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NoNah
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:12:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Amsterdam Conversations
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217

This.

wh space:
*no local
*shifting exits
*lower refine amounts
*high risk, inefficient logistics
*dscan every 2 secs
*no intel channels (deep blue 0.0 is the safest space there is)

0.0:
*local
*intel channels
*nearly 100% refine
*jump freighters/bridges etc - easymode low risk logistics
*so easy a machine can do it

tbh nerf ABC in 0.0.


Then why would you mine in a WH?

If 0.0 mining is so much better, why would you live in a WH over the ore?

Or is there something I'm missing? Or maybe something you forgot to tell?


I like how everyone throughout the thread has been seaking of completely different things than quoted. While it's spoken of very low class wormholes people are further on discussing the higher classes.

As a corp, there's really not much difference. No local is neither a benefit nor a issue, as much of an intel-channel it is for the defender it is for the offender. Going on a lazy roam in 0.0 is much easier than going on a roam in wh-space, and hence much more common. The lack of intel channels has nothing to do with the w-space, k-space difference, you could very well set that up with sufficient effort. It's also somewhat laughable to imply that a macro can't mine in wormhole-space. There's no difference.

However, if you decide that you need some ABC-ores an afternoon, head to Jita, buy a hulk and look at somewhere to go wormholes are DEFINITELY much easier, from start to finnish. And again, this is mainly regarding low class wormholes.

Further more, it's far easier to barricade yourself into a class 1 wormhole than a 0.0 system. The effort involved in killing a small capfleet in a class 1 compared to batphoning a supercapfleet ontop of one in 0.0 is... eugh.

Another good question would be the WHY would you settle in a class 6, as a miner, when class 1 does the same thing better in more or less all regards? Logistics are easier in one way, allowing larger ships(given the increased risk that admits), and harder in another through longer distances.

I couldn't really care less about miners quarrels regarding wh-space, but he does have a point, and thus far no one but tippia has made any sort of counter-argument.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:25:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 10/08/2011 13:54:14
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
The reason mining sucks even with ABC ores
…can be condensed into two words: Drone Regions.
Quote:
Add to the fact that so long as you align and spam directional there really is no risk.
…same as in all nullsec.

So why WHs would be any particular problem is quite odd.


This.

wh space:
*no local
*shifting exits
*lower refine amounts
*high risk, inefficient logistics
*dscan every 2 secs
*no intel channels (deep blue 0.0 is the safest space there is)

0.0:
*local
*intel channels
*nearly 100% refine
*jump freighters/bridges etc - easymode low risk logistics
*so easy a machine can do it

tbh nerf ABC in 0.0.


I'll play...
* WH space does not need intel channels, it's unconnected to other space.
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
* refineries are a problem, but Rorqual compression makes that problem go away. (Edit: initially typo'ed Orca instead of Rorq)

Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down. As opposed to 0.0 where one can simply warp to your belt and kill you.

Also, most of 0.0 does *NOT* have ABC.

My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

I regularly disagree with Mittens, but on this he's right. What you're missing from all this is that this was but a footnote in the larger context on how to bring much-needed changes to industry overall...

Nieero
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:30:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Nieero on 10/08/2011 13:31:52
Originally by: Mittani

Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion.

Wormholes with exits to popolated areas are very high risc compared to other activities with similar payout!

Originally by: Mittani
...think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC.

Basically the same!

Originally by: Mittani
Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash.

Yeah, as i said before, there are good and much more severe reasons for that, which have got nothing to to with the highly limited influx of materials from wormholes.

Originally by: Mittani
Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much.

That's a good point - botting does have a impact on mineral prices, but: there is no botting in wormholes :)

edit: messed up the formatting, also just for the records i'm not living in wormholes or going there regularly

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:36:00 - [34]
 

Meissa, you know where to solve the mining problem, and it's not in the wormholes.

Wormholes = active miners

Besides, if you even think you're safe mining at a site in a wormhole you are wrong. Are you sure no one mapped the wormhole before you logged in thus you wont see probes on scan ?






Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:38:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
* WH space does not need intel channels, it's unconnected to other space.
More accurately, W-space can't have intel channels because its connection to other space is fluid.
Quote:
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
Shifting exists only prevents any one specific hostile to find you easily; it doesn't make it harder for a hostile, in the general sense, to find you.
Quote:
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
A static highsec exit is very low-mass, and will easily deposit you an unspecified (but still large) amount of jump away from the hub, and you can't have a pick-up waiting at a pre-determined location to pick everything up.
Quote:
* refineries are a problem, but Orca compression makes that problem go away.
Orcas can't compress.

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:41:00 - [36]
 

Meissa Anunthiel - another CSM member who seems to have problems understanding the mechanics of WH.

Orca Compression..... lol

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:43:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
The reason mining sucks even with ABC ores
…can be condensed into two words: Drone Regions.
Quote:
Add to the fact that so long as you align and spam directional there really is no risk.
…same as in all nullsec.

So why WHs would be any particular problem is quite odd.


This.

wh space:
*no local
*shifting exits
*lower refine amounts
*high risk, inefficient logistics
*dscan every 2 secs
*no intel channels (deep blue 0.0 is the safest space there is)

0.0:
*local
*intel channels
*nearly 100% refine
*jump freighters/bridges etc - easymode low risk logistics
*so easy a machine can do it

tbh nerf ABC in 0.0.


I'll play...
* WH space does not need intel channels, it's unconnected to other space.
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
* refineries are a problem, but Orca compression makes that problem go away.

Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down. As opposed to 0.0 where one can simply warp to your belt and kill you.

Also, most of 0.0 does *NOT* have ABC.

My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

I regularly disagree with Mittens, but on this he's right. What you're missing from all this is that this was but a footnote in the larger context on how to bring much-needed changes to industry overall...


Orcas can't compress ore - you need a Rorqual for that, which is a much more significant investment.

But Mittens is right. High end ores are far too common. The addition of ABC ores to w-space is but one part of a larger problem. Both the drone regions and the prevelance of bots need to be seriously addressed by CCP.

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:45:00 - [38]
 

CCP Sreegs really is owning the bot problem btw. He's on top of it like a wild man with a hunk of meat.

VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:46:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jienna Sarain


..And who in there right mind would jump a hulk into a wh to just mine abc ores randomly??..





allow me to say, that i have done this in the past.

I take a Covetor because I'm cheap, but yes, I have gone Wormhole ninja mining in the past. Myself, my alt to haul, and whatever other crazy pirate with a mining streak I can get to follow me. This kind of mining is the best kind of mining. There is a high element of danger doing so because a lot of wh's are occupied, and the local's normally don't appreciate someone taking all their ark.

He is right in that wormhole ore needs a crack in the face with the ol' nerf bat. Crokite in a class 1, Bistot & Crokite in a class 2 and all ABC in class 3 and up. Balance this by increasing the amount of mid range ore in classes 1 and 2. (i.e. Jaspet, Hemorphite, etc)

Want a quick fix? Do the aforementioned fix and don't let class 3's spawn in high-sec. Problem solved. I take no issue with this, because I live in lowsec.

NoNah
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:47:00 - [40]
 

I'd love to be corrected here, but I thought all sov-0.0 HAD ABC-ores through the mechanics of ihubs and system upgrades. Still not in belts.

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:48:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: White Tree
CCP Sreegs really is owning the bot problem btw. He's on top of it like a wild man with a hunk of meat.


Can you give us more detail on how he is doing this,please?

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:49:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Orca compression makes that problem go away.


uh.. Orca compression!?


Anyway, Mittani can whine and dine all he wants. Unless there's statistical proof that WH mined ore affects the industry, CCP won't act. You're basically saying that active WH miners, with no RORQUAL support for compression and little to no logistical support have it the same way as 0.0 100% automated macros who can mine 23.5 on those ABC moons in belts, with much more security.

You are wrong.


Wormhole ore is too much of a hassle for empire space dwellers to trouble themselves with. The only use for them is to offer support for the Wormhole dwellers themselves.

Removing those ores from lower level holes is a half-thought solution worthy of CCP. And even CCP is second guessing this one. I suggest that the CSM DROP IT before you guys make yourselves look like fools.

Nieero
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:52:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
* refineries are a problem, but Orca compression makes that problem go away.

- Additional security for your POS, not for your Hulk wich can be scanned down by a experienced prober (or other WH residents who know the sites already) in < 30 seconds. You've incomparably worse warning tools than a nullsec dweller. And you will be scanned down. Often.
- The wormhole itself is a very restrictive bottleneck, on the other side there are jumpfreigthers filled with drone compounds and refined minerals. How often can a Orca jump through a C1?
- Basically: If you mine in a system which is close to a hub you have to take extra riscs
- Orca compression? wut?

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down.

We're talking about grav sites in 0.0 spawned by the Ihub. No one mines in a belt, except for starting up the idustrial level.

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

Fair enough. You've got lots of options with better leverage to accomplish that though.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:53:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Hroya
Meissa, you know where to solve the mining problem, and it's not in the wormholes.

Wormholes = active miners

Besides, if you even think you're safe mining at a site in a wormhole you are wrong. Are you sure no one mapped the wormhole before you logged in thus you wont see probes on scan ?



Not saying it's safe in wormholes, I say it's generally safer, and easier.

And I have mined in wormholes both in ones I lived in and in ones I went in just for a quick mining session, it's not danger-free but it's not more dangerous that 0.0, and in many ways is much more convenient.

The actual complaining by people whose primary activity is mining makes my point. If it's more desirable to mine in WH, why mine in 0.0?

Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
* shifting exits prevent hostiles from finding you easily, thereby providing you with *MORE* security.
Shifting exists only prevents any one specific hostile to find you easily; it doesn't make it harder for a hostile, in the general sense, to find you.


It does, as there isn't always a WH connection opened to your specific wormhole all the time.
Originally by: Tippia

Quote:
* harder logistics, not really, if you get a WH with a static highsec exit, the distance to trade hub is substantially less than in most of 0.0.
A static highsec exit is very low-mass, and will easily deposit you an unspecified (but still large) amount of jump away from the hub, and you can't have a pick-up waiting at a pre-determined location to pick everything up.


And an AFK freighter will have no issues whatsoever picking it up wherever it may be (except if it's in one of the 3 highsec systems fully surrounded by lowsec). Once it's in highsec, timing is not an issue anymore.
Originally by: Tippia

Quote:
* refineries are a problem, but Orca compression makes that problem go away.
Orcas can't compress.



Sorry, I meant Rorqual. And yes I'm well aware that it's harder to get a rorq in a C1 or C2, but it is doable the back way.


Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:57:00 - [45]
 

Has anyone ever run into bots mining in w-space ? Seems to me its pretty obvious which area is more dangerous.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:03:00 - [46]
 

If you think that WHs are safer than alliance 0.0, then you're a blithering imbecile, and probably also think that Orcas can compress ore.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nieero
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Risk is comparatively lower simply by virtue of being harder to find. Also, your being at a site in space rather than at a belt means you have more time to notice people scanning you down.

We're talking about grav sites in 0.0 spawned by the Ihub. No one mines in a belt, except for starting up the idustrial level.


Except people who don't have their systems primed for mining (quite a lot of them) and NPC 0.0.


Originally by: Nieero
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
My problem, as I see it, is that a nerf to C1->4 ABC would mean that ABC would be off the reach of most miners, because 0.0 currently isn't a place where miners thrive, most alliances consider them nuisances and/or dead weight. This, in my opinion, is the problem to solve.

Fair enough. You've got lots of options with better leverage to accomplish that though.


It's part of the problem in my opinion. Nerfing something is boosting something else, and vice versa.

For years i've talked to industrialists as part of a way to try and improve the situation, and one of the major complaints was the inability to access ABC because (before WHs) getting into 0.0 as a miner was practically impossible.

As part of the 0.0 initiative, we've managed to sell CCP the idea that industrial capabilities/desirability should be severely improved in 0.0, in more ways than one, and among other 0.0 boost things. Other than "better ore", there have historically been few "long term" objectives for miners and I'm trying to work with CCP to provide that. But with easy access to ABC in wormholes, it would be practically impossible to provide a balanced reward to 0.0 mining that can compete.

So in my opinion, these "easy" wormhole ABCs have to go. Mining in C5s and C6s is a whole different game altogether, no static highsec/lowsec exits for one, and people can more easily come and wreck your home (a couple of carriers in a C1/C2 and you're all but invulnerable), so those are fine in my opinion.

Now, obviously, if the situation in 0.0 stays identical to what it is now where miners are persona non grata, then I'm perfectly happy with leaving ABC in wormhole. In essence you're all complaining on something that would be a problem if it was the only thing that happened, but shouldn't be one when it is accompanied by other changes.

There are many things that are problems for mining/industry. Bots were one of them, and we got CCP to start banning them quite heavily (hope they publish the numbers), we're working on some of the other factors, but that means some things have to be nerfed for others to be improved.

When/if the C1->C4 ABC mining gets nerfed, if the situation overall is not better for miners, I'll accept being bashed and blamed for it but as it is I truly believe the plan we're working on with CCP is for the best for the industrialists.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
Has anyone ever run into bots mining in w-space ? Seems to me its pretty obvious which area is more dangerous.
That has more to do with the impractical nature of constantly having to scan down your mining sites, though — it becomes a no-go even before security becomes an issue.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:09:00 - [49]
 

If it's more desirable to mine in WH, why mine in 0.0?

If you sort out the first part of my post you have fixed this question.


Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:15:00 - [50]
 

WTF is a quick mining session? If you want to make money you need long, safe and uninterrupted periods of time. Wormhole mining is more random, it is a lottery whether you die or not. Mining output / h is lower since you cannot have all the tools you have in normal space. Nobody who is sane punches directional scanner for hours every 30 seconds without computer assistance and on top of that you also have to check results manually and do flawless job every time.

In 0.0 risks are under control, your product is easier and more profitable to refine and get into market and you can also build supercaps for sale to get rid of bulk of minerals if you want directly whereas you cannot do that in a wormhole. Even capitals can be a pain to actually get into lowsec for sale. And bots are more useful with local than without. It is actually high end wormholes which are safer mining places, not high-sec connecting low ends.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:16:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Jienna Sarain
What makes it most comical is his complete lack of knowledge of wh mechanics in his comments.

2 years in wh's from a c3 to c5 and not once have we had a wh exit any where near a market hub.

And who in there right mind would jump a hulk into a wh to just mine abc ores randomly??

The logistics and ore compression + hauling are a headache on thier own moving ores out of a wh and we only do it to refine into minerals and ship back in for in wh production of cap ships for wh use. (refinery array is way too much waste)

I really cant see how abc ores are having much of an impact on market prices at all considering the amount of effort and time it takes to get the ore to known space market hubs.

Should try looking at null sec sources of abc ores and see where its all coming from to effect market values.




^^This...

Visiting wormholes with hulks and hauling ore out is relatively risky business, when we keep in mind that wormholes may collapse, there is limit how much stuff you can drive thru them and the "no local, rely to directional scanner not to be blown up".

To do this rather safely, you need dedicated person sitting cloaked close to the wormhole directing the trafic and keeping eye of the wormhole capacity. Someone with constant dscan. 1 person to haul the ore for each hulk mining the ore (as orca prolly won't fit thru the hole anyways).

Thing is... it is not that profitable because such many people are needed for the task to make it real mining op. Solo hulks/retris may be there, sure - but they can't mine such amounts that it would affect the economy.

To make wormhole mining profitable, you gotta have POS there, live in that hole and make your living from the stuff that the hole has to offer. You also have to accept that you may not be able to exit the hole for weeks. As far as I am aware, there is no static wormholes in hisec (or is there?).

Anyways... I don't really agree with the stuff that Mittani is feeding. There is too many variables he ignores in his statement.

sidenote: if for some sick reason this nerf ever goes live, I sincerely hope that it will be something like lowering the change of grav sites to appear on daily basis than removing them all once and forever.


Ghoest
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:21:00 - [52]
 

The "distance" thing is a total scam on the part of 0.0 playing CSMs.

Distance means nothing to a large alliance based in 0.0 thanks to the various jump mechanics in the game.

They just dont want competition from small independent corps and alliances.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:22:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Ya Huei
Has anyone ever run into bots mining in w-space ? Seems to me its pretty obvious which area is more dangerous.
That has more to do with the impractical nature of constantly having to scan down your mining sites, though — it becomes a no-go even before security becomes an issue.


Constantly ? I don't know what wormhole u live in but typically I'd say we get one grav site per week or so.

Nieero
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:25:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow

Thing is... it is not that profitable because such many people are needed for the task to make it real mining op. Solo hulks/retris may be there, sure - but they can't mine such amounts that it would affect the economy.

Mittani would call somebody bothering about the economy a capitalistic douchebag and tell him to diaf, in the first place Laughing

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:26:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 10/08/2011 14:27:29
Originally by: Ya Huei
Constantly ? I don't know what wormhole u live in but typically I'd say we get one grav site per week or so.
Constantly as in "if you don't scan it out, you're not getting any ore", as opposed to 0.0 where it's just rclick→warp to belt.

A botting program has to be able to solve that before the security of a system even becomes an issue in deciding to deploy the bots there or not.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:30:00 - [56]
 

Meissa, could we see the numbers on the individuall minerals coming from wormholes and the ones coming from various null sec regions so we can compare them ?




LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:32:00 - [57]
 

He is correct in everything he said, if you want to make mining profitable again then make it more risky, then less people will be able to go mine the ABC ores and then only the people who actually plan and put in the effort will profit from it.

dgastuffz
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:35:00 - [58]
 

i dont get it where is the risk to mine on o.o surrounded by hundreds of blues

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:35:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 10/08/2011 14:27:29
Originally by: Ya Huei
Constantly ? I don't know what wormhole u live in but typically I'd say we get one grav site per week or so.
Constantly as in "if you don't scan it out, you're not getting any ore", as opposed to 0.0 where it's just rclick→warp to belt.

A botting program has to be able to solve that before the security of a system even becomes an issue in deciding to deploy the bots there or not.


Granted, yes a real player will have to provide the bookmarks, but aside from that I'm guessing that bots probably also know how to warp to a POS or something when local spikes? So "warp to bookmark" is probably already among the botters arsenal of tricks.

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:37:00 - [60]
 

Mittens is a incompetent moron... old news.


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