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blankseplocked [Bond: FILLED] 4Bil, 5%, station trading/manufacturing
 
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Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.12 07:19:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Deus Mallius on 27/08/2011 23:28:37
Edited by: Deus Mallius on 19/08/2011 06:57:49
1) Details
2) Business Model
3) Returns
4) Exit Strategy
5) Hit by a bus
6) Collateral
7) Risks
8) Alts
9) Q & A

1. Details:
To extend my finiancial empire I need some new capital. This will take the form of a 4 billion isk bond made up of 80 shares of 50 million isk each.

2. Business model:
Combination of station trading and manufacturing. (Original, I know) I will happily discuss specifics with investors.

Investor capital would be used to buy minerals for manufacturing and for additonal station trading capital. I currently have a small but profitable portfolio of BPOs and the invention skills to invent and build pretty much any T2 ship/module/etc.

3. Returns:
Interest of 5% will be paid monthly on the anniversary of the bond.

Interest may be a little before or after the anniversary date due to RL constraints but will aim for the correct date.

4. Exit Strategy
Nominal duration will be 3 months. Extension will be by investor approval. Investors may decline to extend and they will receive their principle + interest at the end of the 3 month period.

I reserve the right to end the bond at any stage and pay out the principle + interest pro-rata for the period.

Investors retain the right withdraw from the bond at any time. If 5 days are given to allow liquidation of assets then pro-rata interest will be given to the point at which the request was first made.
If less time is given then interest is nominally forfeit due to cancelling orders etc. I may give pro-rata interest at my discretion.

5. Hit by a bus
I will leave instructions with my wife should the above or similar occur that would allow investors to be paid out the amount owed should the bond continued for the full 2 months.

6. Collateral:
All but a small amount of my assets are used in either trading, speculation, manufacturing or mission running. The rest would not come close to covering collateral and so I offer none so to save hassles. My situation does not allow me to change corps to allow lockdown of BPOs by a 3rd party.

Would happily discuss the above with an auditor.

7. Risks
Obivous first risk, scam. As always, it is possible. I leave it to the investor to gauge risk. I am happy to submit to an audit from a mutally agreed auditor.

Mitigating factors:
-Have run "BPOs to order" for a little over a year, many happy customers: http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1312491
-Previous successful bond: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1228876
-Audit (Optional but happy to oblige)

Red flags:
-Considerably larger than first bond
-Still a fairly unknown player
-No collateral

Other risks:
The items I trade could crash; Unlikely as I'll be spreading the risk around many items and item groups. Well past a major patch so large shifts are unlikely.
The items I manufacture could crash. While more likely due to my fairly limited BPO collection, I can easily shift gears and pour more into station trading and absorb any losses using my personal capital.

8. Alts:
If the audit proceeds then alts will disclosed to the auditor who will verify I have the skills required to run a bond.

Edit - Upped interest to 5% flat.
Changed amount to 4 bil and shares to 80.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.12 07:21:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Deus Mallius on 12/08/2011 07:21:33
9. Q & A:
To be filled.


Investor list:



edit: Added investor list

Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.08.12 08:36:00 - [3]
 

Please define 'station trading' Trading the spread on goods in stations? will you be trading in jita?

Jerry Pepridge
Posted - 2011.08.12 09:38:00 - [4]
 

would like pledge 20b

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.12 10:24:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Atima
Please define 'station trading' Trading the spread on goods in stations? will you be trading in jita?


Yeah, trading on the spread, not in jita, but a couple of regional markets.

TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.08.12 11:08:00 - [6]
 

Up the interest to 10% - and I'll throw 5B your way.



Angsty Teenager
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:23:00 - [7]
 

I pledge -20bil.

trance atlas
Posted - 2011.08.13 01:26:00 - [8]
 

5% and below is for with collateral
8% and above are for without collateral and no/limited rep
5-8% is for no collateral having rep and being a bitter vet that wants to scam


you are 1 of them

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:22:00 - [9]
 

I leave it to the investor to gauge worth and risk of this bond.

I will up the interest to 5% flat, any number of investors as this doesn't seem to have gathered the interest I thought it might.


TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.08.13 14:56:00 - [10]
 

trance atlas's post was actually pretty good advice.

4%/5% for an un-collateralised loan is simply too low for the majority of investors around here.

Which explains the lack of interest.



OllieNorth
Gallente
R-K Industries
Posted - 2011.08.13 17:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: TornSoul
trance atlas's post was actually pretty good advice.

4%/5% for an un-collateralised loan is simply too low for the majority of investors around here.

Which explains the lack of interest.





This, 5% is a reasonable rate for collateralized loans if you are new to the forum. For uncollateralized, you will need something around a 10% to get bites, the risk isn't worth 5%.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.14 01:13:00 - [12]
 

I would have thought that my long term bpo shop and previous bond with 50% collateral would have sufficed.

I shall reduce the offering to 4 billion. interest will remain at 5. if people are too risk averse, then so be it.

trance atlas
Posted - 2011.08.14 03:40:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Deus Mallius
I would have thought that my long term bpo shop and previous bond with 50% collateral would have sufficed.

I shall reduce the offering to 4 billion. interest will remain at 5. if people are too risk averse, then so be it.


a first off a shop is when someone buys something you have for something else. not i give you 4 bil then wait a month then you give me thingy.

b never knew you had another bond as you did not post them.

c reduce it to 1 bil or increase it to 1567bil still think 5% is **** compared to rvr but im just a bittervettroll.jpg

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.14 04:31:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Induc on 14/08/2011 04:34:09
Originally by: Deus Mallius
I would have thought that my long term bpo shop and previous bond with 50% collateral would have sufficed.

I shall reduce the offering to 4 billion. interest will remain at 5. if people are too risk averse, then so be it.

Why would you lower it to 4 billion if you somehow came up with 10 billion being the optimal amount? If 10 billion was not the optimal amount then why did you initially ask for more than you thought was needed?

Right now you're kinda like: "Oh well 10 bill is probably too much so instead just give me as much as I can get away with"

It's not about how much at what % or with how big of a collateral. It's why you need the money.
According to your previous bond you had a NAV of over 3B, 9 months ago. How much (roughly) have you got now? Why is it that you need an additional 10 billion?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just saying these are the kind of questions you should be answering. (I'm less interested in whether or not I'll get repaid some imaginary internet spaceship money if you are rude enough to go and die IRL)

trance atlas
Posted - 2011.08.14 04:33:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Induc
Originally by: Deus Mallius
I would have thought that my long term bpo shop and previous bond with 50% collateral would have sufficed.

I shall reduce the offering to 4 billion. interest will remain at 5. if people are too risk averse, then so be it.

Why would you lower it to 4 billion if you somehow came up with 10 billion being the optimal amount? If 10 billion was not the optimal amount then why did you initially ask for more than you thought was needed?

Right now you're kinda like: "Oh well 10 bill is probably too much so instead just give me as much as I can get away with"

It's not about how much at what % or with how big of a collateral. It's why you need the money.
According to your previous bond you had a NAV of over 3B, 9 months ago. How much (roughly) have you got now? Why is it that you need an additional 10 billion?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just saying these are the kind of questions you should be answering. (I'm less interested in whether or not I'll get repaid some imaginary internet spaceship money if you are rude enough to go and die on me IRL)




please only snarky condescending tones

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.14 05:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Induc
Edited by: Induc on 14/08/2011 04:34:09
Why would you lower it to 4 billion if you somehow came up with 10 billion being the optimal amount? If 10 billion was not the optimal amount then why did you initially ask for more than you thought was needed?

Right now you're kinda like: "Oh well 10 bill is probably too much so instead just give me as much as I can get away with"

It's not about how much at what % or with how big of a collateral. It's why you need the money.
According to your previous bond you had a NAV of over 3B, 9 months ago. How much (roughly) have you got now? Why is it that you need an additional 10 billion?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just saying these are the kind of questions you should be answering. (I'm less interested in whether or not I'll get repaid some imaginary internet spaceship money if you are rude enough to go and die IRL)



10 Bil would be better in that I could certainly do more with it but 4 has advantages too. I picked 10 because it's nice and round not because of any deep analysis into how much I need. Anything 'extra' would be used for station trading.

I happy with 4 bil for several reasons:
it's easier to fill
it's less of a "this is enough that I can run away with and I'm not worried if my reputation is tarnished" and so the apparent risk is lower (Correct me if I am wrong)
It's an easier amount to handle.

As for Nav it's 20+ Bil using a 20% trim on sell orders, 10% trim on stockpiles, NPC prices on (researched) BPOs and rough market price for everything else. It's probbably more but this is a good indication.

I understand where you are coming from Iduc, and I take no offense at all and in fact welcome such probes.

Recently I have been buying up BPOs and researching them if need be. The problem is that I dont have enough spare isk to buy materials, build, sit on the items and station trade to full effect, but having the BPOs sit idle isn't ideal either. The extra isk would be used mainly for building materials while the rest would support station trading.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.14 05:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: trance atlas

a first off a shop is when someone buys something you have for something else. not i give you 4 bil then wait a month then you give me thingy.

b never knew you had another bond as you did not post them.

c reduce it to 1 bil or increase it to 1567bil still think 5% is **** compared to rvr but im just a bittervettroll.jpg


A) You and I differ on this and I won't debate the definition of 'shop', but my overall point stands.
B) "Mitigating factors:
-Have run "BPOs to order" for a little over a year, many happy customers: http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1312491
-Previous successful bond: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1228876
-Audit (Optional but happy to oblige)"
C) Unsure of what RVR is, but I'll take it as something akin to 'market value' given the context. If that is the case then 5% may not be wonderful but it's not terrible either (In my opinion)

Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.14 05:49:00 - [18]
 

If your NAV is 20b+ then you shouldn't have too much trouble finding 4bn of items to give to a third party or investor as collateral, especialy if there are a lot of BPOs involved in that pile.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.14 06:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tigerras
If your NAV is 20b+ then you shouldn't have too much trouble finding 4bn of items to give to a third party or investor as collateral, especialy if there are a lot of BPOs involved in that pile.


All of them are being used is the issue. I have very few assets that are idle, and those that are, are collectively worth in the region of 100 mil.
With that in mind I don't want the hassle of organising BPOs for collateral and then trying to use said BPOs in production.

If having no collateral kills this offering, then very well, I can live with that.
I'd rather not have a bond then have one that I am not happy with running.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.17 07:42:00 - [20]
 

Have contacted Taram Caldar regarding an audit.

If this would help allay some fears and get some investors let me know, otherwise I won't waste his time or my money.

Tom Hagen
Posted - 2011.08.17 08:13:00 - [21]
 

Just out of curiosity!

"5. Hit by a bus
I will leave instructions with my wife should the above or similar occur that would allow investors to be paid out the amount owed should the bond continued for the full 2 months."

How did that conversation go?

"Oh btw, if I ever get hit by a bus or die suddenly I want to show you how to logg in to my internet game and pay some unknown people some ISK.."

And will she do it before or after she called 911?
Just so that we know how important this is to her and you ;-)

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:59:00 - [22]
 

She knows my passwords and where I document things. As an Eve player she understands.

And it's just just about being 'Hit by a bus" but anything that my mean that I myself can not complete the bond.

Caliph Muhammed
Caldari
Caldari Naval Criminal Investigative Service
Posted - 2011.08.17 12:10:00 - [23]
 

Character is 2 years old. 2 billion uncollateralized is a relatively safe investment.

OllieNorth
Gallente
R-K Industries
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:50:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Deus Mallius
I happy with 4 bil for several reasons:
it's easier to fill
it's less of a "this is enough that I can run away with and I'm not worried if my reputation is tarnished" and so the apparent risk is lower


[mad bro]
Will people stop writing this? It means nothing! None of us believe that anyone has an amount that is too small to risk their "reputation". The only one here who knows and believes that you have a value of your own word is you. The rest of us are convinced you are a scammer. Using this as a justification for your bond amount is ridiculous.
[/mad bro]

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.17 21:08:00 - [25]
 

In the interest of full disclosure the OP approached me about getting an audit but only wanted me to audit 1 character on 1 account. I informed him that I don't do audits that way.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.17 23:43:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
In the interest of full disclosure the OP approached me about getting an audit but only wanted me to audit 1 character on 1 account. I informed him that I don't do audits that way.


and thats fine. if there is sufficient interest in the bond given a FULL audit of all accounts and chars then i will happily proceed.


Tom Hagen
Posted - 2011.08.18 00:03:00 - [27]
 

In the current environment, getting 10 Bill for a quite unknown char wil likely prove difficult. Anyhow, a few bits of advice as to why you are unable to fill the bond after a full week with your current offer:

1) Sum involved. 10B for a new char is steep.

2) Lack of collateral. 10B for a new char w/o collateral is.. ..well raising more than one red flags..

3) Offered interest is way, way to low. 5% would be going rate for a collateralized loan. W/o collateral and with the risk profile I would say that 10% is minimum interest rate. But given current investment climate and recent scams that might not be enough...

4) Lock-in effect / length of bond. You do not offer any way out of the bond until after 3 months. This means two things: a) Will make people unable to free up capital for their own ventures if needed. b) sounds like a nice excuse for you to make off without anyone noticing for a long period of time...

5) Several other red flag signals - such as prilminary audit only availible for primary main..

TL;DR version:
Get collateral, increase interest and reduce run-time of bond.

If you wanna fill it that is Very Happy

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:34:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Deus Mallius on 18/08/2011 07:35:32
Originally by: Tom Hagen
In the current environment, getting 10 Bill for a quite unknown char wil likely prove difficult. Anyhow, a few bits of advice as to why you are unable to fill the bond after a full week with your current offer:

1) Sum involved. 10B for a new char is steep.
2) Lack of collateral. 10B for a new char w/o collateral is.. ..well raising more than one red flags..
3) Offered interest is way, way to low. 5% would be going rate for a collateralized loan. W/o collateral and with the risk profile I would say that 10% is minimum interest rate. But given current investment climate and recent scams that might not be enough...
4) Lock-in effect / length of bond. You do not offer any way out of the bond until after 3 months. This means two things: a) Will make people unable to free up capital for their own ventures if needed. b) sounds like a nice excuse for you to make off without anyone noticing for a long period of time...
5) Several other red flag signals - such as prilminary audit only availible for primary main..

TL;DR version:
Get collateral, increase interest and reduce run-time of bond.

If you wanna fill it that is Very Happy


All points taken onboard, a couple of responses:
1) Only seeking 4 Bil now, which is still a sizeable amount. And I wouldn't exactly say '2 years old' is new over a span of 8, but point taken.
2) I'd still only say 1 red flag, albeit a big one :P
3) I agree its low in terms of collat vs uncollat, but in terms of raw interest, its not bad. Not great, but not bad. And that the current climate is....bad to say the least.
4) Something I overlooked, thank you for pointing it out. Will ajust main post with pull out terms.
5) When I approached Taram Caldar regarding the audit the price I was quoted/found was 50 mil per account, which was too much to do 2 accounts given that only 1 was going to use the funds. I was then informed of a price change which made it more attractive to do both accounts...But I won't have it done if there is no interest at all.

Thanks for your input Tom.


Overall, it seems I picked a lousy moment to get this off the ground...I will persist though.

Edit: Spelling

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:09:00 - [29]
 

Here's some friendly advice on your bond offering.

1) Your interest rate is too low for such a large bond with no collateral. As someone already mentioned that's the top end of collateralized loan rates. I'd recommend a rate somewhere between 8 and 12% for this.
2) Your 'buy in' cost is too high. 500 mil is a lot of isk to ask people for as a 'minimum' investment amount.
3) Given that you have almost no history here you really need to get an audit. I'm not saying you have to get one from me but you need to get an audit from someone.
4) If you do get an audit getting one done on all your accounts will generate a LOT more trust than trying to get someone to audit only 1 character. In fact getting an audit on only 1 character will raise more suspicion than no audit at all.

While you have run 1 previous bond the problem you are running into here is simple:
Previous bond was only 1 billion, had 50% collateral and had a 7% rate of return. To try to ask for a bond that is 10x larger and has no collateral at a minimal interest rate after only 1 bond and also asking for minimum investment of 500 million is not going to get off the ground. I do see that you lowered your asking ammount to 4bil but your interest terms and entry fee are still too low, and too high, respectively.

Good luck with your bond. Hope these suggestions help.

Deus Mallius
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2011.08.19 06:57:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
Here's some friendly advice on your bond offering.
*Snip*



1. I've run the numbers and if I knew I was going to get 3 good months of trading/building than I would offer 7, but the numbers are telling me that 5 is the best I could do. If thats not enough, fine. I've said earlier, I'd rather not had a bond than one I'm not happy with.

2. Good advice. Will change shortly.

3. I've said numerous times now, I'm happy to get an audit if there is interest in the offering. At this stage I'd rather not spend money that will likely get me no where.

4. See 3.

5. Previous bond was only 1 bil, but I have handled far more than that through my shop front BPOs to Order.

Thanks for your input Taram.


I will run what data I have for August and if it is promising than I will increase the interest. Something I can not move on though is collateral. Any collateral provided would essentially be an isk transfer which defeats the point...


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