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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:51:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Lyn Farel
You seem to forget one fundamental fact : the contested regions under CONCORD emergency militia act are a tiny part of the Empire in terms of demographics, and I would even say now, in terms of slave population. The former for the simple reason that they are remote regions, especially the Bleak Lands, and the latter for the reason that a lot of slaves have already been liberated by the TLF itself during several occupations. A lot have been taken back as you say, and a lot have been freed, and a lot have just vanished. Or I think it not too hazardous to assume this is more or less what happens everytime.

In any case, slaves are freed, taken back, no matter their numbers, yes. But in reality, you and the Republic have absolutely no power or capability to make it change for the vast majority of slaves that are living in other parts of the Empire : the parts not included in Devoid or the Bleak Lands. Ultimately, these acts of war where you free slaves here in Devoid and the Bleak Lands by force only help the hardliners cause, and hinders everything else.


I was told that [y]ou believe people were "reclaimed" into slavery when that simply isn't true. I refuted this, and made no other claims.

Various pilots in the Knighthood telling me that the reclaiming of those slaves was justified, for the better of all of us, totally understandable or even not relevant because it's just such a tiny fraction of my people does not change this fact.

The actions of the Knighthood support the reclaiming of my people into slavery. And just like Mr. Blake you all have many reasons for reclaiming my people.

Quote:
But, Mr Sadik admitted that he does not care much about what happens to people not belonging to his own kin, especially the Amarr people. This is definitly and utterly selfish, but he was not ashamed to admit it here.

Something that might make people wonder why he keeps calling us 'bad' or 'monsters' repeatedly, on another note.


"Caring" is such an amusing word. Mr. Blake here has told us repeatedly how much he "cares" for the well-being of my people. Would you prefer me to "care" for your people's well-being like that, too?

And now you seem to want to imply that you "care" for my people almost as much as you "care" for your own, while fighting this war and defending the borders of the Empire in Metropolis. I am sure I "care" about your people that much as well.

I'm simply being honest.

I can only repeat myself: I did not want this war. Still, it is here, and the outcome as it looks right now does not seem particularly rosy, no matter what I would like to happen. Self-delusions aren't going to change that, but I wish you good luck in trying.


The answer is easy :

1) We are not Admiral Blake. Or it would be very disturbing.
2) As I said, I do not care for petty factionalism. I act where I am the most useful.
3) This is not my people. And if we want to play on semantics over ethnies, cultures, and blood, then both Amarr and Minmatar are my people.

Originally by: Saikoyu

Why do you not stop?


As soon as every capsuleer, or a form of authority, accepts to withdraw from the militias and preserve the territorial statu quo, I would be the first one to do it. But it has to be everybody, not just a part of us, or it would be useless and even counterproductive.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:28:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
2) As I said, I do not care for petty factionalism. I act where I am the most useful.


*Arkady Sadik looks amused*

I am looking forward to seeing you in the Minmatar Militia the next time the Amarr occupy some of our systems.

Saikoyu
Amarr
Rho Dynamics
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:48:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel

Originally by: Saikoyu

Why do you not stop?


As soon as every capsuleer, or a form of authority, accepts to withdraw from the militias and preserve the territorial statu quo, I would be the first one to do it. But it has to be everybody, not just a part of us, or it would be useless and even counterproductive.


I would be first, just as soon as everyone else does it with me. Someone must always be first Miss Farel, and then trust that others will follow.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:56:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Saikoyu
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Originally by: Saikoyu

Why do you not stop?


As soon as every capsuleer, or a form of authority, accepts to withdraw from the militias and preserve the territorial statu quo, I would be the first one to do it. But it has to be everybody, not just a part of us, or it would be useless and even counterproductive.


I would be first, just as soon as everyone else does it with me. Someone must always be first Miss Farel, and then trust that others will follow.


While I agree with this sentiment in principle, one must also consider those they are putting faith into. Expecting enough capsuleers to withdraw from the militias to bring everything to a stand still is highly optimistic.

It is far more wise to operate in steps. Focus on maintaining the balance of systems and power long enough that reform, change and even peace can be arranged as the need for it becomes more apparent.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:59:00 - [65]
 

Admiral,

The work of Abel'Jarak was no doubt noble and worthy of respect.

However, it further emphasizes the point I was making. People such as Mister Sadik and Miss Del'thul consider the Amarrian faith a threat to their people and will do whatever they are able to thwart its expansion. Which means that when you say the safest place for a Minmatar is on a secure facility with a Holder, Mister Sadik would say that you are attacking them at their very core, undermining their beliefs and their culture and that means they are least safe.

I am not saying I agree with the viewpoint, I am simply highlighting the nuances of his statement for you.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:14:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
People such as Mister Sadik and Miss Del'thul consider the Amarrian faith a threat to their people


Hm. Difficult. I think I'd go for "you misunderstood me" on this one.

But that depends on what you mean with "the Amarrian faith". It is by far not a single, unified whole. The different groups have different facets of the belief. Some Minmatar follow the belief, and I fully support their right to choose that. I might disagree with their choice, but I fully support that it is their choice, not mine.

Mr. Blake's version of the Amarrian faith would like to remove that choice: Believe in that faith, or suffer the consequence. Be enslaved until you change your mind. If this form of the Amarrian faith is "the Amarrian faith" in your sentence then yes, I think it is a threat.

Sadly, all the different forms of Amarrian faith claim that they are "the" Amarrian faith. The Amarrian culture has very little experience with peaceful coexistence of disagreeing groups. Hence your statement can be a bit misleading.


I would also like to note that there have been few people I have had more disagreements over various topics with than Ms. Del'thul.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:18:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I would also like to note that there have been few people I have had more disagreements over various topics with than Ms. Del'thul.



It's the way of the tribes. Strength from diversity forged into unity by the fires of adversity.
... but yeah, Sadik and I have locked horns once or twice on several matters. We do not agree on much.

That the Empire so effortlessly unites two people like us against it's aggression should speak volumes.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:31:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul

That the Empire so effortlessly unites two people like us against it's aggression should speak volumes.


Predictable response.

The Empire didn't unite you, you did. Honestly, I can understand your opposition to the Empire, but pathetic jabs to try and justify your own viewpoint are tiresome. I could say the same useless line to you, "That the aggression of the Matari against Empire would unite people of such varying degrees and viewpoints should speak volumes."

Mister Sadik,

A valid clarification, thank you for it.

Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:10:00 - [69]
 

I'm somehow not convinced by Pilot Valedeus' arguments about KoMC forces merely "defending" imperial space when I see their ships fighting in Minmatar systems to take control of our space.

At least the PIE slavers are honest.

You people nearly had me believing that there were Amarrians of goodwill who sought change, who sought peace and who could be reasoned with. Oh well. Fool me once...


Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:15:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Anabella Rella
I'm somehow not convinced by Pilot Valedeus' arguments about KoMC forces merely "defending" imperial space when I see their ships fighting in Minmatar systems to take control of our space.

At least the PIE slavers are honest.

You people nearly had me believing that there were Amarrians of goodwill who sought change, who sought peace and who could be reasoned with. Oh well. Fool me once...




I believe I've been misunderstood somewhere, Miss Rella.

I speak only for myself and a few others when I say that we are not taking up the offensive and attempting to control areas of Republic space. I do not speak for the entire Knighthood on that statement.

If you doubt our intention to seek change, a peaceful resolution and reasoning, then I urge you to consider opening dialogue with us so we can answer questions, confront doubts and resolve conflicts. But please do so with the understanding that not every member of the Knighthood operates under the same restrictions and guidelines that myself and others do, I cannot speak for the whole corporation in this matter.

I can only promise you that you will never find me trying to control Republic space for the Empire, the only territories I defend and control are within Amarr Sovereignty.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:20:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Admiral,

The work of Abel'Jarak was no doubt noble and worthy of respect.

However, it further emphasizes the point I was making. People such as Mister Sadik and Miss Del'thul consider the Amarrian faith a threat to their people and will do whatever they are able to thwart its expansion. Which means that when you say the safest place for a Minmatar is on a secure facility with a Holder, Mister Sadik would say that you are attacking them at their very core, undermining their beliefs and their culture and that means they are least safe.

I am not saying I agree with the viewpoint, I am simply highlighting the nuances of his statement for you.


And what about those poor unfortunates who end up with the wrong Voluval mark and are sentenced to a lifetime of suffering?

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:36:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Caellach Marellus
Your wife seems quite the highly strung pilot [insert appropiate rank here] Shutaq, might I suggest one of my own personal alcoholic mixes to calm her mood?


I am quite calm, Mr Marellus. As to your offer of beverages, I decline.

Also, any of: Grandmaster, Divine Commodore, or Lord Shutaq would suffice. Since I doubt you are of the Faith, including Brother in that list would be inappropriate.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:37:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Admiral,

The work of Abel'Jarak was no doubt noble and worthy of respect.

However, it further emphasizes the point I was making. People such as Mister Sadik and Miss Del'thul consider the Amarrian faith a threat to their people and will do whatever they are able to thwart its expansion. Which means that when you say the safest place for a Minmatar is on a secure facility with a Holder, Mister Sadik would say that you are attacking them at their very core, undermining their beliefs and their culture and that means they are least safe.

I am not saying I agree with the viewpoint, I am simply highlighting the nuances of his statement for you.


And what about those poor unfortunates who end up with the wrong Voluval mark and are sentenced to a lifetime of suffering?


Are they any better off than those subject to the cruel and tyrannical heel of a corrupt slave holder?

Yes, I understand that there are many slave holders in the Empire that genuinely care for, provide for and parent their slaves in the direction of righteousness before God. But I would be lying, as would you be, if I did not also acknowledge that there are slave holders in the Empire who brutalize, abuse and mistreat their slaves and the Empire does not hear of every single incident of this occurrence.

The argument here is, "such happenings are the minority." I would suggest that such Voluval marks are also the minority.

You could also argue that the Empire has laws against the abuse and mistreatment of slaves, the Republic has no laws against the practice of making poor Voluval bearers outcasts in the Republic. To this I say, "I don't know what the Republic's laws on the matter are and if it's true that the Republic doesn't have laws against it, then that is between the Matari people and their government."

Those who are outcast from the Matari because of their Voluval can find a home, reformation and guidance within the Empire and from the unfortunate circumstances surrounding their outcast, new hope, life and righteousness can arise.

That's something we can offer, Admiral. That's something good and beneficial we can do as a people with our faith and with resolve and courage. The key in it all is that those outcasts have the choice to accept their Voluval and live as directed them by it and their people or to find a new life and purpose within the Empire and in the faith of God which is all inclusive.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:49:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 10/08/2011 18:05:25
Originally by: Rodj Blake
And what about those poor unfortunates who end up with the wrong Voluval mark and are sentenced to a lifetime of suffering?


I should prefix the following with the statement that I dislike the practice of the Voluval when it comes to bad marks. But I do respect the wish of those who follow that tradition closely, even if I do not agree with them.

I reply here because it gives a great example of two very central differences in the cultures of the Amarr and the Minmatar. Mind you, "cultural differences" rarely mean one is "better" or "worse" than the other - they simply mean it's different.

The first difference is about exclusion vs. inclusion.

The Minmatar culture puts a lot of emphasis on the right of choice for all people. While a "bad mark" is not "good" for the bearer in any way, they are not simply "killed" for it. They have the option to leave their clan and tribe (a cruel fate!) and live elsewhere. This is a repeated pattern in many parts of Minmatar culture. We tend to "exclude" people, but give them the right to be as they wish to be, as long as they do it "elsewhere".

The Amarrian culture in similar contexts prefers to enforce the "right thing", to teach the "misdoers" the "correct way" - they "include" people. While this gives those people some benefits of being within the general society, it means they do not have the choice to be different from this society as long as they do it elswhere.


The second difference is tribalism vs. individualism (incidentally the source of a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to our Gallentean allies).

The Minmatar tend to think in terms of clans before individuals. A clan - a group of people - has the right to decide how they want to live, and no one has the right to tell them how. Members of the clan either follow these common rules, or they seek a different clan (or no clan, though that's painful). You, as an individual, have the choice of association, but you do not have the choice on how to live within that association.

The Amarr tend to think on the individual level, much like the Gallenteans do. It's difficult to explain this, but there was an example in this very thread where I fell for this cultural difference there. Individual members of the Knighthood mentioned that they are not to blame for the actions of other members of the Knighthood - opinions there differ. This is at first a bit confusing for a Minmatar. If you do not understand how, imagine you caught someone shoplifting and his excuse was "oh, that was not me, that was my right hand - the opinions on what is acceptable differ here." You might find that a funny notion, but that's roughly how a Minmatar feels (slightly exaggerated for effect; there are actually children's stories about this group of people called "Partians" who do just that, it's how some of us teach our culture to our children).


So, to sum this up, the "bad marks" are an example of how the Minmatar culture allows a clan to decide on how they want to live together above the individual to tell the clan, but it also allows the individual to decide on whether they want to be part of that clan or not (and the clan whether they want to have an individual part of them or not).

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:55:00 - [75]
 

Arkady just gave as good an explanation of clan vs individual structure as any I have ever heard. If one wishes to understand anything at all about the Matari people, they would do well to really let those words sink in.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:00:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 10/08/2011 18:12:03
Mr. Sadik,

Thank you for that, truly. Despite how much I have spoken with Matari, I admit that my understanding of your culture and motivations often elude me. Your clarification and explanation have enlightened me a great deal.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to explain it understandably.

I must also offer an apology for the misunderstanding of your meaning earlier, I should argue my own standpoint and not the perceived standpoint of another.

EDIT: I would like to clarify one thing, assuming I can clarify rather than further confuse. The Knighthood operates slightly differently than the perception here, I believe. While it takes an official stance on certain things, the things it does not take an official stance on are left up to the individual pilot.

For instance, I do not enter Republic space with the intention to conquer territory or expand the Empire's borders, but that is my own stance, not the Knighthood's. As the Knighthood has not taken an official stance regarding this matter, it is left solely to the discretion of the pilot.

While we may differ on certain topics and areas, we are united in that the things the corporation takes an official stance on, we are all in support of and adhere to.

If I may be somewhat bold here, I daresay that part of the problem the Knighthood is currently facing is that it is now in a position it did not anticipate being in and will need to be taking official stances on a variety of things that it had not previously thought to do so. We shall see where that goes, but as the members each have a voice, the Knighthood will likely reflect the heart of the majority of its members.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:50:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Mitara Newelle on 10/08/2011 18:50:48
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The Minmatar tend to think in terms of clans before individuals. A clan - a group of people - has the right to decide how they want to live, and no one has the right to tell them how. Members of the clan either follow these common rules, or they seek a different clan (or no clan, though that's painful). You, as an individual, have the choice of association, but you do not have the choice on how to live within that association.

The Amarr tend to think on the individual level, much like the Gallenteans do. It's difficult to explain this, but there was an example in this very thread where I fell for this cultural difference there. Individual members of the Knighthood mentioned that they are not to blame for the actions of other members of the Knighthood - opinions there differ. This is at first a bit confusing for a Minmatar. If you do not understand how, imagine you caught someone shoplifting and his excuse was "oh, that was not me, that was my right hand - the opinions on what is acceptable differ here." You might find that a funny notion, but that's roughly how a Minmatar feels (slightly exaggerated for effect; there are actually children's stories about this group of people called "Partians" who do just that, it's how some of us teach our culture to our children).



Your conclusion may apply to the Knighthood, but certainly not the the Empire at large. The description of how your clans work is more accurate than comparing us to the Gallente, except that there is one clan - The Empire. The Faithful. The Word is the Truth and Rule by which we live.

There is only one way -

"Be Careful. Pure Thought is the Instigator of Sin.
Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.
Be Respectful. Uniform Thought is the Way of Life"



Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:10:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Your conclusion may apply to the Knighthood, but certainly not the the Empire at large. The description of how your clans work is more accurate than comparing us to the Gallente, except that there is one clan - The Empire. The Faithful. The Word is the Truth and Rule by which we live.


Thank you for pointing this out. That is, the cultural difference is not so much about tribalism vs. individualism (though I suspect if I call the Empire "tribal" I might cause them to go to war... never mind), but about the inclusion vs. exclusion.

And I do think that is the core of the objection to the Amarrian form of slavery: While they sure are within their rights to declare that some people in the Empire have no rights and must work for others as slaves, what causes objection is that those slaves do not have the right to part ways and live elsewhere.


(Though I suspect there is a much deeper underlying issue in the heart of many Matari which has nothing to do whether slavery is "right" or "wrong": The Empire can be seen as a warring clan or tribe which attacked the "Minmatar Tribe", and the damage caused by that attack must be repaired. But this is covered so deeply beneath the many assumptions and beliefs we have today that it likely won't help resolve the conflict.

Mind you, as far as "resolving the conflict" goes, I am merely an observer from the sidelines. I was not asked when the recent escalation happened, and I do not see why my opinion would suddenly start to matter in the future.)

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:40:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 10/08/2011 20:59:44
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
I would like to clarify one thing, assuming I can clarify rather than further confuse. The Knighthood operates slightly differently than the perception here, I believe. While it takes an official stance on certain things, the things it does not take an official stance on are left up to the individual pilot.

For instance, I do not enter Republic space with the intention to conquer territory or expand the Empire's borders, but that is my own stance, not the Knighthood's. As the Knighthood has not taken an official stance regarding this matter, it is left solely to the discretion of the pilot.

While we may differ on certain topics and areas, we are united in that the things the corporation takes an official stance on, we are all in support of and adhere to.

If I may be somewhat bold here, I daresay that part of the problem the Knighthood is currently facing is that it is now in a position it did not anticipate being in and will need to be taking official stances on a variety of things that it had not previously thought to do so. We shall see where that goes, but as the members each have a voice, the Knighthood will likely reflect the heart of the majority of its members.


This is really the heart of the matter right here. The Knighthood really only tries to control one thing at the moment: who we fire at. This is restricted by our RoE, our wars, and our diplomatic standings. Everything else is really just guidelines and tendencies, restricted only by frowns and smiles from our leadership. We are a collection of individual combat capsuleers who serve and protect the Empire to the best of their abilities and understanding. That is it. Everything else said here has really only been bells and whistles attached to individual ethics and philosophies. Trust me, there is an internal debate going on about this very subject and it is just as heated as the one here.

The current situation did indeed sneak up on us, and our sudden success in this war has brought about plenty of debate, only part of which is here. We are still yet to decide if we should place official restrictions on offensive operations, but despite my personal feelings on the matter, I would very much not like to do so. This would alienate a portion of our pilots and cause internal instability. It is better to keep these pilots in our ranks and convince them of the merits of an exclusively defensive stance than to mandate a set policy, punish breeches of it, and lose members because of it. Besides, do we have the right to tell our pilots they cannot assist fellow Crusaders when they call for help in Minmatar space? It is impossible to enforce something like that.

Now, the moral questions might take greater precedence over the practical ones, if only we knew exactly what our military intends to do should we end up establishing some stable control over Minmatar systems. Will they invade planets at all or merely sustain space superiority? Will they take slaves(this I suspect is still illegal according to CONCORD treaties, despite who occupies a system)? Will they have properly enforced Rules of Engagement that will leave civilian populations untouched? Will our forces take unacceptable casualties? A lack of answers to these most basic questions hinders our formation of a policy on the matter of space-occupation, which is the only thing the Knighthood can influence.

I hope this clears some things up.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:29:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 10/08/2011 21:29:43
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Second, I would urge you to work with those already seeking the same end goals through other methods and efforts, such as the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown.


I'm confused. Your CEO just said in another thread[1] that [T]he Knighthood really only tries to control one thing at the moment: who we fire at. This is restricted by our RoE, our wars, and our diplomatic standings. Everything else is really just guidelines and tendencies, restricted only by frowns and smiles from our leadership. How is that related to the end goals of Saikoyu? (Feel free to reply in the thread above, I do not wish to derail yet another thread with a discussion about the Knighthood ...)


To answer your question Mister Sadik (again, only to the best of my limited abilities),

His comments are in regard to our "in space" operations that you commonly reference as being contradictory to our social operations. The Knighthood, as I stated earlier, has several corporate-wide policies that its members equally espouse upon joining, one of them is the Imperial Rite [of Ascension] (venerating Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I), her emancipation actions and her declaration that the age of slavery is coming to end. This means that, as a whole corporation, we are actively working toward those goals in support of the Empress.

Does this adequately clarify the confusion?

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:31:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
This means that, as a whole corporation, we are actively working toward those goals in support of the Empress.


So, what are you, as a corp, actually doing towards that goal?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:36:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
This means that, as a whole corporation, we are actively working toward those goals in support of the Empress.


So, what are you, as a corp, actually doing towards that goal?


To list only a few things (because most of our actions are from individual contributors each doing what they are able, when they are able):

We continue to push for reform on political policies regarding the institution and practice of slavery.
Our own members do adhere to the same principles and guidelines we seek to institute as a whole. (Lead by example, as it were)
Our headquarters, Mercy's Keep, does not employ slaves at all, only those willing to serve.
Hopefully it's clear by the issues we take stands on that we vocally and vehemently seek the above mentioned goals.

Most of what we accomplish, as I stated, is through individual contributions from our members each using the resources available to them to contribute what they can toward the cause. Also, please understand that change takes time and is a gradual process, one that the Knighthood will continue to push for.

Victoria Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:41:00 - [83]
 

We're also anti-piracy, if that matters to anyone. (And I hope it does; it matters to me.)

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:44:00 - [84]
 

Thanks for the replies.

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Our own members do adhere to the same principles and guidelines we seek to institute as a whole. (Lead by example, as it were)


Does this mean that KotMC pilots are prohibited from owning slaves?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:49:00 - [85]
 

To be honest, I do not know the answer to the question legitimately, so I will see if I can obtain it for you and provide it later.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.10 22:01:00 - [86]
 

Well: a relatively constructive, civil Amarrian/Matari discussion thread.

Color me impressed, pilots.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 22:57:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Lyn Farel
2) As I said, I do not care for petty factionalism. I act where I am the most useful.


*Arkady Sadik looks amused*

I am looking forward to seeing you in the Minmatar Militia the next time the Amarr occupy some of our systems.



Hard to do, sadly, unless with much proper preparative work which would take reasonably a lot of time.

Originally by: Saikoyu
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Originally by: Saikoyu

Why do you not stop?


As soon as every capsuleer, or a form of authority, accepts to withdraw from the militias and preserve the territorial statu quo, I would be the first one to do it. But it has to be everybody, not just a part of us, or it would be useless and even counterproductive.


I would be first, just as soon as everyone else does it with me. Someone must always be first Miss Farel, and then trust that others will follow.


I agree, but I can assure you that what prevents me to do so is that I perfectly know that nobody, or a neglectible bunch of people would follow my move. Which will be totally counter productive. Though if you really want it, I might try it for one month, and if the results are not satisfying, I can still get back into the militia.

Originally by: Anabella Rella
I'm somehow not convinced by Pilot Valedeus' arguments about KoMC forces merely "defending" imperial space when I see their ships fighting in Minmatar systems to take control of our space.

At least the PIE slavers are honest.

You people nearly had me believing that there were Amarrians of goodwill who sought change, who sought peace and who could be reasoned with. Oh well. Fool me once...




As I said several times above and in another thread, lord Valadeus views on the matter and several other KotMC members, myself included, are not representative of the whole order, and me alone directly sharing this view is present in the corporation Council, thus, in minority.

With that in mind, we are perfectly aware that some of our more zealous people are actively reclaiming in minmatar space.

Originally by: Mitara Newelle

Also, any of: Grandmaster, Divine Commodore, or Lord Shutaq would suffice. Since I doubt you are of the Faith, including Brother in that list would be inappropriate.


Oh, this is disturbing. Grandmaster Shutaq looked very upset when I called him Lord on my first days here. Do you really call him that ?

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The Amarr tend to think on the individual level, much like the Gallenteans do. It's difficult to explain this, but there was an example in this very thread where I fell for this cultural difference there. Individual members of the Knighthood mentioned that they are not to blame for the actions of other members of the Knighthood - opinions there differ. This is at first a bit confusing for a Minmatar. If you do not understand how, imagine you caught someone shoplifting and his excuse was "oh, that was not me, that was my right hand - the opinions on what is acceptable differ here." You might find that a funny notion, but that's roughly how a Minmatar feels (slightly exaggerated for effect; there are actually children's stories about this group of people called "Partians" who do just that, it's how some of us teach our culture to our children).


As much as the rest of your theory comforts my own thoughts on the matter, I disagree on this precise part. The Amarr traditionnally think on the individual level about spirituality and personnal religious paths, but the uniformity of the imperial monolith, as some enjoy to call it, actually means that as much as the Amarr tend to enforce "the right thing", as you say, the right hand has to be severely controled. With that in mind, the Knighthood stance on personnal opinions of its members is very gallente. Other than that, similar to the Caldari corporations or the Minmatar clans, the Amarr God and thought comes first. The only difference with the two formers is the fact that there is only one God

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:10:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Thanks for the replies.

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Our own members do adhere to the same principles and guidelines we seek to institute as a whole. (Lead by example, as it were)


Does this mean that KotMC pilots are prohibited from owning slaves?


They are not. Some of the Knighthood Holders are slave owners.

To the question coming next in mind, being "are they enslaved criminals, willingful slaves, or other kinds of slaves", I can not answer.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:33:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Lyn Farel
2) As I said, I do not care for petty factionalism. I act where I am the most useful.


*Arkady Sadik looks amused*

I am looking forward to seeing you in the Minmatar Militia the next time the Amarr occupy some of our systems.



Hard to do, sadly, unless with much proper preparative work which would take reasonably a lot of time.


When the time comes, please feel free to contact me. I am sure I can get you quick employment with one of the militia corporations. There will be no need for major time investments for this from your side.


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