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Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 12:10:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Andrea Roche

Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.



yes, but if you are afk, you cant press a button (unless using some kind of bot). Afking in space cloaked is a legit mechanic.


yes it is so was super caps yet they are getting a nerf. Why cos it was overpowered, so is perma cloak for the win.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 12:16:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 21/08/2011 12:16:52
Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are a troll. Instead of discussing the topic you are trying to go around the topic.
Is that your fall back position, calling someone a troll? I'm not going round the topic at all, I'm discussing the topic and trying to get you to answer a simple question.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say that there is a way to decloak someone when there is clearly no way when they are at a safe spot.
I said it's possible, but the odds against it are high.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say you can drive a cloaker away when clearly there isnt.
But there clearly is and examples of people doing this are on this forum. Here and here.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are playing with the word "AFK" when you clearly know what i mean.
No, I'm using it's meaning, Away From Keyboard. I want to start with the complaint of AFK, not with what happens after they return and become active.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say cloak bots have most to gain about but everybody knows that a cloak bot can make impressive kills even on ships that are not botting.
I never talked about cloaking bots, merely bots.
PvE bots in null sec making ISK 23.5/7, tends to be the general thought of bots in 0.0, but you mentioned bots, not I.

But you make an interesting point though. Are you saying that cloaking bots can kill active players in PvP? If this is the case, just how often does this happen?

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are also completelly dimissing those people that are involved in real battles with each other and cannot kill their opponent cos of perma cloak and who gets contantly cyno on top cos they play the afk until random time and then attack at some specific time. Not to mention all the bots that run on cloakies.
I'm dismissing it because it moves the goal posts from my original question. When we have addressed the first question, we can then move the discussion forward.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
So you are trying to excuse laziness or fear of recloaking manually with bots and only those bots that rat. Unacceptable. You are sacrificing the overral game over bot ratters. If u got bots in your list report them just like i do or kill them.
You mentioned bots, I responded to your post about them and now you are putting words into my mouth.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Which doesn't address the question I asked.

Do you find the new question harder to answer than the first? I'll change it a little to help you out.

While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you?

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.08.21 12:20:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Baaldor on 21/08/2011 12:20:00
Originally by: Andrea Roche
paranoia!


^^This.

We now have the reason why this thread and thread like it exist.




Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 12:21:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Edited by: Mag''s on 21/08/2011 12:16:52
Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are a troll. Instead of discussing the topic you are trying to go around the topic.
Is that your fall back position, calling someone a troll? I'm not going round the topic at all, I'm discussing the topic and trying to get you to answer a simple question.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say that there is a way to decloak someone when there is clearly no way when they are at a safe spot.
I said it's possible, but the odds against it are high.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say you can drive a cloaker away when clearly there isnt.
But there clearly is and examples of people doing this are on this forum. Here and here.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are playing with the word "AFK" when you clearly know what i mean.
No, I'm using it's meaning, Away From Keyboard. I want to start with the complaint of AFK, not with what happens after they return and become active.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You say cloak bots have most to gain about but everybody knows that a cloak bot can make impressive kills even on ships that are not botting.
I never talked about cloaking bots, merely bots.
PvE bots in null sec making ISK 23.5/7, tends to be the general thought of bots in 0.0, but you mentioned bots, not I.

But you make an interesting point though. Are you saying that cloaking bots can kill active players in PvP? If this is the case, just how often does this happen?

Originally by: Andrea Roche
You are also completelly dimissing those people that are involved in real battles with each other and cannot kill their opponent cos of perma cloak and who gets contantly cyno on top cos they play the afk until random time and then attack at some specific time. Not to mention all the bots that run on cloakies.
I'm dismissing it because it moves the goal posts from my original question. When we have addressed the first question, we can then move the discussion forward.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
So you are trying to excuse laziness or fear of recloaking manually with bots and only those bots that rat. Unacceptable. You are sacrificing the overral game over bot ratters. If u got bots in your list report them just like i do or kill them.
You mentioned bots, I responded to your post about them and now you are putting words into my mouth.

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Which doesn't address the question I asked.

Do you find the new question harder to answer than the first? I'll change it a little to help you out.

While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you?


I already told you. From now on i will igonre you cos clearly u r trolling or not reading..

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 12:26:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Originally by: Mag's
While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you?


I already told you. From now on i will igonre you cos clearly u r trolling or not reading..
No you didn't. Please read, comprehend, then answer.

If you can't answer it that's fine, but it does indicate how weak your argument is.

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:03:00 - [186]
 

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I thought Mag's posts were pretty easy and to the point.

The issue seems to be what these cloaky players do when they are active. Perhaps I missed something in Eve, but I thought only active players can light cynos and hotdrop you.

If you come across this, can you not move to another system?

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:21:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Bane Nucleus
Maybe I am in the minority here, but I thought Mag's posts were pretty easy and to the point.

The issue seems to be what these cloaky players do when they are active. Perhaps I missed something in Eve, but I thought only active players can light cynos and hotdrop you.

If you come across this, can you not move to another system?


the issue here is been perma cloaked and cannot be killed. You dont need a perma cloak.
CCP can put a change where a player after X amount of time ahs to recloak similar to how cyno works but longer time.
It allows the hunted to be a hunter too unlike now where the hunted cannot hunt the cloaker.
It gives small window of opportunity for the hunted to kill the hunter if he forgets to recloak.

About moving to another system its hard. What about if the same thing happens in the other systems you are allowed to rat?
Then you are screwed cos there is nothing you can do about it. Thats why its good to be have a system where the hunter/cloaker can be hunted. Right now the hunter chooses when to fight and litterally can sit there until he desires. While i approve of griefing, in this case this is too op. The hunted has always to react and cannot act.
People speak about using perma cloak with the excuse cos people bot. While some do, some dont. And this does not solve botting. Reporting it does!



Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:26:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Bane Nucleus
Wouldn't it be easier, and less impactful for the rest of Eve to just not allow cynos in anoms?


i dont think this is a good idea. Cos then you are limiting hot droping.
On the contrary you want to allow them but you also want to allow to give a window of opportunity to the hunted...
To manually recloak after a time has expired, is that window.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:37:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Bane Nucleus
Maybe I am in the minority here, but I thought Mag's posts were pretty easy and to the point.
You're not the minority and it was indeed easy and to the point.

But it seems being factual, answering the points given and wanting an answer to a simple question, makes you a troll. Oh well.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:40:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
If you can't deal with having a single neut hanging out in space in your system (who may or may not be cloaked), then if CCP actually fixes sovereignty in such a way to make NRDS a viable play style again you are never going to be able to undock again.

Just sayin'


Nice troll. That "single" neut is often another pvp toon logged off in system, waiting for first to tackle something, or just a gang on other side of a cyno.


Then he wouldn't be AFK.

You are trying to push for another agenda.


This is just a game with words.

Hey, I spent last 20 hours cloaked in this system. Locals call me AFK-cloaker, but I'm not afk at this given moment!!! I feel offended!

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:47:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 21/08/2011 13:47:42
Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Baaldor
Then he wouldn't be AFK.

You are trying to push for another agenda.
This is just a game with words.

Hey, I spent last 20 hours cloaked in this system. Locals call me AFK-cloaker, but I'm not afk at this given moment!!! I feel offended!
Actually no. The main complaint we see, is the being AFK part. Maybe you could answer my question, we can then move onto the none AFK part.

While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you?

Like I said before, I don't expect a "nothing they are AFK" answer, they clearly are affecting you. But I want to focus on the AFK aspect first, as do others.

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:59:00 - [192]
 

To me this would sound like the perfect change to bait. He warps in, lights a cyno, and you do the same. PVP FUN!

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:05:00 - [193]
 

Ok, for the people deliberately misunderstanding or who are just really really stupid.....

How do you tell the difference between a afk cloaker or someone at the keyboard?
How do you know when they come back to the keyboard?

If you came across a gun on the street, would you just pick it up and point it at your head and pull the trigger?
I mean, there is no guarenete its loaded..... Its the same thing, unless you check its loaded (and you can't check if the cloaker is afk) then there is always a risk of it going wrong. There is no way to mitigate this risk or to avoid the cloaker.

Basically for no effort to the cloaker it increases the risk in that null-sec system to a point where the whole system is useless. I've no objection to people been able to do that, but they should have to at least be putting in some effort or taking some risk to do so.

As it stands, because of what is listed above, afk cloakers for practically zero risk, with practically zero effort can make a systems that has had billions of ISK and hours of effort invested useless. The only ones actually immune to this are super-caps due to their immunity to normal tackle.

Because of bots/scripts, the only realistic way to counter this is to have a player controlled way of decloaking the entire system. Give this a long CD (5-10 minutes) with a 'spool up' of about 1 min(stops it from been used against cloakers just moving through gates e.t.c.), probably best to do this as a I-Hub upgrade. This makes it unpredictable enough.

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:11:00 - [194]
 

It doesn't make the system useless at all. Your decision to not risk it makes the system useless for you.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:32:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna

Basically for no effort to the cloaker it increases the risk


yes, afk cloaker, cynos, hotdrops and such are part of the risk living in 0.0. Crying for a nerf of the risk is pretty ridiculous.

PWNAGEROCKET ORLY
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:42:00 - [196]
 

Asking to close this thread.

My final word:

The whole thread pointed out that the cloaking device makes killing with own stupidity as the only risk possible.
Noone want's to be buffed here, we all want to keep that Nullsec risk.

My suggestion which has been obviously shared several times:
Expand the Nullsec risk rule to cloakers to the point which would make AFK cloaking impossible - and no further.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 14:53:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Bane Nucleus
It doesn't make the system useless at all. Your decision to not risk it makes the system useless for you.


Again word game. Strictly speaking system isn't useless. But with a cloaker it's security level is comparable to that of wormholes. In WH you don't know when, how and by whom you gonna be attacked. With a cloaker in system you know you gonna be attacked but don't know when and how. And in many cases info "by whom" (nickname of a cloaker) you gonna be attacked is useless. Unless you've studied habits of a cloaker, and you know for example, he never attacks after 23.00, most probably he/his friends sleep at this time.

Two years ago if someone would say, afk cloaker is a problem, I would laugh. It wasn't as easy to have dedicated alts, as it is now. And if you don't have a dedicated alt (cause you use another char on same acc for carebearing/pvp/trading), your habits are easy to figure out. I would say, if you can't reveal habits of a cloacker - it's your fault. Or - if a cloaker has a dedicated alt (acc), he deserves some kills for his efforts. But now isks are so easy to get, I personally can run two afk cloakers 23/7, and have a third toon for pvp, and pay all three accs with isks I spend few hours in month to carebear for.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:11:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: zljuka
With a cloaker in system you know you gonna be attacked but don't know when and how.
You've hit the nail on the head, you know you are going to be attacked at some point. But they have to AFK cloak, in order to subvert the intel you have gained.

But how do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?
It's the same answer to the question I've been asking, can you answer it?

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:37:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: zljuka
With a cloaker in system you know you gonna be attacked but don't know when and how.
You've hit the nail on the head, you know you are going to be attacked at some point. But they have to AFK cloak, in order to subvert the intel you have gained.

But how do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?
It's the same answer to the question I've been asking, can you answer it?


Looks like you don't live in 0.0 space. In our times if you see a blue you haven't seen before in your system, you have to assume he's a hostile/awoxer.

If somebody set an afk cloaker in carebear system, it means he knows already who carebears in that system, how often and what ships they use. Only noobs start to gather intel on locals after they've planted an afk cloaker.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:44:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: zljuka
With a cloaker in system you know you gonna be attacked but don't know when and how.
You've hit the nail on the head, you know you are going to be attacked at some point. But they have to AFK cloak, in order to subvert the intel you have gained.

But how do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?
It's the same answer to the question I've been asking, can you answer it?


Looks like you don't live in 0.0 space. In our times if you see a blue you haven't seen before in your system, you have to assume he's a hostile/awoxer.

If somebody set an afk cloaker in carebear system, it means he knows already who carebears in that system, how often and what ships they use. Only noobs start to gather intel on locals after they've planted an afk cloaker.
I lived in 0.0 for years, it's boring as hell.

Can you answer the question?

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 15:56:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: zljuka
[b]
Can you answer the question?


I'm afraid I got lost in questions. Would you write it again? In one sentence if possible.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:03:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: zljuka
Originally by: Mag's

Can you answer the question?

I'm afraid I got lost in questions. Would you write it again? In one sentence if possible.


No worries.

How do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?

The other question I alluded to was, While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you? They actually have the same answer.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:21:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 16:22:13
Originally by: Mag's

How do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?

The other question I alluded to was, While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you? They actually have the same answer.


Easily, as soon as you answer a question, what can be other reasons, except for harassing carebears, to put a cloaker in a carebear system.

Cloaker that isn't a real threat will be soon ignored by locals.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:26:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 21/08/2011 16:33:07
Originally by: zljuka
Edited by: zljuka on 21/08/2011 16:22:13
Originally by: Mag's

How do you know you are going to be attacked, or have the possibility of?

The other question I alluded to was, While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you? They actually have the same answer.


Easily, as soon as you answer a question, what can be other reasons, except for harassing carebears, to put a cloaker in a carebear system.

Cloaker that isn't a real threat will be soon ignored by locals.
Cloakers are there to try and disrupt the locals game and affect their money making possibilities. But for this to happen, they require the answer to my question and for the locals to react in a certain way.

You didn't end anything with a question mark, so I guessed at your question.

So, can you answer mine?

Edit: I'm going out now, but it's felt like pulling teeth. Laughing

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:31:00 - [205]
 


zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:58:00 - [206]
 

"How do you know if a cloaker gonna attack" is a question to abstract. There is no way to find out if he gonna attack today/in next three days/at any given time. If you put attractive bait, he might be afk, or his friends are not around. Baiting him requires efforts of few people, while staying afk requires no effort, except for keeping eve client running.

How can you find out, if a cloaker represent some threat? I guess this is correct question? In two words answer is - killboard and baits. But still either way can prove at 100% a cloaker is no threat. Usually carebears find out via trial and errors, if a cloaker is dangerous.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:20:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Danika Princip on 21/08/2011 17:21:40
There's an AFK cloaker in my home system right now. I just ignore him. if I wanted to rat, I'd just go somewhere else.

Maybe you renters should beg your landlords for a few more scraps from their tables instead of filling the forums with tears?

On second thoughts, keep whining, your tears amuse me.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:50:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 17:50:37
Originally by: Bane Nucleus
It doesn't make the system useless at all. Your decision to not risk it makes the system useless for you.
Yes I suppose I could keep a standing fleet ready literally 23 hours a day to kill a 40 million isk ship that may or may not have anyone at the keyboard that day, that seems like a legit and balanced engagement mechanic.

Andrea Roche
Posted - 2011.08.21 17:58:00 - [209]
 

Having to recloak every hour or so still allows you to hot drop or kill someone whenever the cloaker chooses. You can still recloak and do all the herass that you want. So really it only gives a window for the hunted to hunt the cloker if the cloaker forgets. This is would be balanced. Perma cloak is not by any means.

zljuka
Posted - 2011.08.21 18:14:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Andrea Roche
Having to recloak every hour or so still allows you to hot drop or kill someone whenever the cloaker chooses. You can still recloak and do all the herass that you want. So really it only gives a window for the hunted to hunt the cloker if the cloaker forgets. This is would be balanced. Perma cloak is not by any means.


You can't turn it on while you sleep or at work. 23/7 cloaker is much harder to counter, cause it takes few days alone to figure out his online time.


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