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blankseplocked Rookie SP, a better way?
 
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Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 12/08/2011 15:20:30
TL;DR -- 50k SP is better than the 900k SP in "useless" skills, but it can still use some tweaks. The tweaks should coincide with the a revised NPE, that allows players to test every profession (as now) whilst still being in their rookie frigate.

-------------------------------

In one of the other topics about SP, a few of us ended up inadvertently coming up with this:

1. New toon is created, with "basic" stats (the 50k or so SP you get now). This might need reduced even further, and explain to the rookie that until they complete the tutorials they are not yet a fully licensed capsuleer (i.e. this is their final test).

2. re-work the rookie frigs such that they can only fit civilian modules (CPU/PG usage reduction to disallow fitting even one T1 item, or a "role bonus" to disallow using said modules)

3. re-work the tutorials to be balanced for a rookie frig to complete easily (while kitted out with civilian modules)

3.a. Add in some "PVP" tutorials -- e.g. use sleeper/incursion AI, and have the rookie help out a NPC frigate/dessie/cruiser (the mission would be "slow down the bad guys so the cruiser can hit them" or "keep them here, until reinforcements arrive"). This'll probably require civilian versions of points/webs.

4. After completing the tutorial arc, the rookie gets an "arc certificate" which certifies them for a specific type of play (miner, combat, explorer, whatever).

4.a. These certificates are the mission completion triggers for the starter agent. E.G. you have the mission "get your exploration certification from $AGENT, and return to me".

4.b. After completing *all* of the arcs (one per "profession"), go back to the starter agent and choose the certificate that you most "like".

5. You're given a "skillbook" that you have to train (would be instant, though description and last comments from training agent would indicate this is *NOT* how further skill training works). The skillbook gives the "old" base skills from the starting packages, but tweaked to fit the profession. For example, a combat pilot would get the skills for say a SAR, gunnery 2-3, racial frigates 2-3; whereas the "mining package" would get you frigate 2, mining 2-3, veld (and scord?) processing 2-3; and so on for other professions.

5.a. Somewhere in here, they give a tutorial on skill queue/training. Again, to reinforce that "normal" skill progression is in real-time, and the "rookie starting package" is an exception.


Obviously, there should be an "opt-out" ability to this, for alts and the like... but it will need at least two warnings before allowing a character to bypass the revamped tutorial.

Essentially the opt-out would boil down to "yeah, I understand completely that EVE is not every other MMO, and I really really should go through the tutorials before choosing a profession"

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:32:00 - [2]
 

As I said in the thread where this idea was first discussed, I approve.

+1 from me.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:37:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 12/08/2011 15:20:30
TL;DR -- 50k SP is better than the 900k SP in "useless" skills, but it can still use some tweaks. The tweaks should coincide with the a revised NPE, that allows players to test every profession (as now) whilst still being in their rookie frigate.



I still think there is something wrong with your base assertion here.
Of course, that might just be me being annoyed at having biomassed my Brutor Special Forces newbie toon (which didn't have any useless skillpoints) before I discovered that they'd done away with the old starter skillpoint system.

There wasn't anything wrong with the old system that paying attention to what you were getting before you hit accept didn't fix, and we do have 3 alts, so if you didn't like the way one turned out you didn't have to wait through the biomass cooldown to try something else.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:40:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Velicitia



1. New toon


"toon"

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:47:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Velicitia



1. New toon


"toon"

Toon.

JamesCLK
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.12 20:18:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: JamesCLK on 12/08/2011 20:18:27
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Velicitia



1. New toon


"toon"

Toon.


Right on!

On the actual topic though, the proposed idea is actually pretty darn good for something in the GD forum. If it hasn't already, I'd suggest also putting this up in the Assembly Hall and/or Feedback forum for people to vote on/bring to CCP's hypothetically existant agenda (although I assume the reason you posted this in the GD forum is because it's THE only real forum Rolling Eyes).

If this idea was executed perfectly, it would be like applying an army of bulldozers to the eve learning curve.

Do we want an easier game? Hell no!
Do we want more people to catch onto it? Hell yes!

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.12 20:47:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 12/08/2011 15:20:30
TL;DR -- 50k SP is better than the 900k SP in "useless" skills, but it can still use some tweaks. The tweaks should coincide with the a revised NPE, that allows players to test every profession (as now) whilst still being in their rookie frigate.



I still think there is something wrong with your base assertion here.
Of course, that might just be me being annoyed at having biomassed my Brutor Special Forces newbie toon (which didn't have any useless skillpoints) before I discovered that they'd done away with the old starter skillpoint system.

There wasn't anything wrong with the old system that paying attention to what you were getting before you hit accept didn't fix, and we do have 3 alts, so if you didn't like the way one turned out you didn't have to wait through the biomass cooldown to try something else.


there were always "useless" SP -- even if you went the combat route and completely ignored mining/industry, the starter skillsets would have a few hundred (maybe a few thousand) SP in those skill trees. No all 900k of it wasn't useless.

Granted, this all depends on when you started playing. My experiences with rookie toons were back around Trinity and right after Empyrean Age. IIRC, it was Apocrypha or Dominion where they re-did the tutorials and gave some "starter implant" to help with SP/hour for your first 30d or until you hit ~1.5m...

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:14:00 - [8]
 

Well, yes, but those SP are the ones they left.

Which is why I don't get your complaint about the original system.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:37:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 12/08/2011 21:37:05
original system:

Originally by: CCP

here's 900k SP in various stuff that you have no idea about, and you'll probably never use a portion of it... but we're giving it to you anyway.



Current System:

Originally by: CCP

here's 50k SP in various core stuff (yes, there may still be some "useless" stuff"), but at least you're not overloaded with SP all over the place. Also, we're giving you a slightly better tutorial to help you learn what you want to do.



Proposed fix:

Originally by: CCP

here's N XP in some "Starter Skills" ... and a more in depth tutorial so you have a pretty good idea of what you like doing before we throw a bunch of SP your way.

Go do the tutorials, and figure out what it is you want to do, get "skillbook" worth xx0 000 - N SP. It'll train the core skills for the profession that you have chosen.



"Starter Skills" could be as simple as Racial Frig 1 and Spaceship command (hey, you're not a fully licensed capsuleer just yet afterall)

x = [0-9].

"skillbook" instant-trains their skills to "only useful" stuff for whatever profession they chose (combat, explorer, miner, industrialist, trader, etc). Final tutorial notes being along the lines of "All future skill training is done in real-time. You can queue up to 24 hours of separate skill levels by going "here" ... "

There would obviously be some overlap (Frigate 2, etc), though for the most part stuff would be unique.

Miners would get better mining/refining skills.
Traders would get some of the "trade" skills.
Combat pilots would get gunnery/missiles.
Industrialists would get industry stuff (mass production, etc)
Researchers would get research stuff (Lab Operation, etc)
Explorers would get the archaeology/hacking skills...

and so on (in case I missed any of the professions)


Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.13 00:04:00 - [10]
 

The original skill package was determined by the choices you made during character creation, it wasn't just some random lump of skills that everyone got the same.

You could walk out of character creation with a miner, an industrialist, a starter fleet commander, or a frigate PvP capable character.

If you missed that bit it isn't any wonder you think most of the skills given out in initial character creation were useless. For you they probably were.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.13 12:39:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
The original skill package was determined by the choices you made during character creation, it wasn't just some random lump of skills that everyone got the same.

You could walk out of character creation with a miner, an industrialist, a starter fleet commander, or a frigate PvP capable character.

If you missed that bit it isn't any wonder you think most of the skills given out in initial character creation were useless. For you they probably were.


I spent a good, long time in the character creator... balancing out everything that I could. HOWEVER, the game *still* gave you skills that weren't helpful, or downright confusing (at that time).

The last character I made before the "NPE Fixes" (the better tutorials, fewer SP... but faster training time... whatever) was a caldari achura spec'd out to make a damn good researcher. Might've been right before Apocrypha (whwnever Caldari Achura was still "the toon" for a research alt)

HOWEVER, the toon still has :

  • 405 826 SP in Engineering/Shield stuff (incl. Shield Op 5)

  • 500 SP in Gunnery

  • 8 000 SP in Mechanic

  • 9 415 SP in Missile Launcher Operation

  • 8 000 SP in Trade



For a total of 431 741 SP that is unused (i.e. "useless"). There is/was no way to get rid of these SP and put them into something "useful". Yes, the toon was specifically created to be a research ALT ... but even a new character wanting to get into research would have all these skills that they'd "need" to train ...

Now, I'm ignoring the 319 670 SP in Science and the 750 SP in Spaseship Command for the following reasons ...

1. I forget how much the toon started with in Science
2. You need the spaceship command skills to fly stuff anyway.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:45:00 - [12]
 

Most of the "useless" skills you cite would be quite useful to a new player starting a Caldari research character. Running missions to get access to decent Research agents requires some ship skills, and Shield Op 5 is not a waste if you plan on ever hitting "undock" in anything bigger than a shuttle (like perhaps a Badger).

Mind you, for an experienced player in a player corp with POS access, you may be right, but should the new player experience be geared for that demographic?


 

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