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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:27:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/08/2011 12:27:46
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Ms. Cherry

The Amarr have not only been soundly defeated by the Jovians, you were also, to put it nicely, thrown the hell out of Minmatar space during the Rebellion.


You know full well that it was only a modestly-sized Amarrian fleet that was defeated at Vak'atioth. The Jovians victory there was clearly a phyrric one as they haven't overtly threatened the Empire since then.

Instead, they have resorted to more sinister ways of attempting to usurp rightful divine authority, such as arranging to have a puppet of theirs placed in charge of your Republic.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:02:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Edited by: Odelya d''Hanguest on 10/08/2011 23:12:29
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Your own Empress and Empire are signatories and part of CONCORD laws and organization.
Lady Farel, I am afraid you got it wrong. There is a differentiation between specific types of law, such as divine law, common law and man made law. As I said before CONCORD regulations such as the »Emergency Militia War Powers Act« need to be recognised as a set of auxiliary rules only; they have nothing in common with divine law nor do they take precedence over it.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Does purity equals living in the past or even prehistory ?

If you are a true follower of The Scriptures, then you might consider to also embrace change and evolution, for that they are a tool of knowledge and discovery.

Certain things cannot be changed. What has been ours, will rightfully be ours forever. A man stealing property might possess it, but he won’t be the rightful owner. Even if the majority of people would accept his claim—it doesn’t change a fact. Tell me, what is the reason you support those claims?

Originally by: Lyn Farel
It starts to get disturbing when 'Matari soldiers' are better informed in scripture than the amarrian nobility.
Maybe read the scriptures again? I suggest you pick a few chapters every evening before going to bed—it helps to clear the mind. Humility and fear of God don’t include prostrating before concepts of weakness and adapting a slave morality. You, and people like you, have made yourself foreigners to your people. Don’t you see that your own people turns away form you in shock, terror and frustration? Your denial is only concealed in soft words and declaration of respect. Why do you hate the way of your own people so much? Family issues? Apropos, it’s Khanid nobility…

As much as I would like to continue exchanging insults, I have duties to attend. When I return from the Special Girls Cyberknight Programme I would very much like to discuss with you and Raze (is he upset now?) in person!

With tender and caring regards,
Odelya d'Hanguest
Exalted Cherry Blossom in the Sacred Garden of the Reclaiming


1) Divine law is the law of God, thus laws of the universe. Which means physics and science. Divine law has nothing to do with our current affairs.

2) Everything can be changed, for the simple reason it is the very nature of the universe itself. Are you refering to you owning slaves or defending slavery, when you speak about stolen property ?

3) I do not understand what you are talking about. Except the part where I am a foreigner to my people. Of course I am, if you refer to the Ammatar. If you refer to humanity, I am afraid that the foreigner is only yourself. A propos, I was refering to amarrian nobility in general, not you in particular.

Apparently you admit yourself liking to exchange insults, this is not my case, so if you have duties to attend, please do.

Respectfuly,
Farel.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:48:00 - [33]
 

What...the..hell. I have been too busy shooting down Minmatar scoundrels to keep up with the politics, but how could you leave out both the support you have received from the State!?! While loyal to the Caldari, I have shown my support by helping skilled Amarrian pilots for the past few months. Not only have I participated in numerous territory reclamation fleets but have shot down countless hordes of your nation's enemies!

This level of disrespect, coupled with my need to test those not worthy of flying beside me, is specifically why various Amarrian pilots fall to my guns, CONCORD be damned!

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Karl Planck
What...the..hell. I have been too busy shooting down Minmatar scoundrels to keep up with the politics, but how could you leave out both the support you have received from the State!?! While loyal to the Caldari, I have shown my support by helping skilled Amarrian pilots for the past few months. Not only have I participated in numerous territory reclamation fleets but have shot down countless hordes of your nation's enemies!

This level of disrespect, coupled with my need to test those not worthy of flying beside me, is specifically why various Amarrian pilots fall to my guns, CONCORD be damned!


Fascinating, allow me to educate you.

First, you will notice quite clearly on the announcement that not all pilots and corporations involved were recognized, but that your efforts were nonetheless appreciated. You will also notice that another corporation stated its participation and was later recognized for its efforts.

Second, the only disrespect shown has been by you. You expect praise for your efforts yet turn around and declare that you also engage in acts of piracy against Amarr pilots? The Knightood of the Merciful Crown and the Amarr Empire do not support, condone or praise piracy. Your acts of piracy, which you have publicly confessed to, make you an enemy to those you seek recognition from.

May God have mercy on your soul when judgment comes for you, pirate.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:52:00 - [35]
 

Mr. Planck,

Did mommy not love you enough? Were you scorned and rejected your whole life? Caldari should have more backbone than this.

Also, 85 is hardly "countless" or even really "hordes of minmatar scoundrels." I guess what I am saying is, respect is often given more readily to those who don't demand it. I would certainly be much more inclined to give you a thank you if 1) I had ever heard of yo, and 2) if you had calmly explained that you had been involved. Your petulent whining makes me think you are not a Caldari but in fact a Gallente.

Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:23:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
1) Divine law is the law of God, thus laws of the universe. Which means physics and science.
Oh dear Lyn, divine law is not natural law. It’s independent of our will and cannot be changed.
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Divine law has nothing to do with our current affairs.
"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45


Originally by: Lyn Farel
2) Everything can be changed, for the simple reason it is the very nature of the universe itself. Are you refering to you owning slaves or defending slavery, when you speak about stolen property ?

3) I do not understand what you are talking about. Except the part where I am a foreigner to my people. Of course I am, if you refer to the Ammatar. If you refer to humanity, I am afraid that the foreigner is only yourself. A propos, I was refering to amarrian nobility in general, not you in particular.
2.) Vide supra.

3.) Vide supra.

In bewilderment,
Odelya d’Hanguest
Exalted Cherry Blossom in the Sacred Flower Garden

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:45:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Oh dear Lyn, divine law is not natural law. It’s independent of our will and cannot be changed.


Natural is also independent of our will and cannot be changed. Our understanding of those laws can be reformed however. The same can be said of how Scripture and divine law is interpreted. For who is bold enough to claim full knowledge of the mind and will of God?


Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:27:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Natural is also independent of our will and cannot be changed. Our understanding of those laws can be reformed however. The same can be said of how Scripture and divine law is interpreted.
Mr Jaiga, thank you for your interest in this debate. You are right, natural law is also independent of our will and cannot be changed. I also believe that natural law derives from the Lord. But divine law and natural law are still different realms. Interpreting natural law and direct commandments is a huge difference. In His divine revelation God spoke to His people directly; in creation He speaks only indirectly. But God can also be found in nature. On of my tutors told me: “To be sure, there is need of art and of more exacting toil in order to investigate the motion of the stars, to determine their assigned stations, to measure their intervals, to note their properties. As God’s providence shows itself more explicitly when one observes these, so the mind must rise to a somewhat higher level to look upon his glory… For the excellence of divine art reveals itself in this innumerable and yet distinct and well- ordered variety of the heavenly host.”

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
For who is bold enough to claim full knowledge of the mind and will of God?
I doubt that someone claimed or claims full knowledge of the mind and will of God—and I surely hope that nobody really thinks he can. However, do you need full knowledge of your mind and will when your stomach is empty and you want to eat? Or will you just eat? I don’t need full knowledge to obey. I don’t need knowledge to breath. But I think you’re right, knowledge is a tricky affair, there are different states of understanding. And this brings us to some more questions. A lesser educated peasant from, let's say, Lord Vaari's domain can be a better servant of God than the educated priest, but this is rarely the case since the Lord of all Creation put down His plan wisely and with perfection.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10


How do you interpret this passage? It’s simple, isn’t it? God spoke to our people at a time when things where rough and full of hardship, so he made his message easy to understand, because mankind was (and still is) ignorant and without perfection. Like a father speaks to his children, God spoke to His children, the people of Athra. Nobody can fully understand God (we agree on that, right?), therefore God must have lowered himself to man’s capacity when he spoke to His children.

Many apologies that the original topic was derailed indeed from its original intention. But what could be more important and exalting than a theological debate in a moment of triumphant victory?

Love,
Odelya d’Hanguest
Exalted Cherry Blossom in the Sacred Flower Garden

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.11 20:56:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
But divine law and natural law are still different realms. Interpreting natural law and direct commandments is a huge difference. In His divine revelation God spoke to His people directly; in creation He speaks only indirectly. But God can also be found in nature.

I agree on most points. However, I find that the only difference between natural law and divine law is which area of Creation they are directed towards. In natural law, God has commanded the universe. In divine law, God has commanded the soul.


Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
I doubt that someone claimed or claims full knowledge of the mind and will of God—and I surely hope that nobody really thinks he can. However, do you need full knowledge of your mind and will when your stomach is empty and you want to eat? Or will you just eat? I don’t need full knowledge to obey. I don’t need knowledge to breath. But I think you’re right, knowledge is a tricky affair, there are different states of understanding. And this brings us to some more questions. A lesser educated peasant from, let's say, Lord Vaari's domain can be a better servant of God than the educated priest, but this is rarely the case since the Lord of all Creation put down His plan wisely and with perfection.


I'm afraid I do not understand your analogy between eating and obedience. Whereas one should have full confidence that they should do what is natural in order to keep their body functioning, it would be wise to carefully contemplate before blindly obeying an interpretation of Scripture.

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10


How do you interpret this passage? It’s simple, isn’t it? God spoke to our people at a time when things where rough and full of hardship, so he made his message easy to understand, because mankind was (and still is) ignorant and without perfection. Like a father speaks to his children, God spoke to His children, the people of Athra. Nobody can fully understand God (we agree on that, right?), therefore God must have lowered himself to man’s capacity when he spoke to His children.



It is a simple passage, which in some way mirrors the passage of the Gravest Sin (That is, to know the true path but to not follow it is possibly the gravest sin). But neither of these passages tell us how to believe, not what to believe. A fundamental difference, "what" and "how". I'll just drive to the core of questioning and ask: in which passages is it said that the Amarr race is above all others? This is the concept of otrhodox Amarrian religion which troubles me most.

Thank you for your time, and apologies for further derailing the thread.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.11 20:59:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Originally by: Lyn Farel
1) Divine law is the law of God, thus laws of the universe. Which means physics and science.
Oh dear Lyn, divine law is not natural law. It’s independent of our will and cannot be changed.


I have to admit that I find your way of adressing me a little insulting, unless the word 'dear' used in such a configuration is something natural for you and devoid of any condescending intention, and thus, please forgive my question on the matter.

Back to the subject, Divine law is by essence Natural law, for that God encompasses everything, the Universe and Creation, and thus Natural law can not be changed, unless you become God yourself or superior.

However, the law you quote me out of the Scriptures is not Divine law, but human law, for that Scriptures are a mortal tool subject to changes and flaws, starting with the mere fact that everything translated through language and written words - which are a definitly flawed and unperfect medium - is by definition flawed. The subtle nuance here is about Divine law vs Divine doctrine, the latter being a human tool of interpretation, and the former, Natural law.

Eventually, Scriptures are the very mirror of our own studies, learnings, evolutions, victories and failures.

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Divine law has nothing to do with our current affairs.
[Book of Reclaiming citations]


Vide supra. In any case, I fail to see in these words what gives your own interpretation the supremacy on my own and allows you to call me minded like a slave and weak. I could demonstrate you by a meticulous analysis that your interpretation is at best, hasardous and speculative.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.11 21:16:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 11/08/2011 21:17:43
Originally by: Rek Jaiga
I'll just drive to the core of questioning and ask: in which passages is it said that the Amarr race is above all others? This is the concept of otrhodox Amarrian religion which troubles me most.


Several passages are directly related to this interpretation :

"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.
Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.
The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.
But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God.
Thus they were saved and became God's chosen."
- The Scriptures, Book II 2:1


"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45


And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21



The main issue is deeply rooted in a grave mistake of pure mathematical logic.

As stated in Book II, that if the Amarr were considered God's Chosen, it is because "the sinners were drown in their own blood", at the contrary of the people of Amarr, "that lived righteously and in fear of God". This is the literal explanation of the passage.

The traditionnal interpretation consists in thinking that the Amarr were the only ones "to live righteously and in fear of God". This is a gross and hasardous conclusion, for that Book II tells nothing of that sort, and also does not state that anyone else was a sinner and not God's Chosen either. Thus, every traditionnal interpretation of what came chronologically after in the Scriptures is usually based on an enormous flaw of logic : everyone but Amarr is a sinner, and thus, inferior.

Being superior because one is God Chosen is also another debate. Does being God's Chosen means that you are superior, or merely a guide ?

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.11 23:09:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel


[...]
And those who embrace His love
Shall be saved by his grace
[...]

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45


I of course omitted sections of the passage in order to highlight (what is in my opinion) the most important part of the passage. If those who embrace God are destined to be saved by grace, should they not be treated as equals? For the end result is the same for both the born-Amarr and the Minmatar convert: salvation.

Originally by: Lyn Farel

The main issue is deeply rooted in a grave mistake of pure mathematical logic.

As stated in Book II, that if the Amarr were considered God's Chosen, it is because "the sinners were drown in their own blood", at the contrary of the people of Amarr, "that lived righteously and in fear of God". This is the literal explanation of the passage.

The traditionnal interpretation consists in thinking that the Amarr were the only ones "to live righteously and in fear of God". This is a gross and hasardous conclusion, for that Book II tells nothing of that sort, and also does not state that anyone else was a sinner and not God's Chosen either. Thus, every traditionnal interpretation of what came chronologically after in the Scriptures is usually based on an enormous flaw of logic : everyone but Amarr is a sinner, and thus, inferior.

Being superior because one is God Chosen is also another debate. Does being God's Chosen means that you are superior, or merely a guide ?


I would say that at the time of punishment, when the sinners were drowned in their own blood, that the people of Amarr were considered the only righteous people (that is, the only followers of God). I do not believe that this would exclude any later believer who comes in to the flock, regardless of race. In other words I would hope the Amarr are guides rather than an inherently superior race, for it makes no sense that an omnibenevolent being would choose one people to rule while while casting all other peoples into suffering simply because of their bloodline.

Another question: what of mixed-race individuals? If a True Amarr and Brutor have a child, would the child be regarded as inferior to a pure-blood True Amarr?

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:23:00 - [43]
 

My congratulations!

I'd suggest though, that the unbecoming discussion of Amarrian politics and especially the disrespectful treatment of Scripture by profane citation-battles would cease here. Do it in the proper channels (read: not coram publico) if you must.

Faithfully
N. Mithra

Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.08.12 11:48:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Odelya d''Hanguest on 12/08/2011 11:51:12

Originally by: Lyn Farel
I have to admit that I find your way of adressing me a little insulting, unless the word 'dear' used in such a configuration is something natural for you and devoid of any condescending intention, and thus, please forgive my question on the matter.
Lady Farel, your political and religious viewpoints discountenance me a bit, but I although I never met you in person—I wish I had—you seem to be a creature bestowed with gentleness and tender sweet. That’s why. But people often find me condescending… Why is that? Maybe it’s a rich girl’s burden?
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Back to the subject, Divine law is by essence Natural law, for that God encompasses everything, the Universe and Creation, and thus Natural law can not be changed, unless you become God yourself or superior.
Divine law and natural law have the same source but they are not the same. They are both unchangeable, but different in essence, competence and moral value. A planet circling the star has no moral implication, our calling has.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
[…] Scriptures are a mortal tool subject to changes and flaws, starting with the mere fact that everything translated through language and written words - which are a definitly flawed and unperfect medium - is by definition flawed.
If you really think like this than you deny the possibility and necessity of divine revelation. If the Lord’s will can only be found through individual spiritual philosophies and is always inaccurate than why do you uphold your thesis that exegesis is possible at all? In His unfailing providence the Lord gave us tradition and send down clear guidelines to follow.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Vide supra. In any case, I fail to see in these words what gives your own interpretation the supremacy on my own and allows you to call me minded like a slave and weak. I could demonstrate you by a meticulous analysis that your interpretation is at best, hasardous and speculative.
Please provide this meticulous analysis, I am sure I will hold out against it. And please allow me to say that I find it very fascinating that liberals only stay tolerant towards—how would you call it?—opinions as long as they don’t interfere with the unwritten liberal dogma. There is ›right‹ and ›wrong‹ in your humanist world of thought. But it is not based on the fundament of our faith and life, but on individualist and spiritualistic experience which makes it so dangerous and annoying.

Our initial argument was about the question if the terms of offensive and defensive war are applicable in our conflict with the Minmatar. The Knighthood apparently has a internal debate whether a course of »offensive plexing« should be followed or not. Later Raze Valadeus accused me of contradicting myself and implied that I am showing »hatred, malice, malcontent and disregard«.

I have demonstrated however that my agenda is based on the scriptures (Book of Reclaiming 22:13, 25:10). I will show no mercy towards an enemy that denies our Lord and I will go forth and conquer in His name. Pator belongs to the faithful, not to those who sin against his name. I will not base my action on speculations that one day the population of Pator will happily convert and accept the rule of the Lord and his deputies. No… I will continue to fight for our birthright. Centuries of tradition are with me. I entrust myself to them.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
If those who embrace God are destined to be saved by grace, should they not be treated as equals? For the end result is the same for both the born-Amarr and the Minmatar convert: salvation.
I believe this is true. And it is also based on tradition. We have Udorian heirs today and the most exalted Khanid people is second to none. The Amarr were chosen as a people first, but it isn’t clear if Amarr was a ethnonym at this time or a toponym. It is not important.

Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.08.12 11:51:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
I'd suggest though, that the unbecoming discussion of Amarrian politics and especially the disrespectful treatment of Scripture by profane citation-battles would cease here. Do it in the proper channels (read: not coram publico) if you must.
The most disrespectful treatment of the scriptures I can imagine is public silence. I don’t know where you are from and where you picked up your desire to join your heretical sect, but among the Khanid we have a lively culture of public theological debates. Generations of men and women were educated by them. Obviously you did not attend.

Love,
Odelya
Exalted Cherry Blossom in the Sacred Flower Garden

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 12:57:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 12/08/2011 12:57:57
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
My congratulations!

I'd suggest though, that the unbecoming discussion of Amarrian politics and especially the disrespectful treatment of Scripture by profane citation-battles would cease here. Do it in the proper channels (read: not coram publico) if you must.

Faithfully
N. Mithra


Templar Mithra, I must confess that I agree with lady D'Hanguest : there was a time where theological discussions and the sharing of spiritual ideas was highly appreciated and stimulated. Maybe was it not public, or only semi-public, I do not know, but it is especially in our time a very good occasion to show another face of the Amarr culture.

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Lady Farel, your political and religious viewpoints discountenance me a bit, but I although I never met you in person—I wish I had—you seem to be a creature bestowed with gentleness and tender sweet. That’s why. But people often find me condescending… Why is that? Maybe it’s a rich girl’s burden?


My apologies, I was not refering to my title - for which I do not care much - but to the use you made of 'dear', which strucked me. Probably I should not have. My apologies too if I was unable to answer your call yesterday.

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Divine law and natural law have the same source but they are not the same. They are both unchangeable, but different in essence, competence and moral value. A planet circling the star has no moral implication, our calling has.


As I said above, this is a matter of semantics between us, and I believe that your Divine law is my Divine Doctrine, while my Divine law is your Natural law.

I am a scientist, and while not being a specialised scientist, I am no fanatic, and everything stating that a supernatural being is acting in lieu and place of a the Universe constitues a huge nonsense to my eyes. I consider the Amarrian God as described in the Scripture as a metaphor for the Universe and the Creation themselves, which means the Whole, and eventually incarnates the Truth of everything. God has no morals or no ethics, for that morals are a human subjective concept. With this in mind, Divine law is Natural law in my personnal and spiritual view of things.

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
If you really think like this than you deny the possibility and necessity of divine revelation. If the Lord’s will can only be found through individual spiritual philosophies and is always inaccurate than why do you uphold your thesis that exegesis is possible at all? In His unfailing providence the Lord gave us tradition and send down clear guidelines to follow.


See above : yes, I do not believe in divine revelation in the same meaning you seem to attribute it. Everything related to mortals and human beings is inaccurate. Every subsidiary truth tied to one's personnal views and spiritual paths is unique and different of the others, and most importantly flawed, to the opposite of the unique and only universal Truth at the end of our journey : understanding God, the one and main purpose of the Scriptures.

Of course, this is my belief, considering that the Scriptures are a guide and a growing collection of our knowledge of God, striving to approach the universal Truth, God, thus an ascending theory. It can be opposed to the descending theory more orthodox to the Amarr culture, where scriptures is God's word itself, coming from his own words specifically made to be understood by mortals.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest

Our initial argument was about the question if the terms of offensive and defensive war are applicable in our conflict with the Minmatar. The Knighthood apparently has a internal debate whether a course of »offensive plexing« should be followed or not. Later Raze Valadeus accused me of contradicting myself and implied that I am showing »hatred, malice, malcontent and disregard«.

I have demonstrated however that my agenda is based on the scriptures (Book of Reclaiming 22:13, 25:10). I will show no mercy towards an enemy that denies our Lord and I will go forth and conquer in His name. Pator belongs to the faithful, not to those who sin against his name. I will not base my action on speculations that one day the population of Pator will happily convert and accept the rule of the Lord and his deputies. No… I will continue to fight for our birthright. Centuries of tradition are with me. I entrust myself to them.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
If those who embrace God are destined to be saved by grace, should they not be treated as equals? For the end result is the same for both the born-Amarr and the Minmatar convert: salvation.
I believe this is true. And it is also based on tradition. We have Udorian heirs today and the most exalted Khanid people is second to none. The Amarr were chosen as a people first, but it isn’t clear if Amarr was a ethnonym at this time or a toponym. It is not important.


I apparently did a part of that analysis above, concerning the Amarrian supposed superior status. I can also do it briefly as I did above for the Reclaiming, but you must be corrected before in the fact that the liberal "dogma" that you speak of is based on the same source : the Scriptures, and that the only difference comes from a difference in personnal interpretations.

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13


God gives the destiny of Faith to someone, probably the author of this passage, and obviously an Amarrian. He is to bring the message [of God] to every planet and star in the heavens. Note : the heavens seems to refer to our universe, or New Eden. Then, the Amarr people is told to go forth, conquer in God's name, and reclaim what belongs to the Amarr people and have been given by God to them.

Now then, how to conquer it ? How to reclaim it ? What is the exact meaning of reclaiming ? Reclaiming of the land ? Reclaiming of the hearts ? What is the message to bring ? A dominating war ? Missionaries ? A cultural reclaiming ? Where some liberals like me see a belief in God, which is knowledge, we happen to actually think that a lot of other people already believe in the same thing, in their own flawed ways with their own personnal paths, under different faces and cultures. Thus, these are not the people to reclaim to some liberals eyes. Even more, reclaiming is considered to actually guide the people that do not believe while ensuring the people already believing to pursue their personnal path to enlightement.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10


Here are described the consequences to be expected for the unbeliever. It becomes extremly volatile when applied to all the different interpretations found in the Amarr religion, for that an Ammatar living in a remote world, a traditionnalist Holder living in Aridia, and a noble living on Athra will definitly not share the same views on the universe.

Then we can continue with the rest of the Book of Reclaiming, though it is mostly about further developpements where it is stated that the Amarr belief shall rule the world of heavens.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:16:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 12/08/2011 16:29:30
Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 12/08/2011 16:29:09
Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 12/08/2011 13:17:48
Sisters,

While I removed myself from this conversation earlier because it was not related to the original post and detracts from the congratulatory nature of the original post towards the contributions and efforts of the pilots and corporations involved, if you wish to continue this discussion, I have started a new topic with which to do so. It would be respectful toward the original topic as well as the Scriptures.


Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:43:00 - [49]
 

In the beginning there was sorrow and despair.
The planets revolved in voids of darkness.
The people were without hope.
Then there was Kazzzi, and he was good.
The people saw his goodness and came to him .
They made offerings to him of spiced wine and sweet leaves.
Kazzzi was moved by the people and their affection.
He thus rewarded his flock with delicate sweet pastries.
And the people rejoiced.

-Book of Heathens 69:69



Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.12 19:41:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 12/08/2011 19:42:27
Little Cherry Blossom,

There's nothing against lively and public theological debates. I've nothing against it. Citation-battles in a thread like this aren't public debates though.

Obviously, you didn't learn the basics of proper protocol in regard to treating Scripture.

In regard to whether my sect is heretical or not I rather trust the judgment of the Theology Council and not laity like you. I'm happy to educate you that the Ordo Novus is in full communion with the Amarr orthodox church. But then, a Khanid might easily get confused given all the weird sects they've spawned. But then you're citing some very occult passages yourself - so maybe you can demonstrate their orthodoxy? I certainly hope so.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:45:00 - [51]
 

Quote:
When the ears hear only
The mouth shouting
And the eyes see only
The fingers broken
The world has turned
And God has gone
Left us with fond memories
Of sweet life without pain.


Saikoyu
Amarr
Rho Dynamics
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:59:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/08/2011 12:27:46
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Ms. Cherry

The Amarr have not only been soundly defeated by the Jovians, you were also, to put it nicely, thrown the hell out of Minmatar space during the Rebellion.


You know full well that it was only a modestly-sized Amarrian fleet that was defeated at Vak'atioth. The Jovians victory there was clearly a phyrric one as they haven't overtly threatened the Empire since then.

Instead, they have resorted to more sinister ways of attempting to usurp rightful divine authority, such as arranging to have a puppet of theirs placed in charge of your Republic.




Oh sweet stars...

Admiral Blake, I respectfully suggest that you do not show your faith in God and the Empire in quite these terms. I respect your right to believe in such... interpretations, however it might be best to not air them in public, in case some rogue Jovian decides to hear you and prove their own version of what happened at the Battle of Vak'atioth to you and anyone else within several light-years.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.08.12 23:58:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Odelya d'Hanguest
If the Lord’s will can only be found through individual spiritual philosophies and is always inaccurate.


The will of heaven is not where inaccuracy lies. It is our understanding of that will which must necessarily remain always incomplete, for we are finite entities trying to understand an infinite command. The fairy tales you hold in such high regard are intended to start us on our path, not end it. If you do not rise above finite text, you will remain forever separated from that which you so conspicuously claim to revere.

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.13 08:23:00 - [54]
 

OOC comment removed.

Conventia Underking
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:12:00 - [55]
 

Congratulations to my brothers and sisters in the faith, doing God and the Empress' work, tirelessly and with great effectiveness. The heathens will not prevail and all shall know his glory.

Amarr Victor!

Leopold Caine
Amarr
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:09:00 - [56]
 

Congratulations to the 24th and all the crusaders flying under its banner, and good luck in future ventures on the front.


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