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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:22:00 - [1]
 

Q: What do we do about all the Supercaps in the game? How can we encourage smaller fleets, and increase the need for cap fleets to bring ample sub-cap support? How ca we reasonably increase the diversity of tactics available to sub capital fleets without throwing off the arguably good sub-cap balance we have now?

Heavy Stealth Bomber
Heavy Assault Ship -> (Recon ->) Heavy Dictor -> Heavy Stealth Bomber

"This almost makes TOO much sense..." -Albert Einstein

Come on... you know this makes perfect sense and not there isn't a single reason this shouldn't be in the game... It's a natural evolution of what already exists. We have HACs that grew out of assault ships, from dictors came HICs, and from cov-ops came the recon. Now it's time for a Heavy Bomber to be fielded.

This ship would be based on the following principals:
  • Heavy Stealth Bombers can fit 3 Bomb Launchers or 2 Bomb Launchers and Cruise Missiles
  • These are obviously T2 Cruisers... but maybe they should be pirate T2 cruisers and require 2 racial cruiser skills to 5 in order to pilot
  • These things are SLOW. Slow in combat, slow to go to warp, and slow in warp (think freighter slow)
  • Have about the same tank as a HIC
  • Can warp cloaked... albeit slowly


So... why not? Is this much different than getting a couple of bombers together? Does anyone else think this is overdue? This thing would have a roll... particularly in roaming gangs (think bonus to fleet damage (especially against larger targets) at cost of collective fleet speed)... and the piracy application could breath new life into the fading art.

Looking for feedback or a better way to implement...

YARRRR!!

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:32:00 - [2]
 

My feedback is to use less colors.

Or preferably none.

Oberine Noriepa
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:35:00 - [3]
 

Aren't Black Ops ships being tweaked for the exact purpose of combating Super Capital ships?

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:36:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Oberine Noriepa
Aren't Black Ops ships being tweaked for the exact purpose of combating Super Capital ships?


That was an example thrown out from a CCP employee during the last alliance tournament.

I doubt that it's even close to being true.

Joe Risalo
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:36:00 - [5]
 

The reason why not is because bombs are quite powerful.

Just because you intend for the bombs to be used on super caps doesn't mean they won't be used on fleets of battleships.


The suggestion that others and I had was t2 teir 3 bs's with large smart bomb and weapon damage buffs, but also TERRIBLE tracking so that they can more or less only hit capitals.

The tech 2's would have slightly more mineral costs to put them in the 200-300 mil isk range so that they're not too expensive for pvp.

Oberine Noriepa
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:38:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Oberine Noriepa
Aren't Black Ops ships being tweaked for the exact purpose of combating Super Capital ships?


That was an example thrown out from a CCP employee during the last alliance tournament.

I doubt that it's even close to being true.

Ah. Too bad!

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:39:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
My feedback is to use less colors.
Or preferably none.

Hate the game not the player dog. Don't get your blandness on me 'neither, yo...
Originally by: Oberine Noriepa
Aren't Black Ops ships being tweaked for the exact purpose of combating Super Capital ships?

What does that have to do with this? There are a lot of uses for a cruiser sized bomber than attacking super caps... and really... would 2 or 3 stealth bombers pose a threat to a Supercarrier? I don't see what you are talking about...
Originally by: Joe Risalo
The reason why not is because bombs are quite powerful.

Just because you intend for the bombs to be used on super caps doesn't mean they won't be used on fleets of battleships.

The suggestion that others and I had was t2 teir 3 bs's with large smart bomb and weapon damage buffs, but also TERRIBLE tracking so that they can more or less only hit capitals.

The tech 2's would have slightly more mineral costs to put them in the 200-300 mil isk range so that they're not too expensive for pvp.

...again. What's the difference between a couple of cov ops and a cruiser that can fire off 2 bombs?

Joe Risalo
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:45:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Gogela
...again. What's the difference between a couple of cov ops and a cruiser that can fire off 2 bombs?


The difference is either 2 players have to control their bomb launches seperately, making it a bit more challenging to hit where you want both of them to be.

A ship with 2 launchers can drop 2 bombs right where you want them to be

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:56:00 - [9]
 

Inducing a new ship that isn't a capital/supercapital to effectively fight off super caps won't make much of a difference because that will be the primary targets of the support fleet blob just like dictors and due to the process and effort that goes into creating supers, it should be more than obvious why they are the best sov war machines.

P.S. if you want small fleet fights, join fw or some random lowsec pirating corp but EVE could use a new bombing class of ships.

Sun Beam
Posted - 2011.08.11 20:15:00 - [10]
 

Just make it a cruiser-sized SB with 2 more launcher hp, of course more slots, pg/cpu, and keep the one bomb launcher limit, but maybe give it a role bonus of 50% RoF for bombs...

My $.02

Dinta Zembo
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:31:00 - [11]
 

Come on, 3 bombs.. you'd need heavy bombs to go with a heavy stealth bomber because 3 bombs is probably the equivalent of 5 stealth bomber torpedo volleys.

And then people go mad because heavy stealth bombers & heavy bombs are push to win. Confused

Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Oberine Noriepa
Aren't Black Ops ships being tweaked for the exact purpose of combating Super Capital ships?


I Wish...

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.08.12 00:10:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Gogela
Q: What do we do about all the Supercaps in the game? How can we encourage smaller fleets, and increase the need for cap fleets to bring ample sub-cap support? How ca we reasonably increase the diversity of tactics available to sub capital fleets without throwing off the arguably good sub-cap balance we have now?


One option is to modify super caps, such that a super carrier pilot has to choose between DPS or logistics, and a titan can't hit anything smaller than a carrier with the doomsday weapon.

Oh, and remove EWAR immunity, make the time from logout to ship disappearing from space proportional to the mass of the ship, and simply disallow ships from disappearing if they are warp scrambled.

There is no need for a cruiser or battlecruiser sized bomber.

SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:27:00 - [14]
 

As it has been said many a time and been shot down just as many (I even suggested something similar once); the problem is that a bomb is the second most powerful weapon in EVE. The first are the Doomsdays of course. If you drop 3 bomb launchers onto a ship, then yes it would be just like having 3 seperate SB's on station doing their thing; but, then every Pirate player would just grab one of these and slaughter whole fleets in an instant.

A fleet of SB's is bad a** enough; can you imagine a fleet of SB's with three times the fire power?

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:47:00 - [15]
 

since you said a bombing hic that acts like a freighter....


you do know these would be a 200 mil suicide rides right. You decloak, drop bomb. You can't 180 at gtfo speed if pointed. If no point on you, your warp start will be god awful long (I fly charons on this char...I wnet cheap she don't have the webbing alt anymore and man do I miss it). Your bomb moves slow. Tick tick tick tick tick booooooom.


I'll be nice, you killed your target. You are also dead. Easy 190 mil fit I am guessing not looking at markets, probably more (my hic km's I got in 0.0....loved killing them things, nice isk efficiency fixers just can't recall exact isk value).


Want to suicide bomb 3 launchers of bombs...yuo can do this with 3 bombers with barebones fit less then 90 million easy. Bigger boom....6 bombers, double the damage for the same price if not less than a bombing hic. Warp them to a spotter, live the 2 seconds to drop da bomb...collect 11 virgins durka durka jihad style.

Richard Throatdeep
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:50:00 - [16]
 

instead of torpedo launchers it could mount station launchers. Cool

No really I'm kidding don't do that.

Necritis Terra
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:15:00 - [17]
 

Increasing a bomber to cruiser class and its subsequent ability to tank makes it a bigger threat. Increasing the bomb launcher rate of fire rather than increasing number of launchers negates the 'one-ship-uber-gank' by limiting one bomb at a time, but allow the heavy bomber to apply heavy damage to the intended targets, very slow to stationary targets ie: structures & caps (especially when sieged/triaged), or anyone afk YARRRR!!

If you can keep it to it's niche, then why not.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:33:00 - [18]
 

guys, its simple and i approve of most the ideas,
the ship should be cruiser sized but relatively the same thing as any other recon
can fit 1 Heavy bomb launcher and cruise missiles
heavy bombs vs a battlecruiser will be like using cruise missiles vs fast moving frigate, they will do lots less damage, this means the heavy bombs will only at all be useful vs battleship + targets. capital and supercapitals will be the primary target for heavy bombers, anything with a large sig radius would be killed, much like bombs now, but aimed for larger targets.. it could work.

heavy bombs would be great for
cruiser + targets with MWD
battleships in groups
caps and super caps


Jon Marburg
The Executioners
Capital.Punishment
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:26:00 - [19]
 

This idea of a heavy bomber seems like a potentially viable solution to the supercap problem, but before we start throwing new things into the mix other issues need to be corrected:

• Capital ships need to have significantly longer log timers
• Doomsdays should only be viable on capital class ships
• Dreadnoughts need to find there niche in fleet combat not just POS bashing.

Once these topics are addressed there may still be a call for a heavy bomber. If this is the case, I can see this being viable if based on the following principals:

• The training time needed from stealth bomber to heavy bomber must be significantly long (Bomb Deployment 5 + Capital Bombardment + Racial Cruiser + Recon Ships?)

• Bomb Explosion Radius needs to be set to around 10,000 m so that it is only effective for its designated purpose of combating supercapitals. Bombers are already highly effective against battleship blobs.

• The damage from said bomb should be high enough to discourage blobbed supercapitals. With the explosion radius of 10,000m the base damage at max skills could be set to 250,000 damage per bomb before resists and have it scale nicely down to battleships with it inflicting 50,000 damage against carriers and dreadnoughts and 12,500 damage against battleships. Meaning that it is only marginally better than a stealth bomber when set against non-capitals.

• The area of effect for these bombs could potentially be reduced.

• These ships should retain the hit-and-run tactics of stealth bombers. Given that they are significantly larger than stealth bombers they should be marginally easier to catch by watchful support ships.

• These ships should remain paper-thin as in line with all other stealth ships.

• They should only have a single bomb launcher. AoE effectively equals more lag so this should be minimized as much as possible.

• The launcher rate of fire should be no less than 2 minutes to minimize lag and to allow bombing runs to synchronize with stealth bombers.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.13 07:44:00 - [20]
 

also have heavy bombs move slower with the same range as normal bombs, the slower movement means frig-> cruisers can shoot the bombs and potentially kill them before hurting the greater fleet

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.08.13 12:20:00 - [21]
 

i dont know wtf was op smoking

bombs are not useful for roaming gang they dont give you dps they're spike damage for fleet ***gotry or cov ops insta gank.

what you look for in roaming gang is cerbs and tengus etc. which are effectively missile bombers pushing out dps from range.

that said effective heavy stealth bomber aka covert ops version of cerb/tengu with lots of dps would be probably just op, not to mention there's already too much covert ops cloak this and that bull****.

i find it funny that ppl daydream about covert op everything and next topic they make is nerf afk cloak WTF.







chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 20:57:00 - [22]
 

Does anyone here remember that episode of battlestar galactica where they sent Starbuck on that suicide mission in their new stealth fighter?  
She snuck in close and then attacked the resurrection ships FTL drive?  
I think they followed it up by jumping some of those little puddle jumpers in with Nukes and blew it to cylon heaven?  

Ok mayby I've got the wrong spaceship movie,  Im pretty sure I've watched them all and sometimes they all run together.  Anyway to the point.

Why not make a new stealth bomber from the dessy hull that has only 2 high slots.  
One for a covert ops cloak and one for a specialized anti super capital torpedo.  
It would have enough cargo for 1 additional torpedo, and could only hold One torpedo in the launcher.

The launcher would only be able to fire once every 15 minutes With heavy bombers specialization trained to lvl1,  and could be lowered down to every 10 minutes by lvl 5
Firing would take 3 seconds after hitting the fire button and would disable the cloak for the duration of the 10-15 minute reactivation timer. 
Additional consequences for using the weapon  Would be the inability to eject, jump, dock or store the ship.
This would Make it completely hunt-able for 10-15 minutes.

This would give any super caps surviving a first strike a very strong signal that it may be time to leave, if they didn't bring appropriate defenses, and give them enough time for their own doomsday devices to cool down and GTFO.  

If they are in a well trained and balanced fleet, the first strike would be completely ineffective and would result only in the wholesale slaughter of any heavy bomber squads foolish enough to try and engage. 
Any members who managed to fire and warp out would also be hunted down and eliminated.

The reasons given for all these disabilities will be conjured up in the following posts.




When the torpedo is Loaded it would drop the ships manuverability to that of an orca, but would still be able to reach the same cloaked speeds as the regular bomber, albeit more slowly.

After dropping it's payload it's maneuverability would return to the same as a destroyer. 
Which would be important because it's ability to drop and run would be it's only defence.

The torpedo itself would be unguided put, put, slow;
and would have to hit directly to cause it's terrible damage of (to throw a random number out there) 
200k damage to the target and 6k starting damage to everything within 15km. 
The 200k direct damage would be constant while the AOE secondary damage would be effected by the heavy bomber skill, and would have the same 5% per skill level damage increase as the normal bombs. 
Secondary AOE damage being the same as a regular bomber's AOE.

The heavy bomber would have no secondary weapons meaning it drops it's payload and runs before it blows itself up.
 
It wouldn't be able to land it's primary damage on anything smaller than a super capital ship. Only the secondary regular area of effect bomb damage would.  

This would make them even less of a threat to sub super capitals than regular bombers are now. 

Despite the devastating power of the anti capital torpedo it would still take a lot of them to take down a Titan or super carrier.  Requiring several waves. 

These would be the kind of ships carriers etc would carry in their maintenance arrays incase the occasion presented itself. 

They wouldn't even be able to (direct) hit pos due to their sig radius being less than that of a super.  Meaning a normal bomber is far better suited for POS bashing 

The primary (direct) damage would only detonate within a certain range of a suitable signature radius. 
"like hitting wombats". 
This would make hitting a moving super like trying to get the lucky shot into the death stars exhaust port.


chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 20:59:00 - [23]
 

The second post

I would make the torps have just enough flight time to fire within 6 Km's of the cap putting them in smartbomb range.

The stats, meds and lows would be the same as the thrasher 3 and 2 for shield tanks and for armor 1 med and 4 lows.  

(Note: ballistic control would only effect the AOE damage not the direct damage,  same as regular bombs.) 
this means that if a bomber chose gank over tank it would probably not survive if the cap has a smart bomb fitted.  
It also means that a super surrounded by ships equipped with smart bombs would have a pretty effective screen;
While an all capital fleet would have major holes in their defenses.
A properly tanked heavy bomber could possibly survive, launch and retreat but the gank boat would never withstand even light smartbombing long enough to launch it's torpedo.

By keeping the AOE damage the same as the typical damage a bomber fleet can put out in one organized bombing run,   and making the bombs hit points the same;  you would still only be able to launch 6 at a time with ought blowing the excess bombs. Meaning a single strike would be worth about  1,200,000 damage. 

That may sound like allot but imagine a typical battle with hundreds of pilots and many of them in capitals and super capitals on each side and imagine if one side had hired an all heavy bomber merc gang of 80 heavy bombers.  
As long as the cap fleet is flying in formation with smart bomb equipped ships or fast locking high tracking types,  or possibly even having their own bombers bombing them sporadically just to make sure.   Many of the bombers, and even the crawling slow bombs, would never reach their target. 
If there was an interdictor it could pop a bubble around the cap at the first sign of heavy bombers ensuring a higher casualty rate yet.  
Meaning most of them would not be comming home. 
And Many more would never get to fire their second torpedo.  

So while adding a new element of risk to flying supers solo it doesn't make them useless or too at risk as long as they are flying in a balanced fleet.  It does however discourage the use of an all caps fleet which would probably not be able to lock onto the bomber in time to defend itself.

Also since hitting a moving super would be extremely hard from the flanks it would force pilots to attack mainly from the front or rear of the super or force them to kamikaze by all approaching to 0 and launching at point blank range. 
Sequencing a kamikaze attack would probably catch some of them before they even hit the fire button making them ineffectual.

I would imagine in the heat of battle these things would die in droves and would quickly earn the name "suicide ride".

chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 21:04:00 - [24]
 

3rd post

Name: super nova Torpedo
Type:  anti super
Capital ship explosive torpedo

In The wreckage of a Gurista transport,  found by a Minmatar salvage ship,  was the scorched remains of a strange Jovian weapon.  

Upon entering empire space it was declared "contraband" by Concord and was quickly "confiscated". 

After being the victim of a huge thukker capital fleet,   and with increasing sansha nation incursions,  Concord had a vested interest in this weapons potential. 

Upon initial testing of concords new weapon,  made from reverse engineering the Jovian weapon;  
A Jovian warship appeared and demanded the return of the weapon,  all blueprints,  and all prototype's.  
Stating that the weapon would give concord Too much power over the empires they were sworn to Protect.

The lead scientist on the project,  a rebellious man named kito Jarek, had been fearful of Jovian interference all along,  he had already smuggled copies of the the blueprints to a station on the fringes of  empire space weeks before,  where he had them imprinted on the mind of a clone.  
He waited patiently for the Jovian's to leave;  And after a few weeks had passed,  snuck back to that station,  retrieved the blue prints and then mass mailed them to every media center in new Eden. 

The Jovian's never retaliated nor did they respond to the leak.  And a few short months later the heavy bomber was born.


Although it is not entirely understood how or why the torpedoes work,  It is clear that the torpedoes themselves are not explosive but are somehow charged with antimatter which is somehow wrapped in what appears  to be, 
"a tiny statically charged worm hole bubble" 
After the torpedo is launched from its launcher it splits apart exposing the package.
when the WH bubble touches a ships hull the bubble uniformly dematerializes itself and the hull transporting the matter into the center of it's own antimatter core and then pops due to it's charged nature.  
This creates a "shaped charge" of exploding antimatter which when fired through the resulting hole into the inside of a vessel causes catastrophic damage. 
 
The residual damage that is released outside the vessel is substantial as well,  and happens whether it makes contact with a ships hull or when the unstable wormhole casing destabilizes and collapses on the antimatter.  

Whether the casing "pops on the hull of a ship releasing most of it's destructive energy or collapses in on the antimatter absorbing some of it, it tends to release the same amount of AOE damage. From The antimatter annihilating the casing.

While the charged casing is seemingly attracted by both;  the gravitational fields super capitals are accompanied by, and the weak magnetic fields all ships emanate. 
The antimatter within seems to not only detect the presence of matter and gravity but also strives to avoid it.  
This problem is compounded by the fact that scientists can only get the torpedo to move up to 600 meters per second with ought it collapsing.

These things coupled together means the Gravity of the target has to be enough to overcome the antigravity of the antimatter to cause " casing adhesion"   

The torpedo will simply go around anything smaller and sometimes still manages to go around the super capital it's aimed at;
making it important for the pilot to line up their shot perfectly.

A test was conducted where a frigate flipped it's internal gravitational fields in an attempt to shove the bomb away,  But this instead made the ship attractive to the antimatter resulting in the only method of landing a direct hit against a sub super capital ship.

Another interesting thing about the torpedo is that it can be destabilized by firing enough mass or energy into the casing causing it to prematurely collapse.
  
Continued--->

chopper14
Posted - 2011.08.20 21:07:00 - [25]
 

4th post

One minmatar scientist was quoted saying 
" you have to remember, what we are working with is basically a scaled up version of what appears to be a  suicide bomb, the size and shape of a wrist watch, which seems to be designed to be activated inside the target not launched at it."


 

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