open All Channels
seplocked Out of Pod Experience
blankseplocked China's first battlestar
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]

Author Topic

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:33:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 30/08/2011 13:33:37
Originally by: Riedle
Edited by: Riedle on 28/08/2011 23:13:31
Quote:
If you want the USA to get out of the mess it's in economically, they have to do it better than the chinese by adding features that the chinese versions don't have, but they have to be something that's worth the extra money and that people are willing to pay extra for...That's the tough part in these hard economic times we live in.


This doesn't even make sense. What are you talking about?

What product?

Do you mean the iPhone? American product that is developed, marketed, financed, researched in the USA and slapped together in China. Is that a Chinese product to you? lol

There is one Chinese electronics company that I can think of that does all that in China and slaps their products together there as well. That's lenovo and they were actually started in Hong Kong years ago and the laptops they built they bought from an American company, IBM.

That's my whole point. There are hardly any 'Chinese' companies that actually develops anything.
For the vast majority of cases they just assemble products that are developed elsewhere.

This is one of the things that China has to change and so far they have been unable to do so. One cannot say the same about Japan when they were developing, they had a ton of innovative companies from Sony to Toshiba, to Suzuki, to Kawasaki, to Mitsubishi to Panasonic to Toyota, etc etc etc.

You can't say the same for China and that's a problem for them.

The fact that you are oblivious to this just speaks to your ignorance on the subject and I honestly don't even know why you continue to post about it.
The only thing I get from your posts is China good, USA bad. Not very interesting to me tbh.



It's 20 years of actual work experience talking first of all, and second, all engineers and designers graduating from either china or india are working for 1/3rd to 1/2 the money the same engineer working in the USA would earn with the same education, so guess what that does to developement costs of any product when everybody involved in the project is earning less than 1/2 the money, and it takes dozens if not hundreds of people to complete said project over a 3 to 5 year period...


What you basically have little clue on is how fierce the job market is these days, even when you have a good education and i gave examples such as the electrical engineer i work with that has a masters degree and 10 years experience and he was 18 months working in crap jobs until he landed where i'm working at, something which btw you didn't even bother to reply....Wink

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:21:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 30/08/2011 14:40:09
Edited by: stoicfaux on 30/08/2011 14:23:57
Originally by: Riedle
Edited by: Riedle on 28/08/2011 23:13:31
Quote:
If you want the USA to get out of the mess it's in economically, they have to do it better than the chinese by adding features that the chinese versions don't have, but they have to be something that's worth the extra money and that people are willing to pay extra for...That's the tough part in these hard economic times we live in.


This doesn't even make sense. What are you talking about?


edit: found the Forbes article: Why Amazon Can't Make A Kindle In the USA

I think the poster was referring to an op-ed piece about how the US used to represent innovation and that nowadays the US cannot compete against mass-production in Asia. Instead of trying to build cheap mass produced items that required cheap labor to build, the US needs to leverage innovation and skilled workforce to create products with extra whiz bang features.

However...

An example in the article was Dell (I think?) that engaged in cost cutting by outsourcing their motherboards to Asus. Dell got to cut costs by 20% and since creating motherboards wasn't exactly a core business for Dell, the deal was a "win" for Dell. Eventually Dell outsourced all their components to Asus at a 20% cost savings. This was great right up until Asus started selling Asus brand computers that were competing directly with Dell brand computers.

Dell couldn't compete with Asus on price, however Dell could try selling based on extra features or quality, i.e. Asus is the cheap no-frills brand, and Dell could try to be the Apple of the PC world.

However, because Dell has outsourced its manufacturing process, Dell no longer had the means to add innovation to its product line.

The final example in the argument was the Obama administration's idea of creating jobs by pushing the green energy tech sector. However, since most of the chip manufacturing plants are no longer in the US, an increase in solar panel sales would simply create new jobs overseas.

Quote:

Do you mean the iPhone? American product that is developed, marketed, financed, researched in the USA and slapped together in China. Is that a Chinese product to you? lol


The iPhone was a positive example of a US company that embraces innovation and kept its engineers and manufacturing close together. (The engineers need to very close or hands-on with the manufacturing process in order to make changes, create improvements, tweak features, etc., that add innovation and thus make the product more desirable than the cheap version.)

Long story short, the point of the article was that the US cannot compete on price, that the US needs to focus on innovation, and that the "cutting costs is king" mentality of US companies is a short term win that is preventing innovation and putting US companies out of business in the long run.

Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't find the article again.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:48:00 - [123]
 

Absolutely true on all fronts, but since companies want to play it safe and look as the short term cost savings as the primary motivation, we're not likely to get out of this rut anytime soon....You should see how many high tech projects over the years got either canned, seriously downsized or horribly delayed from lack of funding these days, wich is directly tied to how the overall economy is doing....


Ultimately it comes down to that in the end....How well the chinese economy is doing,even in a recession versus how badly it's going for pretty much every other industrialised nation in the G8 or G20 group....You have the money to fund the research, it ultimately gets done sooner or later(china and india), but it doesn't matter if you have the best engineers in the world, if there's no money to spend on research and developement of new products or technologies in every field(US, canada, europe)....Countries tend to lose any technological lead they used to have that way...

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:27:00 - [124]
 

Quote:
It's 20 years of actual work experience talking first of all, and second, all engineers and designers graduating from either china or india are working for 1/3rd to 1/2 the money the same engineer working in the USA would earn with the same education, so guess what that does to developement costs of any product when everybody involved in the project is earning less than 1/2 the money, and it takes dozens if not hundreds of people to complete said project over a 3 to 5 year period...


They are working for less than 1/2 or 1/3 of what US Engineers are working for I can tell you that. I have never disputed that India and China have lower labour costs, that is quite obvious. What I was saying is that the US has the highest productivity in the world. The USA is able to put out more GDP per worker than any other country in the world. The USA cannot and should not compete on low value added manufactured trinkets.

Are there transformational competitive changes happening in the world? Of course, but you saying that the US has to offer something the ‘Chinese version’ doesn’t have is absurd. They are all the same versions in the most part, financed, designed, researched and marketed in the USA and slapped together in China or some other low cost area. Good for everybody really.

'Low cost areas’ cannot continue to compete as ‘low cost areas’ because there are upward pressure on wages so the ‘low cost areas’ have to innovate in order to mature their economy. Low cost manufacturing is just the foot in the door. So far China is having problems making this transition. Japan did it successfully. That was my point. It’s not that difficult.

Quote:
What you basically have little clue on is how fierce the job market is these days, even when you have a good education and i gave examples such as the electrical engineer i work with that has a masters degree and 10 years experience and he was 18 months working in crap jobs until he landed where i'm working at, something which btw you didn't even bother to reply....


What you fail to realize is that mature economies cannot compete with any emerging, low cost economies on the basis of price for low value added products.
Your anecdote about your friend is neither here nor there.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:32:00 - [125]
 



Quote:
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't find the article again.


Appreciate your post. I agree.
What you said is largely what I have been saying really. The USA and other advanced western nations needs to keep the innovation happening in their economies. If maunfacturing of the widget occurs in another jurisdiction I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Obviously the Dell example would be an outlier but most companies have a tighter control on their supply chain than that.

Nike is a good example. Their products are innovative and they have never made any of their shoes in the USA.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.30 17:56:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 30/08/2011 17:57:31

Originally by: Riedle


They are working for less than 1/2 or 1/3 of what US Engineers are working for I can tell you that. I have never disputed that India and China have lower labour costs, that is quite obvious. What I was saying is that the US has the highest productivity in the world. The USA is able to put out more GDP per worker than any other country in the world. The USA cannot and should not compete on low value added manufactured trinkets.



The projects those new engineers that are coming out of university are getting fully financed, and it isn't just trinkets anymore, that's the point you're missing...In case you haven't noticed, china has a fully developed space program and intends to put astronauts on the moon before the USA does...


It has in house developed nuclear weapons with a 4000 mile range, and builds it's own nuclear submarines and also has cruise missiles specifically built to take down aircraft carriers, and is also developing their own reconnaisance drones similar to the 220 million dollar RQ-4, as well as the J-20 stealth fighter and you can bet on the last not just being built to 187 units like the F22(initial order for the F22 was 700 planes), or that they won't export the craft to friendly nations.....Add the aircraft carriers they're building and even spy satellites wich they have the ability to design/built and launch...


And yes the USA version has to offer something extra that the chinese version doesn't simply because the built in USA model will cost more to produce given the higher engineering costs and the higher production costs too.....It's a reality and that's the end of it.



Quote:


What you fail to realize is that mature economies cannot compete with any emerging, low cost economies on the basis of price for low value added products.
Your anecdote about your friend is neither here nor there.



Chine used to be an emerging economy 20+ years ago... Not anymore.

If industrialised nations with mature economies hadn't cut their research and development budgets so much, they could have kept tthat technological lead going, but the fact is china is catching up fast since their economy is still booming even right now, and you'd think it would also slow down since the countries it's exports it's goods too aren't exactly in great shape, with their economies growing very slowly at the cost of massive yearly deficits and getting buried deeper into debt levels they'll never get out of, but china remains largely unaffected.....

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.30 23:48:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer

Chine used to be an emerging economy 20+ years ago... Not anymore.

If industrialised nations with mature economies hadn't cut their research and development budgets so much, they could have kept tthat technological lead going, but the fact is china is catching up fast since their economy is still booming even right now, and you'd think it would also slow down since the countries it's exports it's goods too aren't exactly in great shape, with their economies growing very slowly at the cost of massive yearly deficits and getting buried deeper into debt levels they'll never get out of, but china remains largely unaffected.....

I am afraid Reidle is right.

Chinese carrier is Soviet designed, Soviet built.

Chinese carrier based fighter is Soviet designed, Soviet built, Chinese bought the prototype from Ukraine after USSR was dissolved.

No offense mate, but I don't see Chinese innovation when all Chinese are doing is buying things that others researched, but could not put into production because they ran out of money and don't need it anymore.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.31 02:07:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Caleidascope
Originally by: digitalwanderer

Chine used to be an emerging economy 20+ years ago... Not anymore.

If industrialised nations with mature economies hadn't cut their research and development budgets so much, they could have kept tthat technological lead going, but the fact is china is catching up fast since their economy is still booming even right now, and you'd think it would also slow down since the countries it's exports it's goods too aren't exactly in great shape, with their economies growing very slowly at the cost of massive yearly deficits and getting buried deeper into debt levels they'll never get out of, but china remains largely unaffected.....

I am afraid Reidle is right.

Chinese carrier is Soviet designed, Soviet built.

Chinese carrier based fighter is Soviet designed, Soviet built, Chinese bought the prototype from Ukraine after USSR was dissolved.

No offense mate, but I don't see Chinese innovation when all Chinese are doing is buying things that others researched, but could not put into production because they ran out of money and don't need it anymore.



Fine i can give credit to riedle about the carrier, but keep in mind that there's 2 more carriers being built from the ground up by the chinese(bigger ones at that), and the fighters to take off from said carrier are chinese made too(J11 BH's i think), though they still use russian made engines...Here's the link:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11


China isn't a nation that's primarily worried about finding factory jobs for it's people to make items designed in the west anymore....They have their own technology base and unlike what some seem to think, aren't as far behind as you'd might imagine and they are improving fast and have the money to do so as well....


Here's what i mentioned earlier with the soar dragon:

http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-chinese-hale-high-altitude-long.html


And the j20 fighter, first seen in 1997 but flew for the first time last year:


http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2011/04/chinese-j-20-mighty-dragon-is-fifth.html


And an attack helicopter that's similar to the eurocopter and augusta A 129 versions...The Z10


http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2011/04/chinese-z-10-gunship-helicopter.html


China isn't a technologically outdated pushover anymore basically....Wink




Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only