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Predator Elite
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:35:00 - [61]
 

Ender if you would like a fc's point of view on this topic please send me a eve mail, and Ill be there.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.22 22:15:00 - [62]
 

Predator Elite would definitely be an excellent pick for an amarr fc perspective.

Name Family Name
Posted - 2011.08.22 22:24:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Originally by: Name Family Name
.. A mix of one (ex?)plexer, CEOs and FCs would be best, imho.

You lost me am afraid. You seriously suggesting that anyone with a passion for FW (ie. the ones who will listen to the recording) would rather be entertained than hear constructive/lively discussion of the topic?


I'm afraid it would end up too focused on plexing. I don't live in wormholes and don't intend to in the near future - yet I listened to the WH podcasts and liked the different angles the podcast portrayed, because it was interesting for a broader audience (like me).
Whilst occupancy and plexing are the most broken mechanics in FW, you'll have to admit these facts are so widely known, players still doing them are a very small minority, so having people doing different things in FW (hell - even LP-*****s) would provide for a more interesting discussion than having 4 guys talking about a broken mechanic they still engage in.

From my perspective, a discussion about rat imbalance, speed tanking, dramiels, friendly militia plexing, cloaked plexing, plex spawns etc... would be rather uninteresting.
During my time, I would probably have dealt with all that if plexing had given my militia any tactical advantage. It doesn't and therefore, any further discussion on the underlying mechanics is somewhat moot at this stage.

At least CCP should make militia stations flip with occupancy and implement according docking rights - unless the utter irrelevance of occupancy is fixed, any further discussion would be like talking about fixing a wobbly door knob in cabin 1538 on the wreck of the titanic.


Quote:

Whoa! What? All the RP'ers (on all the sides) are leading by example, none have ever claimed anything of the sort.
That people choose to heed our calls and advice can hardly be interpreted as us claiming to represent anything other than know-how.


Now that you say it, I must apologize - I have never read a statement claiming this, yet they are hardly representative of the FW playerbase.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.23 08:22:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Name Family Name
...I'm afraid it would end up too focused on plexing...

On the plexing part most of the die-hards are pretty much agreed on what is wrong and what could/should be done so it's a five minute debate at best.
The biggest time-sink will be the question: "effect of occupancy", everyone and their dog have an opinion on this and they range from null like sovereignty to mission LP increases ..
If you have surplus sanity, read the frequent FW threads which all end up arguing about what MeMeMEMEME should get out of occupancy/plexing/Pew.
Originally by: Name Family Name
Now that you say it, I must apologize - I have never read a statement claiming this, yet they are hardly representative of the FW playerbase.

I'd say the opposite (SURPRISE! Very Happy) as RP'ers make it a point to dabble in all areas available .. kind of necessary if one wants to make informed posts on IGS that are not shot down by the first guy with half a brain.
Either way, if an RP'er is invited the main concern of that person should be the RP part of FW and not much else .. anyone may have knowledge of all other aspects but no one but us have knowledge of (read: interest in) the RP aspect .. that's how I see it anyway.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:18:00 - [65]
 

Name Family Name,

I do agree with pretty much everything you said. They shouldn't really try to cover the issues with plexing and how FW currently works in the same podcast.

However, I think that occupancy plexing should really be the back bone of FW. Otherwise its just a large war dec and a new form of missions.

I and many others believe that fixing FW plexing could provide something that eve sorely lacks. A whole new method of warfare that focuses on small gang pvp.

I enter plexes almost every time I pvp. I just move away from the rats so they don't kill my tank and wait for other players to come in. Some of the best fights I ever had were in or right outside often both.

I think people discuss occupancy plexing so much because its easy to see how great it could be for eve. It definitely deserves its own podcast where the pros and cons can be considered for the players.

Hirana Yoshida,
There are considerable disagreements in how the plexing mechanic should change. Some want npcs to play a larger role (e.g. be tougher and require plexers to blow them all up) and others want plexing to involve less pve (no npcs at all and let militias know when a plex is entered so they can defend them player versus player.) Should the war front be spread out or more narrow? (If they are spread out you may be able to do them solo. Some want this. Others donít. If they are close it may lead to blobs. Some want this. Some donít.)

If you look at the list of proposals you will find only a few that everyone agrees on. E.g., everyone agrees plexes shouldnít mainly spawn at noon in London, and that if there are going to be npcs they should attack the enemy. But these changes alone wonít really make plexing worthwhile.

Princess Nexxala
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:55:00 - [66]
 

Damar you are a delusional exploiting troll. No QCAT has ever threatened you in IRL. It's a game friend, lighten up and try having fun.

And for you to label anyone an exploiter is ironic and quite silly. Grow up, exploit less and maybe you won't be so bitter.



Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 16/08/2011 06:29:17
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores

Originally by: Ammon Dei
Lets all be reasonable...
Say the persons who on their part are responsible for "Nennamaila incident" and approving their corp members irl threats against Caldari militia members.

Talk about putting a fox to guard the hen house. Why would anyone trust you to fix FW?

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:02:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Princess Nexxala
Damar you are a delusional exploiting troll. No QCAT has ever threatened you in IRL. It's a game friend, lighten up and try having fun.


Nennamaila incident = Qcats. Approving irl threats = Eleutherian Guard (= Seriphyn Inhonores)

Any other clarifications needed?

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:21:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Princess Nexxala
Damar you are a delusional exploiting troll. No QCAT has ever threatened you in IRL. It's a game friend, lighten up and try having fun.

And for you to label anyone an exploiter is ironic and quite silly. Grow up, exploit less and maybe you won't be so bitter.


CCP is actively looking and monitoring people when it comes to exploit. If Damar was exploiting a game mechanic, CCP would know and he would be banned. CCP is very clear on this subject. From my understanding, he and all others are just using the game mechanics to their advantage. I could take the neutral repping in high-sec for example. Some say its exploiting but it is not. It only ****es lots of people off just like this one here.

So please, stop your accusation unless you got hard evidence if someone (ie: Damar) is using exploit and just report the damn thing to CCP FFS. This stupid exploit discusion as been going on for years and still is today...this is childish.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:43:00 - [69]
 

If it's not wiki'd, it didn't happen, IMO. I can't find the "Nennamaila Incident" on Eve Wiki. Case closed.

Pulgy
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:04:00 - [70]
 

Can't we just ignore Damar and his (successful) attempt to derail a decent FW discussion?
Don't feed the troll :P

END OF RINE

Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.24 00:09:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Princess Nexxala
Damar you are a delusional exploiting troll. No QCAT has ever threatened you in IRL. It's a game friend, lighten up and try having fun.

And for you to label anyone an exploiter is ironic and quite silly. Grow up, exploit less and maybe you won't be so bitter.


CCP is actively looking and monitoring people when it comes to exploit. If Damar was exploiting a game mechanic, CCP would know and he would be banned. CCP is very clear on this subject. From my understanding, he and all others are just using the game mechanics to their advantage. I could take the neutral repping in high-sec for example. Some say its exploiting but it is not. It only ****es lots of people off just like this one here.

So please, stop your accusation unless you got hard evidence if someone (ie: Damar) is using exploit and just report the damn thing to CCP FFS. This stupid exploit discusion as been going on for years and still is today...this is childish.


Damar is about as hipocritical (and unstable) as they come...

Couple of past Damar comments:

"Also, we use alts simply because expendable and untrained alts bring us billions of isk. There is a method to this "madness" and it's well thought out."

Damar Rocarion > I dont care about isk making exploits and such
Damar Rocarion > But I cross the line in pvp exploits


Damar exploits by his own admissions, yet he's the first to cry the sky is falling when something doesn't go his way...

Ender Black
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.24 00:55:00 - [72]
 

Oh dear good what have I signed up for? To those interested in participating I'll be sending EVEmails soon. We still have about a month before the recording and if this thread is any indication it should be a lively discussion.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:26:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Ender Black
Oh dear good what have I signed up for?


If you filter out Damar and a few ex pervs, you've actually got yourself a pretty good discussion. Most of the active cal/gal pvpers are pretty friendly (at least they were when I was playing 2 months ago).

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:27:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 24/08/2011 04:28:06
Originally by: Cromwell Savage
"Also, we use alts simply because expendable and untrained alts bring us billions of isk. There is a method to this "madness" and it's well thought out."

Damar Rocarion > I dont care about isk making exploits and such
Damar Rocarion > But I cross the line in pvp exploits

Damar exploits by his own admissions, yet he's the first to cry the sky is falling when something doesn't go his way...


Where I admit it? I say two things there.

A) PERVS used expendable alts in tier 1 frigates to defend systems and recycled them for COSMOS goodies (before FW mission boost made the isk gained from this non-competive). Not an exploit and standard tactic these days among plexers and main reason fights over plexes now happen only once in a blue moon. (Val has two alts plus at least one more on his main account, Minmatar militia has ton of Vigil flying alts, etc.)

B) That I dont mind people using exploits to make isk. More power to them if they dont get caught since ISK is plenty easy to come by with legit means too.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:44:00 - [75]
 

Sounds like you girls are a bit confused as to what an exploit is.
There are no exploits, because there are no bugs to exploit .. CCP has said as much in the <insert stupidly high figure> petitions.

FW is working as intended. <-- That is what you should be moaning about.

The complaint for me is that CCP sold us a product of such inferior quality that it contains flaws and loopholes so grievous that some people (myself included) consider using them exploitive even though they merely represent "standard" mechanics.

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:58:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Sounds like you girls are a bit confused as to what an exploit is.
There are no exploits, because there are no bugs to exploit .. CCP has said as much in the <insert stupidly high figure> petitions.

FW is working as intended. <-- That is what you should be moaning about.

The complaint for me is that CCP sold us a product of such inferior quality that it contains flaws and loopholes so grievous that some people (myself included) consider using them exploitive even though they merely represent "standard" mechanics.


^^ That
Exploits are monitored by CCP. If Damar was exploiting something in the game CCP would know by now. This guy is so visible that the entire CCP Office knows about him lol. Exploits don't last forever and long in Eve-online by the way. CCP knows how to detect them in case you guys don't know.

personally I don't believe Damar is exploiting anything...simply because he's still here and playing.

so...

Ender Black, lots of people will say bad things about Damar but as you noticed yourself without no hard evidence. it's all he said she said kind of supposedly proof. So my point in this is when someone says something not related to your initial discussion, just use the report button and ignore it afterwards. The mods in this forum will just erase what they said.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:02:00 - [77]
 

Thread has devolved into plexing mechanic discussion - again - even though the most people who have participated in FW from the beginning hardly ever plexed.

Keep those guys in this thread who walked down that path off the discussion panel! (including me :D )

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:13:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Thread has devolved into plexing mechanic discussion - again - even though the most people who have participated in FW from the beginning hardly ever plexed.

Keep those guys in this thread who walked down that path off the discussion panel! (including me :D )


While I agree FW is 2 worlds(at least). There are those who just accept a large wardec and there are those who actually try (tried) to engage the actual fw mechanics. The way this conversation went proves that many (including myself) view occupancy plexing as important, if not the foundation of fw.

And Hirana's post demonstrates it is horribly in need of fixing. When Players themselves are policing game mechanics that are so stupid everyone except ccp thinks they are exploitive (if not technically exploits) the game designers should get a clue.

But even before these new ways of exploiting occupancy plexing were used systematically, occuppancy plexing still had problems. Mainly it had very little to do with the players warring against players. It was always mainly players warring against npcs/red crosses.

This is why I think 2 podcasts would be best. 1 would give the basics, and how fw can be an enjoyable part of the game as is. The second would be a disscussion of how the foundational mechanic of occupancy plexing can be fixed.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:39:00 - [79]
 

ender, in case you haven't noticed, there are a few people in FW that are very very active on the forums.

My advice to you is to go down the respective areas of FW space in a small ship and ask around. There are a lot of people on here that have not been mentioned really, though some of the people that have been mentioned are a valuable source. Ask around and check out various corps diplo's

Nitro DSP
Minmatar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:20:00 - [80]
 

It is true that FW is PvP, plexes, and missions (with PvP being the most important aspect IMO) but if plexes are so important, why not make them worth something (like isk or direct LP gain) to display the importance?



Mara Abraham
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:06:00 - [81]
 

Good day, Nitro DSP:

HUGS, and hopefully welcome back.

Thank you.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:21:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 25/08/2011 18:22:16
Originally by: Nitro DSP
It is true that FW is PvP, plexes, and missions (with PvP being the most important aspect IMO) but if plexes are so important, why not make them worth something (like isk or direct LP gain) to display the importance?





I think that is a great question. Adding to the reward of doing plexes is something that has been proposed and is definitely worth discussing. But I think there is much more to it.

I think ccp didn't make them worth that much at first because they viewed plexing as sort of the meta goal - it was an end in itself. Most players seemed to agree - at first. You join fw in order to gain territory for your faction.

So you get isk so you can fight. You fight in order to get territory for your faction. You get territory for your faction because that was intended as one of many ultimate goals in this sandbox. If you win all the territory for your faction that was a worthy accomplishment!

Why did this goal fail to motivate people? Well it did motivate people at first. Even though there was no reward to getting the occupancy (it was an end in itself).

I would argue that people stopped not so much because they didn't get enough isk from the activity but instead because the activity itself was viewed as having little merit.

People saw that this occupancy plexing was optimally done by doing pve and avoiding fights. Ank would post about how she did like 100 plexes without a single pvp kill!

Well people in new eden do not value good pve skills. Hence gaining territory was no longer was viewed as an accomplishment to be proud of. That is why we have a pvp alliance tournament instead of one to see who can speed tank the most red crosses.

I would say that people would still participate in the alliance tournament even if ccp did not pay out large prizes. (assuming the cost of entry was also removed - but not the cost of ships lost.) Why? Because winning the alliance tournament is seen as a worthy accomplishment.

Now I am fairly sure that CCP can make occupancy plexing into something that people feel has merit. How? Make it involve allot of small scale pvp that is rich in tactics and dependent on the skill and intelligence of the pilots involved.

If they do this I am sure people will start to do it again. And people will find another worthy goal to achieve in this sandbox.

Kirsten Arsten
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:28:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 17/08/2011 04:07:16
Originally by: Vim
supercaps and might make empires nervous if used in actual combat that close to their turf. regular dreads/carriers is much less of a problem since they are perceived as actually fightable, without dialing 1-1-2-R-A-I-D-E-N and setting things up for a specific time and date.


Whines a person from an FDU corp which has their own titan bridge and neutral carriers/logistics to help gallente fleets? Priceless.

I quess we know now whose Nyx it was that got destroyed in Harroule...



So damar. how are your raiden friends doing?

pro pvp right here http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10381107

Large Collidable Object
morons.
Posted - 2011.08.26 02:37:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Kirsten Arsten



So damar. how are your raiden friends doing?

pro pvp right here http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10381107



Wow - the amount of fail it takes to get locked by a bunch of caps and Scaps whilst sitting in a stealthbomber is mind-blowing.
Actually, getting that many of them on that killmail really is pro, regardless of the pilot obviously being a moron extraordinaire...

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.08.26 04:42:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Wow - the amount of fail it takes to get locked by a bunch of caps and Scaps whilst sitting in a stealthbomber is mind-blowing.
Actually, getting that many of them on that killmail really is pro, regardless of the pilot obviously being a moron extraordinaire...


That's what I was thinking. Besides, that kind of blobbing against lone targets is what gallente militia mainly does so they are naturally ****ed off when they are subjected to it.

BuzzyBeagle
Posted - 2011.08.26 12:55:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 16/08/2011 06:29:17
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores

Originally by: Ammon Dei
Lets all be reasonable...
Say the persons who on their part are responsible for "Nennamaila incident" and approving their corp members irl threats against Caldari militia members.

Talk about putting a fox to guard the hen house. Why would anyone trust you to fix FW?


IRL threats to Caldari?
what/when/who?
details!

DNLeviathan
Caldari
Hole Plunderer's
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:43:00 - [87]
 

i found myself a new primary. someone get point. bump him away from the gate.


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