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LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:40:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: LittleTerror on 10/08/2011 14:39:57
Originally by: dgastuffz
i dont get it where is the risk to mine on o.o surrounded by hundreds of blues


Yeah this, it use to be like a cat and mouse game mining that good ore and moving it through nullsec to empire and that was actually what made mining worth while, it was risky but it was very profitable and rewarding.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:42:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Hroya
Meissa, could we see the numbers on the individuall minerals coming from wormholes and the ones coming from various null sec regions so we can compare them ?



If it's not public already it's not mine to divulge...
But a request has already been put for CCP to provide that information as part of a QEN. No commitment, but the request has been made.

Since people are interested in the subject, I have one question that's appropriate considering the current conversations with CCP on the subject of 0.0 industry.

I know when I started the game I dreamed of going into 0.0, creating an outpost, mining locally with other people and provide affordable ships/modules/ammo for people in the neighbourhood. Then it became apparent that everyone goes shopping at Jita and that idea was dead in the water.

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:42:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
Granted, yes a real player will have to provide the bookmarks
Öand that kind of defeats the purpose. Beyond that, there's the unpredictable availability of the sites, so there's no telling when it will run out and you have to get a handle on-line to scan out a new site (if one is even available) or move the whole operation to a different system.

I can't really see botters wanting to bother with all of that manual labour even before the problems with having voluntary local and the risks this causes for the bots.

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:44:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Signal11th on 10/08/2011 14:46:20
Edited by: Signal11th on 10/08/2011 14:45:17
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 10/08/2011 13:54:14
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
The reason mining sucks even with ABC ores
Öcan be condensed into two words: Drone Regions.
Quote:
Add to the fact that so long as you align and spam directional there really is no risk.
Ösame as in all nullsec.

So why WHs would be any particular problem is quite odd.


This.

wh space:
*no local
*shifting exits
*lower refine amounts
*high risk, inefficient logistics
*dscan every 2 secs
*no intel channels (deep blue 0.0 is the safest space there is)

0.0:
*local
*intel channels
*nearly 100% refine
*jump freighters/bridges etc - easymode low risk logistics
*so easy a machine can do it

tbh nerf ABC in 0.0.


I'll play...
* WH space does not need intel channels, it's unconnected to other space.
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
* refineries are a problem, but Rorqual compression makes that problem go away. (Edit: initially typo'ed Orca instead of Rorq)

Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down. As opposed to 0.0 where one can simply warp to your belt and kill you.

Also, most of 0.0 does *NOT* have ABC.

My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

I regularly disagree with Mittens, but on this he's right. What you're missing from all this is that this was but a footnote in the larger context on how to bring much-needed changes to industry overall...


Just shows really how out of touch Mittani is.
0.0 with an alliance is actually one of the safest places to play EVE not WH space, there are more important things his highness should be concentrating on rather than removing competitors to bots.

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:47:00 - [65]
 

You need data and statistics to prove this point.Just saying:" I think it's more easy due to my PoV think that X,Y and Z stuff in wormhole is easier ...I think".
Because it will turn into a vicious cycle of argument and counter argument based on PoV.
Both parties need data to prove the point.


Cydori
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:50:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
As part of the 0.0 initiative, we've managed to sell CCP the idea that industrial capabilities/desirability should be severely improved in 0.0, in more ways than one, and among other 0.0 boost things.


A major complaint about this particular CSM is that its members seem intent on using their influence to urge changes that will greatly benefit the big 0.0 alliances at the expense of everyone else. You guys deny that charge, claiming you represent everyone fairly and are only advocating changes that are good for EVE as a whole. And to prove the point that you're acting responsibly, you're now using your influence to urge changes that will greatly benefit the 0.0 alliances at the expense of everyone else...

Actions speak louder than words. Sorry, Meissa, your credibility nosedived the day you decided to start following Mittani around like a poodle.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:51:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


I'll play...
* WH space does not need intel channels, it's unconnected to other space.
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
* refineries are a problem, but Rorqual compression makes that problem go away. (Edit: initially typo'ed Orca instead of Rorq)

Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down. As opposed to 0.0 where one can simply warp to your belt and kill you.

Also, most of 0.0 does *NOT* have ABC.

My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

I regularly disagree with Mittens, but on this he's right. What you're missing from all this is that this was but a footnote in the larger context on how to bring much-needed changes to industry overall...


First of all... shifting exits. If you're in a wormhole in your hulk mining and the exit shifts, you're going to self-destruct. Not too many hulks are running around with probe launchers equipped, you know? Secondly all grav sites in holes are anoms... no static belts everyone can find with a simple right clicky warp to. So, you'd need to first, find a hole, then scan down any grav sites if they exist in that hole (we haven't had one for weeks), then activate the grav site, go get a combat ship, kill the rats that you're not goin gto tank in your hulk, go get your mining ship, mine while clicking dscan at least a few times a second, fill a single load of minerals, exit the hole and unload, fly back in and mine another load, ... all the time hoping the residents of the hole (which most holes have, especially lower end ones) haven't woken up, (you'd already be dead if they were awake)...

Rorq's, if you've built one in a hole, is there for residents, not people flying into a hole for mining. Most ores are used in hole anyhow... hole-mining for profit is not a major endevour. Gravs are relatively rare, and you can go weeks (like we have) without a single grav spawning.

No... Mittens, and yourself it seems, are clueless.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:54:00 - [68]
 

This entire thing sounds like "My warmachine is running out of funds because people are refusing to mine without bots unless they get at least same amount of iskies from hours work than bot does in 23 and half *rage*".

Thing is... if you think that the mineral prices are too low - don't mine. If enough people don't mine, minerals run out and price will climb. Now... how hard was that?


jackaloped
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:57:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Bustin Jieber
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Mittani is normally quite reasonable but in this case he is totally wrong.


Nope he is 100% correct.


I suppose there will be a exodus of null sec miners heading to class 1-3 wormholes.

Mittani is not normally reasonable. He is normally selfish and this is par for the course. He will propose things that help him personally and doesn't even pretend to do different.

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:57:00 - [70]
 

He's a goon, and as he has already stated explicitly, as CSM he is ONLY representing the interests of the goons.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:01:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Cydori
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
As part of the 0.0 initiative, we've managed to sell CCP the idea that industrial capabilities/desirability should be severely improved in 0.0, in more ways than one, and among other 0.0 boost things.


A major complaint about this particular CSM is that its members seem intent on using their influence to urge changes that will greatly benefit the big 0.0 alliances at the expense of everyone else. You guys deny that charge, claiming you represent everyone fairly and are only advocating changes that are good for EVE as a whole. And to prove the point that you're acting responsibly, you're now using your influence to urge changes that will greatly benefit the 0.0 alliances at the expense of everyone else...

Actions speak louder than words. Sorry, Meissa, your credibility nosedived the day you decided to start following Mittani around like a poodle.


And yet I'm not a member of any big 0.0 entity.

My perspective when it comes to boosting industry in 0.0 is not that of the industrialist in a big 0.0 alliance, I'm not in one and don't want to be in one.
My perspective is to find ways to make the lives of the all industrialists in 0.0 work.

Also make it acceptable, unlike now, to get 0.0 entities to accept industrialists who currently get shown the door because they don't show up for PvP ops. A miner/inventor/manufacturer should have objectives there as well. Many like the security of highsec and that's fine, but there needs to be objectives for industrialists too.

Part of the reasons most miners/producers are stuck in highsec right now is because there's no need for them in 0.0. You don't need them when you can buy compressed minerals easily in highsec and ship them by JF to 0.0, you don't need them to produce anything locally either because it's just a case of buying in Jita and shipping. Also, the outposts and POSes in 0.0 are in no shape to be able to sustain any kind of productivity.

Actions speak louder than words, and I agree. And I won't be able to show any output of my actions until CCP actually implements the changes under discussion, and hopefully in the direction advocated. But the game designers are listening and communicating, so we'll see.

Finally, I'm not in the habit of bashing my fellow CSM members [publicly :p] but the day you will be able to count me as someone who follows The Mittani are definitely not here. Sometimes we disagree, but sometimes we agree, and I'm interested in the output of this conversation (hence why i'm posting).

I won't be able to respond anymore until tomorrow, but I'll read and respond then.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:07:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/08/2011 15:07:19

I recall Mittens saying a few weeks ago on FHC that he didn't plan on wasting political capital on ABC ores in Wormholes or changes to them in general, simply because he wasn't as knowledgeable about them.

What changed?

Kotami
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:07:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


Removing ABC from WHs will not encourage players to mine in 0.0. If that's your argument, it's absurd.

If CCP wants more players to move to 0.0, they have got to find a way to allow small alliances to live in 0.0 autonomously without the constant risk of being blobbed by their neighbors.

That is ultimately the appeal of WHs: Small alliance autonomy and small gang PVP. To propose that people like WHs because of easy access to ABC ore is farcical and blatantly incorrect.

The bottom line is WHs appeal to many pilots because they have no interest in engaging in nullsec circle jerks or blob warfare where individual contributions to alliance success are ultimately insignificant. Fix that THEN we can engage in a serious discussion about ABC in WHs.

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:08:00 - [74]
 

i tend to agree with mittenz...
isnt the point of EVE to be a hard game to play and as it stands we are verging on WOW territory here so we needs more risk...

if you ask me get rid of all insurance!

plus i would put in stacking penilty for RR and atacking a ship to limit the effectivness of the blob!
though this is a radical idea and could be exploited easily so it might take a while to come up with a mechanic that works well..

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:11:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 10/08/2011 15:11:56
Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.


Hi matini. You are a ****tard of the nth degree. you fail at game mechanics hard. You cannot take a hulk into a class 1 wormhole and then bring it back out.

You are a CSM. You should know about the 'not being able to repackage in a WH bug' and bringing that to CCP, instead of not knowing of its existence and saying stupid **** like you can mine arkonor 2 jumps from jita.

Do your ****ing job or quit asshat.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:12:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Bane Necran on 10/08/2011 15:13:38
Originally by: Hawkcrest
Keep in Mind fellas, your 0,0 Overlords once did what you are doing today. We didnt instantly join the game and go to 0,0 and say this space is ours, we started in crap space in high sec mining kernite like the rest of you. We just dicided not to stay carebears, and to play eve to its fullest.


And keep in mind many people in hisec have gone to 0.0 and back already. We know what it's like, and instead of 'EVE to the fullest' we found it quite boring.

Hisec is where the people are, and there's all kinds of things going on. In 0.0 it's dead system after dead system. Which is fine if you just want to make ISK. But interesting it is not.

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:13:00 - [77]
 

Sorry Meissa, but saying that mining in WHís is easy and convenient suggests a complete lack of understanding of WH life by you and your chair

This restriction to ABC in C5 and C6 only is also complete nonsense as you deem these more dangerous and therefore OK. The lower class WH with HS staticís are frequented far more by the lone wolf or fast and mobile gangs to catch the unaware. These pilots also do prior intel, so even taking the limited precautions and procedures available to you, you only know they are there when itís too late. This is one of the many issues involved with WH life

Local is too powerful a tool for the 0.0 carebear. I suggest CCP try a week suspension from it, so even though you donít have the same logistic restraints WH dwellers deal with on a daily basis, letís see how they cope. One would bet this topic would soon be dropped. The originator of this silly brain fart should be ashamed

LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:14:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Hroya
Meissa, could we see the numbers on the individuall minerals coming from wormholes and the ones coming from various null sec regions so we can compare them ?



If it's not public already it's not mine to divulge...
But a request has already been put for CCP to provide that information as part of a QEN. No commitment, but the request has been made.

Since people are interested in the subject, I have one question that's appropriate considering the current conversations with CCP on the subject of 0.0 industry.

I know when I started the game I dreamed of going into 0.0, creating an outpost, mining locally with other people and provide affordable ships/modules/ammo for people in the neighbourhood. Then it became apparent that everyone goes shopping at Jita and that idea was dead in the water.

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


People would actually buy stuff local if people did not charge rip off prices, if I sell stuff at say a just a little over jita prices in 0.0 it goes pretty damn fast. In fact some markets in 0.0 space are very good like that and you can make a killing if your a trader out there if you bothered to ship the stuff down there or build it.

Jita isn't really a problem in all this.

That dream you had still exists but instead you choose to shop at jita, that is your problem...

M'ktakh
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:17:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Part of the reasons most miners/producers are stuck in highsec right now is because there's no need for them in 0.0. You don't need them when you can buy compressed minerals easily in highsec and ship them by JF to 0.0, you don't need them to produce anything locally either because it's just a case of buying in Jita and shipping. Also, the outposts and POSes in 0.0 are in no shape to be able to sustain any kind of productivity.


Again, you show that the whole debate has actually nothing, nothing at all to do with mining, its all about logistics.

I think we can agree that W-K mineral transactions are rather low (who, in their right mind, would ship minerals in those precious m^3 instead of sleeper loot?), and the same is probably true for K-W transactions. So, we see that wormhole minerals have nothing to do with the problem.

If the main reason 00 does not need mineral extractors is the ease of logistics, then logistics have to be made more difficult. There is no way around this, except maybe nerfing the hell out of highsec ore spawning, though I suppose it will be a long time until the stockpiles run out.

If logistics is the core of the problem (and you seem to say so), then lets concentrate on that alone, and leave this pitiful power-playing of WH nerfing out.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:20:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 10/08/2011 15:35:46
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


Well this is good question.

We do know that people usually tend to use the method what is most convient and easiest to them.

Now lets think about tritanium. Why would you mine tritanium in 0.0 as it is cheap in hisec and relatively easy/safe to haul into nullsec? Actually why would you build anything else than caps in nullsec, because everything is so easy to haul from jita and people build all the other crap in hisec anyways.

I believe that the final solution is to make nullsec->(lowsec)->hisec hauling so risky that;

- People start building stuff in null rather than heading to jita (ccp needs to aid this by providing tools)
- People start mining even tritanium in nullsec because hauling it from hisec is lottery job.
- Price of high end minerals will rocket in hisec, because there is less hauling and stuff gets used in null also. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great. Price will climb also in 0.0 because supply drops while people are mining low end stuff also.
- Price of low end minerals will rocket in 0.0, because there is less hauling and stuff gets mined locally. This will lower low end mineral prices in hisec also, because demand will drop. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great.

... to be clear - this means that those freigters gonna start popping.
-> how to arrange this, well those who know better should do the planning. With my knowledge I would prolly add small change of gate malcunction which could throw freighter anywhere in the galaxy and deal with it .)
-> another jump bridge nerf for freighters?

As long high end minerals and low end minerals travel freely between null and high and null manufactures are lacking tools, there wont be real industry/tradecenters in null. Correct?

edit: couple things...

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:24:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


Well this is good question.

We do know that people usually tend to use the method what is most convient and easiest to them.

Now lets think about tritanium. Why would you mine tritanium in 0.0 as it is cheap in hisec and relatively easy/safe to haul into nullsec? Actually why would you build anything else than caps in nullsec, because everything is so easy to haul from jita and people build all the other crap in hisec anyways.

I believe that the final solution is to make nullsec->(lowsec)->hisec hauling so risky that;

- People start building stuff in null rather than heading to jita (ccp needs to aid this by providing tools)
- People start mining even tritanium in nullsec because hauling it from hisec is lottery job.
- Price of high end minerals will rocket in hisec, because supply will drop. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great.
- Price of low end minerals will rocket in 0.0, because supply will drop in hisec and in 0.0 because people need to mine lowend stuff also. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great.

... to be clear - this means that those freigters gonna start popping.
-> how to arrange this, well those who know better should do the planning. With my knowledge I would prolly add small change of gate malcunction which could throw freighter anywhere in the galaxy and deal with it .)
-> another jump bridge nerf for freighters?

As long high end minerals and low end minerals travel freely between null and high and null manufactures are lacking tools, there wont be real industry/tradecenters in null. Correct?


And there you end ****ing up the entire economy with the ******ed inflation in the prices.
Making the other activities, like being a merc, soldier etc etc , impossible due to the new high in the prices , and punishing those guys who wanna just start their career in the military .

You can make 0.0 attractive by adding different new content, and stuff that actually says wow its a real f-in reward.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:32:00 - [82]
 

I'd go to null if there would be this one thing implemented:

>You are about to leave empire space, be adviced that doing so you will not be able to return here on your own choice. We will only provide medical care for your clones but will not aid in the transportation of goods coming from those boundless lands beyond our limits. May you strike riches and fame, fly safe and good luck<

Personally that is.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:34:00 - [83]
 

Over the course of 6 months me and my 8 man corp mined quite a bit of ore and along with our sleeper killing made a decent profit.

However to do that we had to

1. Set up a PoS in a wormhole with no regular k-space links.
2. Built a capital ship in said wormhole (Rorqual); bringing parts through many unknown systems and shifting exits over the course of two weeks.
3. Bring in defenseless hulks to mine ore from mining sites that shifted and could only be accessed when they decided to spawn all while keeping enough defenses to ensure said hulks were safe to do their work.

And somehow we don't deserve your coveted ABC ore?

Right...

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:35:00 - [84]
 

Mining in WH's..... ABC ores need to be nerfed.... wtf?

Mining in a WH is higher risk than mining in 0.0. Not slightly higher risk, MUCH HIGHER RISK. I don't care if it is 2 jumps away from Jita.

I dare you. try and jump a couple of hulks and a rorqual into a wormhole. See what happens. I'll laugh when a couple of cloaky T3's warp to you or someone bubbles the WH entrance so you can't escape, and roflstomps your expensive fleet, all for one or 2 stinking grav sites, and all because you didn't have the intel that local gives you.

This is ridiculous....

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:39:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
He's a goon, and as he has already stated explicitly, as CSM he is ONLY representing the interests of the goons.

This

He has said this repeatedly yet it seems people don't believe him.

Cang Zar
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:41:00 - [86]
 

It's pretty ****ing tragic going forward with removing ABC ores from wormholes, when asking ANYONE you know with understanding of wormhole specifics, will tell you that your basic assumptions are way off.

The hilarious part is, that this is exactly what inspired the current null-sec dominated CSM. That people were making changes to null-sec with limited, little or outright no experience. It's just a case of same ****, new *******s. "Hurr, durr, them wormholes are surely fiiled with ABC minerals and it's perfectly safe and logistics are no problem at all! Hurr, durr, lets change that!". Jesus ****ing christ, you couldnt be more wrong and your experience is too limited to see it, at least you should acknowledge that and ask someone, before throwing your support behind a suggestion like this.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:44:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Takamori Maruyama
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


Well this is good question.

We do know that people usually tend to use the method what is most convient and easiest to them.

Now lets think about tritanium. Why would you mine tritanium in 0.0 as it is cheap in hisec and relatively easy/safe to haul into nullsec? Actually why would you build anything else than caps in nullsec, because everything is so easy to haul from jita and people build all the other crap in hisec anyways.

I believe that the final solution is to make nullsec->(lowsec)->hisec hauling so risky that;

- People start building stuff in null rather than heading to jita (ccp needs to aid this by providing tools)
- People start mining even tritanium in nullsec because hauling it from hisec is lottery job.
- Price of high end minerals will rocket in hisec, because there is less hauling and stuff gets used in null also. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great. Price will climb also in 0.0 because supply drops while people are mining low end stuff also.
- Price of low end minerals will rocket in 0.0, because there is less hauling and stuff gets mined locally. This will lower low end mineral prices in hisec also, because demand will drop. Those who keep hauling get reward for their risk which is great.

... to be clear - this means that those freigters gonna start popping.
-> how to arrange this, well those who know better should do the planning. With my knowledge I would prolly add small change of gate malcunction which could throw freighter anywhere in the galaxy and deal with it .)
-> another jump bridge nerf for freighters?

As long high end minerals and low end minerals travel freely between null and high and null manufactures are lacking tools, there wont be real industry/tradecenters in null. Correct?


And there you end ****ing up the entire economy with the ******ed inflation in the prices.
Making the other activities, like being a merc, soldier etc etc , impossible due to the new high in the prices , and punishing those guys who wanna just start their career in the military .

You can make 0.0 attractive by adding different new content, and stuff that actually says wow its a real f-in reward.


Actually this wouldn't punish anyone. It would make trading between high and null very risky but also profitable for the skilled few, but more importantly it would generate market hubs to 0.0.

You could still build stuff in high. Low end minerals would be cheaper. High end minerals would be more expensive. Most likely the prices wouldn't swift much on most products.

The industrial, mining, marketing would be in totally new level at 0.0

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:54:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Bustin Jieber
Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Mittani is normally quite reasonable but in this case he is totally wrong.


Nope he is 100% correct.


No he is not. I would like him removed from the position tbh.

Spacing Cowboy
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:55:00 - [89]
 

Making industie in 0.0 intresting is not hard at all,
Forget about nerfing the wh-boys, life is evil to them as it is.

Change the following for 0.0 -)

- Grav icefields
- Super veldspar ( we need a viable way to get lowends )
- Weapon to track down and destroy cloakers
- Better base refine from pos-modules
- Faster grav cycle time ( once it compremised you have to wait for 3 days now )
- Better options to tank a barge without spending piles on KM-lol mods.



Nick Bete
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.10 16:43:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Since people are interested in the subject, I have one question that's appropriate considering the current conversations with CCP on the subject of 0.0 industry.

I know when I started the game I dreamed of going into 0.0, creating an outpost, mining locally with other people and provide affordable ships/modules/ammo for people in the neighbourhood. Then it became apparent that everyone goes shopping at Jita and that idea was dead in the water.

What would it take for you to mine in 0.0? Why would you like to do it and why wouldn't you? What would be your long term objectives?


It would take breaking up the power blocs that currently control vast swaths of 0.0 and making it accessible to newer/smaller entities. Oh, and to change the elitist mindset of 0.0 players towards industrialists.

Alas, since CCP doesn't have a time machine to roll things back 7 years, nor Sansha mind control technology, there's nothing that can be done currently to induce me as a casual player to go to 0.0 for any reason, much less mining/industry.


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