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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.22 16:44:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 22/08/2011 16:34:41
One month to be merely competent with a Rifter, and with no tackle at that.

And folks wonder why so many people try EVE and don't even play out the whole trial period before they get bored with it and go away.


I don't wonder - they quit about the same time the realize they can't buy their way to max level or grind to it in a few days.

What I wonder is why so many people who obviously don't like the game continue to pay for subscriptions and play it.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.22 20:23:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 22/08/2011 16:34:41
One month to be merely competent with a Rifter, and with no tackle at that.

And folks wonder why so many people try EVE and don't even play out the whole trial period before they get bored with it and go away.


I don't wonder - they quit about the same time the realize they can't buy their way to max level or grind to it in a few days.

What I wonder is why so many people who obviously don't like the game continue to pay for subscriptions and play it.

Does the truth hurt so much that you need to lash out at the messenger?

Because it is the truth. EVE was always a hard game to get started in, and changes they've made lately have only made it harder.

If you want to watch your character get better instead of making your character get better, I might suggest Progress Quest as a cheaper alternative to EVE.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.23 10:57:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 23/08/2011 11:23:15
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 22/08/2011 16:34:41
One month to be merely competent with a Rifter, and with no tackle at that.

And folks wonder why so many people try EVE and don't even play out the whole trial period before they get bored with it and go away.


If you have to be at near max skills to be considered "competent" ... then, meh... but don't put words in my mouth.

If you want to be merely "competent" in something, get the certificates and call it done.

Gallente Newbie can have all the relevant certs for "competency" in a Tier 3 frigate as follows:

Rifter - 5d 15h
Tristan - 4d 12h
Kestrel - 4d 15h
Punisher - 4d 18h

"Competency" being defined as "can pilot the ship, and has all recommended certificates for said ship". This puts most of the skills (sans prereqs, if any) at level 2-3.

If you want to use Webs/Scrams/Disruptors/Afterburner (since they're not part of the recommended certificates), add 18 hours (level 3 skills in propulsion Jamming and Afterburner). Microwarpdrives would add 22 hours or so on top of that.

so with L3 MWD/point skills:

Rifter - 7d 5h
Tristan - 6d 2h
Kestrel - 6d 5h
Punisher - 6d 8h

It'll take ~30 days for any ship to take the relevant skills in the certificates/Racial Frigates to level 4 across the board. That's slightly better than "competent"...



Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:26:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 23/08/2011 14:40:00
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 23/08/2011 14:39:48
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 22/08/2011 16:34:41
One month to be merely competent with a Rifter, and with no tackle at that.

And folks wonder why so many people try EVE and don't even play out the whole trial period before they get bored with it and go away.


I don't wonder - they quit about the same time the realize they can't buy their way to max level or grind to it in a few days.

What I wonder is why so many people who obviously don't like the game continue to pay for subscriptions and play it.

Does the truth hurt so much that you need to lash out at the messenger?

Because it is the truth. EVE was always a hard game to get started in, and changes they've made lately have only made it harder.

If you want to watch your character get better instead of making your character get better, I might suggest Progress Quest as a cheaper alternative to EVE.


Imagine that....a nooblet telling a much older character to quit and try a easier game.

Rutilus Pallium
Minmatar
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.23 23:34:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Rutilus Pallium on 23/08/2011 23:34:58
Edited by: Rutilus Pallium on 23/08/2011 23:34:26
Edited by: Rutilus Pallium on 23/08/2011 23:33:56
Originally by: Velicitia
It'll take ~30 days for any ship to take the relevant skills in the certificates/Racial Frigates to level 4 across the board. That's slightly better than "competent"...


And hundreds of days to achieve the skills that give you the additional 2-10% to speed, damage, armor/shield/hull hp and resists, tracking speeds, et cetera. Someone said earlier that in a rifter fight that 5% doesn't matter a lot. In a Hurricane fight, it does.

There's not a plan here that wouldn't imbalance the game and make it a pay-to-win system. But the current system already has huge gaps between the earliest players and the newest, and that gets a bit bigger every day. What can we do? (edit: these are all different ideas, not meant to be put together)

  • Start new players with a fixed number of SP they can assign, or give it to them after they've played a month or two and started to find their niche. A friend of mine suggested this. Just a few million SP, enough to let a player who is starting off feel like they don't have to wait months to get into ships that the rest of us see as basic ships.

  • Allow SP remaps, like we do with attributes now. A certain number of SP per year, or maybe it's a nex or LP store purchase. This would at least let people who trained skills they never needed recover those SPs and use them for something else. How many people who started as real noobs don't have a million SP they could get more use out of?

  • SP as a mission reward maybe? I don't know. Just trying to think out of the box to have a third bullet point. This would mean it's something you have to grind for specifically. If you've bought the ship and fittings and just don't have the skills to fly it, you go do these "learning" missions that reward with SP to accelerate your training.


Actually, I kind of like the last one for something I just made up as filler. It makes you choose whether you get isk or SPs and mean you can't just buy a bunch of plex to build your new cap fleet.

Rutilus Pallium
Minmatar
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:04:00 - [66]
 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of missions that would award SP. It solves the problem of buying a win, but people willing to spend cash on PLEX can still get isk and devote their grind time to SP missions to speed up their training.

Issues:

-I don't know what sort of SP bonus there should be. It would have to be worthwhile without completely overshadowing the need to spend time earning isk. There would have to be a good balance of SP/hour.

-One idea might be to charge isk for starting an SP mission. This makes it an investment and requires something more than just time to fuel it.

-Would it reward points to be assigned, or just add points to skills in the current queue?

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:52:00 - [67]
 

If 5% matters in a hurricane fight, you are a crappy player and allowed someone to put you in a unfavorable position.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.24 09:23:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 24/08/2011 09:25:15
Originally by: foksieloy
If 5% matters in a hurricane fight, you are a crappy player and allowed someone to put you in a unfavorable position.


Pretty much this...

Base 'cane stats:
Struct --> 3516
Armour --> 4688
Shields --> 4297


Assuming you get 5% per level ...
L5 Skills:
Struct --> 4395
Armour --> 5860
Shields --> 5371.25

L4 Skills:
Struct --> 4219.2
Armour --> 5625.6
Shields --> 5156.4

Difference:
Struct --> 175.8
Armour --> 234.4
Shields --> 214.85

Overall difference --> 625.05 (assuming 0% resists). In a decent 'cane, that's what... about 3-6 seconds?

so again, it's down to who got the repair cycle time "right" or who missed a shot or two...

ed -- TBH though, it only takes about 12-14 days to get the armour/structure HP maxxed out (shields is 4d for L5 recharge, and 14d for L5 HP)... you probably did that in the Rifter already... most likely as a prerequisite for something else...

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:04:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 22/08/2011 16:34:41
One month to be merely competent with a Rifter, and with no tackle at that.

And folks wonder why so many people try EVE and don't even play out the whole trial period before they get bored with it and go away.


I don't wonder - they quit about the same time the realize they can't buy their way to max level or grind to it in a few days.

What I wonder is why so many people who obviously don't like the game continue to pay for subscriptions and play it.

Does the truth hurt so much that you need to lash out at the messenger?

Because it is the truth. EVE was always a hard game to get started in, and changes they've made lately have only made it harder.

If you want to watch your character get better instead of making your character get better, I might suggest Progress Quest as a cheaper alternative to EVE.


I'm not "lashing out" at anyone. Certainly not at you. I'm merely stating the source of my confusion, same as you.


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