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Warlord Shat
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Posted - 2011.08.13 19:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Warlord Shat on 14/08/2011 17:10:21
Edited by: Warlord Shat on 13/08/2011 20:08:05
Make then Covert Ops, So they can use Black ops Jump Portal

Gives them a Useful Role and an entery point to Recon Cruisers, You would use a falcon over the kitsune

But it cuts down the dowmtime of not being to day anything for around 2-3 months while waiting to be able Flying anything else other than a bomber.

The path for Black ops Gangs currently is,
Bomber 20 days
Recon 51 days
Black ops 111 days

So, you spent a minimum of 1 month in a bomber not being able to do anything but fly a bomber
however if you had Covert ops Electronic attack frigs as a mini recon, as you can already use a bomber, its not far from EA Frig and the ships skills would go towards the ships the Recon ships, so your training is affecting your gameplay and not just dead training while you wait.

EDIT - Revised idea, Make them able to use a Black ops bridge, Give them a standard Cloak however take away the locking delay, The reason i have changed this because in my orginal post i didnt think about warping cloaked and how unfair it would make them. But we do need to make them used


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.13 19:41:00 - [2]
 

while making them a covert ship seems a good idea, I do feel that making everything that is b0rked in this game, a covert ship isn't the correct way to fix them.

Warlord Shat
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:42:00 - [3]
 

Very true, that they shouldnt fix ship by just putting a cloak on, however in this case it works very well, because it would create a near unused ship into a very useful addition to black ops gangs

also wouldnt upset the balance

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:14:00 - [4]
 

Seems like a reasonable suggestion but I would much prefer that they actually fix these ships.

illirdor
Gallente
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:14:00 - [5]
 

they should make a force recon ship like the pilgrim/falcon and so one :D in frigate hull :)

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2011.08.14 03:25:00 - [6]
 

I have to admit that this would defiantly give electronic attack frigates a better role than the one it sits in now. Without a doubt electronic attack frigates are a very seldom sight to see this would give the ship a respectable role while also getting a nearly unused ship in the game a second chance.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2011.08.14 06:58:00 - [7]
 

I've for a while been of the opinion that EAF should be powerful enough to lock down a single ship, up to battleship class, while relying entirely on speed and sig tanking. Give all 4 the Hyena's sig radius bonus, give them good speed and agility (but less than intys) and good enough ewar bonuses.

Caldari enough to nearly permajam, gallente enough to sensor damp down to something like less than 5km targeting range, amarr tracking disruption (i don't know much about this) and minmatar strong enough target painters to get full damage on a cruiser with torpedoes.

They would have to figure out a slot arrangement where this would be only really be feasible against a single ship at a time, but that would give them a good role in the game without making them instant win buttons, or overshadowing recon ships. Stripping down the fitting options would give a good justification for the increased speed/agility and decreased sig being built in.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.14 08:24:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
I've for a while been of the opinion that EAF should be powerful enough to lock down a single ship, up to battleship class, while relying entirely on speed and sig tanking. Give all 4 the Hyena's sig radius bonus, give them good speed and agility (but less than intys) and good enough ewar bonuses.

Caldari enough to nearly permajam, gallente enough to sensor damp down to something like less than 5km targeting range, amarr tracking disruption (i don't know much about this) and minmatar strong enough target painters to get full damage on a cruiser with torpedoes.


Are you trolling? I ask because they can already do what you seem to think they can't.

Hell a Keres can damp a carrier down to well under point range, Sentinel is a mini-Curse (and is a lot of fun), Kitsune can permajam a single ship unless its specifically fitted ECCM/Jackals. The Hyena is the fairly useless EAF, if there is one.

Cost is the driving factor as to why people don't use them. Its not bonuses - well maybe in the case of the Hyena - its the fact that the EAF ships aren't 4 times as good as the racial cruisers but they are 4 times the price. If they were 5-10mill a pop you'd see a LOT more of them even with current bonuses.

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.14 09:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
I've for a while been of the opinion that EAF should be powerful enough to lock down a single ship, up to battleship class, while relying entirely on speed and sig tanking. Give all 4 the Hyena's sig radius bonus, give them good speed and agility (but less than intys) and good enough ewar bonuses.

Caldari enough to nearly permajam, gallente enough to sensor damp down to something like less than 5km targeting range, amarr tracking disruption (i don't know much about this) and minmatar strong enough target painters to get full damage on a cruiser with torpedoes.


Are you trolling? I ask because they can already do what you seem to think they can't.

Hell a Keres can damp a carrier down to well under point range, Sentinel is a mini-Curse (and is a lot of fun), Kitsune can permajam a single ship unless its specifically fitted ECCM/Jackals. The Hyena is the fairly useless EAF, if there is one.

Cost is the driving factor as to why people don't use them. Its not bonuses - well maybe in the case of the Hyena - its the fact that the EAF ships aren't 4 times as good as the racial cruisers but they are 4 times the price. If they were 5-10mill a pop you'd see a LOT more of them even with current bonuses.


You're right, but then no one would use the cruisers. Atm:

Blackbird > Kitsune
Bellicose > Hyena
Arbitrator > Sentinel
Celestis > Keres

EAF main competitor are the t1 cruisers, in most situations, considering skill utility, you'll get a cheaper ship with better bonuses using the t1 cruisers, as most people have racial cruiser maxed, and very few have EAF anywhere near maxed. Then comes cost, fitting and added slot/drone utility, and the t1 cruiser ends up being the ship of choice.

The problem with making the EAF cheaper, is that they'll make people stop using said cruisers, which would be a shame. Hence making the EAF into a mini-recon, while keeping it's high cost, would be a better balance option. Then you can still go cheap with the cruisers, effective with the EAF or full on with the recons.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.14 09:26:00 - [10]
 

You may be right, however most people who indulge in PvP have at least one racial cruiser trained to L5. If they have EAS at all then they are exceptionally unlikely to have L5 - hardly anyone outside Alliance Tourneys has that.

So yeah they'd be around the same price but would require training for most people and still have nowhere near the EHP of racial cruisers. That's enough of a difference I think.

Warlord Shat
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:10:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Warlord Shat on 14/08/2011 11:11:25
See i am in the exact position currently, i can only fly a bomber and ive been training for a curse/pilgrim for around 2 months

And i would of loved to have a mid point in which my training was not wasted for 2 month (as in the fact that it doesnt affect my current gameplay) The only time i see the effect is as soon as i can get into the curse/pilgrim

However if i could of used a sential, it would of been a very nice way to let my training affect my gameplay

And i as i said it would give an unused ship a very popular role

EDIT - To the post above it wouldnt be in direct competion to the Cruisers, it would be a steping point

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:20:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Othran on 14/08/2011 11:20:22
Originally by: Warlord Shat
Edited by: Warlord Shat on 14/08/2011 11:11:25
See i am in the exact position currently, i can only fly a bomber and ive been training for a curse/pilgrim for around 2 months

And i would of loved to have a mid point in which my training was not wasted for 2 month (as in the fact that it doesnt affect my current gameplay) The only time i see the effect is as soon as i can get into the curse/pilgrim

However if i could of used a sential, it would of been a very nice way to let my training affect my gameplay

And i as i said it would give an unused ship a very popular role

EDIT - To the post above it wouldnt be in direct competion to the Cruisers, it would be a steping point


You can use the Sentinel as a Curse trainer now. The Curse can't use a covops cloak either so use the Sentinel on frigates - most will run, just like most cruiser class ships will run from a Curse.

Making them "Force Recon Lite" will make the EAS well overpowered, for example the Keres warping cloaked would be insanely overpowered with the damp and point/scram bonuses it has. It'd become FoTM instantly.

NB - I don't much care what CCP do with EAS this Winter (allegedly its being "looked at") as I'm close to nerf-proof on everything below BS now.

Warlord Shat
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:25:00 - [13]
 

The curse wasnt the best example, Neither is the Pilgrim, Because they have no use in a Black ops Gang

But the Falcon & Rapier is a great example

iKill Giants
Eternal Phoenix Rises
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Zeerover


Blackbird > Kitsune
Bellicose > Hyena
Arbitrator > Sentinel
Celestis > Keres



I would just like to point out the lack of warp disruption and web bonuses on the Celestis and Bellicose. Technically the Arbitrator has no neut bonuses to match the Sentinel either, but it can fit medium neuts and have more drones with the same TD effect so I'll give you that. Caldari has only one type of ewar they specialize in, so not much to disagree with there either.

But what you're missing is the crucial idea behind anyone flying a frigate of any type in the first place, or indeed flying anything besides the biggest, baddest ship they can. Mobility. Mobility is why nano-HACs, Minmatar, frigate gangs, propulsion mods, stasis webifiers, Rapiers, Daredevils, and Cartel ships are all used as much as they are.

Mobility is the end-all of any skirmish, and a Kitsune is a hell of a lot more mobile than the Blackbird. TDing works more in the Sentinel's favor when it has the orbit speed to augment it. And, well, the same goes for the Hyena and Keres of course, but they hardly need arguing for, already having useful bonuses in their favor.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:32:00 - [15]
 

They don't need major surgery and certainly not a cloak.

Increase the survivability a tad by upping speed and cutting a bit off the signatures .. doubt much more is needed.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.14 11:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Othran on 14/08/2011 11:44:20
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
They don't need major surgery and certainly not a cloak.

Increase the survivability a tad by upping speed and cutting a bit off the signatures .. doubt much more is needed.


Its either/or. Buffing the ship a little might help. Cutting production costs might help.

Main problem for anyone making them now is the very low turnover. That in turn means margins must be higher which turns into a vicious circle of the ship costing too much for many people to buy.

As things stand now the Keres is about the only EAS which comes close to justifying the price tag. Even then it only makes sense in small gangs where your chances of dying are much higher.

I think as a first step CCP should just cut the cost of manufacture such that there is a decent margin for the inventor @ 10mill per ship selling price. See what happens before trying buffs/whatever.

Dravidshky
Posted - 2011.08.14 14:04:00 - [17]
 

I think each race should have 2 EAFs. It's the only T2 frigate type that you only get one of, each race gets two AFs, 2 Interceptors, 2 cov ops frigates but only 1 EAF.
So give each race a second EAF and give one of them the cov ops cloak and make the other one a bit more powerful, just like with the recon cruisers.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:30:00 - [18]
 

As someone who loves and flies the Sentinel enough to have trained EAFs to 5, adding covert ops capability would be a bad idea.

Can you imagine every gate in null sec being camped by a covert cloaking frigate that can neut, tracking disrupt, and jam (via ECM drones) whatever ship that pops through the gate? Goodbye interceptors, long live the Sentinel.

Terrifying.

EAFs do need love, but iirc EAFs and AFs are next in line to be revisited by CCP whenever they get around to more ship balancing work.

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:21:00 - [19]
 

just give EAF a coert ops cloak... then its fixed...

Ines Tegator
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:52:00 - [20]
 

I actually like this idea, although as pointed out it would need to (at minimum) retain the de-cloak targeting penalty. It would give more spice to covert gangs and EAF's both. I do like the update as well, with bridge and standard cloak. In that case, I'd say reduce the locking delay (5-10 seconds) and eliminated the scan resolution penalty. With no delay at all, they'll just be camping everywhere.

However, as a Sentinel fan, I think it's overkill and that there's really only two main things holding them back. One is price (20m average for a Senty, 12m for a interceptor) and their low EHP and large sig, even by frigate standards. Fix those and you'll see them a lot more often.

Spookyjay
Caldari
Animosity.
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:16:00 - [21]
 

No we do not need more cloaky *** gangs running round only presenting them self to any risk when they have already won. lower the sig so that they aint fast but are hard to hit. Done.

Elektra Martinez
Amarr
Northern Grit Shifters
Supernova Federation
Posted - 2011.08.16 08:13:00 - [22]
 

Naah, donít think we need more cloakies. Iíd rather see EAFís getting a little love towards speed and signature radius, salted with a tiny bonus to damage output.

How about logistic frigs?


 

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