open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked CSM Leader Mittani not having a clue
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 ... : last (16)

Author Topic

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:43:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Stella SGP


Actually, besides nerfing WH ore, there is another alternative to encourage mining in null, but I suspect you won't like it. Anyway I've highlighted what might be the problem for you.

Possible solution? Nerf ratting bounties! Surprised


Yes, clearly nerfing rat bounties so ratting is even more inferior to L4s in yet another way is the solution. Praise Jesus.

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:47:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Stella SGP


Actually, besides nerfing WH ore, there is another alternative to encourage mining in null, but I suspect you won't like it. Anyway I've highlighted what might be the problem for you.

Possible solution? Nerf ratting bounties! Surprised


Yes, clearly nerfing rat bounties so ratting is even more inferior to L4s in yet another way is the solution. Praise Jesus.


It is a possible alternative to get you off your one tracked mind.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:53:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya

Yes, clearly nerfing rat bounties so ratting is even more inferior to L4s in yet another way is the solution. Praise Jesus.


Well, npc bounties in general need to be looked at, not just ratting. There is simply too much ISK entering the game via bounties at this point.

Removing the bounties completely in favour of tags that have to be turned in at a considerable distance is what is needed, and there also needs to be a saturation effect for npc buy orders on them.

You wont like it, you'll most likely oppose it violently, but you'll adapt in the end and embrace the change.

Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:55:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Hroya
If you love them ( sarcasticly ), why change them ?


So we get more threads like this.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.08.11 07:39:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk killing Sleepers for every 1 isk mining, you just kill Sleepers instead of mining.



Fixed

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.11 07:49:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Tomas Sean Connery
Wormholes- Time limits, Mass and Jump limits
*Hulk has a Mass of 40,000,00kg, Retriever is 20,000,000kg


max jump mass is the same as a retriever, so you can't bring an hulk unless you put it inside something first, and once is inside, it can't go outside, so you just lost an hulk. Ores in a C1, while there are ABC there, the ammounts and spawn rates of the sites are quite spaced between. I don't think it can pay up the technical loss of a hulk, and even if you bring a POS and put up a refinery you're looking at a 25% loss on refined stuffs, even with max skills.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:11:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
You have... an inability to figure out how to successfully mine a wormhole.


Please, honourable Kamiya-san, explain to us how to successfully export minerals from unknown space!

I know you'll be able to provide the details that I am missing here:

  1. Establish a POS

  2. Set up a POS refinery

  3. When there are no anomalies or combat sites, and no open wormholes, and no wormholes likely to link our space to a "more dangerous" space, get the hulk out and mine, while keeping an eye on all signatures with the probing alt

  4. Store ore in the hangar array until there is enough to make it worth running the refinery

  5. Every now and then, online the refinery, run batch of minerals through the refinery to get 25% losses, then offline the refinery, and remember that it takes two hours to complete the process

  6. Pack your Orca full of minerals

  7. Ship minerals to nearest station neighbouring your exit wormhole

  8. Either sell your minerals in this market for whatever price you can get for them, or ship that orca-load of minerals to Jita



Let's contrast this to the process of mining in null sec:

  1. When there are no reports of reds on your intel channels, mine from the local belts

  2. Periodically refine your minerals, noting that you can refine any quantity you want, when you want, and you get the minerals back immediately

  3. Every now and then run a manufacturing job to perform some basic mineral compression (often you will use Tritanium that you imported in order to perform mineral compression on your high end minerals)

  4. Stuff a jump freighter full of the modules you manufactured

  5. Jump to Nalvula, transit to Jita via Vuorrassi



Note that a jump freighter has a far higher capacity than an Orca when it comes to shipping goods around, and you don't have to worry about the gates closing behind you. Thus the process of shipping the produce to market is much easier for folks in null sec than those living in unknown space.

Once you can get some numbers about the quantity of minerals in hisec that were mined in unknown space, you might have some idea of just how unattractive these alliances have made life for industrialists.

Nerfing the availability of ABC in unknown space is not going to boost null sec industry. This approach will simply make some w-space dwellers much richer since the ABC that they have in their safe class 6 systems will earn them much more than it does right now.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:35:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
When there are no reports of reds on your intel channels, mine from the local belts


You've never actually been to nullsec, have you?

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:35:00 - [219]
 

First of all, this is considered a side issue to the bigger issue, which is improving industrial aspects of 0.0, but since people are up in arms about it, it's worth discussing... Thanks for the replies...

The discussion came up while we were discussing this wider subject, and some CSM members did not know ABC could be mined in WHs. Just to make my stance clear[er], if the only thing that would be done is nerf ABC in WHs and leave 0.0 as it is, then I'd be against it because it's nigh impossible for "little" miners to get access to ABC in 0.0 as it is. However as part of a larger series of changes, I'm in favour of it.

I don't disagree that mining in WH poses a security risk. I however think that mining in 0.0 poses one too. The risk can be mitigated in both locations.
Also, moving ABC from WHs to highsec is easier in WHs than in 0.0, except if you're part of a big 0.0 alliance.

Now, to your comments...

@Kotami: Removing ABC from the most easily accessible WHs could, in combination with other things, improve the desirability to mine in 0.0. Saying that a plentiful source close from highsec does not provide a deterrent to moving and getting it in 0.0 is, to take your adjective, absurd.

I agree with the rest of your point with regards to making 0.0 more appealing to smaller alliances and corps.

Originally by: Potato IQ

Sorry Meissa, but saying that mining in WHs is easy and convenient suggests a complete lack of understanding of WH life by you and your chair


It's easier and more convenient than 0.0 for the miners who are not in large 0.0 blocs is what I said.
Also, you grossly overestimate the odds of dying while mining in WH, especially if you're not alone.

Originally by: LittleTerror

Jita isn't really a problem in all this.


The ease with which it is to get cheap stuff from Jita prevents people from setting up shop in 0.0 effectively. If only because the materials necessary to build things are seldom present locally in any significant quantity.

Originally by: M'ktakh
If logistics is the core of the problem (and you seem to say so), then lets concentrate on that alone, and leave this pitiful power-playing of WH nerfing out.

The proximity of low-class WHs from highsec is what makes it easy to move stuff from W-space to K-space, nerfing logistics in 0.0 will not make mining in 0.0 any more desirable.

@Grey Stormshadow: thanks, that's along the same lines as my current thoughts.

@Selinate: see post #83 right above yours, he seems to be doing pretty well.

Originally by: Spacing Cowboy

- Grav icefields --> Why not
- Super veldspar ( we need a viable way to get lowends ) --> Absolutely
- Weapon to track down and destroy cloakers --> Nope
- Better base refine from pos-modules --> Yes and no, but agreed the equilibrium needs to be changed.
- Faster grav cycle time ( once it compremised you have to wait for 3 days now ) --> Will have to check on that one.
- Better options to tank a barge without spending piles on KM-lol mods. --> Depends, they may be a bit too much on the fragile side.



Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I *do* have a couple bones to pick with Meissa
Go on, I wouldn't post if I wasn't willing to talk and potentially be shown wrong, Just accept that I'll just defend my current (thought out) position until it becomes obvious it's not correct, if that's the case.

Also, I agree with your statement about 0.0 current population/mindset being a problem to industrialists moving there.

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I was under the impression that with industry upgrades they *could* have it. Am I wrong?

You're not, getting it to a significant level is not done all over the place however. And all non-sov 0.0 doesn't get it (NPC 0.0)

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:37:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya

Yes, clearly nerfing rat bounties so ratting is even more inferior to L4s in yet another way is the solution. Praise Jesus.


Well, npc bounties in general need to be looked at, not just ratting. There is simply too much ISK entering the game via bounties at this point.

Removing the bounties completely in favour of tags that have to be turned in at a considerable distance is what is needed, and there also needs to be a saturation effect for npc buy orders on them.

You wont like it, you'll most likely oppose it violently, but you'll adapt in the end and embrace the change.


Missions dump more free isk into the economy than rat bounties. Are you suggesting that all income be nerfed? Or just 0.0 income (which is already inferior to missions)?

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:51:00 - [221]
 

A while ago a request was made on the forums aimed at CCP to implement bounties on a particular type of npc.
Prior, during and after this request no bounties were added.
How exactly, if you have an over abundance of minerals, do you make any isk from npc's without bounties ?

What will you do with the ore you mine in null ? Hand over a fixed % to the station owner for use of the refinery, or would you compress the ores and make use of your local bridge and move it to empire to make full pay ?

@meissa.


If the availabillity of the resources in empire breaks the local industry in null, then why dont you cut off the accessabillity instead of going on a crusade to remove something from an area that is also available, and accessable in null sec.

People should go to null sec to carve their own empires, not to hang on a lifeline from their roots to keep them afloat.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:54:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya

Missions dump more free isk into the economy than rat bounties. Are you suggesting that all income be nerfed? Or just 0.0 income (which is already inferior to missions)?


I'm not sure this is true; the LP store is a huge ISK sink, and soaks up a good percentage of the ISK produced by mission rewards and mission rat bounties. Not to mention the fraction of missions that have faction rats; some tags are turned in for ISK, others are also consumed by the LP store. A mission like Enemies Abound is probably a net ISK sink.

Ratting/anom farming, by contrast, is almost purely an ISK fountain.

Tub Chil
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:55:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Tub Chil on 11/08/2011 08:57:17
Mittani has no clue about this one. I'll try to explain:

1) Deep nullsec is the safest place in the game to live. if you are competent, if you use scout to move your plexing/mining ship around, you'll never ever lose anything. dangerous space? seriously? with local, bubles on gate and coalition wide intel channels? yeah scary.

2) C1/C2 holes are waaaay more dangerous than c5/c6. to get to c6 you need to travel several jumps through unknown space, scanning your way in, so there are much less random travelers than c1. game mechanics are same in every hole, no matter of class, bubbles, bombs and other candies are allowed everywhere. c1 and c2 holes get static exit to hi or lowsec, they are easy to get in, so there is much more PVP there.

dangerous places to carebear in, are lowsec and lower class wormholes. everything else is a napfest with happy bears grinding their billions

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:59:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Hroya
People should go to null sec to carve their own empires, not to hang on a lifeline from their roots to keep them afloat.


Nullsec is mathematically unsustainable. There do not exist sufficient resources, be they minerals, or more often, industry slots, in order to sustain themselves. Until you correct that design issue, you can't make any changes at all to logistics without irreparably breaking things.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:01:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Hroya
@meissa.


If the availabillity of the resources in empire breaks the local industry in null, then why dont you cut off the accessabillity instead of going on a crusade to remove something from an area that is also available, and accessable in null sec.

People should go to null sec to carve their own empires, not to hang on a lifeline from their roots to keep them afloat.




It is currently not possible to locally produce enough goods to sustain 0.0 players at the current densities. Nullsec industry would need a massive buff. This is the flip side of the "easy logistics from Jita" coin.

This situation is also why most nullsec alliances aren't very accomodating to industrialists. Why should they be? It has been shown over and over again that it is far simpler just to import what you need from hi-sec rather than have a huge, vulnerable industrial operation based in 0.0. Why make any concessions to local industrialists when you could recruit more PvPers instead?

Until the capacity of nullsec industry is improved (A LOT!), the question is moot. Until the comparative efficiency of 0.0 industrial activity is improved sufficiently to counter the 2 huge subsidies that hi-sec industrialists get (Free CONCORD protection, thousands of free stations that don't need defending), the question will remain moot.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:03:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
One of the things the CSM/CCP is going to have to look at in all this (if they want to "encourage" more industry/farms/fields in Null sec) is that people who build/mine/industry (as a total group - individuals may be different) will want to build/mine/invent/sell in safety.

Depends. While generally true sometimes some extra level of risk is acceptable if it can be managed and is accompanied by greater profits.
People show this all the time, by mining in WHs for instance, there's more risk, but more rewards, so you do it.

Originally by: Windjammer

The notes from that meeting indicate surprise on the part of those members of the CSM not familiar with WHs that ABCs could be found there. This surprise indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the amounts of ore and the conditions under which the ore is extracted as well as the impact to the EVE ore economy. Those notes also indicate a leap to conclusions which are contested by those members of the CSM who are familiar with WHs.


That is mostly accurate except for the last bit. The conclusion was that, if the proposed changes to industry in 0.0 make it through, keeping ABCs in WHs would be detrimental and unjustified. On its own removing ABC from C1->C4 would accomplish nothing except nerf non-powerbloc miners, since those would then have no access to ABC.

Originally by: Mutnin

I can tell you for 100% that the one with the high sec static was far more traveled & dangerous. I ran very few sites, because I used them for PVP, but I can say that once the high sec exit was opened I would easily get 10-15 visitors inside the life span of that static.

WH's didn't do **** to the value of ABC's it was the drone lands & lvl 4's that killed miners profits.

Oh and lets not forget WHer's have to refine in a POS..


Thanks for the answers...

You can put your own static highsec exits on the brink of collapse as soon as they appear to prevent people from coming through and be safe[r].

Drone alloys constitute indeed a significant share of the devaluation of minerals. they don't have bounties however, and that balance is looked into.

WHers do not have to refine at a POS, they can compress using a rorq and ship (you can refine at a POS, but you lose out).

Originally by: Mutnin

but you CSM do not appear to have the slightest clue

I appreciate the arguments you give, but do not insult my intelligence. If I didn't know I'd shut up. Disagree on my points all you want, and in the case of debatable "projected outcomes", substantiate your counter-arguments all you want, but being of a different opinion than someone does not qualify them as being without a clue in and of itself. This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes me not post all that much here, the idea that if you think something different, you don't know ****...

Originally by: Mara Rinn

There is a huge difference between "mined ABC in a wormhole" and "sold ABC in Jita".


ABC that is mined in WH, even if not sold in Jita, equates high-end minerals not purchased on the market and therefore contributes to the devaluation of them. Doesn't matter whether you use it locally or not.

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris

The vast majority of people who mine in wormholes are not going to suddenly start mining in 0.0 if you take their ABC minerals away


Absolutely, if that is the only thing done. Hence why I said I'd be in support of nerfing ABC in wormholes only as a part of a larger set of changes.


Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:08:00 - [227]
 

Random things from different people:
For people complaining about WH security in general, I don't know about you but I've seen quite a few carriers/rorqs defending miners in C1s and C2s. Sure the lone miner without corpmates get ganked (but not nearly quite as much as people claim), but the people who prepare for mining in WHs have little issues defending themselves.

Local channel as a form of intel is going to change in 0.0/lowsec/highsec. The CSM hasn't yet been informed of the current plans from CCP, but we have given proactive feedback.

I'm not against life in Wormhole, I'm actually quite in favour of it, and have been pushing constantly for improvements to WH life (the 2 major ones being in the form of the annoyances associated with living at a POS and bookmark management, but there are others). When facing conflicting objectives, one has to look at the bigger picture and determine what's best for the game as a whole.

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Hroya
@meissa.


If the availabillity of the resources in empire breaks the local industry in null, then why dont you cut off the accessabillity instead of going on a crusade to remove something from an area that is also available, and accessable in null sec.

People should go to null sec to carve their own empires, not to hang on a lifeline from their roots to keep them afloat.




It is currently not possible to locally produce enough goods to sustain 0.0 players at the current densities. Nullsec industry would need a massive buff. This is the flip side of the "easy logistics from Jita" coin.

This situation is also why most nullsec alliances aren't very accomodating to industrialists. Why should they be? It has been shown over and over again that it is far simpler just to import what you need from hi-sec rather than have a huge, vulnerable industrial operation based in 0.0. Why make any concessions to local industrialists when you could recruit more PvPers instead?

Until the capacity of nullsec industry is improved (A LOT!), the question is moot. Until the comparative efficiency of 0.0 industrial activity is improved sufficiently to counter the 2 huge subsidies that hi-sec industrialists get (Free CONCORD protection, thousands of free stations that don't need defending), the question will remain moot.


I agree here...

Nullsec industry needs a massive massive boost...

My current priorities from the top of my head:
- denser low-ends
- much much more production/invention/copying/ME/PE slots in outposts
- refactoring of the EAA/SAA to make them useable.
- Accessibility of labs remotely in a more manageable way.
- risk mitigation mechanics for some of the activities (mining)

And you are right in this that with the "Jita Problem" there's absolutely no need for existing 0.0 entities to accomodate the needs of industrialists. That needs to be changed, obviously.

And your conclusions are in line with mine...

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:18:00 - [228]
 

So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?

So, change null sec then. Buff it sufficiently to make it viable to have an industry.
>But< once that is settled in, cut the ties with empire.



Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:20:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Hroya
So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?



It is entirely possible, and likely, that both things are a problem.

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:27:00 - [230]
 

If you have a way in to the WH from HS, you have a way for PvPers to get in. You can't tell when they do (you can put a scout on the hole, but new holes may appear). How'd your miners feel if you removed local from Nullsec? That's how the WHers mine. And TBH, if it was worth mining ABCs in C5/C6 static C5/6, it'd be really damn easy to ship the stuff out, just need a little effort to roll the WH. And you could actually move it out at a decent rate too. The whole 'OMG a hole near jita you can ship it all out' is utterly irrelevant. That hole will collapse before you get anything like a sizeable amount out of it, even compressed.

Also, the very idea that some guy can 'find a WH close to Jita and just jump in' is purely wrong. First you gotta find it, you then have to hope it's unoccupied, then you gotta scout out every sig, cos you dunno which is a WH, you then have to get a 2nd person (only a ****** goes to a WH without a scanner) to bring a combat ship, sure a drake will do some, but the ABCs at those sites are pathetic. He then cleans house, then salvage the wrecks (You'll probably make more here than you would mining) *then* comes the Hulk (if they will even fit of course, else you use covetors). Course, the rats don't respawn (that'd be too much of an ISK print), but you don't have local, so all the while you're mashing your d-scan. Forget to mash it at least once over 30 seconds (not joking here, you can scan a hulk out in that time, real pros do it in under) and you've got a good chance of being killed. You then need to haul the ore out. That means ideally a DST (max capacity vs mass). You can either pull the hulk/covetor out and get the DST in and then out and then... oh it's stage 1. Crap. Or get *another* character to go fetch the DST and haul it out, in which case you can get a few hauls in before it collapses. Don't forget that you're on a rolling time limit here too if you wanna use that magical HS near Jita. Which of course means there's a ton of people and scanners around.

TLDR: Mining in WHs is quite an effort for quite crap returns. There's a reason botters do it in Nullsec rather than WHs.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:27:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Hroya
So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?

So, change null sec then. Buff it sufficiently to make it viable to have an industry.
>But< once that is settled in, cut the ties with empire.





This will produce some very interesting effects in hi-sec. Most of which would, in the long term, be very positive, I think.

But there will be a hell of a lot of hi-sec mice complaining that someone moved their cheese if this happens.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:30:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Hroya
So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?



It is entirely possible, and likely, that both things are a problem.


There are many possibillities we could look at that could be concidered contributing to the problem.
Some discussed at lenght, others barely meantioned or avoided all together.

But what does appear to be verified contributer to the problem is the inabillity to even try and setup a proper independant industry in your null sec empires.




Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:34:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 10/08/2011 11:29:52Add to the fact that so long as you align and spam directional there really is no risk.


I wouldn't say that at all. Just sneak up on them in a cloaky ship, get into their alignment path, then ram them or wait for them to ram you. That will break their alignment and give you time to lock and wtfpwn them.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:34:00 - [234]
 

As far as ABCs in C1-3 wormholes is concerned, I say "show me the numbers".

If it turns out that, say, 35% of the ABC ores that are being mined come from W-space systems with hi-sec statics, then yeah there's some kind of a case to be made for a rebalance.

If it's more like 3.5%, then why waste time on it?

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:36:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Hroya
So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?

So, change null sec then. Buff it sufficiently to make it viable to have an industry.
>But< once that is settled in, cut the ties with empire.





This will produce some very interesting effects in hi-sec. Most of which would, in the long term, be very positive, I think.

But there will be a hell of a lot of hi-sec mice complaining that someone moved their cheese if this happens.


Yes, i am aware of the massive effect it would have on both empire and null.

Personally i think empire should be a low level playfield, protected by your npc police.
I would love it if no goods at all could enter or leave empire space, seperating both npc protected space from player controlled space. Only way to ship things in or out would have to be wormholes.

It would be a riot of huge proportion but then again, you want the goodies ? Go get them or pay through the nose on the limited supply market.




Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:36:00 - [236]
 

Random though, if you move the manufacturing capacity away from Jita/HS in general, you then push industrialists out to Nullsec/POSs. It seems kinda weird that you can manufacture/research all you want in HS and yet you have to really work to do that in Null (yes I know queues are often full in HS, but with a bit of looking you can find some). Talk about no risk all reward...

Up the costs on HS manufacturing/Research and improve the nullsec outpost capacity and efficiency for manufacturing/research vs HS, could even just put a 1.5x multi on HS stuff. Why the heck am I gonna ship my materials anywhere near nullsec when I can do it all 100% safely in HS? HS is just too cuddly to make real 0.0 empires viable.

TLDR: Make HS *WORSE* for industrialists, not just make NS more attractive. Oh, and nerf lvl 4 missions. The ISK you can make from them is ridiculous (I did some to grind standings, was quite surprised, even with an AFK domi...) 0.5 HS, even at lvl 4 mission standards, should be worse ISK/hr than -0.2 nullsec (gotta give some form of buffer)

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:42:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Hroya
So the problem isnt really the minerals ( large or small ) delivered to high sec through wormholes, but the inabillity to sustain a valid industry in null. ?

So, change null sec then. Buff it sufficiently to make it viable to have an industry.
>But< once that is settled in, cut the ties with empire.



Both are issues, but what you advocate is what I'm aiming for.

But in a situation where, let's say, CCP buffs nullsec.
Provides denser low-ends, more ABC, more industry slots, manageable POS industry modules, etc.

It will still be more convenient for "highsec" (/wormhole) miners to mine in wormholes than take the risk of setting up in 0.0 and provide services there.
So why would they?
And we would then have a situation where instead of boosting 0.0 and provide something to look forward to, any potential accompanying changes to decrease the jita problem would cause serious issues for 0.0 for no gain at all.

The objective is not to "cut the ties" to empire, on the contrary, but to provide a good and beneficial back & forth between 0.0 and empire where one provides services for the other. Right now 0.0 feeds off empire and provides almost nothing of value (other than moongoo) and even that is invented/produced in highsec.

If CCP does this as a two-step process, then we'll have an undesirable situation. But I'll repeat myself, this whole ABC nerf in C1->4 is not the highsec priority on the list, there's a lot of other things that may end up being sufficient in and of themselves. As a matter of fact in the current discussion about improving 0.0 industry it's not even what we're focusing on.

In the grand scheme of things however, this is a situation that shouldn't exist.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:46:00 - [238]
 

It may not be your objective but i sure wouldnt mind seeing the ties cut.

And, if ever, that should happen i'ld be on the first boat heading out to null and help out in the industry there.



Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:47:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 11/08/2011 09:48:02
Originally by: Aedeal
Random though, if you move the manufacturing capacity away from Jita/HS in general, you then push industrialists out to Nullsec/POSs. It seems kinda weird that you can manufacture/research all you want in HS and yet you have to really work to do that in Null (yes I know queues are often full in HS, but with a bit of looking you can find some). Talk about no risk all reward...

Up the costs on HS manufacturing/Research and improve the nullsec outpost capacity and efficiency for manufacturing/research vs HS, could even just put a 1.5x multi on HS stuff. Why the heck am I gonna ship my materials anywhere near nullsec when I can do it all 100% safely in HS? HS is just too cuddly to make real 0.0 empires viable.

TLDR: Make HS *WORSE* for industrialists, not just make NS more attractive. Oh, and nerf lvl 4 missions. The ISK you can make from them is ridiculous (I did some to grind standings, was quite surprised, even with an AFK domi...) 0.5 HS, even at lvl 4 mission standards, should be worse ISK/hr than -0.2 nullsec (gotta give some form of buffer)


While I agree with some of your points, I don't agree with everything...

There has to be venues for everyone everywhere.

An industrialist (miner/inventor/producer/whichever) should have to be able to chose between lower profit for safety/convenience in highsec, or more danger for more profit in 0.0, with wormholes in between (and lowsec, but that's a much much more difficult problem to handle).
Right now 0.0 provides no benefit, except for one who wants to manufacture supercapitals. So there's nothing to aim for... WHs fills that niche to an extent but this is the "wrong" location for the end target to be where there could be so much more synergy between different activities in 0.0.


Hnau
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:07:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Hnau on 11/08/2011 10:07:49
*edit* dont fiddle with temp characters /sigh*
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 11/08/2011 09:48:02
Originally by: Aedeal
Random though, if you move the manufacturing capacity away from Jita/HS in general, you then push industrialists out to Nullsec/POSs. It seems kinda weird that you can manufacture/research all you want in HS and yet you have to really work to do that in Null (yes I know queues are often full in HS, but with a bit of looking you can find some). Talk about no risk all reward...

Up the costs on HS manufacturing/Research and improve the nullsec outpost capacity and efficiency for manufacturing/research vs HS, could even just put a 1.5x multi on HS stuff. Why the heck am I gonna ship my materials anywhere near nullsec when I can do it all 100% safely in HS? HS is just too cuddly to make real 0.0 empires viable.

TLDR: Make HS *WORSE* for industrialists, not just make NS more attractive. Oh, and nerf lvl 4 missions. The ISK you can make from them is ridiculous (I did some to grind standings, was quite surprised, even with an AFK domi...) 0.5 HS, even at lvl 4 mission standards, should be worse ISK/hr than -0.2 nullsec (gotta give some form of buffer)


While I agree with some of your points, I don't agree with everything...

There has to be venues for everyone everywhere.

An industrialist (miner/inventor/producer/whichever) should have to be able to chose between lower profit for safety/convenience in highsec, or more danger for more profit in 0.0, with wormholes in between (and lowsec, but that's a much much more difficult problem to handle).
Right now 0.0 provides no benefit, except for one who wants to manufacture supercapitals. So there's nothing to aim for... WHs fills that niche to an extent but this is the "wrong" location for the end target to be where there could be so much more synergy between different activities in 0.0.





Not to bash an idea, but wouldnt seperating the 2 markets also regulate your low sec issue ? With no access to null, low sec would become a source of minerals for empire held in check by a marginal competition from wormholes. Add to that an inabillity to cyno into low sec from null aswell and low sec will be where players get the first tatse of taking up player controlled space with little to no interference from null sec scaled warfare.

And on the note of wormholes, why not remove static exits ?


Pages: first : previous : ... 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 ... : last (16)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only