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Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:20:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 17:50:37
Originally by: Bane Nucleus
It doesn't make the system useless at all. Your decision to not risk it makes the system useless for you.
Yes I suppose I could keep a standing fleet ready literally 23 hours a day to kill a 40 million isk ship that may or may not have anyone at the keyboard that day, that seems like a legit and balanced engagement mechanic.


Yeah, doing something insane, like, I don't know, ratting in the system next door perhaps... that's out of the question. Way too cutting edge and extreme.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:20:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/08/2011 18:22:15
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 17:50:37
Yes I suppose I could keep a standing fleet ready literally 23 hours a day to kill a 40 million isk ship that may or may not have anyone at the keyboard that day


yes

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
that seems like a legit and balanced engagement mechanic.

yes

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Having to recloak every hour or so still allows you to hot drop or kill someone whenever the cloaker chooses.

here again, fixing a "problem" which hasnt been even proven as such.
Having to re-cloak gives too much information to the enemy about when the cloaker is active, doesnt work that way, they would simply hide till he drops cloak due tu inactivity, kill him and go ahead with ratting. 0.0 is not about being in full safety, even empire isnt.

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Yeah, doing something insane, like, I don't know, ratting in the system next door perhaps... that's out of the question. Way too cutting edge and extreme.

he's probably a renter, renting 1 system and got a cloaker in it, so ratting next door not allowed, which is the core problem of being a renter, not of the cloak being broken.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:26:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 17:50:37
Originally by: Bane Nucleus
It doesn't make the system useless at all. Your decision to not risk it makes the system useless for you.
Yes I suppose I could keep a standing fleet ready literally 23 hours a day to kill a 40 million isk ship that may or may not have anyone at the keyboard that day, that seems like a legit and balanced engagement mechanic.


Yeah, doing something insane, like, I don't know, ratting in the system next door perhaps... that's out of the question. Way too cutting edge and extreme.
So the options are "Give up space" or "23/7 hour standing fleet". You've certainly made an eloquent argument as to the current mechanic's balance, good sir.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:29:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 18:29:45
Originally by: Robert Caldera

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Yeah, doing something insane, like, I don't know, ratting in the system next door perhaps... that's out of the question. Way too cutting edge and extreme.

he's probably a renter, renting 1 system and got a cloaker in it, so ratting next door not allowed, which is the core problem of being a renter, not of the cloak being broken.
It's kind of obvious at this point neither of you have actually dealt with a merc contract in your EVE careers, so you can't see the obvious hole in this line of reasoning.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:35:00 - [215]
 

So the argument for AFK cloakers is basically:

Well, you can do a few things that might mitigate the risk a little, if you spend loads of hours researching that individual character first...... and even then it doesn't come near to entirely eliminating the risk.

Where the balance here practically no effort or risk for the afk cloaker, lots of effort and risk for the people trying to make money. Thats a complete imbalance that needs fixing.

Unless you can show that the afk cloaker can put in a similar level of risk (greater actually since the amount they stand to lose is greater, both in ship lost and potential income lost) and effort to disrupt the income then you aren't putting up an argument at all, all you are doing is trying to defend afk cloaking regardless of balance.

Worst of all, its the smaller alliances worst affected by this. The larger alliances have the space to move around or station counter hot-drop fleets should the enemy come in. If they want to screw over a smaller alliance, well one SB in each system from an alt, anyone foolish enough to rat gets a fleet of cap ships on their head.



Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:21:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 21/08/2011 19:23:28
There should be a risk to afk cloakers. There isnt. Its Risk Free!
The CCP new changes are suppose to help the smaller alliances rather than the large once. This has not happened. Infact its the oposite.

Cloaking without uncloaking for 23 hours without risk with "no effort" is not balanced.

The cloaker must put and "effort" to stay cloaked and should be allowed to recloak. If he doesnt put an efort after a period of time he should be at risk of engaged.

CCP talks about been Dynamic and encourage Active scouting/intel gathering. This is part of it.

One should not have a perma win/cloak button.

Its not hard to manually click recloak
Its not hard to manually click recloak
Its not hard to manually click recloak
Its not hard to manually click recloak
Its not hard to manually click recloak



Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:33:00 - [217]
 

There should be a risk to bots and ratters. There isnt. Its Risk Free!

With local and intel chanels, they dock up, pos up, safe, cloak and/or log well before any roamer gets close!

I really can't be bothered to fix your post. basically, deal with it, and post with your main.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 19:56:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
There should be a risk to bots and ratters. There isnt. Its Risk Free!

With local and intel chanels, they dock up, pos up, safe, cloak and/or log well before any roamer gets close!

I really can't be bothered to fix your post. basically, deal with it, and post with your main.


sure, awoxers are no threat at all

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 20:13:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: zljuka
"How do you know if a cloaker gonna attack" is a question to abstract. There is no way to find out if he gonna attack today/in next three days/at any given time. If you put attractive bait, he might be afk, or his friends are not around. Baiting him requires efforts of few people, while staying afk requires no effort, except for keeping eve client running.

How can you find out, if a cloaker represent some threat? I guess this is correct question? In two words answer is - killboard and baits. But still either way can prove at 100% a cloaker is no threat. Usually carebears find out via trial and errors, if a cloaker is dangerous.
You altered the actual question and then answered it.

OK I'll make it easy for you, as none of the pro nerf crowd seems to get it.

LOCAL.

That's the answer to both questions, local. That's how they affect you whilst AFK, that's the reason you know they may attack you, as you can see them in your system.
Cause and effect.

So let's boil down, what you are asking for.

Not only do you have the all seeing eye to let you know there is an enemy in your system, but you now want the ability to de-cloak him and hunt him. I and many others can plainly see, this is not a balanced approach. You want to nerf the effect, without addressing the cause.

For it to be a balanced approach, you need to discuss local as well as cloaking. But then it goes deeper than that, because WH space needs to be taken into account as far as cloaking is concerned.
Many that live in WH space, believe it's balanced right now, but I digress.

Like I said in another thread, local is being changed and we have yet to see what changes they are. Until we see the changes to local and intel gathering, all these discussions are kinda moot. Plus let's not forget, these ideas are far from new and have been discussed to death already.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:21:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 21:20:50
Originally by: Mag's
....


I would have never guess you mean local. Cause it would never come to my mind people from negative ten complain on locals. And cause I thought we have reasonable discussion here.

If we remove locals without any other changes, prices would go up like five times. If this is the point of a conversation, to make living in 0.0 space way harder and raise prices in eve x5 or maybe x10, than this is a wrong thread.

Most funny thing, if you remove locals, people would leave 0.0 and eve, and you'll keep crying about lack of targets.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:30:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: zljuka
If we remove locals without any other changes
…which isn't what people are saying when they say “remove local”. Of course there it would be replaced by other intel-gathering tools, but the automated, unfailing, and uncounterable tool that local represents will be gone — you'll have to work for your information.

But the important thing here is that the problem with “AFK cloaking” isn't AFK cloakers — it's local, because without local, AFK cloakers wouldn't exist.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 21:48:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 21:53:22
Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 21:49:03
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: zljuka
If we remove locals without any other changes
…which isn't what people are saying when they say “remove local”. Of course there it would be replaced by other intel-gathering tools, but the automated, unfailing, and uncounterable tool that local represents will be gone — you'll have to work for your information.

But the important thing here is that the problem with “AFK cloaking” isn't AFK cloakers — it's local, because without local, AFK cloakers wouldn't exist.


It doesn't matter, if you remove local, you have to invent other tool to gather intel. If this tool provides same level of security to carebears, the ones that complain now on locals would cry that nothing has changed.

If you reduce security level for carebears, proportion risk/reward goes down, some part of carebears leave a game, tougher ones stay, and pvpers won't end up with more targets to kill.

If you wanna change locals to be able to hunt carebears, it's a completely wrong approach.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:01:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: zljuka
If you wanna change locals to be able to hunt carebears, it's a completely wrong approach.
Good thing that that's not the reason then. Wink

Local needs to be changed because it is a game-wrecking intel tool that provides far too much information without any kind of counter. Or well, it does have one counter: AFK cloaking, but people seem to want to get rid of that, so local needs to be significantly altered or removed to accommodate this.

Moreover, as mentioned, without local, AFK cloakers wouldn't exist anyway, so that's the way to solve the problem that is the topic of this thread.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:26:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: zljuka
I would have never guess you mean local. Cause it would never come to my mind people from negative ten complain on locals. And cause I thought we have reasonable discussion here.
You would have never guessed local, because you were focusing on the effect, rather than the cause.

Well it was/is reasonable, but I have to ask.... What the hell, has me being neg ten got to do with it?

The rest of your post, was most aptly addressed by Tippia.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.08.21 22:56:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Baaldor on 21/08/2011 22:56:12
Originally by: Mag's
but I have to ask.... What the hell, has me being neg ten got to do with it?




Because you are a big bad bully, and you conflict with his view of how the game should be played.

Riveting Tale Sibling
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:41:00 - [226]
 

This topic is ******ed.

Yes, let's remove more risk from Null!

God forbid we actually have a use for Cov-Ops ships.

Smacktards.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:55:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 23:56:06
Originally by: Mag's

Well it was/is reasonable, but I have to ask.... What the hell, has me being neg ten got to do with it?


Cause I wouldn't suggest Negative ten have troubles to find targets in eve, so they need to remove local to simplify the process.

Right now local tells to some people "cautious, danger!!!", to other people it tells "possible targets here". Neg ten rather second type.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 00:52:00 - [228]
 

I understand that there is some relevance people but theres is a separate thread fot "local". Instead focus on the topic >> Cloak

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.22 01:20:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
I understand that there is some relevance people but theres is a separate thread fot "local". Instead focus on the topic >> Cloak
No, the topic is “AFK” cloaking — a (supposed) problem that is directly caused by local.

So guess where the solution to said problem is best found…?

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 06:38:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Mag's
Well it was/is reasonable, but I have to ask.... What the hell, has me being neg ten got to do with it?
Cause I wouldn't suggest Negative ten have troubles to find targets in eve, so they need to remove local to simplify the process.

Right now local tells to some people "cautious, danger!!!", to other people it tells "possible targets here". Neg ten rather second type.
I thought we were talking about null sec here. After all the topic is Nullsec AFKloakers are a CCP design goal fail - needs discussion!

Low sec is being looked at after null sec, or so they say and if local changes in low sec then, so be it.


Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Mag's
but I have to ask.... What the hell, has me being neg ten got to do with it?

Because you are a big bad bully, and you conflict with his view of how the game should be played.
Well it looks like you were right bud, but he/she also didn't understand the topic at hand either.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:41:00 - [231]
 

Devblog

Quote:
Solo support
It is critical that some low-effort, decent-reward solo activities are available to players in nullsec. This class of content gives players a reason to stay online if nobody else is around, and it's only by getting people to stay logged on that it stops being the case that nobody else is around.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 09:46:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Devblog

Quote:
Solo support
It is critical that some low-effort, decent-reward solo activities are available to players in nullsec. This class of content gives players a reason to stay online if nobody else is around, and it's only by getting people to stay logged on that it stops being the case that nobody else is around.



how does this relate to the topic? I dont understand the last part at all.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:26:00 - [233]
 

The development plan for 0.0 includes a point that states that solo-pve should be available. With cloakers in local who may or may not be afk and who may or may not have a covert cyno I fitted, and you have no way of telling, your choices are rather limited (read: Empire mission alt).

And no, simply stating that attacking you is not an AFK activity is neither funny or relevant as you have no way of telling when he gets back from work/dinner/shagging boyfriend. If there was a ping on my d-scan when the cloaker sat down in front of his computer I would be with you.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:32:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera
The development plan for 0.0 includes a point that states that solo-pve should be available. With cloakers in local who may or may not be afk and who may or may not have a covert cyno I fitted, and you have no way of telling, your choices are rather limited (read: Empire mission alt).

And no, simply stating that attacking you is not an AFK activity is neither funny or relevant as you have no way of telling when he gets back from work/dinner/shagging boyfriend. If there was a ping on my d-scan when the cloaker sat down in front of his computer I would be with you.


mh, the plan of having solo pve activities doesnt mean at all you should be protected from any kind of pvp, that is a stretch way too far IMO.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:39:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
The development plan for 0.0 includes a point that states that solo-pve should be available. With cloakers in local who may or may not be afk and who may or may not have a covert cyno I fitted, and you have no way of telling, your choices are rather limited (read: Empire mission alt).

And no, simply stating that attacking you is not an AFK activity is neither funny or relevant as you have no way of telling when he gets back from work/dinner/shagging boyfriend. If there was a ping on my d-scan when the cloaker sat down in front of his computer I would be with you.


mh, the plan of having solo pve activities doesnt mean at all you should be protected from any kind of pvp, that is a stretch way too far IMO.


Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour.

To make one thing clear, I have empire mission alts so I'm not bitter. I make money just fine. I just think the whole consept of "afk cloakers" goes against the design of the game thats all.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.22 10:54:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera

Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour.

To make one thing clear, I have empire mission alts so I'm not bitter. I make money just fine. I just think the whole consept of "afk cloakers" goes against the design of the game thats all.


I just pointed out the relation between the quoted devblog and the afk cloaker discussion is a huge stretch.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 11:35:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Draahk Chimera

Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour.

To make one thing clear, I have empire mission alts so I'm not bitter. I make money just fine. I just think the whole consept of "afk cloakers" goes against the design of the game thats all.


I just pointed out the relation between the quoted devblog and the afk cloaker discussion is a huge stretch.


No you didn't. You said ratters safe from ALL pvp, and I pointed out that there are many types of pvp except "afk"-cloaking should it be nerfed. And I do see the correlation between the dev blog stating that there should be low effort solo pve and the ability to shut down all pve in a system with an "afk"-cloaker.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:09:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Devblog

Quote:
Solo support
It is critical that some low-effort, decent-reward solo activities are available to players in nullsec. This class of content gives players a reason to stay online if nobody else is around, and it's only by getting people to stay logged on that it stops being the case that nobody else is around.

I would class ratting in a PvP fit ship, as a decent-reward solo activity. But do you, or do you think only a pure PvE fit ship would suffice?

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:15:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:20:21
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:18:11
Edited by: Andrea Roche on 22/08/2011 12:17:36
Originally by: Draahk Chimera

Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour.


This is part of my point. The cloaker should get uncloaked after a certain amount of time (with the ability to recloak manually after time has expired if they so wish) is my addition to balance this issue.

This effectivelly rewards activity and encourages dynamic gaming for players and getting rid off unbalance perma cloak.

Reward activity and not inactivity

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.08.22 12:19:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
Devblog

Quote:
Solo support
It is critical that some low-effort, decent-reward solo activities are available to players in nullsec. This class of content gives players a reason to stay online if nobody else is around, and it's only by getting people to stay logged on that it stops being the case that nobody else is around.

I would class ratting in a PvP fit ship, as a decent-reward solo activity. But do you, or do you think only a pure PvE fit ship would suffice?


Depends on the region, blood raiders are brutal to the cap and need a dedicated pve fit but apart from that, yes a pvp fitted hac would be a decent reward solo activity. No how does the hac defend himself, solo, against 10 bombers, a lach and a falcon? Most cloakers have Covert Cyno I on their ships, they dont dare to attack solo.


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