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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 10/08/2011 02:40:54

Originally by: Babyfarts Mcdougan
OK...get it..you don't like guns. But you asked for a source and you received it.


Not at all, I'm not gun crazy by any means but didnt have a problem with them during my military service. I actually enjoyed shooting the G3 tbh.

What I do have a problem with is guns in the hands of civilians.

Also, I asked for a reliable source proving mass quantities of firearms in in civilians hands do not mean more guns being used by rioters. Solid facts mind you, not anecdotes.

I havent seen anything substantial in that regard yet, all we've seen so far strongly suggests civilian gun ownership is a bad idea in case of riots as it means more guns on the streets in a highly volatile situation.




I think the onus of proof would be on you. We live in a country where guns are literally everywhere its our observation that guns arent used much at all in riots.
If your so sure that our experiences are wrong - how about presenting some examples of rioters using using guns in a western nation?

The only a few western nations have massive gun ownership. None of them frequently have serious riots. The last major riot in the US was the Rodney King riots in LA, I do remember that the there were almost no stories of rioters using guns and many stories of people guarding property with guns.
Any rioter who trys to even flash gun is always the first target of police and property owners tend to shoot them.


Then why would the brits need "guns to protect themselves"?

Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:37:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Skinae on 10/08/2011 05:39:27
Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


How many 6'6 410lb black men do your rugby teams have?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:44:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 10/08/2011 05:50:34

Originally by: Ghoest

I think the onus of proof would be on you.



Wrong, it is common courtesy that you back up the claims you make if you want to be taken serious. Since you claimed that firearms are rarely used in riots, I'd hope you can prove it with facts.

Originally by: Ghoest

The last major riot in the US was the Rodney King riots in LA, I do remember that the there were almost no stories of rioters using guns and many stories of people guarding property with guns.



Since you mention these riots, why dont you research a bit?

Someone already posted a nyt news article regarding death toll citing a tally of coroners reports in this thread, I wont repost it as the poster removed it probably since it is kinda inappropriate for these forums but its easy enough to find on google.

You'll find plenty of examples about rioters in a western nations using firearms in there.

In fact, the whole story is a shining example why they dont belong in civilian hands, including looters as well as defenders in that particular case.

Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:16:00 - [34]
 

It's funny how guns are so embedded in american culture they can't be removed, which is probably the one thing most people would want to 'wish away' yet some people still think they should be introduced to the civilized world?!

Newsflash: No modern, sane society would honestly implement this now, there are just a few who have been lumbered with it due to their ancestors mistakes.


ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:42:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Skinae
Edited by: Skinae on 10/08/2011 05:39:27
Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


How many 6'6 410lb black men do your rugby teams have?


We dont, we have 6'6 viking's, aus'ies, scotsmen ect all of which dont get a sweat on at the thought of food or running for more than 2min without a break Wink

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:53:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/08/2011 08:04:59

When I was serving in the military it was made very clear that it is only acceptable to use a firearm (with live ammo) on humans when the hostile is carrying a firearm (or equally bad stuff) himself - and even then there is going to be a criminal investigation of the case afterwards (no matter whether this happens in your home country or Afghanistan) to determine whether you did really act within reason.

In any other case the only way you are going to use your firearm is as a club or to give off warning shots into the air (which is btw the highest stage of escalation you are allowed to use when facing rioters).

Of course exceptions are made when a life is in immediate danger - but using a firearm against opponents that are unarmed/armed with clubs to protect your property is just plain wrong. The idea of some shop owner firing away at people to protect his windows from being smashed lacks any notion of commensurability.

How likely is a civilian to have the training and self-restraint to give proper warning, aim for inflicting only non-serious injuries, ... ?

I recall a semi-recent case of some old man being assaulted by a small gang of youths in his home - when they left (after taking jewelry and money) he took the opportunity and gave off one or two shots with his rifle - boom, headshot. (and he even had a gun permission, had shooting training, ... and still failed completely in the situation at hand) That's the sort of situation that I would use to explain why you generally can't give firearms into the hands of civilians.

You cannot give people means to inflict damage far beyond anything a court is allowed to impose just based on the whim of a (probably very emotional) moment.

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:27:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


As a Brit I would contradict these statements, and would point out that it confirms the poasters name. I smell a pasty faced kid who never got involved with sport of any sort...

I played baseball for many years here in the UK, and am a diehard Mets fan, as well being a diehard member of the toon army. I also follow the New England Patriots during the NFL season.

As for the patently stupid statements about gun ownership, well, they were just so ridiculous that I'm dumbfounded...

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:44:00 - [38]
 

Fun crowd-control alternatives:
  • High-pressure fire-hose of citric acid. Non-lethal and possibly tasty!
  • Position 2 trucks on both ends of a road, facing each other with rioters in the middle. Attach a wall to each truck, which spans the entire road. Drive the trucks together, forcing the rioters into an extremely tight and compact pile. Pour a chemical solution over them which deteriorates clothing. Pour a solution which gives people severe vomiting and diarrhoea.
  • 800RPM automatic flashbang grenade launcher! Aim into crowd, watch them disperse!
  • 500,000RPM rubber bullet minigun. best to keep this weapon for medium-ranged shooting.
  • Nut-cracker mine. Set it on the ground. Upon detecting a target standing above, it propels itself into the target's sensitive parts.
  • A gun which shoots millions mosquitoes genetically modified for a 10 minute lifespan. Mosquitoes are damn annoying. Dispersed rioters can be arrested later due to obvious itchy bumps.
  • High-pressure fire-hose of extremely sticky, smelly ooze. Like a stasis webifier, but medium range and disgusting!
  • Seizure gun. Apparently this weapon is under development. Aim at enemy face, pull trigger, they seizure.
  • Gas bombs which, upon inhalation, permanently reduce breast/wang size by 50%
  • Bombs which explode in cow manure.
  • A sniper rifle loaded with tasers which attach to the target, shocking them for up to 5 minute. Buries into skin. Degrades after 2 days.

Jackson Millenius
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:48:00 - [39]
 

Obviously the bat sales are up because of the need for protection from rioters.


Duh.


Selene Eine
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:56:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.


Rounders is not baseball nor the basis for baseball, as popular British myth would lead one to believe. Baseball has much closer ties to cricket and an obscure game known as townball more than anything else.

Cylide Askald
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:11:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Fun crowd-control alternatives:
  • Gas bombs which, upon inhalation, permanently reduce breast/wang size by 50%



Judging from the few girls I've seen rioting on TV, these are already in action.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:31:00 - [42]
 

We need to send in Borris, in riot gear, armed with an iron bar and riding a hire bike.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:45:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 10/08/2011 09:46:14
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/08/2011 08:04:59

When I was serving in the military it was made very clear that it is only acceptable to use a firearm (with live ammo) on humans when the hostile is carrying a firearm (or equally bad stuff) himself - and even then there is going to be a criminal investigation of the case afterwards (no matter whether this happens in your home country or Afghanistan) to determine whether you did really act within reason.

In any other case the only way you are going to use your firearm is as a club or to give off warning shots into the air (which is btw the highest stage of escalation you are allowed to use when facing rioters).

Of course exceptions are made when a life is in immediate danger - but using a firearm against opponents that are unarmed/armed with clubs to protect your property is just plain wrong. The idea of some shop owner firing away at people to protect his windows from being smashed lacks any notion of commensurability.

How likely is a civilian to have the training and self-restraint to give proper warning, aim for inflicting only non-serious injuries, ... ?

I recall a semi-recent case of some old man being assaulted by a small gang of youths in his home - when they left (after taking jewelry and money) he took the opportunity and gave off one or two shots with his rifle - boom, headshot. (and he even had a gun permission, had shooting training, ... and still failed completely in the situation at hand) That's the sort of situation that I would use to explain why you generally can't give firearms into the hands of civilians.

You cannot give people means to inflict damage far beyond anything a court is allowed to impose just based on the whim of a (probably very emotional) moment.



Whilst I find the fetishisation of firearms in some segments of the US population highly alarming, I am entirely supportive of the notion that personal safety (of life, liberty and property) are primarily the responsibility of the individual and that abdicating this responsibility to the state is one of the causes of the general feelings of impotence that many Brits (and other Europeans) labour under. Everyone should be armed for personal protection at all times. The idea that the police and/or state are even competent to protect you, your property and your freedom is purely mythological. Crime clear-up rates are incredibly low and the chances of actually getting police help in the course of being attacked are vanishingly small. By refusing to take responsibility for our own safety you contribute to a reliance culture that will inevitably turn to disillusionment when it is realised that you can't rely on the state at all. As to the example of shooting someone whilst they flee from the scene of their crime, I really have very little sympathy for anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in that position and have no problems with the risks they run being increased. Once you start playing the proportionality game you concede control of the situation to the agressor.

Obviously, as a liberal/lefty brit, I am used to almost no-one ever agreeing with me on these points except people who's politics I find nauseating Razz

Captain Megadeath
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:47:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Captain Megadeath on 10/08/2011 09:48:59
Originally by: baltec1
We need to send in Borris, in riot gear, armed with an iron bar and riding a hire bike.


No, what needs to be done is to send in water cannon, police armed with baton rounds with the Army as backup... oh but I forgot, that inhuman treatment is only reservered for one part of the United Kingdom and would never be used on people who have a direct link to what ever party will be elected into government. Rolling Eyes

Naw that sort of treatment is left to them thar paddys trying to stop the UKs version of the Klu from walking through their area. Evil or Very Mad

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:32:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: RAW23

Whilst I find the fetishisation of firearms in some segments of the US population highly alarming, I am entirely supportive of the notion that personal safety (of life, liberty and property) are primarily the responsibility of the individual and that abdicating this responsibility to the state is one of the causes of the general feelings of impotence that many Brits (and other Europeans) labour under. Everyone should be armed for personal protection at all times. The idea that the police and/or state are even competent to protect you, your property and your freedom is purely mythological. Crime clear-up rates are incredibly low and the chances of actually getting police help in the course of being attacked are vanishingly small. By refusing to take responsibility for our own safety you contribute to a reliance culture that will inevitably turn to disillusionment when it is realised that you can't rely on the state at all. As to the example of shooting someone whilst they flee from the scene of their crime, I really have very little sympathy for anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in that position and have no problems with the risks they run being increased. Once you start playing the proportionality game you concede control of the situation to the agressor.

Obviously, as a liberal/lefty brit, I am used to almost no-one ever agreeing with me on these points except people who's politics I find nauseating Razz


The "fetishisation of firearms", I really like that expression.

I'm British, left leaning, self made and still consider myself working class. I don't really find your position unusual or problematic. I entirely agree with your implication that what is necessary is 'equality of opportunity' which is something completely different from the nanny-statism of the 'academic' left which is dis-empowering.


Peri Simone
Steel Dawn Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:56:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Peri Simone on 10/08/2011 10:57:03
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Ghoest

The last major riot in the US was the Rodney King riots in LA, I do remember that the there were almost no stories of rioters using guns and many stories of people guarding property with guns.



Since you mention these riots, why dont you research a bit?

Someone already posted a nyt news article regarding death toll citing a tally of coroners reports in this thread, I wont repost it as the poster removed it probably since it is kinda inappropriate for these forums but its easy enough to find on google.


http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/04/us/riots-in-los-angeles-the-toll-some-of-50-killed-in-los-angeles-violence.html

There's the link, which I removed due to a sudden moment of "somebody's wrong on the internet" self-awareness. This topic is already being discussed in OOPE.

Ejit
Amarr
STD contractors
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:37:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Ejit on 10/08/2011 12:43:48
Originally by: Hestia Mar
As a Brit I would contradict these statements, and would point out that it confirms the poasters name. I smell a pasty faced kid who never got involved with sport of any sort...


Not that I have to but I would like to clarify that's I'm actually 37, I've been married for 13 years and the wife and I have 5 kids between the ages of 2 and 16.

I also spent most of the 90's in the army. I severed with a certain Welsh infantry regiment before moving on to specialise with the Engineers.

During that time I toured Northern Ireland and the Balkans twice, first one during the height of the troubles and ethnic cleansing (that was grim and enough to turn a man to drink...ohh wait!)

I've been using my experience to draw a comparison with the current troubles regarding UK policing. Mainly comparing their reluctance to engage in a pro active manner.

For instance. When I was peacekeeping with the UN, they'd issue pamphlets and guidelines detailing the current rules of engagement.

They were utterly ridicules and here's a real example.

UN manned checkpoint.

PVT: Sir, there is a person running down the hill towards the checkpoint.
2LT: Is the individual posing a threat?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is getting closer and appears to be holding a grenade, permission to engage?
2LT: Is he posing a threat to you at this particular moment?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is now in berserker mode and appears to have a finger in the ring pull and is extracting the safety pin.
2LT: Is he posing a threat to yours, mine or anyone's life and limb at this time?
PVT: Errr...well, I guess not at this exact second!
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the grenade has now left the persons hand and it is now inbound in our general direction, permission to engage?
2LT: Negative, person is now unarmed and not posing a threat.
PVT: Sir, grenade has now landed at our feet and is....BooM.

And that kind of reluctance to engage due to fear of offending and upsetting minority's will and does inevitably cause more trouble than it solves and is the same issue facing UK policing.

I remember watching the miner strikes in the early 80's. Police would wade into a peaceful picket line with riot shields and batons and batter the hell out of them.

How times have changed...Sad

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:42:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ejit
I remember watching the miner strikes in the early 80's. Police would wade into a peaceful picket line with riot shields and batons and batter the hell out of them.

How times have changes...Sad
Weeell… that was just because they had to do something to keep themselves warm, since the picketers weren't digging up coal to keep the heating on. Razz

Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:54:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: Skinae
Edited by: Skinae on 10/08/2011 05:39:27
Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


How many 6'6 410lb black men do your rugby teams have?


We dont, we have 6'6 viking's, aus'ies, scotsmen ect all of which dont get a sweat on at the thought of food or running for more than 2min without a break Wink



Hello Mr. Racist.

Naran Eto
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:01:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Naran Eto on 10/08/2011 13:02:51
Originally by: Mouthy Misses
Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


this seriously had me psml, best post ive read on this forum..uh ever

im english btw so i agree with it too


Rounders is only similar to baseball in the fact that you use a bat and a ball and play it on a field, it is a very different game, with different equipment, different rules and a different field.

Softball is actually the english version (although it was invented in the US too, we just kind of adopted it) of baseball and is a direct descendant of baseball, the only differences being larger and harder ball (ironic considering the games name lol) which is thrown underhand instead of overhand and a smaller diamond, apart from that it uses almost the same ruleset and scoring system.

Rounders has a different shape and smaller field, smaller balls, smaller bats, wickets like in cricket, does not have strikes (they use outs like cricket) and follows a very different ruleset and scoring system, it's more like a cross between baseball and cricket than it is a version of baseball.

Naran Eto
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:07:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Captain Megadeath
[No, what needs to be done is to send in water cannon, filled with sulphuric acid Evil or Very Mad


/fixed

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:08:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Gorki Andropov
Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: Skinae
Edited by: Skinae on 10/08/2011 05:39:27
Originally by: Ejit
Here in the UK Baseball is called Rounders and is almost entirely played by girls.

Same for American Football. Here it's called Rugby only without all the gay body armour and nut cups....Laughing

But yeah Baseball bats here are only used for cracking skulls.


How many 6'6 410lb black men do your rugby teams have?


We dont, we have 6'6 viking's, aus'ies, scotsmen ect all of which dont get a sweat on at the thought of food or running for more than 2min without a break Wink



Hello Mr. Racist.


What did he say that was racist? Seriously, don't be so fast to play that card.

At 6'6 and 410lb's, I'd imagine that person would find it hard to get around and would most likely be very unhealthy.

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:08:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ejit
Edited by: Ejit on 10/08/2011 12:43:48
Originally by: Hestia Mar
As a Brit I would contradict these statements, and would point out that it confirms the poasters name. I smell a pasty faced kid who never got involved with sport of any sort...


Not that I have to but I would like to clarify that's I'm actually 37, I've been married for 13 years and the wife and I have 5 kids between the ages of 2 and 16.

I also spent most of the 90's in the army. I severed with a certain Welsh infantry regiment before moving on to specialise with the Engineers.

During that time I toured Northern Ireland and the Balkans twice, first one during the height of the troubles and ethnic cleansing (that was grim and enough to turn a man to drink...ohh wait!)

I've been using my experience to draw a comparison with the current troubles regarding UK policing. Mainly comparing their reluctance to engage in a pro active manner.

For instance. When I was peacekeeping with the UN, they'd issue pamphlets and guidelines detailing the current rules of engagement.

They were utterly ridicules and here's a real example.

UN manned checkpoint.

PVT: Sir, there is a person running down the hill towards the checkpoint.
2LT: Is the individual posing a threat?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is getting closer and appears to be holding a grenade, permission to engage?
2LT: Is he posing a threat to you at this particular moment?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is now in berserker mode and appears to have a finger in the ring pull and is extracting the safety pin.
2LT: Is he posing a threat to yours, mine or anyone's life and limb at this time?
PVT: Errr...well, I guess not at this exact second!
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the grenade has now left the persons hand and it is now inbound in our general direction, permission to engage?
2LT: Negative, person is now unarmed and not posing a threat.
PVT: Sir, grenade has now landed at our feet and is....BooM.

And that kind of reluctance to engage due to fear of offending and upsetting minority's will and does inevitably cause more trouble than it solves and is the same issue facing UK policing.

I remember watching the miner strikes in the early 80's. Police would wade into a peaceful picket line with riot shields and batons and batter the hell out of them.

How times have changed...Sad



LOL our lives are a bit similar then - although I'm a bit (i.e. a lot) older than you, I'm also ex-Army, did NI and Cyprus for my active service, but thankfully never had the misfortune to serve with any Welsh Infantry regiments...but your life history doesn't excuse your comments about the great sport that is baseball!!! Confused

Fractal Muse
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:16:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Peri Simone

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/04/us/riots-in-los-angeles-the-toll-some-of-50-killed-in-los-angeles-violence.html

There's the link, which I removed due to a sudden moment of "somebody's wrong on the internet" self-awareness. This topic is already being discussed in OOPE.


Say or write something long enough and loud enough then some people will start believing it. Once they believe then it is right.

For example, guns aren't used by rioters, they are only used by law-abiding shop owners to shoot looters. That link is 'leftist' propaganda. Twisted Evil

CCP Fallout

Posted - 2011.08.10 13:17:00 - [55]
 

Moved from GD to OOPE.

Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:18:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
What did he say that was racist? Seriously, don't be so fast to play that card.

At 6'6 and 410lb's, I'd imagine that person would find it hard to get around and would most likely be very unhealthy.


He suggested that while a 6'6" 410lb black man would tire quicker than a white equivalent.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:19:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
I'm also ex-Army, did NI and Cyprus for my active service, but thankfully never had the misfortune to serve with any Welsh Infantry regiments...


7614 Jones? Here sir.
6351 Jones? Here sir.
1635 Jones? Here sir.
9534 Jones? Here sir.
1579 Jones? Here sir.
1953 Jones? Here sir.
1950 Jones? Here sir.
2543 Evans? Here sir.
7591 Jones? Here sir.
3614 Jones? Here sir.
5351 Jones? Here sir.
1535 Jones? Here sir.
9934 Jones? Here sir.
1279 Jones? Here sir.
1753 Jones? Here sir.
9950 Jones? Here sir.
3543 Davies? Here sir.
1191 Jones? Here sir.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:20:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 13:20:05
Originally by: Gorki Andropov
Originally by: Information Agent
What did he say that was racist? Seriously, don't be so fast to play that card.

At 6'6 and 410lb's, I'd imagine that person would find it hard to get around and would most likely be very unhealthy.


He suggested that while a 6'6" 410lb black man would tire quicker than a white equivalent.


Good thing they have forward momentum. Wink

Tian Garsk
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:22:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Tian Garsk on 10/08/2011 13:23:48
Originally by: Hestia Mar
Originally by: Ejit
Edited by: Ejit on 10/08/2011 12:43:48
Originally by: Hestia Mar
As a Brit I would contradict these statements, and would point out that it confirms the poasters name. I smell a pasty faced kid who never got involved with sport of any sort...


Not that I have to but I would like to clarify that's I'm actually 37, I've been married for 13 years and the wife and I have 5 kids between the ages of 2 and 16.

I also spent most of the 90's in the army. I severed with a certain Welsh infantry regiment before moving on to specialise with the Engineers.

During that time I toured Northern Ireland and the Balkans twice, first one during the height of the troubles and ethnic cleansing (that was grim and enough to turn a man to drink...ohh wait!)

I've been using my experience to draw a comparison with the current troubles regarding UK policing. Mainly comparing their reluctance to engage in a pro active manner.

For instance. When I was peacekeeping with the UN, they'd issue pamphlets and guidelines detailing the current rules of engagement.

They were utterly ridicules and here's a real example.

UN manned checkpoint.

PVT: Sir, there is a person running down the hill towards the checkpoint.
2LT: Is the individual posing a threat?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is getting closer and appears to be holding a grenade, permission to engage?
2LT: Is he posing a threat to you at this particular moment?
PVT: No sir.
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the guy is now in berserker mode and appears to have a finger in the ring pull and is extracting the safety pin.
2LT: Is he posing a threat to yours, mine or anyone's life and limb at this time?
PVT: Errr...well, I guess not at this exact second!
2LT: Nothing we can do then.
PVT: Sir, the grenade has now left the persons hand and it is now inbound in our general direction, permission to engage?
2LT: Negative, person is now unarmed and not posing a threat.
PVT: Sir, grenade has now landed at our feet and is....BooM.

And that kind of reluctance to engage due to fear of offending and upsetting minority's will and does inevitably cause more trouble than it solves and is the same issue facing UK policing.

I remember watching the miner strikes in the early 80's. Police would wade into a peaceful picket line with riot shields and batons and batter the hell out of them.

How times have changed...Sad



LOL our lives are a bit similar then - although I'm a bit (i.e. a lot) older than you, I'm also ex-Army, did NI and Cyprus for my active service, but thankfully never had the misfortune to serve with any Welsh Infantry regiments...but your life history doesn't excuse your comments about the great sport that is baseball!!! Confused


I'm actually welsh and in all my years in the army not once served in a welsh regiment :D started in the Royal Anglian (TA) did a couple of tours in Cyprus, joined full time with 2 Royal Green Jackets (getting used to their drill was a nightmare when i joined them!) alternating between homebase (winchester) and germany, then moved on to become a cherry beret attached to the ADU and spent most of my time at home chasing down AWOL's. Fortunately because i moved so much i narrowly missed NI tours in all three regiments, which i am very glad of, i know many squaddies who did NI tours and one of them came back the same.

Ay Liz
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:24:00 - [60]
 

"Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.", Noah Webster.


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