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Tu Ko
Predator's Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:04:00 - [181]
 

But if you're a single lonely miner, and you have the choice of mining whatever you can find in 0.5 or mining ABC in a C1 which are you going to choose? Just remember to spam the dscanner every 30 seconds and she'll be right.

My stealth bomber thinks you're an idiot.

Concord Protection Low yield > No local/ Bubble-able exit minorly increased yield.

Sorry there is just no logical argument that says that WH is not the highest risk space out there.

VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:06:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: VaL Iscariot
lol at the future indy version of the nano nerf.

I ninja mine wh's. I know, I'm out of my mind. I've heard: "The logistics are to hard" and "No one is crazy/stupid/dumb to do that" and "*random crap about high sec.*" If you can't pull this stuff off with one hand tied behind your back, blindfolded, a lit cigar in your mouth, texting your mother, fighting off a lion with a chair and a bull whip then you don't know crap about EVE and need to go.

This nerf bat is coming folks. There is no stopping it. No amount of tears, threadnaughts, threadtitans, unsubs, trolls, cearbears, and market manipulation will change this.

Enjoy the tears everyone.

(will link this in a future dev blog about the nerf. Mark my words.)
Im having a difficult time believing you ninja mine ABC in WHs. Im having an even more difficult time believing you have a source of information which supports your allegation regarding the nerf bat and it is impossible to believe that you know what youre talking about.

I mean, you might be right, but its only because you have two options to choose from, nerf or no nerf. Choose one and you stand a good chance of being right.



whats so hard to believe about it? Here's the process:

1. Scan down a WH
2. Go into aforementioned WH and drop some combat probes
3. Anyone home? If no, start scanning. If yes, how many/ship types/are they player ships or just floaters?
3b. Is their an oppurtunity to attack someone? Yes/No? If yes, bring in the Broadsword. If no, start scanning
3c. Are their more advantages sites to be ran? Yes/No? Calculate isk per hour and how much effort you want to apply. If no effort, keep to mining.
4. Scan down a grav belt. Whats in range? Is it in dscan range if a tower is present?
5. Log in hauler alt. Get a fleet up/see if anyone is willing to risk coming with you.
6. Come back in a combat ship and kill spawn.
7. Fetch the barge and Mine till the A & B die, all the while watching dscan like a hawk. Crokite can be found on mass in grav belts in low sec, so no need to bother.
8. ?????
9. Profit


Its not very hard and I've made a tidy sum doing this. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who dares brave the unknown of WH space from K-space. I live in low-sec full time, so the concerns of high sec dwellers don't matter much to me.

And concerning the nerf bat:
Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when. Twisted Evil

NeoShocker
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:17:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.


Sorry my peasant, but I absolutely agree with the CSM chairman and CCP's decisions.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:22:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: NeoShocker
Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.


Sorry my peasant, but I absolutely agree with the CSM chairman and CCP's decisions.


Of course, the best part about this issue is that it wasn't one that was raised by 0.0 CSM reps, we adore you wh miners and your cheap minerals. Wink

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:29:00 - [185]
 

If you love them ( sarcasticly ), why change them ?




Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:31:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: NeoShocker
Sorry my peasant, but I absolutely agree with the CSM chairman and CCP's decisions.

Peasent?

How droll...

Would your agreement with CCP include the anom nerf and the Jump-bridge nerf?

Just wonderin'.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:46:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Of course, the best part about this issue is that it wasn't one that was raised by 0.0 CSM reps, we adore you wh miners and your cheap minerals. Wink

I await the CCP data. Should be interesting to see what it shows. My "gut" feeling is that the Drone regions and upgradeable sov space is moving more, but I could be wrong.

vOv

Until we have the data, we can't really say.

Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:50:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: VaL Iscariot
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: VaL Iscariot
lol at the future indy version of the nano nerf.

I ninja mine wh's. I know, I'm out of my mind. I've heard: "The logistics are to hard" and "No one is crazy/stupid/dumb to do that" and "*random crap about high sec.*" If you can't pull this stuff off with one hand tied behind your back, blindfolded, a lit cigar in your mouth, texting your mother, fighting off a lion with a chair and a bull whip then you don't know crap about EVE and need to go.

This nerf bat is coming folks. There is no stopping it. No amount of tears, threadnaughts, threadtitans, unsubs, trolls, cearbears, and market manipulation will change this.

Enjoy the tears everyone.

(will link this in a future dev blog about the nerf. Mark my words.)
Im having a difficult time believing you ninja mine ABC in WHs. Im having an even more difficult time believing you have a source of information which supports your allegation regarding the nerf bat and it is impossible to believe that you know what youre talking about.

I mean, you might be right, but its only because you have two options to choose from, nerf or no nerf. Choose one and you stand a good chance of being right.



whats so hard to believe about it? Here's the process:

1. Scan down a WH
2. Go into aforementioned WH and drop some combat probes
3. Anyone home? If no, start scanning. If yes, how many/ship types/are they player ships or just floaters?
3b. Is their an oppurtunity to attack someone? Yes/No? If yes, bring in the Broadsword. If no, start scanning
3c. Are their more advantages sites to be ran? Yes/No? Calculate isk per hour and how much effort you want to apply. If no effort, keep to mining.
4. Scan down a grav belt. Whats in range? Is it in dscan range if a tower is present?
5. Log in hauler alt. Get a fleet up/see if anyone is willing to risk coming with you.
6. Come back in a combat ship and kill spawn.
7. Fetch the barge and Mine till the A & B die, all the while watching dscan like a hawk. Crokite can be found on mass in grav belts in low sec, so no need to bother.
8. ?????
9. Profit


Its not very hard and I've made a tidy sum doing this. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who dares brave the unknown of WH space from K-space. I live in low-sec full time, so the concerns of high sec dwellers don't matter much to me.

And concerning the nerf bat:
Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when. Twisted Evil


Parts in red aren't helping your story.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:13:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Let me go back to your first question. You know why the minerals are all in Jita? Because miners bring them there, from all over. Same reason absolutely everything is in Jita, and most manufacturing is in highsec. There was a guy in your alliance who had something to say about that, matter of fact:


This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
As to why more ABC isn't mined in null sec, perhaps the issue is null sec alliances who insist on kill quotas, response to CTAs, the refusal to install industrial upgrades, and the general attitude of miners being "care bears" who are below being spat upon?


None of this applies in Goon Space. Goons have always shown a willingness to let anyone mine until their eyes bleed with full upgrades and any other support they needed. Still, nobody does it. Because it's literally throwing away isk compared to just ratting/incursioning/L4-Mission-alting/pretty-much-any-other-activity.

Look, rational arguments that refute all of your misguided and foolish beliefs that have not a shred of fact to back them up.

And I didn't even need to call anyone a j4g carebear pubbie.

Feel free to try and come up with a cogent rebuttal. I've got all night.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:24:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 11/08/2011 04:28:51

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Let me go back to your first question. You know why the minerals are all in Jita? Because miners bring them there, from all over. Same reason absolutely everything is in Jita, and most manufacturing is in highsec. There was a guy in your alliance who had something to say about that, matter of fact:


This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.


Oh my god, this is tiring.

NULLSEC MINER ORE ENDS UP IN JITA.

Lordy!

Or you can believe that all comes from wormholes. Because that totally makes sense. Try thinking about that, even a little. Just try.

Quote:
Look, rational arguments that refute all of your misguided and foolish beliefs that have not a shred of fact to back them up.


There is some irony to this. If you understood the tinniest bit about wormhole mechanics and how much ore is even in them, you wouldn't be making the argument you are making. Try reading some of the other posts in this thread before going on about your brilliant analysis that a) ore is sold in Jita and therefore b) it all comes from wormholes, because, uh. . .

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:32:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Oh my god, this is tiring.

NULLSEC MINER ORE ENDS UP IN JITA.



It's only tiring because you are being deliberately obtuse.

There are buy orders for minerals in Deklein equal to or higher than the sell orders in Jita on a regular basis. In fact, I know of no less than 6 supercap producers that would take in a virtually unlimited amount of minerals at Jita rates.

There's nobody selling.

They aren't being deliberately thickheaded and paying to move it to Jita instead of selling locally for a better margin. They just aren't mining.

In fact, the Industry Indices are easily visible on every system. They are almost all 0. Because, and get this, because it will blow you away, NOBODY IS MINING.

Seriously, we can confirm on our end that NOBODY IS MINING. It's just not happening. There isn't some Sekrit Gewn Mining Club (no gurlz allowed) out there mining away and shipping their crap to Jita just to **** with us. And from talking to other alliances, it's not happening there either.

Seriously, you are just making stuff up. And it's not even good stuff.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:34:00 - [192]
 

Seriously, I didn't use the word Seriously enough in the previous post. Seriously.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:34:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Oh my god, this is tiring.

NULLSEC MINER ORE ENDS UP IN JITA.



It's only tiring because you are being deliberately obtuse.

There are buy orders for minerals in Deklein equal to or higher than the sell orders in Jita on a regular basis. In fact, I know of no less than 6 supercap producers that would take in a virtually unlimited amount of minerals at Jita rates.

There's nobody selling.

They aren't being deliberately thickheaded and paying to move it to Jita instead of selling locally for a better margin. They just aren't mining.

In fact, the Industry Indices are easily visible on every system. They are almost all 0. Because, and get this, because it will blow you away, NOBODY IS MINING.

Seriously, we can confirm on our end that NOBODY IS MINING. It's just not happening. There isn't some Sekrit Gewn Mining Club (no gurlz allowed) out there mining away and shipping their crap to Jita just to **** with us. And from talking to other alliances, it's not happening there either.

Seriously, you are just making stuff up. And it's not even good stuff.


Your anecdotes about the region of Deklein are not compelling evidence that no one in nullsec mines. Regions of nullsec are different, and have different players in them. Notably, goons have a "no pets" policy.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:37:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Let me go back to your first question. You know why the minerals are all in Jita? Because miners bring them there, from all over. Same reason absolutely everything is in Jita, and most manufacturing is in highsec. There was a guy in your alliance who had something to say about that, matter of fact:


This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
As to why more ABC isn't mined in null sec, perhaps the issue is null sec alliances who insist on kill quotas, response to CTAs, the refusal to install industrial upgrades, and the general attitude of miners being "care bears" who are below being spat upon?


None of this applies in Goon Space. Goons have always shown a willingness to let anyone mine until their eyes bleed with full upgrades and any other support they needed. Still, nobody does it. Because it's literally throwing away isk compared to just ratting/incursioning/L4-Mission-alting/pretty-much-any-other-activity.

Look, rational arguments that refute all of your misguided and foolish beliefs that have not a shred of fact to back them up.

And I didn't even need to call anyone a j4g carebear pubbie.

Feel free to try and come up with a cogent rebuttal. I've got all night.

Your discussing two separate things...

Super-cap production, and what people do for personal income.

The minerals in 0.0 are worth the same as the minerals in Jita, but people don't want to mine in 0.0, they want to pvp! Obviously, people in null-sec building supercaps want their components *now*, and so collect them from the biggest exchange in the Eve universe. Jita.

Even with a nerf, that is not going to change, because there are going to be just as many people unwilling to mine in 0.0 as there are now...

There will always be a major trade hub in empire, because people can (more) safely get those things they need, and get them into their logistics chain than doing so in null-sec. The supply will be better, and the buyers are there.

There is also the widespread feeling / appearance / perception that null-sec'rs aren't too "welcoming" to care-bear type players, and there is only one thing more "care-bear" than mining, and that's missions. So materials for super-caps will come from empire in the future. I don't think CCP is going to change the perceptions of 0.0 behaviors with a WH abc nerf.

But nice try in conflating money making with supercap production.

Also - your conclusion that WH's has anything to do with mineral prices is pure speculation on your part right now, unless of course, you have some data?

Like I said, without the data that CCP have, it's all moot.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:41:00 - [195]
 

Another thing that I *know* is a fact.

Some people who will mine in WH's (god forgive them) don't want anything to do with 0.0.

Go check out the thread "why are renters treated like 3rd class citizens" - you 'll see what i mean.

Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:43:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Let me go back to your first question. You know why the minerals are all in Jita? Because miners bring them there, from all over. Same reason absolutely everything is in Jita, and most manufacturing is in highsec. There was a guy in your alliance who had something to say about that, matter of fact:


This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
As to why more ABC isn't mined in null sec, perhaps the issue is null sec alliances who insist on kill quotas, response to CTAs, the refusal to install industrial upgrades, and the general attitude of miners being "care bears" who are below being spat upon?


None of this applies in Goon Space. Goons have always shown a willingness to let anyone mine until their eyes bleed with full upgrades and any other support they needed.
Still, nobody does it. Because it's literally throwing away isk compared to just ratting/incursioning/L4-Mission-alting/pretty-much-any-other-activity.

Look, rational arguments that refute all of your misguided and foolish beliefs that have not a shred of fact to back them up.

And I didn't even need to call anyone a j4g carebear pubbie.

Feel free to try and come up with a cogent rebuttal. I've got all night.


Doing combat site in wormholes is more profitable than mining as well. Furthermore there are no upgrades for wormholes. What ever radar,ladar, etc, that happens pop up is what you have to work with. If wormholes are the isk fountains that people keep saying they are why aren't more people going into them. Nothing is preventing some huge 0.0 alliance from taking huge amount of wormholes for themselves. Clearly if they can hold large areas out there in null land, taking over wormholes should be a piece of cake. Instead of complaining about any supposed huge amounts of ore, seize the opportunity.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:46:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Your anecdotes about the region of Deklein are not compelling evidence that no one in nullsec mines. Regions of nullsec are different, and have different players in them. Notably, goons have a "no pets" policy.


So, let me get this right, since the largest portion of non-Drone conquerable space ("The North", or what's left of it), has pretty much nobody mining, your assertion is that "pets" renting little bits of conquerable nullsec space are upgrading ihubs, grinding out industry indices, mining like coke fiends, and then shipping the minerals to Jita (don't even get started on the logistics of moving mass minerals to/from nullsec). This, instead of just selling it to their "landlords" to build supers with? I'm just trying to get a picture of what you really think is happening.

Burtzum
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:58:00 - [198]
 

Mining in a WH is already a waste of time. I rarely bother with the gravs that spawn in my hole. Generally the only time I mess with them is when I need minerals for polymer production. I think I figured it amounted to about 24mil an hour mining arkonor. Reduced to 18mil an hour after the refinery's 75% efficiency. Theres only 1 ark rock in a site so the profit just goes down from there. This is all assuming you are not interrupted by visitors from a K162. Add in RSI-inducing dscan mashing and... to hell with it. Not to mention the profit that is eaten away by the fuel for the refinery, and the fuel for whatever type of array you are using to store the raw ore. Or the time that is added into the equation to wait 1 hour for the refinery to online and 3 hours for it to refine a measly 200k m3 batch.

This is using a hulk @ exhumers 4, 2 yield boosters in the lows, and T1 strips cause I can't use ark crystals. Also using a near maxed boosting orca at the POS (without the outrageously priced mindlink). Joe schmoe flying in solo from hisec will have cargo expanders instead of yield boosters, or a hauler alt in an industrial. Either way he will have to fly in and out of the WH everytime the hold fills up, won't have an orca providing boosts, and no POS to retreat to. Even more of a joke.

I suppose I could increase my profit by hauling the raw ore out in the orca... if I wanted to put a 400mil ship at risk about a dozen times per ABC set... losing the entire profit from however many hours of boredom it takes to mine those 3 rocks if the orca gets caught. Or I could sink a bil or whatever it costs for a Rorqual that will be permanently stuck in my WH. lol.

Easy? Uhhh, no. A lot of risk and hassle for crap ISK and messed up wrists. I'd rather kill sleepers and loot relics from my static C3.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:05:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Your discussing two separate things...

Super-cap production, and what people do for personal income.


False. What I have demonstrated here is that there is a DEMAND for minerals in nullsec, but no local SUPPLY. That would normally create an imbalance that would cause people to mine minerals locally, but because there is an excess SUPPLY coming in from W-Space via Jita, the price is artificially lowered to the point where mining locally would be silly.


Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

The minerals in 0.0 are worth the same as the minerals in Jita, but people don't want to mine in 0.0, they want to pvp! Obviously, people in null-sec building supercaps want their components *now*, and so collect them from the biggest exchange in the Eve universe. Jita.


False. On both counts.

People come out to Deklein to mine all the time. Then, they watch as their peers make many times the income they do with such leisurely activities as ratting/incursions/L4missionalts, and they stop mining. Because the ore is worthless. Because of the excess of minerals coming from Jita. Which come from W-Space.

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

There is also the widespread feeling / appearance / perception that null-sec'rs aren't too "welcoming" to care-bear type players, and there is only one thing more "care-bear" than mining, and that's missions. So materials for super-caps will come from empire in the future. I don't think CCP is going to change the perceptions of 0.0 behaviors with a WH abc nerf.


The only reason nullsec has this appearance is because (a) people like you make such wildly inaccurate statements and oft go uncorrected and (b) people confuse the fact that mining is unprofitable with the suggestion that we don't want miners.


Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Also - your conclusion that WH's has anything to do with mineral prices is pure speculation on your part right now, unless of course, you have some data?



Umm... we can see a good portion of nullsec from out here and gauge the amount of mining going on with relative accuracy. And we can see the ore isn't coming from out here. If it's not here, and it's not high sec, the offenders are pretty obvious.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:05:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Your anecdotes about the region of Deklein are not compelling evidence that no one in nullsec mines. Regions of nullsec are different, and have different players in them. Notably, goons have a "no pets" policy.


So, let me get this right, since the largest portion of non-Drone conquerable space ("The North", or what's left of it), has pretty much nobody mining, your assertion is that "pets" renting little bits of conquerable nullsec space are upgrading ihubs, grinding out industry indices, mining like coke fiends, and then shipping the minerals to Jita (don't even get started on the logistics of moving mass minerals to/from nullsec). This, instead of just selling it to their "landlords" to build supers with? I'm just trying to get a picture of what you really think is happening.


Well, it seems a hell of a lot more likely than all the ore coming from tiny tiny wormhole spawns that are a logitical nightmare to move, and extremely dangerous to mine, no?

Earlier on, you said no one in nullsec mines, because ratting is more profitable. Then, you said people in wormholes mine. Have you ever been in a wormhole? Do you have any idea the INSANE isk that can be generated by running the sites?

Your own argument is inconsistent with itself, on several levels. The fact is, it's much easier and more convenient(and safe) to mine in nullsec with an alliance than it is to mine those same ores in wormholes. Further, the disparity in profit that you use as an argument for lack of nullsec mining argues even more powerfully for a lack of wormhole mining. And besides all this, there is the fact you keep dancing around that wormhole ore spawns are intermittent and small.

The only thing you offer as argument is extremely local experience, and local experience dictated by an alliance that does things in an extremely unconventional manner. Deklein does not equal all of nullsec. Not even close. And even if it did (it doesn't), your arguments still would not fly in the face of the very real and pertinent bottlenecks that exist in wormhole mining. To believe that the minerals in Jita come from wormholes, you would have to either have no grasp on game mechanics whatsoever, or a head injury. As you have had these mechanics explained to you several times already, I am sorry to hear about your horrible head injury, and wish you a speedy recovery.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:08:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya


People come out to Deklein to mine all the time. Then, they watch as their peers make many times the income they do with such leisurely activities as ratting/incursions/L4missionalts, and they stop mining. Because the ore is worthless. Because of the excess of minerals coming from Jita. Which come from W-Space.


So naturally they then go to wormholes, to do the absolute least fun, most dangerous and by far least profitable thing in a wormhole. And they do it an impossible number of times, because clearly they are generating most or all of the ore in Jita. Because you have an anecdote.

Logic!

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:15:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya


People come out to Deklein to mine all the time. Then, they watch as their peers make many times the income they do with such leisurely activities as ratting/incursions/L4missionalts, and they stop mining. Because the ore is worthless. Because of the excess of minerals coming from Jita. Which come from W-Space.


So naturally they then go to wormholes, to do the absolute least fun, most dangerous and by far least profitable thing in a wormhole. And they do it an impossible number of times, because clearly they are generating most or all of the ore in Jita. Because you have an anecdote.

Logic!


You see, I have data from multiple nullsec alliance covering large portions of space.

You have... an inability to figure out how to successfully mine a wormhole.

Grats, bro? Your ineptitude sure trumps my data.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:22:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya


People come out to Deklein to mine all the time. Then, they watch as their peers make many times the income they do with such leisurely activities as ratting/incursions/L4missionalts, and they stop mining. Because the ore is worthless. Because of the excess of minerals coming from Jita. Which come from W-Space.


So naturally they then go to wormholes, to do the absolute least fun, most dangerous and by far least profitable thing in a wormhole. And they do it an impossible number of times, because clearly they are generating most or all of the ore in Jita. Because you have an anecdote.

Logic!


You see, I have data from multiple nullsec alliance covering large portions of space.

You have... an inability to figure out how to successfully mine a wormhole.

Grats, bro? Your ineptitude sure trumps my data.


Data? Let's see it. Multiple nullsec alliances covering a "large" portion of space? All you said was Deklein. You have more? About the south? About ROL's space? About providence? I would love to see that too. You sure haven't shared it yet.

You also say you know a way to make the occasional, small spawns in wormholes equal all the ore you see in Jita? Do tell!

What you have, really, is a dumb argument that anyone who has ever even visited a wormhole can see right through, some anecdotes about where you live, and a stubborn refusal to realize the vacuity of your claims. But please, show me all this data! Explain your insane theories on how Jita is full of WH ore. I bet you can't. I bet, you're just going to hit post post post, and keep talking about Deklein as if it's the only place in nullsec.

Toshimo Kamiya
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:23:00 - [204]
 

Post Post Post

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:25:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas

As for the 'bot network' theory, no one is suggesting that people bot hulks in wormholes. But if you're a single lonely miner, and you have the choice of mining whatever you can find in 0.5 or mining ABC in a C1 which are you going to choose? Just remember to spam the dscanner every 30 seconds and she'll be right.

That Hulk isn't coming out of the C1... it can go in packaged, or it can be built at a POS in there, but either way it's not simply "jump in and mine some arkonor." In any case, most lonely 0.5 miners who know about wormholes recognize that wormhole space is far more dangerous than high sec, and won't risk their ships there, given how little they can take out again in each load.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:29:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 11/08/2011 05:32:51
Originally by: Tu Ko
Sorry there is just no logical argument that says that WH is not the highest risk space out there.


plus, I'm still trying to figure out how the heck do you bring in and out anything bigger than a mining barge into a C1 (unless packaged). doesn't those things have WH's that can't even take a hulk's weight?

Tomas Sean Connery
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:35:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Tu Ko
Sorry there is just no logical argument that says that WH is not the highest risk space out there.


plus, I'm still trying to figure out how the heck do you bring in and out anything bigger than a mining barge into a C1. doesn't those things have WH's that can't even take a hulk's weight?


Wormholes- Time limits, Mass and Jump limits
*Hulk has a Mass of 40,000,00kg, Retriever is 20,000,000kg

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:38:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 11/08/2011 05:39:34
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.


Actually, besides nerfing WH ore, there is another alternative to encourage mining in null, but I suspect you won't like it. Anyway I've highlighted what might be the problem for you.

Possible solution? Nerf ratting bounties! Surprised

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:40:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
False. What I have demonstrated here is that there is a DEMAND for minerals in nullsec, but no local SUPPLY. That would normally create an imbalance that would cause people to mine minerals locally, but because there is an excess SUPPLY coming in from W-Space via Jita, the price is artificially lowered to the point where mining locally would be silly.

Jesus - prove a) drone region compounds aren't having an effect. You can't (check the movement of compounds on the market *in jita*). b) prove WH's are having the *most* effect... (see a above). Until we have the *DATA* from ccp, all this is pure speculation.
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
False. On both counts.

People come out to Deklein to mine all the time. Then, they watch as their peers make many times the income they do with such leisurely activities as ratting/incursions/L4missionalts, and they stop mining. Because the ore is worthless. Because of the excess of minerals coming from Jita. Which come from W-Space.

"People"? Who? Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal... I don't know what your guys problems are, but when we need mins (in our WH, and we even *have* any) everyone mines or sucks gas or whatever. "Many hands make light work" and all that.

Besides that, the minerals in WH's are worth *exactly* what the minerals in Deklein are worth (they *are* the same stuff) - and yet your contention is that it's not profitable enough to do in 0.0, and yet hordes of people are doing it in WH's? Shocked Are you f'n serious? If they are (and I *doubt it* seriously) - what is different between WH's and 0.0? hmmmmmm?
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
The only reason null-sec has this appearance is because (a) people like you make such wildly inaccurate statements and oft go uncorrected and (b) people confuse the fact that mining is unprofitable with the suggestion that we don't want miners.

Bull****.
Go read the forums, go chat to people in wh's. People are in WH's (and many of them are 0.0 vets) because they have no interest in the 0.0 bull****. The perception is there, because miners, industrialists and "care-bears" are denigrated as a general rule in null-sec because they disdain pvp. Again, go check out that thread.
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Umm... we can see a good portion of nullsec from out here and gauge the amount of mining going on with relative accuracy. And we can see the ore isn't coming from out here. If it's not here, and it's not high sec, the offenders are pretty obvious.

Ummmm... We can see a good portion of WH's from out here, and gauge the amount of mining going on with relative accuracy. And *we* can see the ore isn't coming from WH's. If it's not here, and it's not Hi-Sec, the offenders are pretty obvious. Drone Regions!

Again. Without the data that only CCP has, saying "as a fact" that WH's have jack-**** to do with mineral prices is pure speculation.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:43:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Stella SGP
Edited by: Stella SGP on 11/08/2011 05:39:34
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
This would be a great point if the original post by Doctor Ungabungas didn't specifically mention Supercaps. You know, the kind you can't make in HiSec.

Nullsec Alliances make their Supercaps in Nullsec. Period. Full Stop.

In non-Drone Regions, the materials for these Supercaps are compressed and imported from Jita. Period. Full Stop.

If the minerals in nullsec were worth the time and effort, people would mine them for local supercap production.

But, they don't.

Because, and let's see if we can all count along, if, for the same amount of time spent, you can make 2 isk ratting for every 1 isk mining, you just rat instead of mining.

And the reason you can't make anything mining, is because the mineral prices are depressed from (a) Drone Regions (although minimally, because, as Doc pointed out, most of that gets used internally) and (b) W-Space mining.

It's pretty simple and obvious. Unless you can come up with a viable alternative reason that would explain why mining locally would be less profitable and more effort than paying W-Space Miners for it in Jita and importing, you don't have much of an argument.


Actually, besides nerfing WH ore, there is another alternative to encourage mining in null, but I suspect you won't like it. Anyway I've highlighted what might be the problem for you.

Possible solution? Nerf ratting bounties! Surprised
+1

Also, has anyone considered the resources a player needs in mining skills, probing skills, and combat skills, to properly mine in and out of a wormhole? Besides the risk argument, can anyone give an estimate to the amount of skills to make this profitable.


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