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blankseplocked Nullsec AFKloakers are a CCP design goal fail - needs discussion!
 
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PWNAGEROCKET ORLY
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:41:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY on 19/08/2011 09:52:50
Edited by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY on 18/08/2011 12:35:59
It seems obvious that the cloaking device is not discussed by the game designers at the moment or in the near future. I request to do so.

Quote from CCP "Nullsec design rules":
Quote:
Nullsec features should always reward teamwork, organization and interaction in every feature

and
Quote:
Players should be able to mitigate danger, but not eliminate it - nobody should be safe in space, [...]


The cloaking device allows players to be unkillable while waiting for their victims to leave their save spots (POS/Station). Thus hunting down pirates or mining in Nullsec becomes impossible to do for anyone in the same system. The only way to counter a single player would be to go killing pirates, wait for him to appear (which can take all day long) and then quick jump in with a small PvP fleet. 3+ characters with a time effort of 2-8 hours required to hunt down one char to avoid loss . The cloak-abusing character therefore has no time effort except killing time for his profit .

They neither do teamwork nor are they in danger while in Nullsec space. With the quotations given above, it is obviously not what CCP's game designers wanted - therefore I demand a re-thinking of this mechanic (in hope for a redesign).

New Eden is a dangerous place. One-way dangerous atm.


_________________________________________________

To sum up what I have read in this topic:



Things which are repeatedly discussed here and nobody wants to read anymore, as they are off-topic, frequently denied or seen as not solving the discussed problem more than once:
- "AFKers are no threat" (trolling or not thought about at all)
- "remove local" (off-topic)
- "nerf all cloaking" (cloaking is an interesting game mechanic and should be available to active cloaked players)
- "group up, trap & hunt them down" (AFKers strike out of sudden nowhere, so a quick-targeting, concetratedly observing group would be required for several hours to eliminate a single ship)
- "you just want to be safe and farm ISK without danger" (see "nerf all cloaking", this in fact is what AFK-cloakers do, while ruining the game experience of any active player)
- add a disconnect timer (there is a lot of inactive playing in EVE and game design as based on this in certain points - autopilot, production, several highsec activities, etc.)
___


Suggestions to reassure CCP design goals:
Please mind all effects of a possible suggestion. These might affect a series of other mechanics!

  • Make cloaked ships detectable with a high time, technique, fitting and/or ship effort (makes them move which is no problem for active players, but AFKers)

  • Make cloaking module use charges (cloaking isn't endlessly possible)

  • Make the cloaking module cycle for a longer period and disable auto-repating (cloaking isn't endlessly possible)

  • Remove local chat (a part of AFK-cloakers seem to do so only because they want to cause constant fear and corrupt the "local as intel" system)




PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS THREAT IS NOT HERE TO CONVICE ANYBODY OF ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION
it is here to bring up facts, ideas, reasons
these we should discuss, not somebodys opinion

I do not have to prove anything - I only brought up the thought that endless cloaking stands in contrast to the CCP design rules of not being save in Nullsec


of course:

AFK cloakers don't agree
Active cloakers agree
Non-cloakers agree

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:53:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY

Thus hunting down pirates or mining in Nullsec becomes impossible to do for anyone in the same system.


How is someone who is AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD going to stop you from hunting down pirates or mining?

Better yet, how is someone who is at the keyboard and cloaked going to target your ship and attack? Last time I checked you can't lock anything while cloaked.


De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:04:00 - [3]
 

OLITTA
(Oh Look It's This Thread Again)

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:46:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
Quote from CCP "Nullsec design rules":

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nullsec features should always reward teamwork, organization and interaction in every feature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Players should be able to mitigate danger, but not eliminate it - nobody should be safe in space, [...]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I would claim that cloaking devices are not only in line with the above statements, but an integral part of enforcing them.

1.) If you could scan down and kill all enemies in local, then you can effectively eliminate ALL dangers in your space. Hence, cloaks are important to the continued presence of danger in null-sec space.

2.) Running anomalies, mining, and belt ratting are activities that can be done efficiently as individuals or as groups. A solo player is very susceptible to a cloaky in system. However, a group of players significantly minimze the risk of a cloaker by being much harder to kill, much riskier to aggress, and more organized to respond. The only way a cloaker can engage then, is to organize a counter group. In this respect, cloaks completely reward teamwork, organization, and interaction for both PvE and PvP!

So, I think cloaks are very much in the spirit of nulll sec!

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:09:00 - [5]
 

It's not cloaks that are your problem, it's that 100%, risk free, instant intel tool called local.

Let's wait and see, what kind of nerf local gets shall we. Wink

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:19:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mag's
It's not cloaks that are your problem, it's that 100%, risk free, instant intel tool called local.

Let's wait and see, what kind of nerf local gets shall we. Wink


Actually, Mag's, I think you might be wron... ah, screw it LOL

Yes, it's this thread again. Local is an issue, forgetting what AFK stands for is an issue, refusing to team p to rat/fit your ship to counter cloakies is an issue. OP, you don't deserve 100% risk free ratting either, HTFU.

Joe Risalo
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:19:00 - [7]
 

Perhaps they should allow stealthed vessels to be scannable with combat drones, but a good bit more complicated to do so. This would be because those ships still have a sig radius, but it's a small one.

Then maybe they could allow FoF missiles to also track that sig radius as well and be able to decloak the vessel.

So basically if you're good enough to probe one down, all you need is one FoF missile to decloak him once he's scanned and you're set to pop.

Would that work?

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Mag's
It's not cloaks that are your problem, it's that 100%, risk free, instant intel tool called local.

Let's wait and see, what kind of nerf local gets shall we. Wink


Actually, Mag's, I think you might be wron... ah, screw it LOL

Yes, it's this thread again. Local is an issue, forgetting what AFK stands for is an issue, refusing to team p to rat/fit your ship to counter cloakies is an issue. OP, you don't deserve 100% risk free ratting either, HTFU.
<3 Feligast Laughing

Jiska Ensa
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Joe Risalo
Perhaps they should allow stealthed vessels to be scannable with combat drones, but a good bit more complicated to do so. This would be because those ships still have a sig radius, but it's a small one.

Then maybe they could allow FoF missiles to also track that sig radius as well and be able to decloak the vessel.

So basically if you're good enough to probe one down, all you need is one FoF missile to decloak him once he's scanned and you're set to pop.

Would that work?


No it woudln't. Not the probes bit. The FoF thing is interesting though, and could add some more danger to flying cloaky through a gate camp.

Keep in mind, cloaking devices were created to counter probes. Not the other way around. All ships get the ability to be immune from being found. The downside is they can't do anything themselves.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:08:00 - [10]
 

Good grief. It's the thread that wouldn't die.

Maybe the mods could make it a sticky so they can just delete any duplicates.

Maybe make the sticky thread title something like "Official AFK Cloaking whine thread"


Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:40:00 - [11]
 

AFK cloaking is good grief :)

All the system occupants have to do is buddy up and stay alert and there isn't anything you can do to them, and if they aren't willing to do that *free killz*! YARRRR!!

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:10:00 - [12]
 

An AFK cloaked character should not be totally invulnerable in the same way an ECCM fit ship shouldn't be totally unprobable.

CCP figured it out with ECCM. Its not impossible to probe those fits out now, just very very hard.

Ratters who are unable to deal with cloaky ships are sad players indeed. Last time I got attacked ratting all three of us pointed the guy and blew him away. The three times before that we got several small fleet fights. (15V10 Wormhole)(3V4 Wormhole)(5V5) I am happy to report we won all of those. Ratting in a small group of pvp ships can actually be quite fun on occasion.

But thats beside the point. Cloakys shouldn't be invulnerable.

And to the people who want to remove local without creating some other kind of intel tool (or mod) increasing the number of one sided ganks and leading to cloakys online -
FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On that note, here's a theoretical reworking of The Scanning+Cloaking+Local Channel mechanics.

#1 Remove Local

#2 Create a module that increases the distance the directional scanner reaches.
Midslot

#3 Create a module that allows the directional scanner to detect cloakies. Instead of giving shiptypes a cloaky will show up on the scanner as frigate/cruiser/battleship/capital/super/ and no distance will be given.
Highslot

#4 Create a module that allows ships to see but not lock cloakys on grid within a certain distance. The distance could be static or could be determined by the ratio between the ship's Scan Res x Sensor Strength and the cloaky's Sensor Strength/Signature Radius.
Midslot

#5 Create a destroyer module like a depth charge. This module would send out a pulse that decloaks everything within a moderate short range. Put the effect on a timer so that a cloaky that jumps the gate into a camp has a chance to escape. Make the module not affect gate cloak.
Highslot

#6 Create an 'engine masking' module. Ships with this module cannot be detected on the directional scanner unless the scanning ship's Scan Resolution x Scan Strength is greater than the equiped ship's Sensor Strength / Singature Radius * Distance in KM/(Balance Constant). Where the balance constant would be an arbitrary number designed to optimize how far the scanning ship could 'see.' This should have a simular effect with probes. This module should carry a significant penalty, such as -20% powergrid, making ships that use it less combat effective.
Lowslot

#7 Allow probes the ability to detect cloakys that are at very short range (say within 2 AU) from the probe but don't allow the probes to return a location or exact shiptype. Again it would report cloaked frigate/cruiser/battleship/capital/super with no location connected.

#8 Introduce at least one set of racial ships that receive bonuses to directional scanner range/scan resolution/sensor strength. Id be happy with a set up T2 Cloaking BC and T1 BS but thats probably asking too much.

#9 Introduce a 'noise' module that reduces the directional scanner range of all ships within range of the equiped ship but makes the equiped ship clearly visible.

#10 Let the submarine games begin.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:17:00 - [13]
 

A couple notes about that system.

Cloakies in safespots would still be safe. The closest someone could pinpoint them would be to within a quarter of an AU.

A ship would have to uncloak itself to go to 'active sensors' to operate module #3, ECCM, Sensor Boosters, and module #2.

PWNAGEROCKET ORLY
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:18:00 - [14]
 

pretty much whiners around here, eh?

What I demand is not to be safe while ratting. What I demand is that
a) As CCP's goals tell: noone is safe in space. Including cloaked ships - should be very hard to detect, might even require a whole ship's strength to find.
b) People have to be active to be a threat for others and not just by standing around. I see the point in cloaked camping, this is a possible way of PvPing. AFK-camping isn't - it's a design fail.

Real cloakers should be the ones whining. I can see them in local. I can wait. They won't be there for 5+ hours as the AFK-cloakers are.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse


All the system occupants have to do is buddy up and stay alert and there isn't anything you can do to them...


This.

Unfortunately, this is also the lesson most people don't seem to be able to learn.

Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.17 01:49:00 - [16]
 


Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY
b) People have to be active to be a threat for others and not just by standing around. I see the point in cloaked camping, this is a possible way of PvPing. AFK-camping isn't - it's a design fail.




ummm..if not active they aren't a threat.


Try this....move over to another system. If they don't follow...work out of there. **** works nice. Logged in a few times....fear of the afk high. Whatever...undock, hop over to next system after alt scout checks it. all clear, no jump into local by the big bad afk cloaky...and ratted.

Also try this....get with your corp leadership...see about being other tz friendly. Be multinational. Works wonders. AFK cloakie attacks US tz, but not Euro or oceanic. YOu know he is US based. Now you know when he actually there. Can't change your corp...pretend you are family type alliance. Hey alliance....is this dude (post linky in alliance chat) in our system all day long for your aussies and euro;s out there?". to catch the aussies....suffer a bit and wake up an hour early is eastern tz. West side...stay up late one night, you'll catch an aussie or 2 most likely.

Or if really motivated...look up his killboard stats. If an independent, battleclinic. If corped up, corp/alliance boards. Lots of kills one tz....might be a sign. Might get lucky...your afk is afk from eating vegemite so much lol.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:22:00 - [18]
 

Remove local, PROBLEM ****ING SOLVED, it's not an issue at all in wspace.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 04:58:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jack Tronic
Remove local, PROBLEM ****ING SOLVED, it's not an issue at all in wspace.

It's not an issue in wspace because nobody -ing plays there.
What was the number? 1.28% of the playerbase in w-space?

Such a wondrous success. Truly a model the rest of the game should aspire to, if CCP wants to go out of business.


PWNAGEROCKET ORLY
Posted - 2011.08.17 06:57:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
ummm..if not active they aren't a threat.


Spiders in a web which only react to every 3rd fly coming by are a threat to any fly ... checking the scans every 10 mins for players daring to go out of forcefields while doing anything else is NOT active playing.

Also you seem not to understand that there is not just one AFK-cloaker in 10 Systems ... there are more than one per system and theyre jumping around like playing musical chairs, searching for a free system before going afk.


again: I would not demand cloaking to be more expensive, easily detectable, more risky for active players or alike. I demand people threatening others to be active.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:16:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
This.

Unfortunately, this is also the lesson most people don't seem to be able to learn.
Are you _always_ playing in groups? Are there _always_ corp / alliance members nearby in your chosen system at your chosen activity? Are those friends of yours _always_ willing to do whatever you want to do?

I'm not advocating a singleplayer EVE, just trying to point out you can't always have it your way.

If you think a Freighter or Carrier or Orca or whatever can get an escort anytime it pleases them (no matter how necessary or not the trip is) it only shows you've never handled the logistics side of the game (refueling and tending reactions was only bearable because of the freighter, industrial is way too small to do much with the number of POS' any alliance has).

Though this is all inconsequential, fact remains AFK cloakers have a large impact on the playerbase, just look at all the treads it spawns (and that's the part of the players that actually bothers to come to the forums). Now, the AFK cloak won't stay AFK forever. Problem is, you don't know when he becomes active. This way, you can infiltrate deep into enemy territory and disrupt the local logistics / financial backbone with zero risk.

Now, as for removing local (as that is what some of you think is the answer); it may lead to more kills, I think it will also lead to a further exodus to high-sec. If you hate local so much, go to W-space. There's a reason not everyone is there, and local is half of that (other half is the lack of easy travel).

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:20:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: OMGWTFResearch on 17/08/2011 11:20:30
Before this topic gets out of hand again I would like to quote myself from another topic discussing a realistic way to balance the situation while protecting those who are actively in front of their clients using the cloak in its intended role. While adding great risk to being cloaked while not active in the client.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Originally by: Hansipoo
So how about AFK cloaking? Is small gang "disruption" actually going to be active? Or are big alliances still going to have an afk cloaker in every system?


We have proposed an idea to remove the incentive to walk away from your computer cloaked in a system for long periods of time while protecting those who are actively in the client using the cloak.

My part of the proposal would be a very high cost, very high skill module or probe launcher that only fits on a destroyer hull. A person using this module would "scan" a random point in space generated every time a cloak is activated (And goes away when it shuts down obviously) This would be FAR FAR FAR slower than scanning for ships and would only have the effect at the end of a decloak. This will mean it cant be used to camp areas to keep any cloaker out.

To add extra balance and to prevent any major disruption to the intended active uses. A warning would come up once the scan process has started with a final warning soon before the decloak actually happens. (perhaps 15-30 seconds after point is found) An active cloaker would simply warp away. Recloak and the process starts again.

You can see how this protects active cloakers while removing the incentive to go AFK. This would fix the issue and help improve the system and the game itself.


Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:37:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 17/08/2011 12:38:30
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Remove local, PROBLEM ****ING SOLVED, it's not an issue at all in wspace.

It's not an issue in wspace because nobody -ing plays there.
What was the number? 1.28% of the playerbase in w-space?

Such a wondrous success. Truly a model the rest of the game should aspire to, if CCP wants to go out of business.




You are truly falling for the numbers game are you? Sure there are less people but there are thousands of less systems as well.

The moment you think wspace has nobody living in it, is the moment a rabbid gang of 40 cloaky proteuses uncloak and **** you at point blank.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:48:00 - [24]
 

Try finding an unoccupied C2 or C3 wormhole system. It's doable, but it's far from easy. Almost all are occupied and used these days.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 17/08/2011 13:45:23
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 17/08/2011 12:38:30
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Remove local, PROBLEM ****ING SOLVED, it's not an issue at all in wspace.

It's not an issue in wspace because nobody -ing plays there.
What was the number? 1.28% of the playerbase in w-space?

Such a wondrous success. Truly a model the rest of the game should aspire to, if CCP wants to go out of business.




You are truly falling for the numbers game are you? Sure there are less people but there are thousands of less systems as well.

The moment you think wspace has nobody living in it, is the moment a rabbid gang of 40 cloaky proteuses uncloak and **** you at point blank.


Noticed that the first time I jumped into a WH, and without local I couldn't even say "hi", so I left and never went back.

The only way to operate socially in WH space is to bring your social group with you.

Maybe that appeals to you. It certainly appeals to some players, but I'm not one of them.

So, just came up with a real fix.

DC people after half an hour of no player directed activity. No more AFK cloaky trouble.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.17 13:56:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: De'Veldrin
This.

Unfortunately, this is also the lesson most people don't seem to be able to learn.
Are you _always_ playing in groups? Are there _always_ corp / alliance members nearby in your chosen system at your chosen activity? Are those friends of yours _always_ willing to do whatever you want to do?



No, of course not. That's silly. We are, however, ALWAYS in a fleet so that if one of us gets jumped, the rest don't have to worry about finding us. All we have to do is link the system name and yell Help in local and corp. Being part of a group that defends itself doesn't mean you all have to be doing the same thing. it just means you have to be willing to stop and help when it becomes necessary.

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted

If you think a Freighter or Carrier or Orca or whatever can get an escort anytime it pleases them (no matter how necessary or not the trip is) it only shows you've never handled the logistics side of the game (refueling and tending reactions was only bearable because of the freighter, industrial is way too small to do much with the number of POS' any alliance has).


Ops that require a freighter we schedule support for. It just requires planning ahead so we don't have the crunch you describe where the trip becomes absolutely necessary regardless of who is online. Even if we're just moving stuff in the same system we put scouts on the far side of all the gates to keep an eye out for trouble BEFORE it arrives.

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted

Though this is all inconsequential, fact remains AFK cloakers have a large impact on the playerbase...


Correction: They have a large impact on the portion of the playerbase that allow themselves to be impacted. the rest of us keep a close eye on them and go on with our day.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:04:00 - [27]
 

Why go for a DC timer when a destoyer module would add in a whole new level of gameplay? Give people who train up those skills something to be paid to do for instance.

You want to remove the incentive and add risk for going AFK not target other things.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
All we have to do is link the system name and yell Help in local and corp.
Your help is in another system? Even if some of them have remote reppers fitted, you're likely popped and podded before the cavalry arrives...

While you can indeed ignore the red (or neutral if you're NBSI) in system chances are he'll come and bite as soon as he's back from the supermarket / zoo / college / sleeping. He is there, and he is influencing the system no matter how you turn it, he just doesn't have to do anything to accomplish it. If it didn't achieve anything, then why are there so many of them, and why are there so many treads about them?

While being docked or in a POS is also 'being there' and 'not doing anything', both require time and effort (getting sov, setting up a POS with (or, for a challenge, without) consent from the owners of the system) while equiping a cheap-ass frigate with a t1 cloak and flying to some enemy system requires, what, 30 minutes of training en 300.000 ISK?, that's it.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:59:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: De'Veldrin
All we have to do is link the system name and yell Help in local and corp.
Your help is in another system? Even if some of them have remote reppers fitted, you're likely popped and podded before the cavalry arrives...


That happens unfortunately. Sometimes it even happens when your help is on the same grid with you. Occasionally it will even happen when you outnumber your opponent 10 to 1, and you just happen to be unlucky bastard the other FC called "Primary".

To borrow an expression: "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

But does that mean I should huddle in my POS/Station and stare at the little red blob in my local channel until it leaves? Or should I, being forewarned on the dangers, proceed to do as I was planning to do?

Or perhaps - just perhaps - I could band together with my corporate brethren, set a trap for the intruder, bait him into engaging, and then roflstomp his cloaking ass into dust.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:07:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

DC people after half an hour of no player directed activity. No more AFK cloaky trouble.


no, this will render afk cloaking not possible -> local as intel does not need a boost but a nerf certainly. Removing afk cloaking is bad as it is the last tool for mitigating local as intel.


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