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blankseplocked Nullsec AFKloakers are a CCP design goal fail - needs discussion!
 
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:19:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
This is part of my point. The cloaker should get uncloaked after a certain amount of time (with the ability to recloak manually after time has expired if they so wish) is my addition to balance this issue.

This effectivelly promote been active and dynamic gaming for players and getting rid off unbalance perma cloak.


So how do you propose to balance the unfair intel advantage local gives when not even a cloaked vessel can hide in a system without everyone knowing he's there?

It's works beautifully in wormholes... you don't know he's there until you see the red appear on the overview or see the fleet warping to you on DScan that he led to you. You just need to be alert and ready.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:30:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:31:06
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Andrea Roche
This is part of my point. The cloaker should get uncloaked after a certain amount of time (with the ability to recloak manually after time has expired if they so wish) is my addition to balance this issue.

This effectivelly promote been active and dynamic gaming for players and getting rid off unbalance perma cloak.


So how do you propose to balance the unfair intel advantage local gives when not even a cloaked vessel can hide in a system without everyone knowing he's there?

It's works beautifully in wormholes... you don't know he's there until you see the red appear on the overview or see the fleet warping to you on DScan that he led to you. You just need to be alert and ready.


You can still recloak. Cloaking is not removed. You can recloak. Everybody knows you are in system anyways now its not like they dont know. You are still pritty safe as long as you recloak.

You cannot compare wh with 0.0 imo. You make much more in wh than in 0.0 Also its far more difficualt to scan a wh and the chances if you been caught are also smaller. After alll its not like a gate where you get traffic X amiunt of people every hour.

Also in a system you can warp directly into a belt or anomoly with minimum effort. In wh you need prob scanners and its takes a while to narrow it down. This also buys time for spotting for the oposition.

I lived for a year in wh and i never got jumped cos i always potted the scan probes on time. So i know what i am talking about. To remove local in 0.0 its with the current mechanics its gonna be a disaster. If you are gonna remove local then you may as well remove cloak fully to brake it even futher



Romana Erebus
Caldari
Specter Syndicate
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:42:00 - [243]
 

Reaaly? Crying about cloaking devices. WTH? You sir are a massengil user. Its part of the game. No need to change it. If someone afk cloak terrorizes you you might want to go play W.O.W. or. Something. I don't care if you afk all day cloacks more power to you. If I get blown up because I didn't pay attention sucks to be me

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:49:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche

You can still recloak. Cloaking is not removed. You can recloak. Everybody knows you are in system anyways now its not like they dont know. You are still pritty safe as long as you recloak.



Way to miss the point. The idea of cloaking is to not be seen. Local gives too much intel in the sense that if you're in a system cloaked you're seen regardless. They know you're there, and they shouldn't.

Ideally, if you're cloaked you should disappear from local as though you left the system. After all, the cloak is masking all your other signatures, making you invisible, it should also mask your transponder so local can't find you. You could add to that a little... if you chat you send a signal that makes you reappear on local for a brief period of time.

That's how local and cloaking should work. If you're cloaked, you're "not there". You shouldn't konw if that neutral person that entered the system then disappeared left or cloaked.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:56:00 - [245]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:58:24
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:57:37
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Andrea Roche

You can still recloak. Cloaking is not removed. You can recloak. Everybody knows you are in system anyways now its not like they dont know. You are still pritty safe as long as you recloak.



Way to miss the point. The idea of cloaking is to not be seen. Local gives too much intel in the sense that if you're in a system cloaked you're seen regardless. They know you're there, and they shouldn't.

Ideally, if you're cloaked you should disappear from local as though you left the system. After all, the cloak is masking all your other signatures, making you invisible, it should also mask your transponder so local can't find you. You could add to that a little... if you chat you send a signal that makes you reappear on local for a brief period of time.

That's how local and cloaking should work. If you're cloaked, you're "not there". You shouldn't konw if that neutral person that entered the system then disappeared left or cloaked.


so let me get this straight. You idea to fix afk cloak (overpowered) & local, is to litterally disapar the charactr from local making it even harder to spot. Now you r unscanable with ur change, u r perma unscanable and also invisible in local.

How is this gonna help afk cloaking? You removed yourself from local, it maybe a good idea. Now what about scaning and detection? Or r u gonna perma cloak there forever still without not been punished somehow? My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:05:00 - [246]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 22/08/2011 13:06:02
Originally by: Andrea Roche
so let me get this straight. You idea to fix afk cloak (overpowered) & local, is to litterally disapar the charactr from local making it even harder to spot. Now you r unscanable with ur change, u r perma unscanable and also invisible in local.

How is this gonna help afk cloaking? You removed yourself from local, it maybe a good idea. Now what about scaning and detection? Or r u gonna perma cloak there forever still without not been punished somehow? My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.



Yes, that's exactly it. The only reason "afk cloaking" is seen as a problem is because "afk cloakers" are seen. They only reason them being seen is a problem is because people are too coddled and lazy in null to assume they're going to be attacked and prepare for it. They want the intel (and rat bounties) delivered to them with a pretty pink bow and pony wrapping paper. If you remove the cloaked vessel from local, now you have a real cloaking device working as it should... when cloaked, they're not there. A covops ship should be able to pass through a system unseen, such as they can do in wormholes. People will adapt in null. The ones with balls will continue to profit and make more as they fill in the void left by the weak ones who leave.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:11:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 13:11:49
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 22/08/2011 13:06:02
Originally by: Andrea Roche
so let me get this straight. You idea to fix afk cloak (overpowered) & local, is to litterally disapar the charactr from local making it even harder to spot. Now you r unscanable with ur change, u r perma unscanable and also invisible in local.

How is this gonna help afk cloaking? You removed yourself from local, it maybe a good idea. Now what about scaning and detection? Or r u gonna perma cloak there forever still without not been punished somehow? My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.



Yes, that's exactly it. The only reason "afk cloaking" is seen as a problem is because "afk cloakers" are seen. They only reason them being seen is a problem is because people are too coddled and lazy in null to assume they're going to be attacked and prepare for it. They want the intel (and rat bounties) delivered to them with a pretty pink bow and pony wrapping paper. If you remove the cloaked vessel from local, now you have a real cloaking device working as it should... when cloaked, they're not there. A covops ship should be able to pass through a system unseen, such as they can do in wormholes. People will adapt in null. The ones with balls will continue to profit and make more as they fill in the void left by the weak ones who leave.


I may agree partially but - R u still gonna be able to cloak forever without been uncloked for x seconds? or r we still permacloaking.
But still, with this changes and added bonuses to cover/recon to scan and cyno i guranteed its gonna make 0.0 space at least 60% more dangerous than before. With perma cloak its gonna go over the roof XD

bolianavitchfantuleanpie
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:15:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: bolianavitchfantuleanpie on 22/08/2011 13:15:50
im not gona read what everyone said because theirs 9 pages of this crap. but here is my opinion. if you get an a-hole that just cloaks in your system and goes afk than becomes active at a random time of day/night, than go to another system? stop complaining. this is part of the game.
also, maybe its a sighn to get out and enjoy life in the sun a little?

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:19:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 13:19:25
Originally by: bolianavitchfantuleanpie
Edited by: bolianavitchfantuleanpie on 22/08/2011 13:15:50
im not gona read what everyone said because theirs 9 pages of this crap.


epic battle that may involve some trolls tooLaughing

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:19:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.


eve is full of afk jobs (think of skill training for instance), afk cloak is just one of them. Get used to that.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:22:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Andrea Roche
My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.


eve is full of afk jobs (think of skill training for instance), afk cloak is just one of them. Get used to that.

example>>
i could also say that super caps can be killed and dont need a nerf. Just bring 3/5 carriers with neuts. But i will be ignoring the problem or message...

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:34:00 - [252]
 

If they ever do make changes to cloaking like some of the suggestions I've seen, I hope they keep it in null sec only. That would pretty much ruin the fun for wh space.

And just fyi, you don't need probes to scan down wh anoms. The onboard scanner gets those just fine.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:38:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 13:40:02
Originally by: Bane Nucleus
If they ever do make changes to cloaking like some of the suggestions I've seen, I hope they keep it in null sec only. That would pretty much ruin the fun for wh space.

And just fyi, you don't need probes to scan down wh anoms. The onboard scanner gets those just fine.


on wh 1-3/4 i believe you dont. Above that you do i think. I am actually not sure cos i am getting confused with something...
ps: you cant just want to make such drastical change of so much danger level without some kind of balance. i would hate to say how bad that would be...i think people may go and move to a wh since they make more and less hassle and they still get the pvp element.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:40:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 13:40:33
Originally by: Andrea Roche

i could also say that super caps can be killed and dont need a nerf. Just bring 3/5 carriers with neuts. But i will be ignoring the problem or message...


this is that much offtopic, I dont even know what to reply on this one.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 13:46:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 13:46:07
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 13:40:33
Originally by: Andrea Roche

i could also say that super caps can be killed and dont need a nerf. Just bring 3/5 carriers with neuts. But i will be ignoring the problem or message...


this is that much offtopic, I dont even know what to reply on this one.


yes i can see also the relevance and how closelly related are the topics "afk cloak" and "afk jobs"!!!

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:08:00 - [256]
 

This topic is so fun. So many people that don't understand at all what a local is.

Local is a system-wide SCANNER, it shows all online players in given system, also allows to chat among them. It helps the ones that look for a fight as well as the ones that try to avoid a fight.

Next day you remove this scanner, most carebears leave the game, the ones that stay gonna hide. Players gonna abandon anomalies, cause they require lot of effort to maintain index and are indication that you can find carebears there. Logistics in 0.0 becomes a nightmare and prices skyrocket. Bots prosper, cause they don't need local to see who is in system, they read info from game client. You go on roaming and make 50 jumps without seeing any active ships, you may occasionally see wrecks, but there is no way to say, if it's a bot in system or is it a carebear, who noticed you coming.

So again, local is a scanner that helps to find targets as well as to avoid fights. If local as a scanner is an obstacle for you to find targets, then you must be doing something wrong. Most probably you fail at PVP and don't go to places where local actually helps to find targets, cause those targets bite back and are better organized.

Fail pvpers tears are much more enjoyable than carebear tears.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:16:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Originally by: Mag's
I would class ratting in a PvP fit ship, as a decent-reward solo activity. But do you, or do you think only a pure PvE fit ship would suffice?


Depends on the region, blood raiders are brutal to the cap and need a dedicated pve fit but apart from that, yes a pvp fitted hac would be a decent reward solo activity. No how does the hac defend himself, solo, against 10 bombers, a lach and a falcon? Most cloakers have Covert Cyno I on their ships, they dont dare to attack solo.
So we agree it would be a decent reward solo activity.

Are blobs good? Well yes and no, it really depends on what side you are on. But I and many others deal with them when they happen, they are not only a part of this situation

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:19:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: zljuka
This topic is so fun. So many people that don't understand at all what a local is.

Local is a system-wide SCANNER, it shows all online players in given system, also allows to chat among them. It helps the ones that look for a fight as well as the ones that try to avoid a fight.

Next day you remove this scanner, most carebears leave the game, the ones that stay gonna hide. Players gonna abandon anomalies, cause they require lot of effort to maintain index and are indication that you can find carebears there. Logistics in 0.0 becomes a nightmare and prices skyrocket. Bots prosper, cause they don't need local to see who is in system, they read info from game client. You go on roaming and make 50 jumps without seeing any active ships, you may occasionally see wrecks, but there is no way to say, if it's a bot in system or is it a carebear, who noticed you coming.

So again, local is a scanner that helps to find targets as well as to avoid fights. If local as a scanner is an obstacle for you to find targets, then you must be doing something wrong. Most probably you fail at PVP and don't go to places where local actually helps to find targets, cause those targets bite back and are better organized.

Fail pvpers tears are much more enjoyable than carebear tears.


hmmm nostradamus probably is right with the future without local.


Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:25:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: zljuka
This topic is so fun. So many people that don't understand at all what a local is.
We know exactly what it is. We also know it is the reason for AFK cloaking.

Knowing what something is and knowing what impact it has, are separate lines of thought. Much like I know what a Tiger is and also know the impact it would have, if let loose in a classroom full of kids.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:27:00 - [260]
 

I think local in it's current form needs to go.

It's immediate, it can't fail (well, unless you're actually not looking at it i guess)

That's not what EVE's about, generally.

The problem is, what do you replace it with? A scanner activated by hand? but then what about cloakers?

Maybe a (contraband in empire) module which has a chance to delete you from local (for x seconds maybe)

It should reward active players, while giving PvPers and gankers a fair chance (not a sure-fire way) to get ganks/kills.

It's a very hard balance, which is not only very easy to upset, but maybe even harder to explain to both sides of the pie... Carebears want more safety, and no nasty cloakers, while PvPers want to sneak up on carebears and destroy them.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 14:37:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
I think local in it's current form needs to go.

It's immediate, it can't fail (well, unless you're actually not looking at it i guess)

That's not what EVE's about, generally.

The problem is, what do you replace it with? A scanner activated by hand? but then what about cloakers?

Maybe a (contraband in empire) module which has a chance to delete you from local (for x seconds maybe)

It should reward active players, while giving PvPers and gankers a fair chance (not a sure-fire way) to get ganks/kills.

It's a very hard balance, which is not only very easy to upset, but maybe even harder to explain to both sides of the pie... Carebears want more safety, and no nasty cloakers, while PvPers want to sneak up on carebears and destroy them.


I fully agree. Also to add, a disadvantage/op units/op item multiplies beyond the concept of use and its exploited where the issue lies. While 0.0 should remain cut throat, it should be for both not just one sided!

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:21:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Originally by: Mag's
I would class ratting in a PvP fit ship, as a decent-reward solo activity. But do you, or do you think only a pure PvE fit ship would suffice?


Depends on the region, blood raiders are brutal to the cap and need a dedicated pve fit but apart from that, yes a pvp fitted hac would be a decent reward solo activity. No how does the hac defend himself, solo, against 10 bombers, a lach and a falcon? Most cloakers have Covert Cyno I on their ships, they dont dare to attack solo.
So we agree it would be a decent reward solo activity.

Are blobs good? Well yes and no, it really depends on what side you are on. But I and many others deal with them when they happen, they are not only a part of this situation


"Yeah, blobbing sux but it happens so I'll just throw away this 150m isk HAC". Does that sound like a plausible train of thought to you? No, and thus the issue remain; a cloaker in local removes the possibility to solo rat in the system. Ergo, a single cloaker who may or may not be afk and may or may not have a Covert Cyno fitted removes the possibility of a "decent reward solo activity".

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:27:00 - [263]
 

If they are AFK and cloacked - They are no threat to you - solved
If they kill you after they decloak - They are no longer AFK - U-boat tactics style - solved

If you cannot shoot down cloaky ship after they decloak - you fault - cloaky ships are most vurnerable ships once they are decloacked.


Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:35:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: TharOkha
If they are AFK and cloacked - They are no threat to you - solved
If they kill you after they decloak - They are no longer AFK - U-boat tactics style - solved

If you cannot shoot down cloaky ship after they decloak - you fault - cloaky ships are most vurnerable ships once they are decloacked.




Go back to page 8 and read my posts.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:36:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Originally by: Mag's
So we agree it would be a decent reward solo activity.

Are blobs good? Well yes and no, it really depends on what side you are on. But I and many others deal with them when they happen, they are not only a part of this situation


"Yeah, blobbing sux but it happens so I'll just throw away this 150m isk HAC". Does that sound like a plausible train of thought to you? No, and thus the issue remain; a cloaker in local removes the possibility to solo rat in the system. Ergo, a single cloaker who may or may not be afk and may or may not have a Covert Cyno fitted removes the possibility of a "decent reward solo activity".
Just as plausible, as upping the ante to fit your line of thought. They also might not have a cyno jammer in the system, they could hot drop his ass with multiple Supers.

I can move the goal posts the same as yourself, but it's a lesson in futility and accomplishes nothing. Neither does it remove the solo possibilities of PvE, it just makes them harder.

Neurotica
Abh Empire
Posted - 2011.08.22 15:38:00 - [266]
 

make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:34:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 16:34:49
Originally by: Neurotica
make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly.

here again. WHY?
Afk cloaking hasnt been concluded or proved as wrong until yet, some people complain about being unsafe in 0.0 space due to cloakers but thats all, by far not enough to change anything.
There is a lack of reasoning and nothing really to fix yet.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:45:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 16:34:49
Originally by: Neurotica
make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly.

here again. WHY?
Afk cloaking hasnt been concluded or proved as wrong until yet, some people complain about being unsafe in 0.0 space due to cloakers but thats all, by far not enough to change anything.
There is a lack of reasoning and nothing really to fix yet.

QFT.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:51:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 16:34:49
Originally by: Neurotica
make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly.

here again. WHY?
Afk cloaking hasnt been concluded or proved as wrong until yet, some people complain about being unsafe in 0.0 space due to cloakers but thats all, by far not enough to change anything.
There is a lack of reasoning and nothing really to fix yet.


Maybe cause it was much harder two years ago to have 24/7 afk cloaker alt??? We have 10 active members in my corporation, and three 24/7 cloaker alts, year ago we had only one.

Population of afk cloakers grows much faster than that of carebears.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 17:07:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 16:34:49
Originally by: Neurotica
make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly.

here again. WHY?
Afk cloaking hasnt been concluded or proved as wrong until yet, some people complain about being unsafe in 0.0 space due to cloakers but thats all, by far not enough to change anything.
There is a lack of reasoning and nothing really to fix yet.


Maybe cause it was much harder two years ago to have 24/7 afk cloaker alt??? We have 10 active members in my corporation, and three 24/7 cloaker alts, year ago we had only one.

Population of afk cloakers grows much faster than that of carebears.
How does this make it harder, to have a 23.5/7 cloaky alt two years ago?


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