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blankseplocked [Arek'Jaalan] A nation divided.
 
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The TickTockMan
Amarr
Casual Brutality
Posted - 2011.08.13 02:42:00 - [1]
 

Brothers, Sisters, and Distant Cousins of Arek’ Jaalan,

I am having trouble putting into words my feelings about our policies that allow Nation sympathizers to contribute to our project-so please forgive any lack of crystallization as I organise my thoughts.

The decision to accept the inclusion of known Sansha confederates into our loose-knit project has been a very difficult one for me. There are many facets which I simply cannot in good conscience reconcile. The most prominent of which simply gnaws at my conscience-Sansha’s Nations inclusion means any data we receive from them comes with a taint so foul, only those most bereft of basic human decency could stomach any benefit gleaned from it.

Noble of intent, as our project aspires to be, is it fitting to capitalise on any discovery, regardless of whence it comes? Shall we ask ourselves, Arek’ Jaalan, would it be noble of us to accept any data at all, as it will always come with the suspicion of how it was attained? Not knowing, nay not even considering whom they may have killed, or interrogated, or even which innocent, but newly ‘indoctrinated’ abductees who have had their mind picked clean by Kuvakei’s insidious nanites. How many heads-in-jars must be presented to us, to be used as decryptors, before it becomes more than distasteful? Will we conveniently ignore our own complicity in these crimes?

Is it in the name of science that we accept them amongst us, these destroyers of self determination? Do we soothe ourselves with phrases like ‘great purpose’ or ‘meritocracy’ and ‘pluralistic endeavour’ to ease ourselves into restful sleep?

Do we accept them to leadership roles and entrust them with our security, all the while, waiting for their inevitable attempt to deliver us to their master?

Do we accept them for the sake of appearing pluralistic? And secretly hope they marginalise themselves? It seems to be an appropriate political stance in the sense that it reeks of moral cowardice.

The public scorn we invite upon our project by their inclusion into our ranks is a fit and just condemnation, as we seem to spit in the eyes of the families who’ve lost loved ones to Kuvakei’s madness. Not to mention the shameful tarnish we add to the memory of those that gave their lives in the fight against him. Those potential contributors to the project we drive away, will far outweigh any suspect contributions from those friendly to Nation.

Should those that object to Sansha’s inclusion, just hold our collective noses and bury our revulsion, until they’re revealed as the detriment they are?

Uraniae Fehrnah
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:42:00 - [2]
 

It seems this issue never settles. I do not speak for the whole of the Project, I speak only for myself when I say this. If you are the sort of person to find such issue with various loyalist pilots, be they of Sansha's Nation or truly any specific group at all, that it would trouble you to work beside them, then simply don't. Now this means you can either not actively work with them in the project, or you can withdraw from the project entirely.

The choice is yours and I'll say no more on the issue as, quite frankly, it seems to come up on a nearly hourly basis.

Drake Arson
Minmatar
Redicuously Awesome Winged Reptiles
Arson Industries
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:47:00 - [3]
 

The AJ project is an apolitical organization that is determined to stay out of politics and join forces, no matter the body it belongs too, into working forward in the name of science.

Removing any faction simply because they are rather disliked to certain individuals will incite such a massive case of... issues... that I do not even wish to fathom the problems it would cause.

Mr. Tukoss has stated, many MANY times, there will be no exclusions of any faction simply because of there past or future actions.

I wish this would be the last of these messages, but it will not. Oh well.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:52:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 13/08/2011 04:02:26
I'll say this, as just a single pilot, rather than as anyone in any position:

I'm done defending Drake's involvement and the involvement of the Nation due to recent events. They cannot be trusted as people who can help the project. There is a meeting coming up, and I intend to make my wider view on this known during it.

Your actions, Drake, have already hurt us more than you realise right now. You've hurt not one, but at least three projects I've been working on for a very, very long time even before this all came about.

Your actions have proven every single concern anyone outside or inside the project has had about you absolutely one hundred percent correct.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.13 08:38:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Uraniae Fehrnah
If you are the sort of person to find such issue with various loyalist pilots, be they of Sansha's Nation or truly any specific group at all, that it would trouble you to work beside them, then simply don't.


This is exactly the issue people like Arson or Neferis like to utilize.

Decent people with morals and standards have issues working with people who lack those. People who lack those do not have issues working with people who have them. If you are "all-inclusive", you end up with a group of people mostly consisting of people who lack them.

It is impossible to be "open to everyone". You have to choose.

Guthris
Neotronix Defensive Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.13 09:38:00 - [6]
 

People seem to be really good at blaiming others when they werrnt the ones that stepped up a lead when that time was there. I dare you to step up and show me how its done Mr. TickTockMan. But your gonna have to swallow that pride, cause some of the leads are and will remain of Nation, myself included.

Quite frankly the only thing I can say about the situation.
"Learn to work together, or leave the project."


Uraniae Fehrnah
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

This is exactly the issue people like Arson or Neferis like to utilize. ...
It is impossible to be "open to everyone". You have to choose.


Firstly, my appologies all around for apparently not keeping to my word about not saying anything further. Things seem worthy to point out.


As to your first point, who says the good, morally righteous people can't turn that around for a just cause? If the wicked can manipulate and use the righteous to do evil, then the righteous can manipulate and use the wicked to do good.

Your second point, asserting that one cannot be all-inclusive, that one must choose sides, is something I cannot agree with. Certainly a person can only be so accepting, and in large part one can only be as accepting as those being accepted allow through their own actions. Agreed upon project guidelines make it clear, anyone is welcome right up until the point they harm or impede the project.

Being Amarrian, Matari, Caldari, Gallentean, Sansha, or Sani Sabik does not, in my mind automatically harm the project in any scientific measure.

Valerie Valate
Amarr
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Posted - 2011.08.13 11:13:00 - [8]
 

Isn't the Ethics Committee supposed to handle this sort of thing?

And aren't these sort of comments undermining the Ethics Committee by having everyone blurt things out, before the committee convenes, thereby prejudicing things, hmm?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.13 11:31:00 - [9]
 

My statement was not a matter of opinion or something I consider "good and as it should be".

It was an observation.

Groups of people that are "open to everyone" tend to gravitate towards one kind, and not towards "everyone", as much as we would like that to happen.

Take something less emotionally attached - corporations that "hire everyone". Those tend to gravitate towards lower-skilled pilots that have no desire to improve. Not because those make up the majority of the pilots, but because pilots with no desire to improve have no problem flying with good pilots, while pilots who constantly work on themselves to improve get aggravated when their fellow corp members make the same mistakes over and over again. So the corp will, over time, retain the pilots with no desire to improve, while the pilots who work on themselves are more likely to leave - the decision to "be liberal" here was a decision to prefer one kind of pilot over another kind of pilot, because you can not have both kinds equally.

We can be upset about this, we can yell at the pilots who wish to improve that they should just "learn to work together", or whatever - the fact remains and it's not changed by any amount of do-gooder outrage.

The same happens with pilot loyalty. You can appeal as much as you like to everyone having to "learn to work together" - Sansha zombies and their sani sabik lackeys have no issues at all working with those who have some strange repulsion against mass abductions and murder, while many people simply feel awkward working with them. Some will learn to deal with it, others will not.

But like in the "learning / not learning" case, it's not a binary thing. It's not like everyone will just say "no". But what happens is that you have a much easier time to retain murderers and criminals, while good people are more likely to leave. Slowly, the group will gravitate towards murderers and criminals.

You can of course blame that

on the non-criminals for not being able to simply work with murderers and enjoy it. But that's a bit of a suboptimal approach to management. If a company fails, the management can not go and blame all the people who didn't apply for a job. If your group of people gravitates towards criminals and murderers, that is not the fault of the people who did not show up to balance out the criminals, but the fault of the people who did not provide an environment they could appreciate.

Now, Arek'Jaalan (I always have to check the spelling, I could go into the topic of bad marketing with difficult-to-spell names now ...) is not at that point yet. There are still a number of good people in your project, and I still have hopes it can work out.

But when you see incidents happen, the decision to go "deal with it or leave" is picking sides. Trying to tell yourself that you are oh-so-all-inclusive is self-deception, a very suboptimal management style.

I hope I could clarify my remark above.

Good luck with your project. And I mean it.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.08.13 13:30:00 - [10]
 

The thicker skulled of you forget to note that Sansha's Nation is not "just any faction". It is an anomaly, one that seeks the entire destruction of New Eden itself. I quote your glorious leader himself...

Quote:
"Our operations will not only disrupt every aspect of New Eden, they will be the end of New Eden as you know it"


Do the Angel Cartel seek this? No. Do the Serpentis seek this? No. The four empires of New Eden have reconciled their differences on numerous occasions. Take the Federation and Amarr Empire with the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement of 23210, or the Crielere Project. Even when at war, the Gallenteans and Caldari continue to interact on an economic level on both sides of the border zones, as do the Minmatar and Amarr to a far lesser degree.

You cannot say Sansha's Nation is "like any other faction" when it is the only one of its kind that seeks utter destruction of what we know. Did people forget that incursions are launched in every corner of New Eden, including places like Venal, controlled by a so-called ally of Nation? It's not a case of "if you exclude one faction, where does it stop?", no. You can exclude Sansha's Nation, self-declared enemies of New Eden, and that'll be it.

There's a reason science types get bullied in secondary school. Because they're ****ing weak, and lack any spine.

Hilen Tukoss
Caldari
Eifyr and Co.
Posted - 2011.08.13 15:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Valerie Valate
Isn't the Ethics Committee supposed to handle this sort of thing?

And aren't these sort of comments undermining the Ethics Committee by having everyone blurt things out, before the committee convenes, thereby prejudicing things, hmm?


You are quite correct, Ms. Valate. Given that we have now established protocols and guidelines that make these "comunications" unecessary, I am starting to wonder if the circumvention of Arek'Jaalan processes isn't simply one of the more subtle attempt at sabotage.

In any case...Arek'Jaalan strives for discipline. We have real work to do. I hope, by now, it will take more than some forum puffery to undermine that.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.13 15:49:00 - [12]
 

If said Ethics Committee is compromised, then? I'm not saying it is, even though I've heard rumblings here and there about it's impotence considering certain political choices therein, but if that is a concern then there's few options remaining beyond the public discussion board right here. It's quite clear, from the OP and other responses right here in this thread, that the Ethics Committee is not trusted to handle matters of this importance.

Either way, it makes little difference for me. Once more, I can only point at Sadik's words and lend my support. This all-inclusive policy is excluding a great amount of pilots throughout New Eden, and those that will in the end remain won't be the ones you want the most, Tukoss. It's getting very close to the point where I regret taking pity upon a capsuleer asking for help, and lending the strength of Electus Matari and it's allies to safeguard you in your escape. It's starting to look like a mistake which will be costly for those I care for.

Cicaedis
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.13 20:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
It's quite clear, from the OP and other responses right here in this thread, that the Ethics Committee is not trusted to handle matters of this importance.


Dr. Tukoss and Ms. Valate have the right of it.

The problem is not incompetence in the established Ethic's Committee, it's impatience in seemingly everyone else. Instant gratification is a childish notion people need to get over.


Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.13 21:10:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 13/08/2011 21:12:06
A meeting between EC and MRID has been held and the results are here. Pending review by Dr. Tukoss, the reccomendation we've made is that Drake Arson be stripped of leadership roles - but not expelled - for his actions against other members. This sets the precedent that a war declaration is enough of an action for censure and removal from leadership.

The vote was 10 in favor of this move, and 5 against

We'd also like to remind people that if you wish for diplomatic contact with the project, you contact MRID and we'd be glad to help with any issue that might arise.

Akrasjel Lanate
Gallente
Naquatech Conglomerate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.08.14 08:01:00 - [15]
 

And another issue...

What about of the recent wardeck of Syne by Arson Industries, as i'm aweer both participate in the project and Drake is know to be a Nation loyalist ?

Valkarth Tlakotani
Posted - 2011.08.15 03:16:00 - [16]
 

Fascinating.
First the jove give the people of EvE the capsuleer. Then Sansha in concert with major corporations and empires develops his tech. Finally he is understood and attacked, but too late. Now he's back, depending on the same fractious groupings to ensure his victory. Or is he really a Jove test?
There is no way to stay out of politics my dear scientists.
-\/


 

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