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Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.08.13 20:52:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
So the thieves were running away when that idiot decided to kill them. Sound like a clear case of self-defense, right?

The truth is that Joe Horn was NOT threatened in any way, the thieves weren't even stealing things in his own house. He's just a man who decided to do "justice" himself, to become the judge and executionner without any of the impartiality, detachement and clear analysis of the facts that warrant a fair judgement. The man is a murderer.

The morons who applaud that aren't better than the average lynch mobs in middle-east, either. The mentalities and motivations are clearly similar...




Quoting another truth-post.

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.13 21:22:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Bart Starr

Older man, typing on his computer when he hears breaking glass next door.
Seeing 'two black men' breaking into his neighbor's house, he calls 911.
Police take too long to arrive, so when the thieves attempt to escape the house, Joe Horn confronts them in the yard with a shotgun, telling the police dispatcher that "I am going to kill them." Three shotgun blasts and two dead thieves later, Joe Horn becomes a folk hero.



So the thieves were running away when that idiot decided to kill them. Sound like a clear case of self-defense, right?

The truth is that Joe Horn was NOT threatened in any way, the thieves weren't even stealing things in his own house. He's just a man who decided to do "justice" himself, to become the judge and executionner without any of the impartiality, detachement and clear analysis of the facts that warrant a fair judgement. The man is a murderer.

The morons who applaud that aren't better than the average lynch mobs in middle-east, either. The mentalities and motivations are clearly similar...




Careful. Murder is a specific legal term, and no rational person considers Joe to be a murderer. He did commit homicide, but homicide is justified in some contexts. Self-defense is only one of those contexts. Defense of personal property is another. In Texas, defense of a neighbor's personal property is a third. Remember: This case didn't even go to a TRIAL. Charges were not filed.

Joe Horn did not intercede because he felt personally threatened. He was attempting stop the crime-in-progress. In the 911 recording you can clearly hear Joe give the two thugs a verbal warning, with the intention of holding them until the police arrived.

"Move...and you're dead!"

They did not follow his explicit instructions, started to run, and were killed.

I seem to think they must have been especially stupid thieves. Maybe they didn't understand plain English. Illegal, drug-dealing, previously deported Columbian aliens or no - committing this kind of crime in broad daylight, then not following simple instruction by a man with a shotgun, in Texas of all places. Rolling Eyes

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.08.13 21:26:00 - [93]
 

So can you explain to us in "legal terms," why he had the authority to give a life or death order to these people 'move and you're dead.' ?

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:00:00 - [94]
 


Here is the relevant link.

Texas Castle Doctrine

The only question that arose from this incident was over whether or not the law extends to your next door neighbor's property (which had clearly been forced into). The grand jury took an expansive view and decided that Joe's actions to defend his community was justified. No charges were filed.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.14 03:33:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
So can you explain to us in "legal terms," why he had the authority to give a life or death order to these people 'move and you're dead.' ?


It's called "citizen's arrest". In the US, laws regarding "citizen's arrest" vary widely from state to state. In general though, citizen's arrests are allowed if the citizen witnesses a felony, or when asked by the police.

Now, whether or not a citizen is allowed to use lethal force during such an arrest is up for debate. In most places, this would probably not be allowed. I know that in Michigan you actually weren't even allowed to kill in self-defense. However there is a culture of "vigilantism" in Texas, paired with a sorts of "tough justice" which has little compassion for criminals. Many people find this barbaric, but other people like this sort of system.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.14 19:02:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword

The truth is that Joe Horn was NOT threatened in any way, the thieves weren't even stealing things in his own house. He's just a man who decided to do "justice" himself, to become the judge and executionner without any of the impartiality, detachement and clear analysis of the facts that warrant a fair judgement. The man is a murderer.

The morons who applaud that aren't better than the average lynch mobs in middle-east, either. The mentalities and motivations are clearly similar...



Horrible comparison. Lynch mobs are illegal and thus wrong.

Who defines what murder is? Your community (aka government/society.) If a community gets together and agrees that you can shoot someone stealing from your neighbor's house, then who are you to disagree?



Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.15 00:21:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Horrible comparison. Lynch mobs are illegal and thus wrong.



Lynch mobs are not necessarily illegal.

Originally by: stoicfaux

Who defines what murder is? Your community (aka government/society.) If a community gets together and agrees that you can shoot someone stealing from your neighbor's house, then who are you to disagree?



So if the community agrees a woman haxing sex outside of marriage (for example by getting ****d) should be stoned to death, I should not disagree?

GreasyCarl Semah
Posted - 2011.08.15 00:47:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: mama guru
The US locks up more people per capita than North Kora.


This is just stupid.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.08.15 00:53:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
Originally by: mama guru
The US locks up more people per capita than North Kora.


This is just stupid.


Yeah it's easy to have less prisoners when you can simply kill all the prisoners.

GreasyCarl Semah
Posted - 2011.08.15 00:57:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
However there is a culture of "vigilantism" in Texas, paired with a sorts of "tough justice" which has little compassion for criminals. Many people find this barbaric, but other people like this sort of system.


This is an understatement, most people love it. We also have police and citizens that carry firearms. It is completely legal for a citizen to carry a rifle as long as he/she isn't a convicted felon. You don't need a license or anything else. It is legal to carry a pistol in your car and to/from your car. It is legal to carry a concealed pistol on your person with a license. It is not legal to openly carry a pistol. In a strange coincidence, we don't have riots here like sometimes occur in places like Chicago and Los Angeles. The threat of getting shot in the ass makes the lowest of the low lifes behave most of the time, although you still have an occasional incident or two. No system is perfect but I prefer the one that allows a person to use their judgement when it comes to defense. To each their own though, I understand when people are afraid of firearms, most of the time it is because they have never handled one.

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:01:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
I understand when people are afraid of firearms, most of the time it is because they have never handled one.


What is like to live in a country where the criminal justice has failed you all so completely that the only way some of you can ease the fear of being a victim of crime is to arm yourselves to the teeth and vow to kill because they took a bit of stuff?

VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:05:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: VKhaun Vex on 15/08/2011 10:06:19
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
What is like to live in a country where the criminal justice has failed you all so completely that the only way some of you can ease the fear of being a victim of crime is to arm yourselves to the teeth and vow to kill because they took a bit of stuff?


This is obviously a very twisted way of putting things, but it made me think of something funny.

It's illegal or socially unacceptable to take that gun out with you, so you leave it at home where it will be stolen.

Or even better, you lock it up in a safe. You buy a gigantic weighted and reinforced combination safe for your gun, to protect your stuff with, but you don't actually lock up your stuff to begin with! So they can just take it while you're gone and leave you with a gun to protect your nothing!

That's a fun thought. ^^

Miranda Nebail
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:39:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Miranda Nebail on 15/08/2011 14:39:38
Both cases suck. Both countries laws on the subject, suck.

-in the UK case, the family of the kid that died spoke a lot, claiming the great injustice their kid was dead. Yet, they did nothing to deter the kid from crime. The farmer should have never ever spended time in jail for defending his home.

Criminals get it easy.
Thus, why not riot or loot, if they'll never get punished?


-in the US case, the dude actually said "I'm going to kill them" and he actually did it. He shot them in the back, and that was never mentioned? The guy actually just wanted to kill someone, he was actually excited about it, looking for it.

All those guns, and gun rights?
Now in the US, a kid enters a school and kills 20, and no one in shocked.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:54:00 - [104]
 

The Joe Horn case does not get discussed in the media. The media in the USA are masters of "lie by omission" (an example of which is found here).

Why?

Because something happened in that case which scares the hell out of a lot of establishment hacks from judges to bankers.


Can you figure it out?

Hints:
I chase judges around with the topic.
Trying to raise awareness of it at the local courthouse will get your first amendment rights violated in short order.







GreasyCarl Semah
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:24:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
What is like to live in a country where the criminal justice has failed you all so completely that the only way some of you can ease the fear of being a victim of crime is to arm yourselves to the teeth and vow to kill because they took a bit of stuff?


You'll have to tell me, I have no idea what that is like. Maybe ask someone in London about that, although they aren't allowed to arm themselves, even the police have to worry about hurting those poor rioters. lol


Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:23:00 - [106]
 

It is pretty insulting when people who can afford bodyguards and live in gated communities lobby for restrictions on firearm ownership.

One of the cool things about Alaska - its one of two states that allows you to carry concealed - WITHOUT a permit. Thats right, State of Alaska actually trusts the citizenry to carry, without making them pay a fee, take a stupid class, or beg the local police chief.

As opposed to the UK, which actually puts restrictions on kitchen knives and took all firearms (including sporting firearms) away from the population based on the actions of a SINGLE deranged man.

Then again, after watching those London riots...maybe they took firearms away from the Brits for a good reason.

WHAT? Those rioters don't represent Brits as a whole?

Well, the insanely violent behavior of drug dealing gangs in LA, New York and Chicago does not represent the rest of the heartland USA. Rates of firearm related death in places like North Dakota, New Hampshire and Montana? Not so bad.

Sucks that US crime statistics get so heavily skewed by the inner city slums, and the rest of us have to pay for it. Then we have to listen to sanctimonious calls for more firearm restrictions. Rolling Eyes

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:40:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 15/08/2011 17:50:16

Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
What is like to live in a country where the criminal justice has failed you all so completely that the only way some of you can ease the fear of being a victim of crime is to arm yourselves to the teeth and vow to kill because they took a bit of stuff?


You'll have to tell me, I have no idea what that is like. Maybe ask someone in London about that, although they aren't allowed to arm themselves, even the police have to worry about hurting those poor rioters. lol



The situation is no doubt bad in the UK as far as violence goes (though people are allowed to arm themselves btw, just not the mentally deranged or criminals).

However, given the homicide rates are almost four times higher in the US, it is pretty safe to assume the UK system works a lot better overall.

GreasyCarl Semah
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:42:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
The situation is no doubt bad in the UK as far as violence goes (though people are allowed to arm themselves btw, just not the mentally deranged or criminals).

However, given the homicide rates are almost four times higher in the US, it is pretty safe to assume the UK system works a lot better overall.


When I say someone is "armed" I mean with a firearm since everything else is just a joke in comparison. We have a saying here in Texas "don't bring a knife to a gunfight". It is next to impossible to get a license for a gun in the UK unless you need it for your job or hunting, even then it isn't easy.

As for the homicide rate, it isn't a measure of how good the system works. Of course our homicide rate is much higher, we shoot some of our criminals rather than worry about sending them to jail and/or mailing them benefit checks. Shooting a criminal is a homicide, whether it is crime or not is a legal question.

Besides, we all know the British are just more polite Laughing

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:57:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Jada Maroo
Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
Originally by: mama guru
The US locks up more people per capita than North Kora.


This is just stupid.


Yeah it's easy to have less prisoners when you can simply kill all the prisoners.


North Korea wasn't a good example, but he still has a point: The US are by far the most heavily armed country, yet 1% of it's population is in jail, which is freaking huge, and the criminality rate is higher than most democracies. That is empyrical evidence that having guns is useless to prevent crimes from happening.


Also, another point: The vast majority of guns used by criminals were stolen from legal owners. One might think that removing the guns for everyone would drastically reduce over time the number of victims. And before someone point out that you can get a weapon illegaly from an arms dealer, such a thing would be exceptionnal if the cops do their job correctly.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:08:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Jada Maroo
Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
Originally by: mama guru
The US locks up more people per capita than North Kora.


This is just stupid.


Yeah it's easy to have less prisoners when you can simply kill all the prisoners.


North Korea wasn't a good example, but he still has a point: The US are by far the most heavily armed country, yet 1% of it's population is in jail, which is freaking huge, and the criminality rate is higher than most democracies. That is empyrical evidence that having guns is useless to prevent crimes from happening.


Also, another point: The vast majority of guns used by criminals were stolen from legal owners. One might think that removing the guns for everyone would drastically reduce over time the number of victims. And before someone point out that you can get a weapon illegaly from an arms dealer, such a thing would be exceptionnal if the cops do their job correctly.


Whoa, whoa, whoa!

You are looking at that 1% number and assuming all of those people are violent gun offenders, which they aren't. The reality is that most people in the prison system are non-violent. Example

You also throw out a random "fact", "The vast majority of guns used by criminals were stolen from legal owners." Please link me the info to back that up.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:17:00 - [111]
 

I'm assuming nothing of the sort. I suggest you train up Reading Comprehension to V.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:22:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
I'm assuming nothing of the sort. I suggest you train up Reading Comprehension to V.



Fair enough, I'm still curious about,"The vast majority of guns used by criminals were stolen from legal owners."

Malcheus
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:29:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
worthless Columbian illegal immigrants


This kind attitude was used by Adolf ****** to commit genocide, not a single person is worthless.

And when someone robs you that should not allow you the right to sentence them to
death and carry out your own sentence.

The eye-for-an-eye type of mentality is in my oppinion barbaric.

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:34:00 - [114]
 

Interestingly, disarming the population in the UK has led to a massive increase in robberies and aggravated assault, as well as far more burglaries. And that is just England and Wales. I imagine including Scotland and Northern Ireland (also part of the UK) would make the comparison even worse.

In fact, UK violent crime rates are far higher than in the United States.

Also, as I said earlier. There are magical places in the United States where guns are plentiful, gun control is nonexistant, yet gun crime is exceedingly rare.

These places (Iowa, Maine, Idaho, Dakotas, Utah, Minnesota, New Hampshire etc.) are awash in guns, gun control laws are nonexistent, and there are TONS of scary hunters and redneck 'gun nuts'. Idaho even has a reputation for skinhead compounds. Yet per capita firearm crime - almost zilch. There are plenty of safe places to live.

Why is that?

I'd fill in the blanks for you, but I've already been accused of racism once already. Rolling Eyes

The two charts have a disturbingly high degree of correlation.

Europeans LOVE to blame the largely white, middle class 'gun nuts' and NRA members for American gun crime, yet its pretty clear that they are NOT the problem. Get a clue.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:05:00 - [115]
 

LOL! using the mail as a source for facts!


Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:45:00 - [116]
 

The two points of the Horn case that makes a lot of government hacks, Wall Street banksters, judges, and corrupt politicians VERY nervous are:

1. Jury Nullification: the power of a jury to judge both the case AND the law. Is running out of the house and shooting a couple of burglars murder? The jury that refused to charge determined that THIS case the LAW did not apply. Yes, there are laws against this sort of thing. But it would appear that Horn also had something else extremely rare in the corrupt courts of the USA: a jury of his peers. If he was hauled to say, Wisconsin, or they used a jury from the suburbs of New York, he would be on death row. But people in Texas are sick and tired of criminal safe zones and case after case like this and apparently Horn got a "jury of his peers" (other Texans) which is required by law under the Constitution. (Don't give me that crap of "well when the black man gets an all white jury blah blah blah - those were cases where the Constiutional rights of defendants were violated).
2. Policing powers of citizens. Yes, in the US, citizens have police powers. It's very seldom discussed because if it were, people would end up informed. The media does not want that. Fact is, the ONLY legal difference between a citizen and a cop in the US (aside from the uniform and government paycheck combo) is that a cop can be covered if he screws up. Therefore, if you exercise police powers as a mere mundane and it turns out that you arrested/collared/pointed a gun at/shot the wrong person, you go to prison. But cops are arresting, pointing guns at, and shooting the wrong people all of the time and they get a paid vacation (known as "administrative leave"). You have police chiefs making huge salaries and police union bosses making tons of money - so the idea that peons have enforcement powers (or even the right to self defense for that matter) scares them. What if we decided we didnt' need police and instead should just hire some local constables?

So the government and their educational system have worked hard for nearly a century to destroy any real knowledge of how the law works, and with some help from the entertainment industry to make it cool and hip to care only about "Dancing with the Stars" and sports. Any controversial case, like this one, gets swept under the rug fast.




Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:14:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 15/08/2011 21:37:10

Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah

When I say someone is "armed" I mean with a firearm since everything else is just a joke in comparison. We have a saying here in Texas "don't bring a knife to a gunfight". It is next to impossible to get a license for a gun in the UK unless you need it for your job or hunting, even then it isn't easy.



Now I am not a UK citizen, but 'sporting' typically includes target shooting on the firing range. At least here in germany it is that way, and even though our gun control laws are considered strict if you desperately want a firearm just join a shooting club and you have proper reason to apply for a license and own one (in fact, you may own multiple pistols and rifles).

It is not really that hard to get your hands on a firearm, just not a matter of Joe Blow with a criminal record as long as my arm walking into a store and buying one no questions asked.

The large majority of firearm related crime here is committed with licensed guns btw, even though there is a considerable problem with illegal (blackmarket) firearms since the collapse of the former soviet union.

(Just to have it mentioned, you are allowed to use your licensed firearm you have stored at home in self-defense in case of burglary, within reason. We rarely have cases where lethal shots are fired though.)

Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah

As for the homicide rate, it isn't a measure of how good the system works. Of course our homicide rate is much higher, we shoot some of our criminals rather than worry about sending them to jail and/or mailing them benefit checks. Shooting a criminal is a homicide, whether it is crime or not is a legal question.


Well, looking at murders using firearms, it looks even worse with the US sporting over twentyfive times more murders involving firearms.

We also see a clear correlation with gun control laws here, given german gun control laws are arguably less restrictive than in the UK, with the murder rate per capita involving firearms being four times as high.

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:02:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Bart Starr on 15/08/2011 22:03:26
Just because its in the Mail, doesn't mean its not true. Sorry to burst your little bubble of denial.

Robbery rates: UK vs USA

You coddle criminals and disarm citizens, this is the result.

GreasyCarl Semah
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:47:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Well, looking at murders using firearms, it looks even worse with the US sporting over twentyfive times more murders involving firearms.

We also see a clear correlation with gun control laws here, given german gun control laws are arguably less restrictive than in the UK, with the murder rate per capita involving firearms being four times as high.


You mean guns are outlawed so fewer people die because of guns? Why is that suprising? More people also die from violent crime involving other weapons such as knives, much like what has happened in the UK. Fact is, a gun is fantastic equalizer, the smallest little old lady can bring down the biggest tough guy in the world with a $200 pistol. And that is the point, self defense.

In a free society, people are going to occasionally go crazy and commit murder, when they do it with a gun it is ugly. You can't do anything to stop that. We accept that here. If we are lucky, someone else can remove that threat with their weapon. Also, you never hear about 99% of the time where a gun owner is threatened, draws his weapon and uses it in a positive manner by making a threat magically evaporate into thin air. The biggest nastiest mugger or carjacker will rethink what he is doing when he realizes he is about to die. It is for this reason that the majority of local police agencies are fully in favor of citizens carrying guns.

Benny Hill
Caldari
General Thrusters
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:02:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Benny Hill on 15/08/2011 23:03:44
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Jada Maroo
Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah
Originally by: mama guru
The US locks up more people per capita than North Kora.


This is just stupid.


Yeah it's easy to have less prisoners when you can simply kill all the prisoners.


North Korea wasn't a good example, but he still has a point: The US are by far the most heavily armed country, yet 1% of it's population is in jail, which is freaking huge, and the criminality rate is higher than most democracies. That is empyrical evidence that having guns is useless to prevent crimes from happening.




Are you even aware that the US does not survey its criminal population to even determine how many are actually citizens of the US, and not illegal aliens so - any numbers you quote - count more than US citizens? Best estimates are that US Federal prison have 30% of its inmates are illegal aliens who come to the US and commit federal class felonies, and that is only based on immigration holds that were placed. The state of California houses 13% of its population as illegal aliens, and that is only based on the number of immigration holds placed on inmates.


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