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Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:17:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
As far as ABCs in C1-3 wormholes is concerned, I say "show me the numbers".

If it turns out that, say, 35% of the ABC ores that are being mined come from W-space systems with hi-sec statics, then yeah there's some kind of a case to be made for a rebalance.

If it's more like 3.5%, then why waste time on it?



Taken from 4th Quarter QEN 2010-

Pop. Q32010 Pop. Q42010 Q3% of Q4 % of Total Change
High Sec 553502 611732 79.56% 79.61% 0.05%
Low sec 48346 51342 6.95% 6.68% -0.27%
Null sec 76999 86487 11.07% 11.26% 0.19%
WH Space 16846 18812 2.42% 2.45% 0.03%

Other than low sec which lost population, Wormhole space has the slowest population growth, and lowest population. If Wormholes are having that much of an affect on the economy don't you think CCP would have done something about it, or at least said something about it by now?

*this is dated information but I imagine it hasn't changed that much.*

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:23:00 - [242]
 

@ Meissa. You posts look on the surface to be well reasoned and articulate, but making assumptions and quoting them as reality is a desperate way of pressing a poor point. Your ignoring what real WH dwellers have stated in this thread, or argued against their knowledge and experience, with little or no evidence and facts from your end. You contradict your own statements, and not ones you can conveniently pin the ĎI meant under these circumstancesí, dependant on who youíve decided to quote and argue a point for/against

It really is a pity that self-interest and game-interest cannot be cleanly separated by people that are supposed to represent the players as a whole. And before I get the pot and kettle comment, Iíve yet to fire a mining laser in any wormhole as I use them for pew and PLEX. Iím started to be swayed more and more towards the mouth-foamers and their derision for the CSM based on this and other topics

Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:37:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Kristina Vanszar on 11/08/2011 10:37:05
Just loled....
WH dweller for almost a year, all i can say, if he thinks that W-space is secure, or at least more secure then 0.0 K-space.... please try it yourselfe...
ever got rap_ed by a bunch of dudes in cloaky dramiels? i don't think so.

Br,
coming in your hole since '07

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:45:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 11/08/2011 10:58:49

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
First of all, this is considered a side issue to the bigger issue, which is improving industrial aspects of 0.0, but since people are up in arms about it, it's worth discussing... Thanks for the replies...

The discussion came up while we were discussing this wider subject, and some CSM members did not know ABC could be mined in WHs. Just to make my stance clear[er], if the only thing that would be done is nerf ABC in WHs and leave 0.0 as it is, then I'd be against it because it's nigh impossible for "little" miners to get access to ABC in 0.0 as it is. However as part of a larger series of changes, I'm in favour of it.




Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


Originally by: Mutnin

but you CSM do not appear to have the slightest clue

I appreciate the arguments you give, but do not insult my intelligence. If I didn't know I'd shut up. Disagree on my points all you want, and in the case of debatable "projected outcomes", substantiate your counter-arguments all you want, but being of a different opinion than someone does not qualify them as being without a clue in and of itself. This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes me not post all that much here, the idea that if you think something different, you don't know ****...




You said right there, that m,any of the CSM had no clue there was ABC's in WH. You proved my point that the CSM in general have no clue what they are talking about. They are just giving a knee jerk reaction of "nerf bat" to information they had just found out and still have no understanding of.

Maybe you have a little more experience in WH's, but you still act as if everyone has a roqual which I'd be willing to bet just about most do not.

You do realize a large portion of high sec exits will only allow standard industrial through them meaning it would take "a lot" of trips to haul out any meaning full amount of un-refined ore.

Now lets just add one more thing that make WH's a bigger risk that null. "Everything" that you have in a WH is at risk of being lost. WH dwellers do not have stations to hide their assets in, this means if an invader decides to take over, everything they have in thew WH can be destroyed by attackers.

Meaning there is by far more risk involved in WH's and the only thing they have that might be easier is a few less jumps to move stuff in and out. However lets also remember null sec has jump bridges and can use jump freighters, which makes null sec logistics, more than easy enough.

So you add in the fact most care bear null systems, are dead end systems bubbled to hell and back with jump bridge access.. Well at that point there is really no argument about which is safer or easier to operate in or move stuff in and out.


Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:49:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

It will still be more convenient for "highsec" (/wormhole) miners to mine in wormholes than take the risk of setting up in 0.0 and provide services there.
So why would they?



Hang on, do you actually want to listen are are you just gonna keep talking ****?
Do you mine? If so, where do you mine? Unless you have experience of both, how bout listening and stop keeping your pre-formed ideas. You have the idea that WHs are less dangerous and more profitable to mine in than 0.0. Let's skip the danger part (cos tbh you're being utterly idiotic saying that 0.0 is more dangerous. I've been in both and the sheer amount of outposts and systems with 0 people in deepest deep blue space is amusing). Instead, let's look at the numbers part, focusing on C1-3 WHs, being aware that C4 can't have static HS, and if anyone is going to complain about random HS whs... get a life. The hauler will be a 38,664m^3 Occator, mass 19,500,000kg. Ore will be Arkonor (Full loads: 30,400 arkonor compressed, 2,416 arkonor uncompressed (Your 'Jita-Ninja' miner does it this way) and priced at 5,600 ISK/unit (will correct if someone gets me an accurate figure).

C1->HS
---No hulk/covetor support (20m kg limit), must be built inside the WH.
---1mil kg average mass total, 2 maybe 3 trips with the occator (assuming nothing else comes in)
---If Retriever, Occator and Drake enter, total mass 53.51m kg, they must all enter, then all exit or they will get trapped.

C2->HS
---Hulk/Covetor support (300m kg limit).
---2mil kg average mass total, 5 trips (in and out) with the occator (assuming nothing else comes in)
---If Retriever, Occator and Drake enter, total mass 53.51m kg, 3 maybe 4 loads of ore can be taken out in addition to entry and exit.

C3->HS
---Hulk/Covetor support (300m kg limit).
---5mil kg average mass total, 12 trips (in and out) with the occator (assuming nothing else comes in)
---If Retriever, Occator and Drake enter, total mass 53.51m kg, 9 maybe 10 loads of ore can be taken out in addition to entry and exit.

For every additional retriever, subtract 1 run of ore (utterly irrelevant since C1s would collapse without a haul).

For every additional Hulk, subtract 1 run of ore (40m Hulk, 19.5m Hauler, dynamic WHs mean worrying about 1mil difference is irrelevant).

From this it's pretty obvious that nothing of any value is going to come out of a 'Jita Ninja' C1, so scrap that.

A C2 based Jita Ninja could extract 7,248 arkonor, at a market value of 40,588,800 ISK. This would take a full skills hulk (1,880m3/minute, 117 ark/minute - again correct me if that figure is wrong) 1-1.2 hours to mine.

A C3 based Jita Ninja could extract 21,744 arkonor, at a market value of 121,766,400 ISK. This would take a full skills hulk (1,880m3/minute, 117 ark/minute) 3 hours to mine.

That's your figures on the practicalities of Jita-Ninja mining. For market impact, assume that 1/2 the Megacyte comes from Arkonor, that's 35,964 per C3, in a market of 10-15million/day (for this purpose we assume 7mil is arkonor, though it is probably an utter lowball), an C3 is an apparent 0.5% of the daily market. 70 C3 Static HS wormholes PER DAY would have to be farmed to make 35% of the daily yield. That's nuts. The respawn rate wouldn't allow it.

TLDR: Not a problem. Enjoy the numbers.

Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:51:00 - [246]
 

Just to make a comaprison:
W-Space Bill for a little bit safe system with 5 Moons:
5 x Factions Deathstars : 4 Bil each = 20 Billion
20 People with about 30 Ships aprox each 150 Mil = 90 Bil
In sum: 110 Billion in Assets
Belt spawn: once per week.

K-Space 0.0:
1 Station
Belt spwan: none 24/7 there.

Uhm where is the risk, who finds it gets a cookie!

grunf Ijonen
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:06:00 - [247]
 

well, mittani need his bots to make more money now that the russians are breathing him down the neck...

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:09:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 11/08/2011 11:11:26
Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
Just to make a comaprison:
W-Space Bill for a little bit safe system with 5 Moons:
5 x Factions Deathstars : 4 Bil each = 20 Billion
20 People with about 30 Ships aprox each 150 Mil = 90 Bil
In sum: 110 Billion in Assets
Belt spawn: once per week.

K-Space 0.0:
1 Station
Belt spwan: none 24/7 there.

Uhm where is the risk, who finds it gets a cookie!


You're not making your argument very convincing with fabricated information. What will these 4 faction deathstars be doing?

Originally by: grunf Ijonen
well, mittani need his bots to make more money now that the russians are breathing him down the neck...


It seems like you forgot to get the memo about us grinding our way through Fade and Pure Blind.

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:09:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Signal11th on 11/08/2011 11:10:02
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: NeoShocker
Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.


Sorry my peasant, but I absolutely agree with the CSM chairman and CCP's decisions.


Of course, the best part about this issue is that it wasn't one that was raised by 0.0 CSM reps, we adore you wh miners and your cheap minerals. Wink


The sad thing about the Goons is that they have become what they originally hated about the game and they don't even realise it.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:13:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Signal11th
The sad thing about the Goons is that they have become what they originally hated about the game and they don't even realise it.


I can only reassure you that we haven't become bad posters, nor have we become 'good' at eve online.

That'll do pubbie, that'll do.

Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:14:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Tomas Sean Connery on 11/08/2011 11:18:06
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

....if the only thing that would be done is nerf ABC in WHs and leave 0.0 as it is, then I'd be against it because it's nigh impossible for "little" miners to get access to ABC in 0.0 as it is. However as part of a larger series of changes, I'm in favour of it.....

... Removing ABC from the most easily accessible WHs could, in combination with other things....


That sounds more like a problem with mining in 0.0 than with Wormholes.
What other changes are you referring to?
Seems more like the "little" miners found access to ABC in Wormholes, and nerfing wormholes and these "larger series of changes" would force the "little" miners into 0.0.
So in the end if none of these larger changes happen you've basically stated that wormholes are fine as is, since it allows the "little" miners access to ABC ore.

Versuvius Marii
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:14:00 - [252]
 

Maybe next time out, someone will stand up for the high sec dwellers and get voted into power? Oh wait, is that a fast-moving Gallente ship with buffed hybrids?

Seriously, us guys living in high sec haven't got a leg to stand on. Letting so many 0.0 guys get into the CSM was nobody's fault but our own so cry about the Mittani all you want, he's clearly interested in preserving his space empire and if a nerf on WH gets Deklein warriors a bit more isk then he'll do it.
For the record, I voted for Mittani, but only because he seemed to be the only candidate that came across as competent at what he wanted to do.

A high-sec dweller getting into the CSM and being seriously noticed isn't going to happen. We have stuff to do other than sit on a forum hitting F5, like playing the game because we're not camped into a station or waiting for a fight. 0.0 players are also a lot more passionate about their gameplay, hence why so many of them even populate the forums in the first place.

tl:dr carebears stfu or get on the CSM yourselves next time.

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:15:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: Aedeal on 11/08/2011 11:18:25
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas

You're not making your argument very convincing with fabricated information. What will these 4 faction deathstars be doing?


Preventing this from happening when an attacker onlines a POS in your system

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:15:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Potato IQ
@ Meissa. You posts look on the surface to be well reasoned and articulate, but making assumptions and quoting them as reality is a desperate way of pressing a poor point. Your ignoring what real WH dwellers have stated in this thread, or argued against their knowledge and experience, with little or no evidence and facts from your end. You contradict your own statements, and not ones you can conveniently pin the ĎI meant under these circumstancesí, dependant on who youíve decided to quote and argue a point for/against

It really is a pity that self-interest and game-interest cannot be cleanly separated by people that are supposed to represent the players as a whole. And before I get the pot and kettle comment, Iíve yet to fire a mining laser in any wormhole as I use them for pew and PLEX. Iím started to be swayed more and more towards the mouth-foamers and their derision for the CSM based on this and other topics



I beg to disagree on the mentionned inconsistencies. If there's something where you think I claimed both something and its opposite, please point it out and I'll be very happy to clarify in such a manner there can be no doubt. It's all about context and details. Such as when it comes to the relative "danger" of WHs, it is both dangerous and safe, same for logistics, it is both hard and easy. All depends what you're talking about and compared to what.

I don't have much self-interest in this case. My alliance are PvPers, not industrialists, we don't hold sov and have no plans on doing so, we don't mine (well, I sometimes do but that's to make sure I stay sharp on what activities feel like as time goes by). In short I have no stake, my bulk of industrial activities are production/invention, and it's done in highsec or lowsec. I've been known to request nerfs on things I actually did (I flew Vagabonds and Falcons, I missioned in highsec and reprocessed my loot, etc.), whatever you may think I stand behind whatever will make the game as a whole better.

I don't disregard what other people say, the whole point of me participating in this thread is to engage in conversation and hear the substance of what people say, and give them an opportunity to get clarifications on my stance, since that's the one I've voiced to CCP. Not agreeing with someone does not mean I disregard their opinion, it's just that after taking their opinion, others, and mine into account, my conclusion may still doesn't align with theirs.

And a final caveat. When my opinion substantially differs from that of a significant segment of the population, and when it's a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact, when discussing the subject with CCP I've sometimes voiced the opinion contrary to mine as one that exists within the community, stated their reasons for believing what they believe, and explained my own beliefs and reasons to disagree so that CCP doesn't think my opinion is the only one that exists. That's obviously difficult for you to acertain, but I'm sure you can talk to former CSM members for them to confirm.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:15:00 - [255]
 

Lets not derail the topic with unpleasant mockery back and forth.
If there is an issue in the game, lets try to focus on it and come up with ways to solve it.
First off, identify what exactly the problem is.
Then aid in solving the problem.


Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:21:00 - [256]
 

lol wormholers are complaining that mining isn't profitable for them, wtf is this bull****

abc ores isn't in all 0.0 space and building up infractructure in otherwise barren systems has to have its bonuses, nobody's ****ing taking 0.0 space for the sake of doing it, beside that there's already enough safe money to be made in this game, if people want isk, they should team up, going solo to a c2 to mine alone in a hulk is bull****, find some friends already and make money in a c6 or 0.0, it's an mmo

Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:50:00 - [257]
 

Edited by: Tomas Sean Connery on 11/08/2011 11:52:39
Originally by: Taron Hakard
lol wormholers are complaining that mining isn't profitable for them, wtf is this bull****

abc ores isn't in all 0.0 space and building up infractructure in otherwise barren systems has to have its bonuses, nobody's ****ing taking 0.0 space for the sake of doing it, beside that there's already enough safe money to be made in this game, if people want isk, they should team up, going solo to a c2 to mine alone in a hulk is bull****, find some friends already and make money in a c6 or 0.0, it's an mmo


We are not complaining about wormhole profits, but rather the assumption that Wormholes are the cause of problems for null sec and the mineral market. C1-C2 wormholes aren't really worth it to solo mine (in fact solo mining with a hulk in any wormhole is stupid).
On my other account I live in a C2, but make my isk by killing sleepers in a neighboring C4. I'm in a corp that is dedicated to living in that wormhole. I'm not rolling in isk but I'm happy fighting sleepers with my friends and once in a while getting ore in the C4. Hell we don't even kill or mine anything in the C2 to draw the flys in from highsec (need my daily recommended allowance of pvp). Oh and yes all abc is found in some type of 0.0 space. Wormhole space is 0.0 as well as null sec.

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:04:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Signal11th
The sad thing about the Goons is that they have become what they originally hated about the game and they don't even realise it.


I can only reassure you that we haven't become bad posters, nor have we become 'good' at eve online.

That'll do pubbie, that'll do.


and with that post you just proved it...sad really.

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:42:00 - [259]
 

I have to agree that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I know because I thought the same thing. High end ores in empire Oh my!. So I actually tried to take advantage of that and it's not all it's cracked up to be.
First, lets talk about the crapshoot that is logistics. Every wh has a finite amount of mass it will allow through in either direction, in order to just pop into a class 1-4 wormhole and start mining you'd have to haul the ore back through the hole... You're best shot at this is an orca but you're talking about 120km3 max per trip at MAYBE 3-5 trips... this is NOTHING. You'd maybe get 20-30mil the whole op which you can make in a day doing pi in 0.0 or a few hours running missions. The smaller holes will crash quickly with a loaded orca going in and out of them and always there's the risk that the next trip through the hole will be your last and you'll get stuck waiting for another empire hole to pop up. I've had lots of times these land you in "island" space. Space surrounded by low-sec or null sec. OK so lets say your prepared for this and you decide to ride it out in the hole. Or better you have a place with a static empire out. That's all fine and dandy except that every time a new empire hole forms it's on the other side of the empire from the place you were and many times you have to go through some low-sec to get there. we're talking 60+ jumps. So each time you end up god-knows where.

Now lets factor in security risk. First, sleeper rats patrol the asteroid belts. So you'll probably need a dedicated ratter to deal with them, or lets say you tank up your hulk... now you can't cloak so you're a sitting duck if someone comes in hole.
You've got your directional scanner up but the wormhole is more than 14au away.... figures. You won't see cloakies come in. Even if you station a lookout there's no real security in that. Assuming they come in and cloak up, manage to find where you've been mining a patient hunter would wait it out. I know, that's how it usually happens. A scout comes in and gets excited and then all of his buddies come in. Now you have three problems. The first is that you can't mine while these people are harassing you. The second is that they've reduced the mass of the hole and likely significantly. The last is that unless your scouts sees every one of them leave you have to wait. They could have logged off, or your scout could have missed them leave, either way it probably won't be safe until you know. So you're stuck. You can leave or you can log and wait.

All things considered there are MUCH more lucrative activities in empire that require far fewer skills and exhibit FAR less risk.

Hastrin
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:55:00 - [260]
 

good discussion, i like it.

and though i disagree with meissa on every point she made, its good to see her get involved in this discussion.

I wont cover the income. it was already covered by Aedeal [url=http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1563748&page=9#245] here [/url] . and all i can say about it is that the amount of effort to mine the stuff, have a rorqual to compress it and the hauling with it makes it the worst income in a wormhole. ladar and sleepers are more income. As far as income is concerned, its not worth your time.

Security.

Wormholes move constantly, but this doesnt increase the security by much. it just means you cant find a specific hulk to shoot at. roaming wh gangs just scan statics and jump in the next wormhole and couldnt care less who they shoot. So the moving of the wormhole just means you get fresh targets every 16-48 hours.....or you are someones fresh target.

You don't have local, and this is the biggest thing. Ofcourse you can not activate your static, but this doesnt mean a lot. there are always wormholes leading to your wormhole. If you bubble or crit your static, people will still run through your wormhole. And you wont see them until they are on top of you waiting 1-2 seconds for their cloaking delay is gone. The idea that dscan saves you only works if you have a very bad combat scanner hunting you. A good combat scanner will stay out of dscan range, fling probes to 100 au above the system, then find exactly where you are, place probes, and get a 1st time 100% hit. This means the probes are visible for about 4 seconds. 30 seconds to combat probe? right.

Running into a wh to ninja mine quickly. Nice idea, but unrealistic. The random wormholes from highsec to WH arent very common. The highsec statics are, but you need someone on the other side to open that up before you can find it. So its a system already scouted, and with lower classes most probebly occupied.

If its occupied, you can be pretty sure the residents have a system of sharing bookmarks. So there is no time needed to scan or find you, they know you are there, and also know where the sites are. again, no warning until they decloak on top of you. Not to mention the bubbles that are put up the second they see some happy ninja miners in the system.

The safety.....live a lot in 0space? carriers are very good ships to have. but if a good group of people want your wormhole and want to attack you (a rorqual is usually a good reason to attack a wh), theyll take it. Crit the wormholes, keep scanners on at all times, dont allow reinforcements, collapse the wh every hour, you cant defend wh space from a dedicated group.

Then to finish. Ross "White Tree" McDermott had a column on TTH, talking about the CSM actions and involvement in the monoclegate.

Originally by: Ross "White Tree" McDermott
Put very simply, the CSM operates as a group which lobbys for changes to the game ideally based upon the collective desires of the community.


now, the reason why i do vote for the CSM is because i thought this was how the CSM worked. So how come we have a chairman on the CSM that posted on these forums that that is totally wrong and he just fights for his voters.....so much for collective desire of the community

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:02:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


I beg to disagree on the mentionned inconsistencies. If there's something where you think I claimed both something and its opposite, please point it out and I'll be very happy to clarify in such a manner there can be no doubt. It's all about context and details. Such as when it comes to the relative "danger" of WHs, it is both dangerous and safe, same for logistics, it is both hard and easy. All depends what you're talking about and compared to what.

I don't have much self-interest in this case. My alliance are PvPers, not industrialists, we don't hold sov and have no plans on doing so, we don't mine (well, I sometimes do but that's to make sure I stay sharp on what activities feel like as time goes by). In short I have no stake, my bulk of industrial activities are production/invention, and it's done in highsec or lowsec. I've been known to request nerfs on things I actually did (I flew Vagabonds and Falcons, I missioned in highsec and reprocessed my loot, etc.), whatever you may think I stand behind whatever will make the game as a whole better.

I don't disregard what other people say, the whole point of me participating in this thread is to engage in conversation and hear the substance of what people say, and give them an opportunity to get clarifications on my stance, since that's the one I've voiced to CCP. Not agreeing with someone does not mean I disregard their opinion, it's just that after taking their opinion, others, and mine into account, my conclusion may still doesn't align with theirs.

And a final caveat. When my opinion substantially differs from that of a significant segment of the population, and when it's a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact, when discussing the subject with CCP I've sometimes voiced the opinion contrary to mine as one that exists within the community, stated their reasons for believing what they believe, and explained my own beliefs and reasons to disagree so that CCP doesn't think my opinion is the only one that exists. That's obviously difficult for you to acertain, but I'm sure you can talk to former CSM members for them to confirm.


All that said, this (all respect intended) one of the times you should take the side of the wormholers. I've made multiple attempts to live in class 1-4 whs and living ain't easy. Hence, I'm back in 0.0 where joining an established alliance makes any industry activity easy cake. The only reason wormholes are even used is because they offer a spit of 0.0 small enough to be run by 5-10 people and not an alliance blob. It's the only place where small gang warfare is still alive and a force to be reckoned with. A place where casual players who can't be on 23/7 can play at a pace suites their rl time. Taking out ABCs would only make whs LESS attractive than they already are. And believe me, after working in them extensively I can tell you they're pretty freaking boring when you've ate up all your spawns and have to wait a few days to have anything to do. Even at the alternative (using a wormhole for a day) is a HUGE pain in the ass as there is no guarantee that you'll even find one near home and loading/fitting up to take advantage of it is no easy task. Ultimately, that kind of wh lifestyle is best for noob play. A little mountain they can tackle that takes away from the drone of empire life. It's not all that lucrative, it's risky, and it's a logistic nightmare. But it's a challenge so some still choose to do it. If anything whs need to be un-nerfed. But imho, they're great the way they are. In fact they should try to encourage more noobs to take advantage of them. That kind of dynamic gameplay is always a blast for a noob.

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:07:00 - [262]
 

Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 11/08/2011 13:19:12
Originally by: Aedeal
Edited by: Aedeal on 11/08/2011 11:18:25
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas

You're not making your argument very convincing with fabricated information. What will these 4 faction deathstars be doing?


Preventing this from happening when an attacker onlines a POS in your system


If you set up a pos in a wh, it's not uncommon for an "attacker" to take a bit of time to set up a gang to try to hi-jack the hole. I know because I've done it. There was a time I played in a corp that I convinced to jump into populated wormholes and just grief the people living there until they paid us a ransom to leave. Didn't work out very well from a corp level because... as I've said over and over... whs aren't lucrative enough to afford a decent ransom now and again. So often times the only people paying ransoms were the individual wholers. The corp was just as well off just letting you blow up the pos. So they generally took their chances moving out. Obviously, that didn't stop us. We'd still do it, and at first we were dedicated enough to bring in battleships and take out poses. You'd use sbs and bombs to bomb a few guns away then use rr battleships to eat through the remainder of the defenses. It took a long time but that was always to our advantage. It kept our members interested enough to stick around till the targets logged on or got antsy. Another benefit to the amount of time it took was a kind of like torture for the target. They'd see their stuff slowly get munched on by the attacker so they'd have time to brew about what they were going to do. They'd go through the psychological phases of loss and trauma and lots of them would finally cave and pay a ransom to get their stuff out of the hole.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:10:00 - [263]
 

There's a lot of lies floating around here.

Mining in Null... claims it doesn't happen? Maybe not by breathing people... it's too hard to compete with the null-bot mining fleets feeding not only their super caps but pouring minerals into Jita.

Mining in wormholes... anyone in holes that's doing production, even with full mining going on, is still a net importer of minerals. The amounts we get in holes are not even close enough to maintain any decent levels of production. I haven't seen a grav in two weeks... as a result we need to import minerals to maintain production levels.

Mining in C1/C2 holes... most are occupied. People live there. Likely they have gravs already bookmarked (unless newly spawned). If someone tries to come in and mine, they'll be seen and eliminated. So far, to date, I've yet to see of or hear of one single person trying to mine in our hole that wasn't one of us. It simply hasn't happened yet. When I see mining ops in holes we openour static into, they're all working from local POS's with manufacturing arrays set up.

If anything, we need more minerals available in holes, not less. If you want to take away ABC from holes, allow Sleepers to drop drone compounds or the like to boost the much needed and far too small supply currently available of ALL minerals, not jus tthe high end ones.

Obax Bannon
Caldari
Fidelis Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:14:00 - [264]
 

I have briefly looked through the thread and posts here and no-one seems to have posted about the fact that wormholes were primarily created for T3 production and researching the artifacts etc.
Everything we need is in the wormhole to research/create T3 hulls and T3 subsystems.
All of the different sites in there provide a part of whats needed.
For this we need the ores for things like reactions etc to be able to get the polymers needed.
Without those things then we have to transport it out or into the hole to be be able to continue the production.
Hence all T3 hulls and subsystems start going up in price...i am sure all of the 0.0 people will be first to complain when Tengu hulls start hitting 500 mill + because of wormholes being nerfed.

Quite frankly I find the CSM quite laughable...squabbling fools voted in on a popularity contest with nothing but their own 0.0 interests at heart.

From living in 0.0 for around 2 years and the last year or so in wormholes I think that the whole concept of WH space is one of the things that CCP has actually got totally right.

No need to nerf it at all.

Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:17:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Kristina Vanszar on 11/08/2011 13:18:14
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 11/08/2011 11:11:26
Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
Just to make a comaprison:
W-Space Bill for a little bit safe system with 5 Moons:
5 x Factions Deathstars : 4 Bil each = 20 Billion
20 People with about 30 Ships aprox each 150 Mil = 90 Bil
In sum: 110 Billion in Assets
Belt spawn: once per week.

K-Space 0.0:
1 Station
Belt spwan: none 24/7 there.

Uhm where is the risk, who finds it gets a cookie!


You're not making your argument very convincing with fabricated information. What will these 4 faction deathstars be doing?

Originally by: grunf Ijonen
well, mittani need his bots to make more money now that the russians are breathing him down the neck...


It seems like you forgot to get the memo about us grinding our way through Fade and Pure Blind.


They'll make sure that not every dic*khead is able to invade the hole. (EDIT: in a C5 that is)
The point is that Roid Belts are not there 24/7 in W-Space, they spawn once a week.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:17:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Mara Rinn
When there are no reports of reds on your intel channels, mine from the local belts


You've never actually been to nullsec, have you?


I've lived in null sec. What about you?

I assure you that you either get reports of reds, or you learn when intel is too quiet. Failing that, there's your two alts parked in the systems adjacent to the one you're mining in.

Well, there's always Goon space where folks will purposefully fail to report red gangs because they have a grievance with the folks next door ('he got on too many killmails, that corp deserves to lose a ship'). And when they're not failing to report red squads they'll be awoxing. Goons have defecated in their own cereal, now they're looking to blame everyone else for their problems.

In unknown space on the other hand you get no intel. Camping the wormholes and watching who comes and goes is nonsensical since the act of warping to the wormhole means the other side becomes a K162 which is easier to probe down, which more or less guarantees that someone will pop through shortly. The PvPers will be looking for K162 since that guarantees that there is someone on the other side.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:27:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 11/08/2011 11:11:26
Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
Just to make a comaprison:

Belt spawn: once per week.

K-Space 0.0:
1 Station
Belt spwan: none 24/7 there.

Uhm where is the risk, who finds it gets a cookie!


The point is still valid.
Amount of ore that can be pulled from a single upgraded 0.0 is unlimited.

Worm Holes have a set limit of how much can be spawned per week.
There reward is rare minerals but only so much and it can't be changed.

Wormholes can not compete against 0.0 for minerals.
And there is a valid risk there to merit the reward.



Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:36:00 - [268]
 

Major flaw with Meissa's argument...

Nerfing wormholes will not provoke resident of wormholes to go to null for their mining ops. People don't live in wormholes for mining, period. You can go far too long without a grav spawning, and everything else in wormholes provides better isk. Mining in wormholes, including the ABC we have available, is supplimental to our production. Yes, there will be those that don't do production and once in a while have ore/minerals to move to high sec for sale, but that's only supplimental income, not even close to their main income supply.

As a poster mentioned above, most brilliantly, nerfing holes will have only one effect... your T3 products will go up in price. Mining won't increase in null... no one will give up their hole to become a lowly null-bunny.

Wormholes are the last frontiers in Eve. There's a reason they're populated by the people that live there. It's the difference between living in the NYC mafia organizations to that of living in the wild west of old.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:47:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Major flaw with Meissa's argument...

Nerfing wormholes will not provoke resident of wormholes to go to null for their mining ops. People don't live in wormholes for mining, period. You can go far too long without a grav spawning, and everything else in wormholes provides better isk. Mining in wormholes, including the ABC we have available, is supplimental to our production. Yes, there will be those that don't do production and once in a while have ore/minerals to move to high sec for sale, but that's only supplimental income, not even close to their main income supply.

As a poster mentioned above, most brilliantly, nerfing holes will have only one effect... your T3 products will go up in price. Mining won't increase in null... no one will give up their hole to become a lowly null-bunny.

Wormholes are the last frontiers in Eve. There's a reason they're populated by the people that live there. It's the difference between living in the NYC mafia organizations to that of living in the wild west of old.


Your assumption is that, other than ABC distribution, all things would stay equal, that's a false assumption.

And that's the reason I ask people here what they'd like in 0.0, especially those who would like to go there but don't because of <X>.
If the reason not to move is "because it's more profitable and safer and better in WHs", then that entirely makes my point.

Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:49:00 - [270]
 

The reason why i am in W-Space rather then in 0.0
i don't like lagfests, and i don'št like blobs, and i don't like politics.

I like the "we are, faster, smarter, and cloakier then you so we win" fact of W-Space. that's all.
And i hate the my feelt is X Times blobbier then yours so i win aspect of 0.0


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