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blankseplocked Booster Revamp: We can make these work
 
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Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:21:00 - [1]
 

First off, thanks Zarnak Wulf, this came out of your post about consumables, and I was getting ready to add it in, but decided it'd be bad form for me to hijack your thread, as this wasn't where you wanted your idea to lead.

The current booster system really doesn't get much use. The prospect of having your ability take a temporary hit is detrimental enough, but the frequency in which it occurs is so great that really almost no one uses these. There's really nothing quite like slamming a booster getting ready to go out and have some pvp fun, only to have it backfire, and in such a negative way as to just make you want to log and try again tomorrow. Imagine having the bad luck to have this happen to you two nights in a row! Sure, you can train up skills to reduce the probability of this happening, or reduce the negative effect, but even with these skills trained up they really aren't worth it.

By taking away the potential, chance based negative side-effects of boosters and adding withdrawal, I think we could make a booster system that players actually use. Boosters would become something actually worth making to sell, and they would become the neat commodity that CCP wants traded in establishments. Let's face it, in the current booster system, if establishments are where you are going to trade boosters, those places are going to be empty XD

The first step is adding a way in the code to track the withdrawal:

Each time you take a booster you get a certain amount of it in your system, which wears off over time. The more in your system when you take the booster, the greater the effect of the booster, up to it's cap. The amount in your system determines the amount of the debuff you take when the booster wears off, up to a cap.

New Booster Algorithm: (These numbers are for illustrative purposes only, they could be changed if devs thought they wanted them higher/lower)

Withdrawal Thresholds:
1. (90 - 100) = -10% debuff
2. (100 - 200) = -15% debuff
3. (200 - 300) = -20% debuff
4. (300 - 400) = -25% debuff
5. (400 - 600) = -30% debuff

Active Boost Thresholds:
1. (100 - 150) = +10% buff
2. (150 - 200) = +20% buff
3. (200 - 300) = +25% buff
4. (300 - 400) = +30% buff
5. (400 - 600) = +35% buff

1. Pilot takes booster X, increasing booster amount by 100.
2. Consult Active Boost Threshold table to see how much buff for 1 hour.
3. Booster amount reduces by ~4.1666666 per hour (100/day).
4. 1 hour later booster wears off.
5. Consult Withdrawal Thresholds table to determine debuff amount.

The casual user taking one every couple of days would get less benefit, but only has to worry about the occasional ~1 hour of debuff. Someone chomping boosters all the time to max out their effectiveness and go top notch for several hours at a time would develop a serious habit, requiring around 6 days of no boosters to "get clean". These pilots would end up rushing to the establishment whenever their "stash" gets low, their suppliers upping the cost once they realize how desperate this guy is to not miss the next roam because his shields are at -30% right now.

Current booster related skills could be translated to reduce the debuff amount or increase the amount of booster removed from your system per hour.

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:57:00 - [2]
 

Nice idea.

I think there should be safe amount to take that won't cause any withdrawal effects. If you take 250(what is the unit?)/day for example.

Also if you use too much(maybe 20 times in a week)you should get permanent(a month) -10% debuff whenever you don't use. See a doctor to cure you.

Anyway, i specially like the way you can take another doze to cancel the debuff. It shouldn't prevent you from playing!

Veronica Kerrigan
Minmatar
Hand Of Midas
F0RCEFUL ENTRY
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:18:00 - [3]
 

+1 I don't use boosters (haven't really found a need for em), but I definitely would if they worked like this

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:45:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Plyn on 11/08/2011 19:47:50
Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
I think there should be safe amount to take that won't cause any withdrawal effects. If you take 250(what is the unit?)/day for example.


Could make the withdrawal threshold for the first level 95-100, this would mean that the pilot would be below that level (or very near it) when the booster wears off, if they had 0 in system before. The only reason I don't like that is that I feel like there should be a downside to the boost, even if it is only around an hour for the "casual" user. The numbers I put out are completely arbitrary, though. They could easily be tweaked to allow any combination of withdrawal times, based off whatever the devs feel like is a fair/balanced tradeoff for the hour(or whatever length) of bonus.

This is all just my personal opinion on it though. People using a set of boosters once a day with no side effects whatsoever just sounds a little too cozy. In the end, I want people who use boosters to -want- to become addicted to them, or at least have a gentle nudge towards it. This way you ensure that the booster market thrives. If you take a booster to get a bonus while you mission/rat and all of a sudden your corp puts on a roam or a CTA, I think it's ideal that you need to down another one so you aren't hindered, and then pay the price later. Otherwise, you can just continue about your business, and you would probably see 100% of the EVE population become casual users.

Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
Also if you use too much(maybe 20 times in a week)you should get permanent(a month) -10% debuff whenever you don't use. See a doctor to cure you.


This is sort of along the lines of where I was going with the higher levels taking 6+ days to wear off. I've got no problem with making higher levels that take even longer to get off, except that, like you mentioned, I really don't want this to turn into something where someone feels like they can't play for a while because they boosted too much. 6 days is a long time if the boosters suddenly become scarce for whatever reason, much less a month.

The idea of a doctor helping might work, though. It could be possible to add an option in the medical bay of stations where your negative side effects are negated for an hour, for a hefty price. That would be a nice isk sink. Wouldn't want it to completely wipe out your addiction though, because there should be a little bit of hassle involved if you're using this stuff all the time. That could actually be a potential solution to your casual user having no effects option. You get an hour of boost, then have to drop 2+mil isk or something to get off free.

Good feedback!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the units would likely be miligrams, I suppose.

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:40:00 - [5]
 

I dunno what to say but this sounds awesome. Very Happy

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:55:00 - [6]
 

+1

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:41:00 - [7]
 

I'm sorry i don't think I understand. Are you saying you get the buffs but none of the drawbacks for a time? If so how long? Then after the buffs wear off you get the debuffs?

Sorry I'm so dumb but I'm not sure I'm following you.

Anyway I once heard an idea that I thought was good. It was just that if you popped a booster and got some bad side effects you could take another and sort of reroll the dice. Seemed decent to me.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:39:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cearain
I'm sorry i don't think I understand. Are you saying you get the buffs but none of the drawbacks for a time? If so how long? Then after the buffs wear off you get the debuffs?


Yep, that's basically how it'd work. The amount of time is arbitrary at this point, but for easy maths I've been saying an hour of buff. The length of the debuff after the buff wears off depends on how much is still in your system. I'll give an example:

My character takes a booster to increase his armor repair amount. Woot! He's feeling awesome, he's fending off damage, and my character is totally high on repping up. He's buffed.

An hour later (or whatever time arbitrarily decided by devs) the high wears off. Now my character is feeling sluggish. The boost was exciting, and took more than his body really had to offer, and he needs some time to recover. Think of it being like having a hangover after a night of wild drinking and partying. He ain't feeling too hot, and probably killed more braincells than he planned. If you've been badly hungover before, you'll probably know what I'm talking about. He's debuffed.

Now, he can hammer another booster and get that high back! Screw this sluggish crap, he's got some blood raiders to pop, and there isn't time for recovery, it's go go go! Now he's back on top of the world! Ready to kick some ass! He's buffed again, and probably a little more so now, because his body hadn't really gotten all of it cleaned out before.

A little while later, he comes back down, and man is he crashing! He didn't take time to recover from the first hit, so this second one has really taken a lot out of him. What would have been an hour to recover, is now feeling like he'll need a whole day of rest. Plus, he's feeling way more sluggish and crappy than before. He's debuffed, and even more so than before.

Now, the question... Does he wait a day to get back into shape, or does he say screw it, pick up a handful of boosters to keep in his pod at all times, and fly off in search of a steady dealer so he doesn't have to worry about getting stuck without his boost?

Originally by: Cearain
Anyway I once heard an idea that I thought was good. It was just that if you popped a booster and got some bad side effects you could take another and sort of reroll the dice. Seemed decent to me.


This would probably make boosters popular, sure, but there is no negative side effect to using them then. Just keep 10 on you at all times, and it'd be an extreme statistic anomaly if you ever actually got stuck with a debuff. I think the withdrawal would be both more immersive, as well keep 100% of the population from using it. Lots of pilots would use it, but others would hold back, because while the boost is great, they don't want the debuff afterwards, and it's too expensive/too much of a hassle to smuggle around police, etc. etc. Culture and counter-culture both, instead of just another thing everyone has to have to play.

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:45:00 - [9]
 

Cool concept.

Not sure if you mention this but the "debuff" should only wear off if the player is online.

Also, I would love it if synth boosters helped negate debuff effects.

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:54:00 - [10]
 

If you mix multiple types of boosters will you go nuts? Boosters are good mixing is bad. And if mixing is bad, will you get fined for it in hisec by concord?

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:52:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
If you mix multiple types of boosters will you go nuts? Boosters are good mixing is bad. And if mixing is bad, will you get fined for it in hisec by concord?


if you get caught with boosters in your cargohold in high sec the police will start shooting you and give you a fine (together with a standing hit)

if you have a booster active they can't detect it

that is one of the reasons boosters are rather expensive in high sec
that and the fact that there is almost no information available about it as those that do know don't tell as to keep the competition low

also atm most boosters are traded directly from production to customer and not on the market (usually in low/0.0 space to avoid the police)

most of that info i found when i was looking around to start drug production myself but the lack of solid info and the high start-up cost made me put those plans on ice and just sell the gas i had in store on the market (usually for a good prise )

i did read some stuff from CCP that they where planning some changes in boosters tho so i will be watching to see what changes

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:29:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Not sure if you mention this but the "debuff" should only wear off if the player is online.


Left this out of the idea on purpose, actually, as this would play a huge role in balancing the tradeoff between withdrawal and benefit.

The numbers I put up in the example tables I guess are probably more geared towards the clock running when the player isn't online, though as I mentioned before, if the devs decided to do something like this I have no doubt they would completely rework them.

Supposing it only ran down while the player was online, and supposing a player spends ~4 hours a day on EVE (god I wish I had that much time to play!) then it would take ~6 days to recover from boosting for 2 consecutive hours. It sounds like a really long time to me, so if it only ran down while online I'm sure the "decay" or the amount in system would probably be more forgiving.

Let's also not forget how easy it is to just leave yourself logged in when you go to work in the morning, just to run the clock down... so I figure you may as well let it run down when you're offline too.

Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Also, I would love it if synth boosters helped negate debuff effects.


That's a pretty good addition! Perhaps taking the synth of that drug negating it's debuff, or lessening it, for an hour would prove to be an interesting out for players trying to work off their withdrawal and still function in game.

Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
If you mix multiple types of boosters will you go nuts? Boosters are good mixing is bad.


Another good addition! To take mixing and synergy into consideration it could be possible to place a small multiplier on the amount entering the pilot's system based on the number of boosters already present. Perhaps something like a 20% increase per drug? So a single drug gives you 100 every time you take it. Taking a second drug while you have that in system gives you 120 of that second drug, a third would add 144 of that drug, etc. This could be a good thing and a bad thing, as a player could quickly boost themselves into the second tier of a booster's benefits, but then have the increased headache of managing all the withdrawals. Also could be a potential deterrent to people taking one of each booster every 24 hours to be a "casual" user of everything.

Hydraka
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:54:00 - [13]
 

CCP respond dammit Evil or Very Mad

Demond Zeld
Posted - 2011.08.14 06:48:00 - [14]
 

Nice ideas, though I think it could also do with another mechanic linked to the amount in your system having an effect on the benefit of the booster, so the more you have in your system lessens the amount of benefit the booster gives, thus requiring the constant user to get stronger stuff to get the same hit.

YARRRR!!

Jon Marburg
The Executioners
Capital.Punishment
Posted - 2011.08.14 17:47:00 - [15]
 

Excellent ideas! I like the thought that if you are a frequent user you're going to have to use a higher amount or stronger boosters to maintain that performance. So if you're loading up everyday eventually you'll need to take an additional hit to maintain the "high" you had before. While I think the withdrawal debuff should occur after the the boost wears off, I think the withdraw effects should be different than what the booster effects similar to how the side effects are now. Otherwise i can see someone going out in a boosted armor tanker and then switching out to a buffer fit or something after the booster wears off and end up never having to face the negative effects or need to pop an extra booster to avoid them.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:48:00 - [16]
 

Great idea!

Plyn
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:17:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jon Marburg
Excellent ideas! I like the thought that if you are a frequent user you're going to have to use a higher amount or stronger boosters to maintain that performance. So if you're loading up everyday eventually you'll need to take an additional hit to maintain the "high" you had before. While I think the withdrawal debuff should occur after the the boost wears off, I think the withdraw effects should be different than what the booster effects similar to how the side effects are now. Otherwise i can see someone going out in a boosted armor tanker and then switching out to a buffer fit or something after the booster wears off and end up never having to face the negative effects or need to pop an extra booster to avoid them.


I've left off the exact buffs/debuffs on purpose, as which ones are paired with each other will take a lot of balancing/consideration for the very issue you're pointing out. That kind of stuff I'd leave for the devs if they end up picking this up, or something similar to it.

Originally by: Demond Zeld
Nice ideas, though I think it could also do with another mechanic linked to the amount in your system having an effect on the benefit of the booster, so the more you have in your system lessens the amount of benefit the booster gives, thus requiring the constant user to get stronger stuff to get the same hit.


I also like this idea. Would take a little more effort to create a system working on a curve as opposed to being linear though. Would create some very interesting situations on the market I think, making it easier for people selling the stuff to pick up on the heavy users, and places where they end up being more widely used could create some neat scarcity issues, forcing people to decide between buff amount and total cost.

Originally by: Hydraka
CCP respond dammit Evil or Very Mad


Don't worry, heh. I think they read more of these posts than they let on. Surely a post with over 300 reads at this point without a single person saying no has garnered a little bit of attention. You can never know what they're reading though, because there's never been a lot of blue in F&I... No one gets as much time on the forums as CCP Lurksalot Very Happy


 

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