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Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.20 23:34:00 - [91]
 

Quote:

Even at 1%, the interest is still 200 billion dollars a year, so it's not chump change no matter how low the interest rate is anymore, and assuming it's that "low", it's still about 10% of the yearly federal budget just on interest charges and the overall debt never gets smaller, so cough up another 200 billion next year, and the year after that too, and so on.


Exactly. I am not arguiing with you that it is a problem all I said was that Europe is even worse.
All Western Countries need to reduce spending considerably.

Quote:
One can do a lot of stuff with 200 billion in funding job creation(as an example),rather than paying it in interest charges...


Again, not sure your point as I am not arguiing it.

Quote:
Either increase the age of retirement as far as collecting your full pension, so that the person in question works several more years while continuing to deduct taxes towards their retirement, a strategy used in many countries....Even where i am in canada, the retirement age went from 63 years to 67 years over the past 20 years, and i have no doubt it'll keep going up..


I am from Canada as well but you can retire at any age you feel like. Are you speaking about provincial pensions because the federal government pensions have not changes yet as far as I know. In any case yes, the retirement age will likely have to go up. What you are going to see more of is Defined constribution Pension Plans instead of Defined Benefit Pension plans. The migration has been ongoing for years now. Bell Canada employees moved over about 10 years ago for example. As usualy government employees will be the last but it will happen and not just in Canada. This move alone would save billions.

How about saving and funding your own retirement. The majority of the private sector has been doing that for decades just fine thank you very much.

Kora Zilesti
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:43:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
Originally by: Bane Necran
Originally by: Ayieka
because jet fuel is expensive and because carriers are awesome.


Jet fuel is just kerosene.


oh wow, yeah. google says the its only like 3 bucks a gallon.
Well, when you load 10,000 gallons onto an aircraft for a single flight (as AC-130 gunships do on a daily basis), it can get a little expensive.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:17:00 - [93]
 

Since we were talking about carriers, letīs put that 200 billion into perspective.....Itīs enough to build aand fit out 10 nimitz class supercarriers every year....That includes all the equipement onboard and the 100 planes in can carry, and then to the same in 2012 and 2013 ans so on....Razz



As for china and itīs political system having improved relative to when tienamen square riots happened in 1989, it hasnīt since people arenīt free to protest issues they donīt agree with in public, they can be arrested without being charged with anything and only have access to a lawyer 3 days after being in custody,the country only has one party with no opposition wich people can vote for openly, and the election process within the communist party itself is a closed affair that doesnīt involve the general population at all.... then add the censorship if all information from countries outside china and we have even CCP setting up their own internal server(serenity), in china for that very reason, rather that let chinese users connect to tranquility directly...



China has a open market so people can buy whatever they want, but a democracy it sure hell isnīt, though investors donīt care as long as the money stills rolls in, so ethics and morality has nothing to do with it.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.22 19:34:00 - [94]
 

Quote:
Since we were talking about carriers, letīs put that 200 billion into perspective.....Itīs enough to build aand fit out 10 nimitz class supercarriers every year....That includes all the equipement onboard and the 100 planes in can carry, and then to the same in 2012 and 2013 ans so on....Razz


Yes, the US is esentially funding China's military at thi point.

Quote:

As for china and itīs political system having improved relative to when tienamen square riots happened in 1989, it hasnīt since people arenīt free to protest issues they donīt agree with in public, they can be arrested without being charged with anything and only have access to a lawyer 3 days after being in custody,the country only has one party with no opposition wich people can vote for openly, and the election process within the communist party itself is a closed affair that doesnīt involve the general population at all.... then add the censorship if all information from countries outside china and we have even CCP setting up their own internal server(serenity), in china for that very reason, rather that let chinese users connect to tranquility directly...


Not sure who said China has improved politically since Tianamen square but it wasn't me.



Quote:
China has a open market so people can buy whatever they want, but a democracy it sure hell isnīt, though investors donīt care as long as the money stills rolls in, so ethics and morality has nothing to do with it.


Investors? Most of the companies are state owned.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:28:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 22/08/2011 20:27:59
Originally by: Riedle

Yes, the US is esentially funding China's military at thi point.


Uhm... correct me if I'm wrong, but if China's inflation rate is at 6% and the one year yield on US treasury bonds is what, less than one percent? Then China is losing money by parking their money in US debt...


digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.22 21:24:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 22/08/2011 21:26:43
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 22/08/2011 21:25:24
Originally by: Riedle


Yep, China will have less leverage to do that now that they are host to thousands of multinationals. Nothing chills the investment climate quicker than some state mass murder.




Then what's this above posted by you a few posts back if everything is state owned...Laughing

Quote:

Well yes of course you use GDP/per capita. Otherwise one would think that Luxemburg was about as prosperous as Zambia.





the reason i have a problem with that definition is that since china has 4 times the population of the USA, and since both countries are close now in terms of overall GDP, it would have to be a 60+ trillion dollar producing powerhouse to become the best/largest economy on earth.....Basically it would make the 15~16 trillion US economy look like small change by comparison...


Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:16:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 23/08/2011 12:26:35
Quote:

Then what's this above posted by you a few posts back if everything is state owned...Laughing


Well that's just because you are ignorant as to how business works in China specifically with manufacturing. Most Multinationals either contract a state owned company to build their widgets for them. Sometimes there are joint ventures but it is quite difficult for an investor in the west to 'invest' in China as the majority of these 'companies' are state owned.


Quote:
the reason i have a problem with that definition is that since china has 4 times the population of the USA, and since both countries are close now in terms of overall GDP, it would have to be a 60+ trillion dollar producing powerhouse to become the best/largest economy on earth.....Basically it would make the 15~16 trillion US economy look like small change by comparison...


Yes of course because that is a more accurate picture of how wealthy a nation is.
India's GDP is almost 4 times the size compared to that of Canada.

Which country do you think is more 'wealthy'?

This shouldn't be a difficult concept.


Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:18:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 22/08/2011 20:27:59
Originally by: Riedle

Yes, the US is esentially funding China's military at thi point.


Uhm... correct me if I'm wrong, but if China's inflation rate is at 6% and the one year yield on US treasury bonds is what, less than one percent? Then China is losing money by parking their money in US debt...




No, they are making money just not in interest on the investment. By purchasing US treasuries it puts upwards pressure on the US dollar which in turn, makes the Yuan that much cheaper.

ie: It allows China to keep the price of it's exports artifically low and therefore increase the amount of exporting that it does.

Welcome to International Finance.

Command 00
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:21:00 - [99]
 

free West Turkistan,Free Tibet,free Yi,free tibet and all others

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:41:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/08/2011 15:53:36
Originally by: Riedle
It allows China to keep the price of it's exports artifically low and therefore increase the amount of exporting that it does.


And when China decides to stop holding its currency down, that's when the proverbial SHTF. Overnight all consumer goods chains full of Chinese products will be crippled because the days of buying cheap stuff from China are gone. Walmart would probably close up shop within the week. There won't be any part of the US economy not rocked by it.

Make no mistake, US economists live in fear of a strong Yuan. China would maybe export less, but the effect on US business would be utterly disastrous. They might even have to *gasp* build factories in the US and pay Americans an honest wage. Nah, i'm sure they'd sooner declare bankruptcy than do that.Laughing

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:51:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 23/08/2011 17:55:13
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 23/08/2011 17:53:49
Originally by: Riedle


Well that's just because you are ignorant as to how business works in China specifically with manufacturing. Most Multinationals either contract a state owned company to build their widgets for them. Sometimes there are joint ventures but it is quite difficult for an investor in the west to 'invest' in China as the majority of these 'companies' are state owned.



The point i was making is that the PRC doesn't care how companies are organized, weither they're state owned and operated or with international partnerships, they're still:

1:Going to abuse human rights.
2:Not care how many hours are worked a week or how crappy the salary is, or what are the worker benefits like.
3:It's no democracy in the least.
4:They don't care about worker safety conditions or how much they pollute the environment.


THe list goes goes on and on, and even if there are some small changes, they're happening extremely slowly and even if someday,it matches what happends in other more democratic countries and it affects profits, foreign investors simply move to another country like vietnam or cambodia and start the whole process over again just like they did with china.....Those jobs are never coming back to the USA or canada or europe, that's for sure.


Quote:


Yes of course because that is a more accurate picture of how wealthy a nation is.
India's GDP is almost 4 times the size compared to that of Canada.

Which country do you think is more 'wealthy'?

This shouldn't be a difficult concept.





Well it's matter of perspective, and read this article and what the total GDP of all the countries combined is, and you'll see that if china ever reaches that 60+ trillion level, it basically owns the world in economic terms....the current total for all countries is a little over 62 trillion btw...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_ nominal


China says jump and the rest of the world says "how high?"....Razz

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:37:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 24/08/2011 12:39:51
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 24/08/2011 12:38:22
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22522


Really says it all just how powerfull china already is right now, never mind if their economy grows even larger still.....Both the USA and individual companies play by china's rules basically....


Edit: Seems the link doesn't work, but copy and paste it into your browser and you'll see...

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.25 11:56:00 - [103]
 

Quote:
And when China decides to stop holding its currency down, that's when the proverbial SHTF. Overnight all consumer goods chains full of Chinese products will be crippled because the days of buying cheap stuff from China are gone. Walmart would probably close up shop within the week. There won't be any part of the US economy not rocked by it.


No, not even close. The US wants to have China's dollar inflate relative to the US dollar precisely because it will make Chinese goods less competitive. There are many other low cost areas for manufacturing disposable junk. Indonesia and Malaysia as previously mentioned are already lower cost and increasing in popularity. Walmary would not be going anywhere. lol
You may have heard Hillary Clinton and B.O complaining about the artifically low Yaun only last year - this is why. Maunfacturing plants in the USA are much more efficient as well so if the Yuan was at a true market valuation and was higher the thought is that more manufacturing in the USA could start up again as well for 'medium worth' durable goods. Then take into account increased fuel costs etc.

Quote:
Make no mistake, US economists live in fear of a strong Yuan.


Not any economists who are concerned with the trade deficit between the USA and China.

Quote:
China would maybe export less, but the effect on US business would be utterly disastrous. They might even have to *gasp* build factories in the US and pay Americans an honest wage. Nah, i'm sure they'd sooner declare bankruptcy than do that.Laughing


No, a higher yuan would be a net benefit to the USA no question.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.25 12:05:00 - [104]
 


Quote:
The point i was making is that the PRC doesn't care how companies are organized, weither they're state owned and operated or with international partnerships
,

Incorrect. China, specifically the communist party of the Chinese army runs/owns many of these state owned companies. They very much care how these companies are organized because most of the leadership of the Communist party owns part of them. Plus, if they screw up majorly they are often killed by the state. Nice working conditions eh?



Quote:
1:Going to abuse human rights.
2:Not care how many hours are worked a week or how crappy the salary is, or what are the worker benefits like.
3:It's no democracy in the least.
4:They don't care about worker safety conditions or how much they pollute the environment.


Yes, I don't know why you insist on shadow boxing because I'm not sure what point of mine you are trying to debate. China should get it's act together and allow it's citizens to have basic human rights that the rest of us in the west take for granted. I have never argued this.


Quote:
THe list goes goes on and on, and even if there are some small changes, they're happening extremely slowly and even if someday,it matches what happends in other more democratic countries and it affects profits, foreign investors simply move to another country like vietnam or cambodia and start the whole process over again just like they did with china.....Those jobs are never coming back to the USA or canada or europe, that's for sure.


If by 'those jobs' you mean mass produced non-value added low cost manufacturing jobs then yes I agree with you. But I am not sure why we would want them to come back in any case.

Quote:
Well it's matter of perspective, and read this article and what the total GDP of all the countries combined is, and you'll see that if china ever reaches that 60+ trillion level, it basically owns the world in economic terms....the current total for all countries is a little over 62 trillion btw...


Well that's a silly statment to make. If China had the same GDP per capita of the USA then it's GDP would be aproximately 4 times the size of the USA's. It will take decades to get there if it ever does. Like I said China has many challenges ahead of it on it's road to become a first world nation and it's still not entirely sure if they will be able to do it.
But in your imaginary scenario you are forgetting that the other countries of the world will be growing during this time as well. In the same imaginary scenario India's GDP would be even bigger than China's if you follow demographic trends at all.

Quote:
China says jump and the rest of the world says "how high?"....Razz


Basically the opposite. The rest of the world says that 'tickle me elmo' is the big Christmas toy this year and China jumps to mass produce as many of them as it can as cheap as it can. Who really jumps for who here? :)

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.25 12:10:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Akita T
I'm still waiting for (nearly) unmanned, remote-controlled and partially autonomous, self-maintaining and massively redundant seafaring supercarriers with oversized nuclear reactors and a huge fleet of drones, preferably with drone fabrication lines right there on the ship.

...yes, I have probably been playing too much Total Annihilation // Supreme Commander Twisted Evil


Brofist for SupCom

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 00:35:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Riedle


Incorrect. China, specifically the communist party of the Chinese army runs/owns many of these state owned companies. They very much care how these companies are organized because most of the leadership of the Communist party owns part of them. Plus, if they screw up majorly they are often killed by the state. Nice working conditions eh?



Not in terms of caring about foreign investors concerns like you mentioned earlier, that's my point.



Quote:

Yes, I don't know why you insist on shadow boxing because I'm not sure what point of mine you are trying to debate. China should get it's act together and allow it's citizens to have basic human rights that the rest of us in the west take for granted. I have never argued this.



They could have another tienamen massacre tomorrow....Investors won't leave since they know they're making money, wich is the bottom line, and the PRC knows it fully, and look at the last article i posted, where even with large companies, China flat out says it that if you're not happy playing by our rules, then **** off and lose access to our market....


Quote:

If by 'those jobs' you mean mass produced non-value added low cost manufacturing jobs then yes I agree with you. But I am not sure why we would want them to come back in any case.



At this point, with the job market being as crappy as it is, even jobs making DVD or blue ray players, dish washers and fridges or any other applicances you see in the average home, would be welcome.


Quote:

Well that's a silly statment to make. If China had the same GDP per capita of the USA then it's GDP would be aproximately 4 times the size of the USA's. It will take decades to get there if it ever does. Like I said China has many challenges ahead of it on it's road to become a first world nation and it's still not entirely sure if they will be able to do it.
But in your imaginary scenario you are forgetting that the other countries of the world will be growing during this time as well. In the same imaginary scenario India's GDP would be even bigger than China's if you follow demographic trends at all.



Yuo do realise that chinas economy is still growing at about 10% even in these tough economic times right?, while other countries like the USA or canada or pretty much every european nation is barely doing 2% a year if that.....At 10% growth per year wich china has been doing sustained for about 20 years straight now(india is another doing the same btw), it takes less than 10 years to double the size of the economy, so it's not decades away from happening....


Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 11:54:00 - [107]
 


Quote:
Not in terms of caring about foreign investors concerns like you mentioned earlier, that's my point.


But you are incorrect here as well, to a degree. If they make the political environment in the USA or Western world so against China because the government did something truly atrocious to it's own people (aka another Tianamen) then they could lose a lot of business as the multinationals could be pressured to move their operations out of China as people won’t want to be seen as supporting the regime buy purchasing products made there.

So in that way, they DO care.

Quote:
They could have another tienamen massacre tomorrow....Investors won't leave since they know they're making money, wich is the bottom line, and the PRC knows it fully, and look at the last article i posted, where even with large companies, China flat out says it that if you're not happy playing by our rules, then **** off and lose access to our market....


But that is where you are looking at it too narrowly. If a company is pressured by it's customers to change its manufacturing methods because of a groundswell change in political outrage then guess who wins? Who always wins? The customer.

Quote:
At this point, with the job market being as crappy as it is, even jobs making DVD or blue ray players, dish washers and fridges or any other applicances you see in the average home, would be welcome.


Yes, but they are not low end, mass produced no value added manufacturing jobs are they?

Quote:
Yuo do realise that chinas economy is still growing at about 10% even in these tough economic times right?, while other countries like the USA or canada or pretty much every european nation is barely doing 2% a year if that.....At 10% growth per year wich china has been doing sustained for about 20 years straight now(india is another doing the same btw), it takes less than 10 years to double the size of the economy, so it's not decades away from happening....


Yes, but if you studied economic history then you would know that a sign of an undeveloped nation is high growth rates. As China becomes more developed guess what happens to it's growth rate? It goes down. China doesn't change anything about economic theory. Look at the growth rates in what is now the developed world in the 1950's for an example. You are assuming that that growth rate will keep going on when we know that is not the case. You are roght about India however. In the 2020's everyone will be talking about India, not China. China is going to get old before it gets wealthy. Not so in India.


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.26 13:24:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 26/08/2011 13:26:20


Interesting conversation ...


Just one comment ...


Most of the Chinese are materially better off than they were. They don't and they won't have political freedom as long as the communists are running things but many of them have moved up from being peasants whose job was to wade in **** all day to factory and office workers whose bodies aren't worn out when they're 45.

Given the horror that most of the 20th century was for China, most people today are relatively happy in comparison and have some real hope for the future.

For the moment - the Communists have got China's population under control (through a draconian policy of forced abortions) - my impression was that India's efforts in that direction had failed but I've not read anything about that in a while.

That will have an effect in the future as the Chinese age and their population declines but then that will probably produce a better life for those still living once the current generation has died off.

Any way ... being part of that generation ... I won't be around to see it.


Factory jobs are coming back to the US but we'll have to see how all this works out. One of the reasons for the loss of factories to other countries - was that much of the worlds industrial plants outside North America were bombed during WWII - which gave the US a tremendous economy in the post war period - but then saw a decline as the NEW factories that were built to replace those that had been destroyed in the war came on line. The thing is now - that those formally NEW factories are themselves now aging whereas the US has closed down most of it's older plants so that those which remain are relatively new.

When China gets rid of the communists they could really take off.

The odd thing - is that here in the US - we're at the moment experiencing a surge in ideological political positions which are only going to hurt us. People seem disgusted by the result but what they'll do about it remains to be seen. The next Congressional Elections in 2012 should be an indicator. But - the stupidity of the politicians from both parties here is subject for another thread so I'll not delve into that any further.


.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 15:03:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 26/08/2011 15:09:45
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 26/08/2011 15:07:28
Originally by: Riedle



But you are incorrect here as well, to a degree. If they make the political environment in the USA or Western world so against China because the government did something truly atrocious to it's own people (aka another Tianamen) then they could lose a lot of business as the multinationals could be pressured to move their operations out of China as people won’t want to be seen as supporting the regime buy purchasing products made there.

So in that way, they DO care.


If they could do that in the first place, but with china owning a lot of the USA's debt, it's kinda hard to take on truly protectionist policies(such as import taxes on anything made in china for instance), until they get that debt issue resolved first...

Quote:


But that is where you are looking at it too narrowly. If a company is pressured by it's customers to change its manufacturing methods because of a groundswell change in political outrage then guess who wins? Who always wins? The customer.



Absolutely true, but the customer is pretty narrow minded too and takes the short term view(as always), since he/she wants to buy stuff at the cheapest possible price to begin with, with this generation of customers at least.

Quote:


Yes, but they are not low end, mass produced no value added manufacturing jobs are they?


Absolutely, but it's those kind of jobs that made america's economy boom in the 1950's/60's/70's, where if you even suggested that a customer from that generation should buy something from a foreign country, they'd never do it even if it was cheaper and just as good quality wise, and that mentality held on until the early 1980's... it was also the same from anything made in japan too while we're at it.


The thing to note in the above is that if enough people had that behaviour(and they did back in the day),manufacturers also kept they're factories in the country for the same reason, as if they moved overseas, they know that people wouln't buy their stuff anyhow, but i believe it would also had the long term effect of having more jobs locally for the next generation of workers too, even if they were low end, since the factories were here.


The sad fact is that higher end jobs such as doctors,lawyers, enginneers and more....There isn't enough demand for them even if people stayed in school a lot longer and completed colledge and university and i personally know a fair amount of them that once they graduated, they had to work in bars,restaurants and sales for at least a couple of years, while searching for the job they studied for all those years...Some have found them after all that time, some haven't unfortunately...


Quote:

Yes, but if you studied economic history then you would know that a sign of an undeveloped nation is high growth rates. As China becomes more developed guess what happens to it's growth rate? It goes down. China doesn't change anything about economic theory. Look at the growth rates in what is now the developed world in the 1950's for an example. You are assuming that that growth rate will keep going on when we know that is not the case. You are roght about India however. In the 2020's everyone will be talking about India, not China. China is going to get old before it gets wealthy. Not so in India.





Absolutely true, but we've had 3 recessions in the past 20 years, with the major one being the 2008 crash, yet despite that china exports a lot of goods to the very countries that got most affected by this last big one, wich in the USA alone cost 6 million jobs, it's still cranking out an impressive growth rate just the same and i do believe it will eventually slow down, but not anytime soon....


There's even some economists that fear that we're heading into another recession soon and most industrialised nattions haven't recovered fully from the 2008 one and we're almost in 2012 now.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:13:00 - [110]
 

Quote:
If they could do that in the first place, but with china owning a lot of the USA's debt, it's kinda hard to take on truly protectionist policies(such as import taxes on anything made in china for instance), until they get that debt issue resolved first...


You misunderstand me. I am talking about the people. If the people of Europe and/Europe get so disgusted about an action that the Chinese government makes then it could become a groundswell, grassroots boycott of companies that have things made in China. I am not talking about political actions in the same manner as you. China is aware of it's image around the world now because they have to be.

Quote:
Absolutely true, but the customer is pretty narrow minded too and takes the short term view(as always), since he/she wants to buy stuff at the cheapest possible price to begin with, with this generation of customers at least.


Customers buy through value both real and perceived. If consumers only ever wanted the cheapest price SONY would not be one of the leading electronics manufactures for example. In anycase if you remember the NIKE working condition fiascos over a decade ago you will know what I am talking about.

Quote:
Absolutely, but it's those kind of jobs that made america's economy boom in the 1950's/60's/70's, where if you even suggested that a customer from that generation should buy something from a foreign country, they'd never do it even if it was cheaper and just as good quality wise, and that mentality held on until the early 1980's... it was also the same from anything made in japan too while we're at it.


Well that is not a healthy way to make buying decisions either for the individual or the marketplace. The customer should buy the product that they perceive gets them the most value for the dollar no matter where it was made.

Quote:
The thing to note in the above is that if enough people had that behaviour(and they did back in the day),manufacturers also kept they're factories in the country for the same reason, as if they moved overseas, they know that people wouln't buy their stuff anyhow, but i believe it would also had the long term effect of having more jobs locally for the next generation of workers too, even if they were low end, since the factories were here.


I think you believe that the only reason that more everyday things were manufactured in North America previously was because of the attitude of consumers. I don't feel that to be the case. It's competition. For example when the Japanese auto manufacturers first came to North America the big three laughed at them.

To their own folly. Competition is important and rules barring true competition from occurring based on silly nationalist notions almost always end badly for the nation who imposes them. Specifically when Honda and Toyota started to really eat Detroit’s lunch the US enacted legislation only allowing Toyota and Honda to have x number of models to be imported under that badge. Guess what that did? It gave us Acura and Lexus. lol
The Big three should have been focused on competing with the Japanese Auto Manufactures not getting the government to protect them from competition as it never works how it is intended. Hubris made the big three suffer. They do not suffer from this any longer.

Quote:
The sad fact is that higher end jobs such as doctors,lawyers, enginneers and more....There isn't enough demand for them even if people stayed in school a lot longer and completed colledge and university and i personally know a fair amount of them that once they graduated, they had to work in bars,restaurants and sales for at least a couple of years, while searching for the job they studied for all those years...Some have found them after all that time, some haven't unfortunately...


Then there is an issue with them, not the job market. History majors? sure. Engineers should not have long term employment issues.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:16:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 26/08/2011 17:17:46
Quote:
Absolutely true, but we've had 3 recessions in the past 20 years, with the major one being the 2008 crash, yet despite that china exports a lot of goods to the very countries that got most affected by this last big one, wich in the USA alone cost 6 million jobs, it's still cranking out an impressive growth rate just the same and i do believe it will eventually slow down, but not anytime soon....


Recessions are a natural part of a mature capitalist society. You have to have the recessions to have the good times. Trying to foolishly avoid the lessons of a recession just leads you to more trouble and a longer, more drawn out recession. See the 'stimulus' fiasco that we are not reeping the whirlwind of. Keynesians have been proven wrong. Again.

Quote:
There's even some economists that fear that we're heading into another recession soon and most industrialised nattions haven't recovered fully from the 2008 one and we're almost in 2012 now


Yup, entirely caused by Keynesians and statist bleeding the finite resources of government in the interest of avoiding economic reality.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:20:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Riedle
Quote:
Absolutely true, but we've had 3 recessions in the past 20 years, with the major one being the 2008 crash, yet despite that china exports a lot of goods to the very countries that got most affected by this last big one, wich in the USA alone cost 6 million jobs, it's still cranking out an impressive growth rate just the same and i do believe it will eventually slow down, but not anytime soon....


Recessions are a natural part of a mature capitalist society. You have to have the recessions to have the good times. Trying to foolishly avoid the lessons of a recession just leads you to more trouble and a longer, more drawn out recession. See the 'stimulus' fiasco that we are not reeping the whirlwind of. Keynesians have been proven wrong. Again.





Yet China's economy still grew in those world wide recessions by the same amount anyhow, even in 2008 wich was classified as the worst thing to happen since the great depression in 1929....That's my point.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:41:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Riedle


You misunderstand me. I am talking about the people. If the people of Europe and/Europe get so disgusted about an action that the Chinese government makes then it could become a groundswell, grassroots boycott of companies that have things made in China. I am not talking about political actions in the same manner as you. China is aware of it's image around the world now because they have to be.


So you're expecting the people to do this voluntarily since the goverment has it's hands tied on this one?.....It's possible i guess but i wouldn't bet on it.

Quote:


Customers buy through value both real and perceived. If consumers only ever wanted the cheapest price SONY would not be one of the leading electronics manufactures for example. In anycase if you remember the NIKE working condition fiascos over a decade ago you will know what I am talking about.





I talked with people that are in their 60's and 70's now and they wouldn't touch anything not engineered,marketed and mass produced in the country they live in,period.....That mentality has changed immensely since then of course, and with it comes more competition world wide wich is good for the end consumer, but there's also their disadvantages too, such as less job availability and companies investing locally....There's no perfect solution here


Quote:

Well that is not a healthy way to make buying decisions either for the individual or the marketplace. The customer should buy the product that they perceive gets them the most value for the dollar no matter where it was made.



They got it cheaper from china with the same features and reliability for a lower price, so that's all they need to know or care about.

Quote:


I think you believe that the only reason that more everyday things were manufactured in North America previously was because of the attitude of consumers. I don't feel that to be the case. It's competition. For example when the Japanese auto manufacturers first came to North America the big three laughed at them.


Not just the big 3, but end consumers too since like i wrote just now, they wouldn't be caught dead driving those things, even more so because their first products released in the early 1970's were authentic pieces of crap in size, features, and being a car people enjoy driving to begin with...Here's an example:

http://honda600source.com/


Quote:

To their own folly. Competition is important and rules barring true competition from occurring based on silly nationalist notions almost always end badly for the nation who imposes them. Specifically when Honda and Toyota started to really eat Detroit’s lunch the US enacted legislation only allowing Toyota and Honda to have x number of models to be imported under that badge. Guess what that did? It gave us Acura and Lexus. lol
The Big three should have been focused on competing with the Japanese Auto Manufactures not getting the government to protect them from competition as it never works how it is intended. Hubris made the big three suffer. They do not suffer from this any longer.


The auto industry is different in that in order for companies like toyota and honda(amoung others of course),to sell cars here while avoiding a 10% import tax, they have to be built here and use at least 75% of parts actually made locally....Basically there is some serious goverment protection for the car industry, otherwise we'd see practically no factories there too.

Quote:


Then there is an issue with them, not the job market. History majors? sure. Engineers should not have long term employment issues.



Tell that to a collegue of mine(i work in the avaiation industry), who has a major's degree in electrical engineering with already 10+ years of actual experience and it took 18 months to find his current job where i work....Yes even the aviation sector got hit hard,even though the company provides parts for some military

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:43:00 - [114]
 

type that link i posted in your browser....ugh

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:11:00 - [115]
 


Quote:

Yet China's economy still grew in those world wide recessions by the same amount anyhow, even in 2008 wich was classified as the worst thing to happen since the great depression in 1929....That's my point.


Yes, my counter point was that they are not a mature capitalist society. They are a developing country.
India’s growth rates kept very high as well. Same with Brazil. It’s not unique to China.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:21:00 - [116]
 

Quote:
So you're expecting the people to do this voluntarily since the goverment has it's hands tied on this one?.....It's possible i guess but i wouldn't bet on it.


There would definitely be a consumer backlash should there be another Tianamen Square incident.

Quote:
I talked with people that are in their 60's and 70's now and they wouldn't touch anything not engineered,marketed and mass produced in the country they live in,period.....That mentality has changed immensely since then of course, and with it comes more competition world wide wich is good for the end consumer, but there's also their disadvantages too, such as less job availability and companies investing locally....There's no perfect solution here


Yep. Mostly it's a hang on to the perceived quality. American or Canadian made used to mean it was the best for ordinary everyday thing. Now you have to make things that are very skill intensive with a ton a value add to compete in the golbal economy. Things like Cars, Aviation, Software, etc etc. Things that need constant innovation and can't have cheap knock-offs. Would you feel safe in a Chinese made plane? :)

Quote:

They got it cheaper from china with the same features and reliability for a lower price, so that's all they need to know or care about.

Exactly. And they should do that, guilt free. I do.

Quote:
Not just the big 3, but end consumers too since like i wrote just now, they wouldn't be caught dead driving those things, even more so because their first products released in the early 1970's were authentic pieces of crap in size, features, and being a car people enjoy driving to begin with...Here's an example:


Exactly but they got better until they surpassed the big three. However the Japanese did eventually force the big three to address their structural weaknesses. That's why competition is good for everyone.

Look at Hyundai when the introduced the Pony in the 80's. That was crap. Now they are beating on Toyota and Honda badly.


Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.26 20:03:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Akita T
I'm still waiting for (nearly) unmanned, remote-controlled and partially autonomous, self-maintaining and massively redundant seafaring supercarriers with oversized nuclear reactors and a huge fleet of drones, preferably with drone fabrication lines right there on the ship.

...yes, I have probably been playing too much Total Annihilation // Supreme Commander Twisted Evil


Or the near Magnetic launch catapults Ive heard of

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.26 23:13:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 26/08/2011 23:21:06
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 26/08/2011 23:19:07
Originally by: Riedle


There would definitely be a consumer backlash should there be another Tianamen Square incident.


Enough backlash for a long enough time to make the chinese government think twice about doing it is the question here....I don't doubt that there would be in the short term, but we live in such a fast paced society that hears about so much bad stuff happening all around us worldwide that it all becomes rather overwhelming to say the least....

Quote:


Yep. Mostly it's a hang on to the perceived quality. American or Canadian made used to mean it was the best for ordinary everyday thing. Now you have to make things that are very skill intensive with a ton a value add to compete in the golbal economy. Things like Cars, Aviation, Software, etc etc. Things that need constant innovation and can't have cheap knock-offs. Would you feel safe in a Chinese made plane? :)



Well, china now owns car companies like jaguar, wich used to be owned by ford until they downsized because of the 2008 recession.....Something tells me that with all the research they can learn from buying the jaguar brand and all it's technology and fabrication facilities in the UK, it can speed up car releases designed/built in china that are actually worth buying in the future...

As for planes, you'd be right i wouldn't be caught dead in one of those things, but mainly because of the lack of controls in terms of certification that the FAA and NTSB impose on plane builders wich is very severe for new civilian plane models rolling out of tthe assembly line.

For instance, Mcdonnel douglas once built civilian airliners until the end of the 1980's with the DC8 and DC9 planes, wich had a several accidents related to the faulty hinges on the cargo bay doors when the fuselage was pressurized as the plane gained altitude and the doors simply blew right open causing explosive decompression in the cabin....Turns out the management at the company knew it was an issue to be resolved but never did anything about it until the FAA and NTSB investigated the problem and found the cause and proved that the company knew about it...


And there ended the companies reputation in the civilian airline market as airline companies never bought from them again, and they now restrict themselves to military planes exclusively, and they are a US based company so they can screw up badly too, not just the chinese...Razz

If you're wondering, they made the F15 eagle and the lastest version is the silent eagle, but none built so far..

Quote:


Exactly. And they should do that, guilt free. I do.


If you want the USA to get out of the mess it's in economically, they have to do it better than the chinese by adding features that the chinese versions don't have, but they have to be something that's worth the extra money and that people are willing to pay extra for...That's the tough part in these hard economic times we live in.

Quote:


Exactly but they got better until they surpassed the big three. However the Japanese did eventually force the big three to address their structural weaknesses. That's why competition is good for everyone.

Look at Hyundai when the introduced the Pony in the 80's. That was crap. Now they are beating on Toyota and Honda badly.




True, but keep in mind that one thing that helped immensely that was out of the control of manufacturers was the oil crisis of the mid 1970's, where american cars for the most part had large displacement 6 cylinder and V8 engines, some that featured up to 2 quad barrel carburetors on them for the faster cars.....That's basically a carburetor for every one of the 8 cylinders and add the sheer size of the car and it's weight, and you'd have trouble hitting 10 miles to the gallon on a good day and less than that if you floor it all the time...Razz

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:45:00 - [119]
 

Interesting article from Asia Times
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/MH17Ad02.html

Looks like everyone and their uncle are buying subs and anti ship cruise missiles :)

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.28 23:13:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 28/08/2011 23:13:31
Quote:
If you want the USA to get out of the mess it's in economically, they have to do it better than the chinese by adding features that the chinese versions don't have, but they have to be something that's worth the extra money and that people are willing to pay extra for...That's the tough part in these hard economic times we live in.


This doesn't even make sense. What are you talking about?

What product?

Do you mean the iPhone? American product that is developed, marketed, financed, researched in the USA and slapped together in China. Is that a Chinese product to you? lol

There is one Chinese electronics company that I can think of that does all that in China and slaps their products together there as well. That's lenovo and they were actually started in Hong Kong years ago and the laptops they built they bought from an American company, IBM.

That's my whole point. There are hardly any 'Chinese' companies that actually develops anything.
For the vast majority of cases they just assemble products that are developed elsewhere.

This is one of the things that China has to change and so far they have been unable to do so. One cannot say the same about Japan when they were developing, they had a ton of innovative companies from Sony to Toshiba, to Suzuki, to Kawasaki, to Mitsubishi to Panasonic to Toyota, etc etc etc.

You can't say the same for China and that's a problem for them.

The fact that you are oblivious to this just speaks to your ignorance on the subject and I honestly don't even know why you continue to post about it.
The only thing I get from your posts is China good, USA bad. Not very interesting to me tbh.


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