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E man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: E man Industries on 10/08/2011 17:45:49
One of EvE's barriers to new players and younger existing players is the perception you need x to play.
Oh I need 60million isk before I can go to low sec.
Oh I need a battle ship before I can pvp.
I need 15m skill points to join a corp.

EvEís community and CCP need to address this misconception. Because you donít need these things.

A new player should be in 0.0 or low sec because that is when things are the most affordable. You do not want to go to low sec or 0.0 with a battleship to learn the ropes...you want to learn the ropes in a t1 frigate with a stupidly cheap clone.

The most important thing for a new player to do is join a corp where they want to be that is friendly and active. A new player can do a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ
and
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1025677http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3riWfJ7CC-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK03MwJ5yIc

Skill points and ISK are not what hold people back...but people think it is.
Experience holds people, the only way to get it is to go do it. A corp will help you in this.

How do we get this message out to noobs though who still think they are ďbehindĒ.
I may have more skill points but that does not mean you canít kick my arse.

We need to tell new players this. See to many join eve and then leave because they think they need x to play.

This is not wow and you donít need to be level 80 with purples to play. You are valuable 1 day in. Do the tutorials, grab a ship and come tackle.

EvEís barrier to new players is a misconception that players hold. We need to address that!

Thanks for reading.





Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:26:00 - [2]
 

He's right, you don't need purples to play EvE, blues will suffice.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:34:00 - [3]
 

I need to log on to play?

idea
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:35:00 - [4]
 

Very nice article but just post by your CCP staff name

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:37:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Chribba
I need to log on to play?
No. Twisted Evil

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:38:00 - [6]
 

What utter cr*p...

What you mean is how do we get noobs to come lo-sec so we can have easy kills and bump our KB's!

A new player to Eve with only a few days NPC corp activity will probably not even know what 'tackle' means in the context of the game, and even then there is a definite skill to be able to tackle a ship, especially one flown by a 50m SP pilot. None of the tutorials give experience of tackling in any case.

Read the recruitment channels, and many corps have an SP limit in any case so they are not having to help a completely, and truly, brand new player in a pvp situation.

It could be argued that most noobs are actually new alts and the player knows exactly what is required in lo-sec and so doesn't go there until he's got at least some skills so as to have some sort of chance, otherwise he's just cannon fodder.

H

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:38:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: idea
Very nice article but just post by your CCP staff name


And suddenly, everyone thinks everyone is a CCP alt.


Also, this thread has been graced by Chribba's presence. Bow down to your Veldspar overlord now.

idea
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: idea
Very nice article but just post by your CCP staff name


And suddenly, everyone thinks everyone is a CCP alt.


Also, this thread has been graced by Chribba's presence. Bow down to your Veldspar overlord now.

Lols! another CCP staff on standby with his response

Tilux
Caldari
Tri Sol Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:45:00 - [9]
 

What he said is kinda true, when I started playing, I thought I needed a battleship to go in lowsec or nullsec. But I actually managed to go in null sec with my Corp when I was 3 months old, (it was cobalt edge, meh) I learned the rope and went on to live in Querious, Delve, Providence and Period Basis. To get more people in be game, I agree with OP, we need to to get rid of the "oh I need x to go/do y" problem.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
A new player to Eve with only a few days NPC corp activity will probably not even know what 'tackle' means in the context of the game,
Öso he needs other players to show him, teach him, train him, give him advice, and let him test it. The SP is not what determines this ó game experience and knowledge does, just like the OP states.
Quote:
Read the recruitment channels, and many corps have an SP limit in any case so they are not having to help a completely, and truly, brand new player in a pvp situation.
They will still have to, because chances are that he will still be new to pvp situations, no matter the amount of SP. The SP limit has usually more to do with simply judging what the OP is talking about: the age and experience of the player, not the capabilities of the character. A large pool of SP also tends to indicate that the player can support himself and is less likely to need financial aid from the corp.

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: idea
Lols! another CCP staff on standby with his response


Everyone stand back while I feed the troll.

Because if you have read most of what I say on these forums, you can tell I'm a CCP alt alright...

idea
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:51:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: idea
Lols! another CCP staff on standby with his response


Everyone stand back while I feed the troll.

Because if you have read most of what I say on these forums, you can tell I'm a CCP alt alright...

Yumm yumm

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:57:00 - [13]
 

In support of my earlier response to this thread; there's a new thread in Ships and Modules titled "Tackler Options", and the first question the OP asks is 'What does tackling entail?'...

I think that proves my point?

H

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
In support of my earlier response to this thread; there's a new thread in Ships and Modules titled "Tackler Options", and the first question the OP asks is 'What does tackling entail?'...

I think that proves my point?

H


Not at all, they could have 100mil sp and not know what tackling means, having more SP isn't going to teach you anything. Having more EXPERIENCE does teach you things, and being in corps and/or going to low/null fighting is what teaches you and gives you the experience to know what those things are and be able to do them effectively.

A good ship is nothing without a good pilot.

A good pilot is still very deadly even with a bad ship.

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: Hestia Mar
In support of my earlier response to this thread; there's a new thread in Ships and Modules titled "Tackler Options", and the first question the OP asks is 'What does tackling entail?'...

I think that proves my point?

H


Not at all, they could have 100mil sp and not know what tackling means, having more SP isn't going to teach you anything. Having more EXPERIENCE does teach you things, and being in corps and/or going to low/null fighting is what teaches you and gives you the experience to know what those things are and be able to do them effectively.

A good ship is nothing without a good pilot.

A good pilot is still very deadly even with a bad ship.


Lets use a reasoned argument here - they have 100M SP and don't know what tackling is?

Pardon?

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: Hestia Mar
In support of my earlier response to this thread; there's a new thread in Ships and Modules titled "Tackler Options", and the first question the OP asks is 'What does tackling entail?'...

I think that proves my point?

H


Not at all, they could have 100mil sp and not know what tackling means, having more SP isn't going to teach you anything. Having more EXPERIENCE does teach you things, and being in corps and/or going to low/null fighting is what teaches you and gives you the experience to know what those things are and be able to do them effectively.

A good ship is nothing without a good pilot.

A good pilot is still very deadly even with a bad ship.


Lets use a reasoned argument here - they have 100M SP and don't know what tackling is?

Pardon?



Yes, 6 year old bots have no clue what tackling is.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Chribba
I need to log on to play?
No. Twisted Evil


But how else will I acquire massive amounts of veldspar!?!?!?

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:17:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
Lets use a reasoned argument here - they have 100M SP and don't know what tackling is?

Pardon?



What I'm saying is that SP doesn't determine your skill.

At equal skill levels, yes the pilot with more SP will be better, but you don't learn how to effectively tackle/pvp/whatever by staying in hisec and waiting until you can fly a ceptor.

You learn by going to low in frigs and dying a lot. Whatever the reason you died was, you learn not to do that again, so when you do finally get your ceptor, you don't lose it over and over, you know what you're doing by then.

For another example, lets apply this to sports, you can read every book there is about baseball and know everything there is to know about it, but if you can't catch/hit a ball, does any of that even matter?

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:19:00 - [19]
 

I find the greatest problem with EvE is the fact that it is persistent with real loss involvement. That translates to required dedication to the game to maintain your position in the world. Coupled with how long it takes to do anything in this game and it becomes clear that this game is a massive time sink and will not appeal to many players who are just looking for a few hours of fun without any commitments.

Sure, you can do things in EvE that don't require time but lets face it, they're boring and any other MMO does a better job of it.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:23:00 - [20]
 

Most fun position in PvP.
Tackle.

Create character and put enough skills to do the job.
Stop that character training and start another.

You now have a character that every 0.0 alliance would love to see you bring out to play with.
Cost, almost nothing, enjoy.




Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Simetraz
Most fun position in PvP.
Tackle.





Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:29:00 - [22]
 

No such thing as new players. only new alts.

SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:30:00 - [23]
 

I disagree, and its from personal experience. You cannot make money in a t1 frigate in 0.0. It's unpractical, plus a newbie player that is still in a t1 frigate probably has no grasp on basic game concepts that the tutorial gives you (besides the free destroyer).

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:30:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Thornat on 09/08/2011 14:34:03
Originally by: Hestia Mar
Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: Hestia Mar
In support of my earlier response to this thread; there's a new thread in Ships and Modules titled "Tackler Options", and the first question the OP asks is 'What does tackling entail?'...

I think that proves my point?

H


Not at all, they could have 100mil sp and not know what tackling means, having more SP isn't going to teach you anything. Having more EXPERIENCE does teach you things, and being in corps and/or going to low/null fighting is what teaches you and gives you the experience to know what those things are and be able to do them effectively.

A good ship is nothing without a good pilot.

A good pilot is still very deadly even with a bad ship.


Lets use a reasoned argument here - they have 100M SP and don't know what tackling is?

Pardon?



Ok I wasnt going to say anything, but you said it for me.. I was like? If play Eve for that long and you don't know what tackling is, you have either purchased your account, or have been hiding in a hanger avoiding eye contact with the chat box. By than you would have learned the term by accident at least.

Lets kind of try to keep things in perspective here.

I think what the OP is saying in a roundabout way is that an Eve players newbie experience is usually an uncomfortable one in which many misconceptions are formed and either cause them to quit, or if they stay turns those temporary misconceptions into permanent ones. Most of these conceptions are actually fed to them by other players and in this kind of lays at least the source of the problem.

Their is a large portion of the community that does not experience everything that Eve has to offer, but that said I doubt a Pvp player would be interested in sitting in Jitta trading on the market anymore than a trader is interested in PvP. There are many ways to play Eve, the problem is that each type of player either IL legitimizes the other, scorns them or vilifies them. Industrial players living out of hangers treat pirates like A hole thieves, while pirates look down at industrial players like carebear newbs that deserve everything they get with many stereotypes and misconceptions in-between. These sort of rivalries have become the perceptions fed to new players made permanent through personal experience. That perception becomes solidified by the fact that the actions of players confirm this. Industrial players run and hide, PvPers kill and take your stuff. A couple of trash talking experiences and the perception becomes permanent.

Its just an aspect of Eve that, even if it can be kind of ugly sometimes. As a player that has experienced every aspect of Eve (with the exception of more recent features like Wormholes which Iím trying out tonight) I can honestly say that most players in Eve regardless of what professions they persue are generally quite cordial and the perception that Eve players are all a bunch of ruthless bastards or freighter hugging carebears, and everything in-between, is simply nonsensical stereotyping.

The newbie experience can probably be improved by CCP a bit, but breaking the misconception about Eve players and how Eve is played, I think thatís something we are just going to have to live with. Like I said, its part of its charm. Only personal experience can teach you otherwise and unfortunately personal experiences in Eve certainly vary and takes time often too much time for players to stick around.

I don't see how that experiance would be improved by a newbie going out into 0.0 in a T1 frigate. If anything it will further solidify that this is not a place to ever go for any reason.

0.0 is a place you when you are an intermediate or experianced player, at which point you discover you are a newb all over again. Its the next level, not the first level.

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:31:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
No such thing as new players. only new alts.


That accusation is 99.9% accurate.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
I find the greatest problem with EvE is the fact that it is persistent with real loss involvement. That translates to required dedication to the game to maintain your position in the world. Coupled with how long it takes to do anything in this game and it becomes clear that this game is a massive time sink and will not appeal to many players who are just looking for a few hours of fun without any commitments.

Sure, you can do things in EvE that don't require time but lets face it, they're boring and any other MMO does a better job of it.


Entirely correct. And I have never seen EVE being advertised as appealing to such players.

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Thornat
Ok I wasnt going to say anything, but you said it for me.. I was like? If play Eve for that long and you don't know what tackling is, you have either purchased your account, or have been hiding in a hanger avoiding eye contact with the chat box. By than you would have learned the term by accident at least.


The point wasn't that a person had 100mil SP, the point was that no amount of SP teaches you what tackling is. You have to go out and do it or at the VERY least, have someone teach you.

Originally by: SilentSkills
I disagree, and its from personal experience. You cannot make money in a t1 frigate in 0.0. It's unpractical, plus a newbie player that is still in a t1 frigate probably has no grasp on basic game concepts that the tutorial gives you (besides the free destroyer).



And also, the point isn't to make money in a T1 frig, the point is to learn in a T1 frig, so when you get the T2, you don't lose it often and you can make money in it.

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:38:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
I find the greatest problem with EvE is the fact that it is persistent with real loss involvement. That translates to required dedication to the game to maintain your position in the world. Coupled with how long it takes to do anything in this game and it becomes clear that this game is a massive time sink and will not appeal to many players who are just looking for a few hours of fun without any commitments.

Sure, you can do things in EvE that don't require time but lets face it, they're boring and any other MMO does a better job of it.


Entirely correct. And I have never seen EVE being advertised as appealing to such players.


I agree. Eve is a game that will never appeal to a wide audiance, in fact given its membership numbers its actually quite amazing that their are so many people who actually play a game like this.

This is a game of patience and social interaction first. If you come to Eve looking to find a typical MMO you will be sorely disapointed, Eve is a lot of things but typical... hell no. Eve is a raw, human experiance that sucks you in on a personal level. You don't play Eve, you live Eve.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:40:00 - [29]
 

generally OP's idea is ok. However personally i prefer to not recruit newbees into our 0.0 corp. I'm sure every person should start from empire. Because elsewere you loose the game. Mainly if you start from carebear 0.0 corp. Then you simply hide in deep 0.0 space. And after long time you will start to play from begin if you ever try to look around.

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:44:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Cpt Greagor
Originally by: Thornat
Ok I wasnt going to say anything, but you said it for me.. I was like? If play Eve for that long and you don't know what tackling is, you have either purchased your account, or have been hiding in a hanger avoiding eye contact with the chat box. By than you would have learned the term by accident at least.


The point wasn't that a person had 100mil SP, the point was that no amount of SP teaches you what tackling is. You have to go out and do it or at the VERY least, have someone teach you.

Originally by: SilentSkills
I disagree, and its from personal experience. You cannot make money in a t1 frigate in 0.0. It's unpractical, plus a newbie player that is still in a t1 frigate probably has no grasp on basic game concepts that the tutorial gives you (besides the free destroyer).



And also, the point isn't to make money in a T1 frig, the point is to learn in a T1 frig, so when you get the T2, you don't lose it often and you can make money in it.


Well I think what SilentSkills was saying was a two part answer. You cannot make money in a T1 Frigate in 0.0... <---period.... Next setence. "Its Unpractical".

Another words. You can't make money, hence your only going to take losses. You aren't going to live long enough to learn anything... and you are likely to be even more confused since your going out their without even basic concepts, let alone the advanced knowledge just to get around in 0.0 required. I mean imagine jumping into a system and finding a bubble... What does a newbie know about a bubble.. nothing. what does he learn when he goes into 0.0 and see's a bubble.. that you get blown up. What does he gather from this experiance. Don't go into 0.0 if you don't want to get blown up.

The point Im making is telling newbs to get in a frigate to learn how to play Eve in 0.0 is like sending would be soldiers to a war to learn how to fight one.

The only thing you will learn is not to go their, an impression that may very well turn you off of ever going again permenantly.


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