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blankseplocked [Proposal] AFK Cloakers nerf solutions (no macro can avoid).
 
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Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.14 20:05:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Kyr Evotorin on 14/08/2011 20:08:39
Originally by: Cynoska McNamara

I like your answer.
But the intel data that a cloaked pilot could collect without be hunted is unfair anyway.



This is not even relevant to the subject of this thread. but to answer your question, intel gathering is a vital part of operations and has always been vital.
But just to humor myself, if this were relevant to the thread... it would sound something like...
"But the intel that a cloaked "AFK" pilot could collect without being hunted is unfair anyways"
cept... he's not at his keyboard collecting intel.

If he were at his keyboard... collecting intel, there are still ways to catch him. On his way out of the system. System lock downs work both ways. It is possible to catch them, just not easy... which would be the complaint. It is not easy. which isn't valid, because CCP has made it clear, this is a game where a group would fair better than a single person.

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
You have the same ability to spy on others, perfectly balanced.

^ This.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Heard that as well before CCP nerfed virtually free kills in hisec with the CONCORD buff. Nothing new from the Pro-AFK exploit crowd.

CCP made a valid point with the policing abilities of CONCORD as well, don't forget that part.

Pro AFK Exploit Crowd?
1. Just because someone isn't FOR a nerf, doesn't mean they are PRO to the suggested nerf. The nerf is fairly neutral, but it would be a waste of CCP's time. It's unneccessary considering that they likely (this is all conjecture) might mangle any fix they make to AFK cloakers with future releases (the chatter about local getting changed soon due to in-station stuff), and that they also haven't fixed it yet, which makes sense (see my above post).
2. AFKing isn't an exploit. Actually, I find it logically deserves it's own term considering the way it works within definition. An exploit (on the internet at least) involves doing something unintended in the game, in the basic sense. Now... If you are AFK, you are not doing anything in the game. In fact... You can't if you are away from keyboard. Calling it an exploit just brings up people getting their jollies over calling you an idiot for terming AFKing an exploit. I don't see many people explaining themselves. Sure, it affects people, in-game, but they technically are doing nothing if they truly are afk. which leaves it to be quite a loophole?
EDIT: I mean, how many years has it been? That people have been calling it an exploit and others have been laughing at them for calling it such? Sure it could be deemed an exploit in a sense, but more logically... it isn't.
(I think 4 years... maybe 5 years now)

I hope I didn't go on any tangents. proof reading is for the real world. not games.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.14 20:52:00 - [92]
 

A couple of you here need to prove that it is an exploit.

It's been requested more than once.

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:21:00 - [93]
 

Proof that it is an exploit would involve CCP stating such. I am unaware of such an event, but I would love to see a link if anyone has one. Otherwise, no one can call it an exploit. I believe we must assume that it is "Working as intended" if you are trying to be politically correct.

Remember that this is a 4+ year old subject so there is a lot of QQ to sort through :\

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:34:00 - [94]
 

I have just as much proof that AFK cloaking is a type of potato as these people do that is is an exploit.

Alx Warlord
Posted - 2011.08.15 04:44:00 - [95]
 

Make a T2 probe that can detect cloaked ships, also make it realy weak that it would take a couple of minutes to have a 100% lock. or make the cloaking device reduce the signature of the ship to have this effect, also greatly increases the probing time. so you would be able to take down the afk cloakers and keep the active cloakers moving.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.15 06:52:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: OMGWTFResearch on 15/08/2011 06:56:31
I have heard a good suggestion for another T2 Destroyer or a module that only fits the Destroyer to find the AFK cloakers. (Best solution would be to cause a decloak if scan is successful forcing another scan with combat probes) This would be quite fair in implementation in my opinion if the cost in skills and module is high to prevent abuse to find legit cloakers who are not AFK.

Edit: To clarify on the decloak. I have heard that one of the reasons AFK cloaking has not been removed is due to how cloaking is implemented. Thus my guess is the best solution is a find on a random point in space causes the module to switch off and go into a short cooldown. This will not stop a marco from just recloaking but then it is as easy as clicking "report bot" to fix that. This would not affect those who are legitimately using the cloak due to the time it would take to find this point. The warning would help those who are doing activities such as spying on POS structures so they have time to move before the cloak fails.

I would not mind having to move probes for an hour or have to train for months to do so. If I have a CHANCE against someone who is AFK I will gladly do the training and get the isk to get that trophy.

That would make AFK cloaking not an exploit but a risky maneuver because you wont know if someone will bring in a stealth breaker to find you.


Hell, give the cloakers one more advantage with a message popping up saying "Cloak will soon be compromised" Remove the incentive to go AFK and we can talk.

I am not against tactics such as logoffski or cloaked intel gathering or quick attacks against idiots not checking local that are legitimate uses of the cloak. What I am against is the exploiting of the fact that cloaks don't time out and be able to do other things outside of game until the enemy just cant spam Dscan or sit at the POS anymore.

You should NEVER be able to get virtually free ganks or free effect by not being active in the client. If you cant bother to turn your cloak back on before the enemy finds you. You deserve to lose your stealth.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:06:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
That would make AFK cloaking not an exploit but a risky maneuver because you wont know if someone will bring in a stealth breaker to find you.

It already isn't an exploit.

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
I am not against tactics such as logoffski or cloaked intel gathering or quick attacks against idiots not checking local that are legitimate uses of the cloak. What I am against is the exploiting of the fact that cloaks don't time out and be able to do other things outside of game until the enemy just cant spam Dscan or sit at the POS anymore.

Cloaking up IS a legitimate use of the cloak, that's what the module is for.

You might as well campaign against people making use of the advantages of shield hardeners by using them to mitigate incoming damage from NPC's for exploitative farming where their ships don't blow up.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:13:00 - [98]
 

Proposal:

Make shield hardeners randomly overheat

make turrets randomly jam and require a repair in order to turn back on

require fuel for all ships

mining crystals explode and have a chance to destroy the ship using them if they are not swapped out before expiring, mining crystals can randomly overheat and need a coolant injection to bring them down to normal safe temperatures

make shield modules randomly fluctuate signature radius bloom

make npc's randomly call in backup that can instapop your ship but give you a 3 second warning message

randomly log players out of the game to make sure they aren't just idling

all this will make sure people are at their keyboards and pushing buttons and looking at the screen.

this will stop people exploiting the easily killed npc's and easily mined asteroids in the game.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:21:00 - [99]
 

Those suggestions belong in another thread. Not one about the AFK Cloak exploit. Also note CCP plans for Winter 2011. More changes than possible Cloak changes will come ya know.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:24:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Those suggestions belong in another thread. Not one about the AFK Cloak exploit. Also note CCP plans for Winter 2011. More changes than possible Cloak changes will come ya know.

It's possible they will give us flower picking and wild snakes.

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.15 09:57:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
Those suggestions belong in another thread. Not one about the AFK Cloak exploit. Also note CCP plans for Winter 2011. More changes than possible Cloak changes will come ya know.

It's possible they will give us flower picking and wild snakes.

You are becoming very boring and not very constructive in the discussion.
We already know that you are opposed. Constantly seek to be right is useless. We would also hear the opinions and suggestions from other players rather than doing call and response with you.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:35:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Alx Warlord
Make a T2 probe that can detect cloaked ships, also make it realy weak that it would take a couple of minutes to have a 100% lock. or make the cloaking device reduce the signature of the ship to have this effect, also greatly increases the probing time. so you would be able to take down the afk cloakers and keep the active cloakers moving.


Now cloaking devices are almost completely useless. Can I have the SP I spent on recons, bombers and blockade runners back please?

Picture this (real scenario). I'm hauling a ton of stuff around in my viator. I jump into a system with a large red gatecamp on the gate I want to use, as shown by my dscan from a safe off grid from the gate. I sit there cloaked up and go to make a sandwich, watch a movie, play a better game etc and wait for them to leave.

Why is this an exploit?

With these magical probes, they'd find me and kill me just as fast as they would if I was flying an itty V, so there's no point in ever flying my blockade runner again. Why is this a good thing?

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:07:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Alx Warlord
Make a T2 probe that can detect cloaked ships, also make it realy weak that it would take a couple of minutes to have a 100% lock. or make the cloaking device reduce the signature of the ship to have this effect, also greatly increases the probing time. so you would be able to take down the afk cloakers and keep the active cloakers moving.


Now cloaking devices are almost completely useless. Can I have the SP I spent on recons, bombers and blockade runners back please?

Picture this (real scenario). I'm hauling a ton of stuff around in my viator. I jump into a system with a large red gatecamp on the gate I want to use, as shown by my dscan from a safe off grid from the gate. I sit there cloaked up and go to make a sandwich, watch a movie, play a better game etc and wait for them to leave.

Why is this an exploit?

With these magical probes, they'd find me and kill me just as fast as they would if I was flying an itty V, so there's no point in ever flying my blockade runner again. Why is this a good thing?

I'm sorry but this thread talk about fuel and charges on cloaking devices with 4-6h of autonomy. "Magical Probes" are on an other thread.
Anyway if you move your ship cloacked and be ACTIVE in game, they can't find you with probes too.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:16:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Alx Warlord
Make a T2 probe that can detect cloaked ships, also make it realy weak that it would take a couple of minutes to have a 100% lock. or make the cloaking device reduce the signature of the ship to have this effect, also greatly increases the probing time. so you would be able to take down the afk cloakers and keep the active cloakers moving.


Now cloaking devices are almost completely useless. Can I have the SP I spent on recons, bombers and blockade runners back please?

Picture this (real scenario). I'm hauling a ton of stuff around in my viator. I jump into a system with a large red gatecamp on the gate I want to use, as shown by my dscan from a safe off grid from the gate. I sit there cloaked up and go to make a sandwich, watch a movie, play a better game etc and wait for them to leave.

Why is this an exploit?

With these magical probes, they'd find me and kill me just as fast as they would if I was flying an itty V, so there's no point in ever flying my blockade runner again. Why is this a good thing?

I'm sorry but this thread talk about fuel and charges on cloaking devices with 4-6h of autonomy. "Magical Probes" are on an other thread.
Anyway if you move your ship cloacked and be ACTIVE in game, they can't find you with probes too.


But that is easily defeated with macros.

Anyway, are you a supporter of the other proposal where the game would pop up with a "Are you still there? please click OK if you are, otherwise you will be logged off in 10 min" if you have not clicked on a key in X amount of time?

Just wondering.

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:42:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Alx Warlord
Make a T2 probe that can detect cloaked ships, also make it realy weak that it would take a couple of minutes to have a 100% lock. or make the cloaking device reduce the signature of the ship to have this effect, also greatly increases the probing time. so you would be able to take down the afk cloakers and keep the active cloakers moving.


Now cloaking devices are almost completely useless. Can I have the SP I spent on recons, bombers and blockade runners back please?

Picture this (real scenario). I'm hauling a ton of stuff around in my viator. I jump into a system with a large red gatecamp on the gate I want to use, as shown by my dscan from a safe off grid from the gate. I sit there cloaked up and go to make a sandwich, watch a movie, play a better game etc and wait for them to leave.

Why is this an exploit?

With these magical probes, they'd find me and kill me just as fast as they would if I was flying an itty V, so there's no point in ever flying my blockade runner again. Why is this a good thing?

I'm sorry but this thread talk about fuel and charges on cloaking devices with 4-6h of autonomy. "Magical Probes" are on an other thread.
Anyway if you move your ship cloacked and be ACTIVE in game, they can't find you with probes too.


But that is easily defeated with macros.

Anyway, are you a supporter of the other proposal where the game would pop up with a "Are you still there? please click OK if you are, otherwise you will be logged off in 10 min" if you have not clicked on a key in X amount of time?

Just wondering.

macros can't defeat it..
1) the charge should be fittable only with fitting tool (POS, Station)
2) a ship can store only 4-6h of fuel
What macro can work here?
Macro instead can press the OK button every X minutes (a simple Mouse click on X,Y coordinate every X minutes)

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:04:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara

You are becoming very boring and not very constructive in the discussion.
We already know that you are opposed. Constantly seek to be right is useless. We would also hear the opinions and suggestions from other players rather than doing call and response with you.
You are avoiding answering awkward questions. That's pretty damning and not at all constructive.

The whole point of finding issues with bad idea like yours, is though back and forth discussion of the facts. Something you have shown to have problems with so far.
Until you start being honest and face the question asked, you can't take the morale high ground. Wink

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:53:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara

macros can't defeat it..
1) the charge should be fittable only with fitting tool (POS, Station)
2) a ship can store only 4-6h of fuel
What macro can work here?
Macro instead can press the OK button every X minutes (a simple Mouse click on X,Y coordinate every X minutes)


Please read again. (sorry if your native language is not english)
My point on the "macro can defeat this" statement was against your statement:
Quote:
Anyway if you move your ship cloacked and be ACTIVE in game, they can't find you with probes too.

In that I meant that any mechanic that tried to detect if you are ACTIVE in the game can be defeated by macros.
Anyway, I think we misunderstood each other.

But back to the point. No, I don't want to have to buy/carry fuel just for my cloak, not to mention the fact that cargo space on my BRunner is tight already. I really don't want to make it half way into nullsec to find out that I am running out of cloak fuel. All just because a couple of miners in null don't have enough friends to organize a gate lockdown.




Spazz21
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:26:00 - [108]
 

I like the idea, if they want to grief, then make it cost something. There's always a risk or cost to everything in eve. With AFK cloakers, it's none. People are going to want to rat in Null, hence the purpose of moving out to Null. If someone wants to move out to null for the sole purpose of sitting in station because they don't know if the person is afk or not, is kinda stupid.

Sure sure, I know it's part of the risk of living in null, but then again, wheres the risk for the cov op pilot? I think the pvp in null should actually focus on that, player versus PLAYER. Not a 2nd account running 23/7 all paid for by PLEX for the reasoning it gives players a so called "tactical advantage"

I've heard these arguments forever, and quite a few always say doing this will kill the desire for Cov ops, if that's true, then I hope it does because if one is to believe a Cov ops only effectiveness is to give the illusion of pending trouble, then there is a much larger problem that needs to be solved.

Ares Heremod
Gallente
Heremod Inc
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:12:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Ares Heremod on 15/08/2011 17:40:45
@ShahFluffers- OK. I am confused. AFK means 'Away From Keyboard,' not 'Away From Komputer,' right?
Anyways, I am a highsec carebear. To get me out of 0.5 space requires a lot of courage on my part. So I might not 'get' all of your meaning on the subject, but I'm trying. But I still don't understand why even cloakers that are active and at the keyboard are that big of a problem... I have Concord to back me up, you have your alliance mates to get your back, right? So to me since you know he is there he has a higher risk of getting killed than you do. Seeing that as soon as the cloaker un-cloaked he has a high chance of getting killed. Because you already know he's there! And as for the AFKloakers... yes they are annoying, but so are the rats...

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:39:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Please read again. (sorry if your native language is not english)
My point on the "macro can defeat this" statement was against your statement:
Quote:
Anyway if you move your ship cloacked and be ACTIVE in game, they can't find you with probes too.

In that I meant that any mechanic that tried to detect if you are ACTIVE in the game can be defeated by macros.
Anyway, I think we misunderstood each other.


You're right. I misunderstood.
I understand that the fuel or charges can be a nuisance..
I live in a 0.0 system where a pirate with 5 account stay online 24/7 with cloacked stealth bombers attacking randomly weak ships or destroying drones with bombs. He stay AFK all time e sometimes attack us. We can't change system because we pay a rent for that system only.
For now he has not destroyed any vessel.. we are stronger e well organized, but this harassment is very annoying because we can never find its position. And even if we destroy his ship, he would return more bitter than before. It is probably a crazy sick player because 0 kill in 2 months.
What is the line between RPG and harassment? We only ask a tool or a fix to counter this type of behavior. Ask is a right, even if the CCP answer is NO.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:50:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 15/08/2011 19:15:45
Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Ask is a right, even if the CCP answer is NO.
Asking is indeed a right. But it has to be in a factual and honest way, not a dishonest and emotional one.

Local is being changed, the search for player ideas on this is already taking place. The issue with cloakers showing up in local has been in CCP's mind since 2007 and more than likely before.

The thing is that you basically can see that he's there, even though he's in a covert ship. But that's not enough for you, because you also want to be able to decloak him. (one could argue it's actually more info than you can handle, hence this thread)

Kyr Evotorin
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:11:00 - [112]
 

Just to clarify, the problem that people are mainly complaining about is the POSSIBILITY that a cloaker is just AFK. because there is no way to tell if he/she is afk.

fortunately... the arguments are fairly weak to support enhancing gameplay around this subject. The best argument I've seen towards this is that they can safely sit in a hostile system... UNfortunately, the times I've seen this argument in lpay, it was hidden within a butt load of QQ. /end facts.

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:48:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Mag's
But that's not enough for you, because you also want to be able to decloak him.

I'm so sorry but I don't want decloak nobody. I ask for a solution that force a cloaked pilot to PLAY and don't sit in system 24/7 cloacked. Macro can avoid AFK on/off implementation so I thinked something that a macro can't handle. ACTIVE PLAYER will be safe as now.
But ok.. CCP will never change cloack devices. I've tried.

CCP says local is being changed. Are you sure that will be something like WH systems? I hope (and think) will be more sovereignty oriented.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:53:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Originally by: Mag's
But that's not enough for you, because you also want to be able to decloak him.

I'm so sorry but I don't want decloak nobody. I ask for a solution that force a cloaked pilot to PLAY and don't sit in system 24/7 cloacked. Macro can avoid AFK on/off implementation so I thinked something that a macro can't handle. ACTIVE PLAYER will be safe as now.
But ok.. CCP will never change cloack devices. I've tried.

CCP says local is being changed. Are you sure that will be something like WH systems? I hope (and think) will be more sovereignty oriented.


Except that once something is changed that forces someone to use a macro if they want 23/7 safety cloak. Then the solution will be the report bot function. Not graceful but it works.

The probe decloak system would be VERY VERY difficult to use. You cant use it to get a gank on an experienced cloaker who is in front of the PC.

And yes CCP will fix this. It is nowhere as simple as the CONCORD buff so they need time to do it. And good suggestions how. You cant target the legitimate uses of the cloak. Just remove the incentive to walk away logged in a hostile system.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:56:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Ares Heremod

@ShahFluffers- OK. I am confused. AFK means 'Away From Keyboard,' not 'Away From Komputer,' right?
Anyways, I am a highsec carebear. To get me out of 0.5 space requires a lot of courage on my part. So I might not 'get' all of your meaning on the subject, but I'm trying. But I still don't understand why even cloakers that are active and at the keyboard are that big of a problem... I have Concord to back me up, you have your alliance mates to get your back, right? So to me since you know he is there he has a higher risk of getting killed than you do. Seeing that as soon as the cloaker un-cloaked he has a high chance of getting killed. Because you already know he's there! And as for the AFKloakers... yes they are annoying, but so are the rats...


Heh... I was a tad bored when I wrote that post. Saying "Komputer" rather than "Keyboard" was mildly amusing as I knew it would slightly tick off the OP and his/her ilk.

To the meat of your post... this whole thread is in reference to what goes on out in 0.0 to -1.0 security systems. And yes, your sentiments mirror what I was trying to get across. Smile

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.16 07:01:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Just an answer: 0.0 should be safe for nobody, right? So, if you wanna stay AFK and safe.. go back to empire!
The rules should apply to everyone.


I completely agree, also please remove POS shields and stations in nulsec! Why should you be safe in them?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.16 07:46:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
You cant target the legitimate uses of the cloak. Just remove the incentive to walk away logged in a hostile system.


That is simple enough, remove the pilots of cloaked ships from the local channel list.

BAM, no more incentive to stay logged AFK while cloaked.

CCP, FIX IT NAOW PL0X!!!11

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:19:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Cynoska McNamara
Originally by: Mag's
But that's not enough for you, because you also want to be able to decloak him.

I'm so sorry but I don't want decloak nobody. I ask for a solution that force a cloaked pilot to PLAY and don't sit in system 24/7 cloacked. Macro can avoid AFK on/off implementation so I thinked something that a macro can't handle. ACTIVE PLAYER will be safe as now.
But ok.. CCP will never change cloack devices. I've tried.

CCP says local is being changed. Are you sure that will be something like WH systems? I hope (and think) will be more sovereignty oriented.
Please stop being dishonest. Of course you want to decloak them, that's why you've set a time limit for the cloak in both your ideas.

Do you honestly think your idea wouldn't affect the active player? It would basically ruin covert ops ships.
Your ideas avoid the actual reason for AFK cloaking and in doing so, ruining the active players game.

But time is now getting shorter for the present local channel and we have yet to see what will replace it's intel function.
But if this thread is any thing to go by, you and OMGFAILResearch won't be coping well with the change. Cool

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:35:00 - [119]
 

If someone can't hit the warp button when a window or message pops up warning of impenitent decloacking they deserve to be found and destroyed. Because they are either AFK, A bot, Or plain stupid. Bad things in EVE.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:46:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
If someone can't hit the warp button when a window or message pops up warning of impenitent decloacking they deserve to be found and destroyed. Because they are either AFK, A bot, Or plain stupid. Bad things in EVE.
Wow yea, they can warp. That completely solves the decloak issue and yet again makes this idea viable even with the active player. Damn you're smart.


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