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Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:31:00 - [1]
 

This topic has been started to avoid further discredit to a secular, military topic and give focus to the discussion spreading from it. Namely that of differences in theology.

Originally by: Lyn Farel

I am a scientist, and while not being a specialised scientist, I am no fanatic, and everything stating that a supernatural being is acting in lieu and place of a the Universe constitues a huge nonsense to my eyes. I consider the Amarrian God as described in the Scripture as a metaphor for the Universe and the Creation themselves, which means the Whole, and eventually incarnates the Truth of everything. God has no morals or no ethics, for that morals are a human subjective concept. With this in mind, Divine law is Natural law in my personnal and spiritual view of things.



Paladin,

Understand that I mean this in all respect, but if this is truly your viewpoint, then you have forfeited the right to discuss Scripture based theology. You deny the existence of God and replace him with metaphors and subjective reasoning.

While I agree with you on many things, I must take issue with this first and foremost. To deny the existence of God is to undermine the entire purpose and place of faith.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:42:00 - [2]
 

Lady Odelya,

It is obvious you and I have many theological disparities between us. I would remind you however that you are playing a game of semantics with your debates. You claim that you love, yet also state that "love" is defined in different degrees based on the subject.

You claim that you smite in love and retribution, but what love is there in sending someone to their eternal judgment? There is none, there is only righteous judgment. If you truly love as you claim to, then you would understand that Reclaiming is about souls, not territory, not planets, not even bodies. To save the soul is the greatest, single act we can perform in this life.

If someone turns away from the message of God, then they reject God's message and God's judgment will be upon them, on this we agree.

Where we disagree, however, is this:

Far less people would turn away from God and bear hatred for him and for his people if we would live lives that reflect his glory and reflect his mercy. We have been shown grace, why then do we not show it to others? We war, we kill, we judge, we "Reclaim" and then we expect people to willingly turn to our God? Please tell me you can see the folly is this!

How many more souls would be saved and be drawn toward God if we showed his grace and his mercy in our lives? If instead of killing and oppressing, we uplifted and encouraged? What if we spoke the truth in love, demonstrating that love to those around us? What if we gave people a reason to seek after God rather then filled them with disgust?

We are called to spread the words of truth. In every instance in The Scriptures, we are called first to be merciful, to be shepherds, to be guides - only when that has failed are we called to enact God's judgment and wrath. We're doing it backwards and yet expecting it to bring glory to God and fulfill our purpose?

If you want to save the cluster and bring it to God, then you need to live a life that would accomplish that goal. You save no one by turning their hearts against God and then killing them for it. The responsibility is on us, as God's children (that would be all of the faithful, regardless of race or status), to be his messengers and his heralds.

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:40:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Understand that I mean this in all respect, but if this is truly your viewpoint, then you have forfeited the right to discuss Scripture based theology. You deny the existence of God and replace him with metaphors and subjective reasoning.

While I agree with you on many things, I must take issue with this first and foremost. To deny the existence of God is to undermine the entire purpose and place of faith.


He's kinda right, you know.

Condor Amarr
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:37:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Understand that I mean this in all respect, but if this is truly your viewpoint, then you have forfeited the right to discuss Scripture based theology. You deny the existence of God and replace him with metaphors and subjective reasoning.

While I agree with you on many things, I must take issue with this first and foremost. To deny the existence of God is to undermine the entire purpose and place of faith.


He's kinda right, you know.


Not to mention it's blatant heresy.

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:02:00 - [5]
 

Burn her?

You know you should.

Do it.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:14:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
Burn her?

You know you should.

Do it.


If you volunteer to go first, we'll consider it.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:37:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
Burn her?

You know you should.

Do it.


I'm agreeing with the traitor Kazzzi?

* Mitara shudders.


Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:42:00 - [8]
 

Burn Lyn? That's hardly civilized. Besides, her combat record and her dedication to reclaiming our systems are such that executing her would be a pretty serious error. Whatever differences her beliefs may espouse, I can't condone such a horrendous practice.

Joqaak Huren
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:23:00 - [9]
 

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

on behalf of Her Serene Highness Odelya, I would like to inform you that Her Serene Highness has arrived on Khanid Prime and will be unavailable for the next weeks. She extends her greetings to everyone and will come back to this discussion, which is very important to her, upon her departure from Khanid and the end of the cyberknight programme. She has also asked me to express her desire for a face to face meeting in a relaxing environment to further this fruitful debate.

With kindest regards from Pallas,
Joqaak Huren
Private Secretary to HSH Odelya d’Hanguest

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:40:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ryven Krennel
executing her would be a pretty serious error.


The more serious error is in letting her continue to spread her heresy.


Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 20:06:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 12/08/2011 20:07:29
Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Ryven Krennel
executing her would be a pretty serious error.


The more serious error is in letting her continue to spread her heresy.




You only "let her continue to spread her heresy" if you don't take a voice against it with authority and righteousness. Executing heretics only makes martyrs of them and highlights an inability to silence them with righteous counter-arguments. If we believe in our faith and our righteousness to such a degree that we are willing to invade other systems and subjugate entire peoples in the name of it, then surely we have enough courage and faith to defend it in public forums?


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 20:30:00 - [12]
 

I would like to know what KotMC intends to do about this.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 20:53:00 - [13]
 

The same thing any respectable corporation would do, particularly one within the Empire:

Handle it internally.


Your concern is noted and appreciated however, Admiral.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:13:00 - [14]
 

All those wishing her burned, I have to ask how great your contribution to the war has been. How many of the empire's enemies have you hunted? How many targets captured? How many systems regained? Her beliefs, anathema though they be, are not enough for me to ever condemn her. When you can show she has done more harm than good, then I may give it credence.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:20:00 - [15]
 

I didnt think my opinion of certain people within the Empire could fall any lower.


Once again, I have been proven wrong.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:24:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Mitara Newelle on 12/08/2011 21:24:23
Edited by: Mitara Newelle on 12/08/2011 21:23:58
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Handle it internally.


So, in other words, as history would indicate and in accordance with your policies, nothing.


Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:31:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ryven Krennel
All those wishing her burned, I have to ask how great your contribution to the war has been. How many of the empire's enemies have you hunted? How many targets captured? How many systems regained?


Enough to be given recognition by a royal Heir in person should count for something, pup.

Originally by: Ryven Krennel
Her beliefs, anathema though they be, are not enough for me to ever condemn her.


They are, caldari.

Originally by: Ryven Krennel
When you can show she has done more harm than good, then I may give it credence.



Your opinion does not factor into this.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:54:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Laerise
Your opinion does not factor into this.


With all due respect, neither does yours, Admiral Laerise.


Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Laerise
Your opinion does not factor into this.


With all due respect, neither does yours, captain* Laerise.




You are right of course.

The deeds of Lyn Farel are self evident.


*It is captain, not admiral.

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:11:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 12/08/2011 22:14:57
Oh for the love of... We are not putting on a public theological trial for one of our members! Nor executing anyone for heresy or burning witches or some other ludicrous nonsense.

Really, I am quite certain Raze intended to have a serious theological debate with a fellow knight and some others here who have been contributing to the recent posts in other topics.

Now hold your tongues until you have something intelligent to say.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Oh for the love of... We are not putting on a public theological trial for one of our members! Nor executing anyone for heresy or burning witches or some other ludicrous nonsense.

Really, I am quite certain Raze intended to have a serous theological debate with a fellow knight and some others here who have been contributing to the recent posts in other topics.

Now hold your tongues until you have something intelligent to say.


Bless you, Grandmaster. Thank you.

Saikoyu
Amarr
Rho Dynamics
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:46:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Saikoyu on 12/08/2011 22:47:47
Miss Farel.

While I do not think these calls for violence against you are serious, in the case that they are, I would offer you temporary sanctuary in Rho Dynamics. There are offices in low security space if you find your current standing to the Minmatar a hindrance. There would be no requirements, other than to not shoot at anything that did not fire at you first, and to not fire at any Republic or Federation ships. But hopefully this will blow over without incident.

EDIT: Please excuse me for my slow posting of this message, I had not read the previous two messages when I started. But the offer still stands, just in case.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:50:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Mitara Newelle on 12/08/2011 22:51:08
Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 12/08/2011 22:14:57
Oh for the love of... We are not putting on a public theological trial for one of our members! Nor executing anyone for heresy or burning witches or some other ludicrous nonsense.

Really, I am quite certain Raze intended to have a serious theological debate with a fellow knight and some others here who have been contributing to the recent posts in other topics.

Now hold your tongues until you have something intelligent to say.


Very well... Your own Paladin Valadeus said it best regarding Paladin Farel:

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
you have forfeited the right to discuss Scripture based theology. You deny the existence of God and replace him with metaphors and subjective reasoning.

To deny the existence of God is to undermine the entire purpose and place of faith.



So, if you would, putting it rather bluntly - shut her up and deal with her.

However, since that is not the KotMC way...

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Tear away Admiral, all Knights are free to speak as they wish, and suffer the consequences of their words on their own.


Here we are.

Now, if you please, Grandmaster Shutaq... Stand aside.


Hiram Olacar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:58:00 - [24]
 

Forgive this intrusion into your “dialogue”. I pray that the “Reclaiming” that sparked this discussion is indeed God’s Will, and thus just and right.

It is good to see the God of our fathers discussed, even by careless tongues. Perhaps through it the seed of faith will spread, even to fields unsown and choaked with weeds.

But.

We must remain ever cautious to the deceits of mistaken prophets. Who speak to us in silken voice the things, which a rebellious people and lying children want to hear. How often are we warned in scripture, verse and prophecy, that many, which have not been commanded by God, will presume to speak a word in his name.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:02:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 12/08/2011 23:03:34
Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Edited by: Mitara Newelle on 12/08/2011 22:51:08
Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 12/08/2011 22:14:57
Oh for the love of... We are not putting on a public theological trial for one of our members! Nor executing anyone for heresy or burning witches or some other ludicrous nonsense.

Really, I am quite certain Raze intended to have a serious theological debate with a fellow knight and some others here who have been contributing to the recent posts in other topics.

Now hold your tongues until you have something intelligent to say.


Very well... Your own Paladin Valadeus said it best regarding Paladin Farel:


Knight, actually, I have not earned the position of paladin.

Originally by: Mitara Newelle

So, if you would, putting it rather bluntly - shut her up and deal with her.

However, since that is not the KotMC way...

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Tear away Admiral, all Knights are free to speak as they wish, and suffer the consequences of their words on their own.


Here we are.

Now, if you please, Grandmaster Shutaq... Stand aside.



Paladin Farel will be held accountable to her words first to God and second to those with the authority to hold her accountable, you are neither.

Finally, the least you can do before dragging out your proverbial pitchforks and torches, foaming at the mouths like rabid dogs ready to pounce on the opportunity to exercise your own self-righteousness, she is entitled to speak on her own behalf and answer the above statement.

Now, Admiral, as you so kindly suggested to our Grandmaster, step aside.


Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:25:00 - [26]
 

In questions of faith, the atheist rejects the fundamental structure of faith which we, as defenders of that faith, find incomprehensable.

I have stated this, as well as the fine points Raze brings up, in earlier posts and have had conversations with senior members of KOTMC regarding my desire to have these kinds of positions clarified and justified with resepct to the community of the faithful.

Our have questions remain unanswered.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:32:00 - [27]
 

How cute. My ethnicity gets drawn into this. My conversion to the faith, however, seems unimportant. Caldari born, orphan raised, amarr by choice. The God she denied is my own. I simply understand that pragmatism makes her an asset.

James Syagrius
Gallente
Advent Ltd.
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:35:00 - [28]
 

It must be some inexplicable law of the universe, that wherever Raze goes, I, sooner or later must follow. Don’t get me wrong I love listening to the nuances of… ~drums his fingers on the console~ Well let me just get to the point.

It has always puzzled me why discussions about “God “must always decline into a brawl.

I must admit that I divested myself of the most of the residual vestiges of religious dogma I inherited from my mother.

Having said that I must admit that I have retained, ~picks an olive out of a bowl and chews it then continues~, well reconciled, myself to this simple observation.

A religious inclination lies in all of us. That behind all the laws and connections we have concocted to explain away the universe, there is something else, something subtle, inexplicable, and elusive. That all of this ~waves his hands about~ is no accident, but the work of something fundamental to the cause of our existence.

~smiles pleasantly~ Well excuse the heretic intermission.

~disconnects~

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:54:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Laerise on 12/08/2011 23:54:49
Originally by: Ryven Krennel
How cute. My ethnicity gets drawn into this. My conversion to the faith, however, seems unimportant. Caldari born, orphan raised, amarr by choice. The God she denied is my own. I simply understand that pragmatism makes her an asset.



As a caldari you should know about the dangers of atheism.
As a believer in the true faith you should know what to do about Lyn Farel.

If you knew the true faith you should have already taken action by now.

There is no middle ground and you know it.

Originally by: The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21
"So instructed the Queen to her champion,
‘Beware the righteous who seek truth in spirit alone;
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word,
Great misery follows those who heed what only the weak have heard.
Heed me champion, for only you shall know;
Within the blue ring of fire lies the final key of revelation.
Find this ring, my champion, and both mind and spirit shall be strong once more.’"


Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.13 01:20:00 - [30]
 

What a simple world you live in. Those that believe exactly the same as you deserve life. Those that believe nothing deserve enslavement and education. Those that believe something but not the same as you deserve death. I pity you, living in a world of black and white, devoid of color.

A heretic, sure, insofar as shattributes a different substance to God than we do. But her reverence for her impersonal divine is still devout. Her actions still spread the might and glory of the empire. Her work still furthers our goals. Let God judge her, not I.

We manage to work with our godless allies. I see Lyn as a comrade.


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