuvakei wants to derail the Jovian plan for us, and has his own reasons as to why that is a good thing.


Capsuleers are human. If there is anything inherently wrong with us it is human nature.

Originally by: Renee Khalida

If our motivations in this battle are to be truly noble, we must first question ourselves, and be sure why we fight. I have my own reasons, I suggest others ask deeply of themselves, "what are mine?"

I agree entirely; the world is changed by first looking in the mirror and changing yourself. I know my reasons.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.15 02:17:00 - [22]
 

Cpt. Khalida,

My apologies for the ellipsis - I thought you were able to infer that I attack your notion that if we define ourselves as capsuleers we have to reinvestigate whether we're also human, something yxou implied by 'our kind' defining itself as 'capsuleers'.

This, obviously is not following, just as it doesn't follow from someone defining himself as soldier that he can't define himself as human as well or that he has to reinvestigate whether he is human or not.

I think Cpt. Jaiga pointed it out in more depth than I'm willing to do here.

-

Cpt. Jaiga,

Considering the Jove, we have a certain lack of information, but given all the information we have, I'd agree that they seem to be quite human.


Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Sierra'Kor
Advent's Reach
Posted - 2011.08.15 04:25:00 - [23]
 

Rek, I am glad that you have kept your objective sense about you even through all this time with SHARE. Even I got lost in the ideal without seeing the big picture from time to time, so I know how easy it can be. I commend your ability to hold true to your goals even if given yourself onto the Empire confuses me a little.

The Advent separated from SHARE and Nation proper through similar views and stepping back from the Dream to ask the questions that needed to be asked. We didn't make such an announcement of pursuing our own course, but then I, we, didn't see the point beyond informing Ghost Hunter. Then again, we had no intention of rejoining the empires so I guess there wasn't a point.

I digress, Rek, we should get together sometime and catch up. I would be interested to hear how Crimson Path's ideals and perceptions have evolved since I left.

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.15 05:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Gottii
Well said.


Heh. Up until the point you asked us to kneel before the Empress. I doubt many will find much joy and life there.

I should be more careful when reading...

Markius TheShed
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:00:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

TLDR: I've left 1 group who enslave people to join another group enslaving people.

And I've Moved to our new headquarters in the Ammatar Fleet Logistics Support station in the Nakah system.


We will have to drop in and give your new HQ a house warming with Auto cannons and a few missiles, And I'm sure the Ammatar will welcome you back as you will be the only ones fighting for them.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Markius TheShed


We will have to drop in and give your new HQ a house warming with Auto cannons and a few missiles, And I'm sure the Ammatar will welcome you back as you will be the only ones fighting for them.


I will be flattered if you go through with this.

And though I may be the only ship, I won't be the only one fighting. The Creator watches over us all.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:58:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

I have stated above why we may count ourselves as different. As for the Jove, they experience suffering just like unmodified humans do. They are, after all, suffering from a plague of sorts. As for their emotions, at the very least they still have emotions. While I think it dangerous to modify core elements of basic human behavior I do not count the Jove as being non-human. I'd like to know how Amarrian thinkers feel about this as well.



Originally by: Renee Khalida
Supposing you said yes, I would say to you, that you are defined then, by technology given to you by the Jove; a race well known for also having stripped themselves of emotional capabilities.


This is only partly true. What is called the Social Eclipse hardly refers to a full deletion of their emotional capabilities. They removed their basic aggressive emotions, going a little further with reproduction, from the pieces we can gather, but this constitutes hardly a full suppression of emotional capabilities, or they would not even strive to survive, at least the Modifiers. In the case of the Jove, they are apparently positionned just between a full emotional state of mind, and an emotional limbo, which leads to the Disease in question and make them occasionally suicide themselves.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Originally by: Anabella Rella

Repenting and kneeling before a society that believes not in science and objective truth but in an oppressive orthodoxy designed to quash free thinking? Isn't this contrary to your self-professed ideals? Pilot, I believe all you've done is traded one demon for another.


You think the Amarr do not believe in science and objective truth? You are quite mistaken.

To say the Amarr reject objective truth is to imply that they embrace subjective truth (that is, subjectivism). This is clearly not the case! The Empire has a long tradition of putting its foot down and declaring certain truths to be so. The Empire also has a tradition of intellectually or theologically defending/enforcing these truths through organizations such as the Theology Council.

As for the bit about science, you are again mistaken. You may think of there being two testaments to God: one is the Scriptures (words and commandments directly from God, in a form we are able to comprehend) and the natural laws of the universe. The natural laws of the universe were not revealed to us by God as the Scriptures were. Rather, the Amarr developed and refined scientific methods for revealing them. Thus, your statement about the Amarr not believing in science is false.


As much as I agree, you must consider that everyone in the current state of affairs embrace subjective truths, except maybe some of the more advanced empires (Sleepers, etc) but I highly doubt it to be the case yet. Other than that, yes, Scriptures are one path to Absolute Truth.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:07:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Markius TheShed
Originally by: Rek Jaiga

TLDR: I've left 1 group who enslave people to join another group enslaving people.

And I've Moved to our new headquarters in the Ammatar Fleet Logistics Support station in the Nakah system.


We will have to drop in and give your new HQ a house warming with Auto cannons and a few missiles, And I'm sure the Ammatar will welcome you back as you will be the only ones fighting for them.


I assure you that you are quite mistaken in this assessment.

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:38:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Markius TheShed
Originally by: Rek Jaiga

TLDR: I've left 1 group who enslave people to join another group enslaving people.

And I've Moved to our new headquarters in the Ammatar Fleet Logistics Support station in the Nakah system.


We will have to drop in and give your new HQ a house warming with Auto cannons and a few missiles, And I'm sure the Ammatar will welcome you back as you will be the only ones fighting for them.


I assure you that you are quite mistaken in this assessment.


For once, I agree with Raze, Rek Jaiga has my support, As well as the support of another ex-SHARE corp "Of Fath Power and Glory". I will gladly engage Marcius again too. Last time, miscommunications, stained our honor a bit, but rest assured, it won't go down like that next time.

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:19:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

You think the Amarr do not believe in science and objective truth? You are quite mistaken.

To say the Amarr reject objective truth is to imply that they embrace subjective truth (that is, subjectivism). This is clearly not the case! The Empire has a long tradition of putting its foot down and declaring certain truths to be so. The Empire also has a tradition of intellectually or theologically defending/enforcing these truths through organizations such as the Theology Council...



I emphasized the important part where you agree with me for your convenience.

I stand by my original statement about subjective "truths" being forced upon the masses by an oppressive orthodoxy. You're of course free to prostrate yourself before said orthodoxy but, kindly don't try to call yourself a think tank or scientific organization when your conclusions must be filtered and approved by your church.

If your organization tomorrow morning made an empirically backed discovery that was also then verified by multiple independent sources, but was subsequently ruled heretical by the Theology Council, what would your reaction be?



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